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ElyAs,
On February 15 2015 19:51 ElyAs wrote:Came back from sleep to see this was on. Gonna share my thoughts on what on some posts that I find significant. Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 10:24 Trfel wrote:On February 15 2015 10:22 rsoultin wrote:
Since when are you so confident, Truffle? Remember last game where I opened confidently? I do. It was the game where I was mafia. I really don't like Trfel's post, it is WIFOM as hell. I guess it doesn't mean a lot this early into the game, but why would you post that?
Why do you think I posted that?
On February 15 2015 22:58 zlefin wrote:
I can't explain my reads well, they're only quite mild reads at this point.
For Trfel, it's partly a tonal read, and partly that he's encouraging discussion and trying to get things going. So he's either town, or a well-played (and hence dangerous) scum.
For jarjar, it's just an impression, I can't really explain why.
I actually like this post a lot. It seems very honest and genuine. I don't think that mafia players would be inclined to say that they can't explain their reads. This is tempered by the fact that zlefin is very clear to say that the reads are weak, however at this point in the game it would be foolish to say otherwise (except in extreme circumstances).
I also really like that jarjarbinks used a spreadsheet to test the Bridges method. That is something that I would expect him to do (I would have done it myself if I had the technical ability). Thus, I am more inclined to think that he is town than I was previously.
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Hahaha, that vote count XD
Normal mafia games involve using reads to find the scum. When using RNG lynch, you randomly choose a player to push, and use the reactions to help form reads and find the scum. When using the Bridges method, you are doomed to fail unless you use the reads (largely based on the actions people take for switches) to find the scum. The downside with the Bridges method is that the material that players have to work with is extremely limited, which means that at best it results in a normal mafia game with less content.
I will be out for the afternoon.
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I'm back.
Hier, really not liking the OMGUS. Really not liking it at all. Doesn't make you mafia, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it, either.
Also, Hier, I don't believe that we are going to be following your Bridges plan this game. Whether or not it is a good strategy, it won't work unless people agree to use it, and I believe that at the moment, you are the only one who wants to use it. While I appreciate you sharing the strategy with us, and it is very interesting, and I will definitely try to use people's reactions to it to help discern people's alignments, I don't think that we will actually be using it this game unless it gathers significantly more support in the near future.
Zlefin, votes don't always mean that you want to lynch someone right now. Votes can be used for pressure, or to make a statement. Using my vote in a larger variety of ways is something that I need to improve on, since I usually only wait until later in the day and then vote who I want to see lynched. I could be better about using my vote to gather information.
Rsoultin, I like the push.
I just got back, I'll have more detailed thoughts in a bit after I reread the thread.
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On February 16 2015 07:32 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 01:16 rsoultin wrote:
So I have a problem with you, Hier.
First you're nitpicking a post that has already been corrected xP Bad form.
Second, while I find your little set-up thing interesting (read: a concept I haven't seen put into practice before) it has flaws. Namely, it puts everything on auto-pilot and actually makes it less likely for people to do any work or analysis unless they're the ones on the block. Yuck. Admittedly I could still see a townie bringing up the idea and thinking it's good.
Third, and most damning...all you've done all game is blather on about setting up an automated circle lynch. Got any reads, Hier? Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 03:11 rsoultin wrote:I'll poke silverarte. Also, Trfel, same thought on JJB's post. JJB, can you show me how you arrived at the 47% number? I'm not as good at math but I can at least verify that it's valid when I see it in front of me.  Not as quick to read Hiel...hie...whatever his name is lol >< as town, though. Throwing things into a random number generator and drawing an (MSpaint?) graphic isn't exactly a ton of work, and he's done nothing to show that he cares about finding scum. Maybe when he comes back he'll change my mind. Pretty simple there, Hier. Now where are those reads?
Uh, are you reading the thread?
He made it pretty clear that he is scumreading you.
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Oh, and for those who don't know, when I say that I will read the thread and then come back, please don't hold your breath. I am possibly the slowest mafia player ever, so even rereading a small number of pages like this will probably take me at least an hour (probably more). Rsoultin can attest to this.
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Oh, and can we get any final consensus as to whether or not we are going to be using the Bridges method in this game? I think that we ought to settle that once and for all before we proceed.
Given the responses currently in the thread, it seems like the answer is that we will not use it?
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On February 16 2015 07:50 Hier wrote:
Trfel:
It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it.
Can you please explain to me how it is good for town if one player is playing by the Bridges method and all of the other players are playing as they normally would?
That just seems like the players would be forced to ignore the player following the Bridges method, while that player avoids partaking in the discussion and gameplay.
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On February 16 2015 07:58 Hier wrote:
Trfel:
As as I said, if you have the slightest town read on me, support the model. This will entice others to join.
My read on you and my support (or lack thereof) for the Bridges model are completely unrelated.
I have stated why I don't think that the Bridges model is a good idea, and while I will take another look at it and your response, I don't think that you have said anything that changes my opinion. If you can't convince anyone else to follow your model, I would expect you to not follow it for this game (regardless of whether or not you still think it is a good method). Unless of course you can explain how it is good for town if one player follows the Bridges method and no one else does.
If we don't use your method in this game, I'm sure you can discuss it after the game and potentially use it in a future game. That doesn't mean that it will never see use.
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Rsoultin...
This is a newbie game. I think it would be a bit more appropriate if you pushed your scumreads a little less aggressively? The first scumread in newbie games tends to get upset and stop playing the game. Obviously, that is not ideal, regardless of their alignment.
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On February 16 2015 08:18 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 08:14 Trfel wrote:
Rsoultin...
This is a newbie game. I think it would be a bit more appropriate if you pushed your scumreads a little less aggressively? The first scumread in newbie games tends to get upset and stop playing the game. Obviously, that is not ideal, regardless of their alignment. >> Lol, fair enough. Though you do realize this is actually tame for me, yeah? xP
It felt about normal to me. If you were pushing me, I wouldn't even blink (based on your tone, I might be surprised by your reasoning....). If this was a normal game, it would not be a problem at all, but for a newbie game, I just think it's better to err on the side of caution.
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On February 16 2015 08:22 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 08:19 Trfel wrote:On February 16 2015 08:18 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 08:14 Trfel wrote:
Rsoultin...
This is a newbie game. I think it would be a bit more appropriate if you pushed your scumreads a little less aggressively? The first scumread in newbie games tends to get upset and stop playing the game. Obviously, that is not ideal, regardless of their alignment. >> Lol, fair enough. Though you do realize this is actually tame for me, yeah? xP It felt about normal to me. If you were pushing me, I wouldn't even blink (based on your tone, I might be surprised by your reasoning....). If this was a normal game, it would not be a problem at all, but for a newbie game, I just think it's better to err on the side of caution. Heh, if you've got other criticisms, Trfel, do make them. You're hinting, after all.
I'm refraining from coming down on either side of this until I go back through the thread.
While I do like your initiative to push Hier, and I don't particularly like his response, I'm also not sure that I like the way that you are pushing him. I'm thinking something here, but I don't think it is wise to say it. If I am right, then you know why I shouldn't say it at this time.
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If you are mafia, you can consider me sucessfully pocketed. 
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Argh, the typo.... I want to edit that so badly........... (goes to cry in the corner)
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Hrm. Rsoultin, see what I mean? You're too scary.
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The Shining, I will do so after I finish reading the thread. I reiterate, this takes me an extremely long time, so far I'm at two hours. Maybe it would go faster if I didn't keep reloading the thread and posting while I was reading...
Anyway, ElyAs, thanks for answering my question.
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Ahhh, I need to get dinner, and I haven't finished reading the thread yet... Point made, I am the slowest reader ever.
More thoughts will come after dinner. For now, I will talk about the Bridges method.
I think that it is a bad idea to use the Bridges method in this game. The main reason for this is that so far, seven players have commented on it (all except for Silverarte and Mimeux/replacement), and six of them seem to have said that they don't think it is a good method (jarjarbinks is the only player who I might be misinterpreting here, though). The only one clearly in favor of it is its creator, Hier.
That said, I still think that it is a suboptimal way to play the game. My reasons for this have been stated many times, by myself and others. Therefore, I do not think that we will be using the method in this game, and I expect everyone to agree with this, since we need to work together.
Hier, it seems to me that your reason for creating the Bridges method is to make the game more objective, and more based on logic instead of guesswork. Mafia can, and often is, played with the focus on logic instead of randomly guessing. Cases involving logical arguments are extremely powerful.
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On February 16 2015 09:29 jarjarbinks wrote:
Rsoultin: Do you actually believe Hier is scum or do you just disapprove of his idea? Town can be wrong right?
Maybe next game you can be mother hen xD lol
Town can never be wrong. Your statement is wrong, so you are scum.
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The reason that I posted yet again about the Bridges method is because Hier is still supporting it. I want to decide conclusively if we are going to use it or not, because we absolutely cannot proceed if we don't know how we are going to be playing the game. We seem to be clearly on the same page, and we will NOT use the method, so that is settled.
The Shining, your point would have validity if I didn't eventually get through reading the thread and checking people to the extent that I would like. However, since I fully intend to do that, the few minutes I spent typing that post are largely irrelevant.
I am also suspicious of Hier at this point. His proposing the Bridges method does not really seem to be mafia motivated, and his defense of it seems to be genuine, but he really hasn't done anything that scum coudn't do. While putting himself in the spotlight isn't something that mafia!Hier would really want, it isn't that unexpected, either. In my one game as mafia, I put myself in the spotlight early on.
I don't like how Hier has attempted to defend his method, but has not answered questions pertaining to its biggest flaws.
However, Hier's counter push on rsoultin actually isn't terrible. Rsoultin's view on Hier did change somewhat, and it is standard to explain yourself when you start a wagon.
On February 16 2015 07:32 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 01:16 rsoultin wrote:
So I have a problem with you, Hier.
First you're nitpicking a post that has already been corrected xP Bad form.
Second, while I find your little set-up thing interesting (read: a concept I haven't seen put into practice before) it has flaws. Namely, it puts everything on auto-pilot and actually makes it less likely for people to do any work or analysis unless they're the ones on the block. Yuck. Admittedly I could still see a townie bringing up the idea and thinking it's good.
Third, and most damning...all you've done all game is blather on about setting up an automated circle lynch. Got any reads, Hier? Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 03:11 rsoultin wrote:I'll poke silverarte. Also, Trfel, same thought on JJB's post. JJB, can you show me how you arrived at the 47% number? I'm not as good at math but I can at least verify that it's valid when I see it in front of me. Not as quick to read Hiel...hie...whatever his name is lol >< as town, though. Throwing things into a random number generator and drawing an (MSpaint?) graphic isn't exactly a ton of work, and he's done nothing to show that he cares about finding scum. Maybe when he comes back he'll change my mind. Pretty simple there, Hier. Now where are those reads?
On February 01 2015 04:59 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 04:52 Trfel wrote:On February 01 2015 04:49 rsoultin wrote:On February 01 2015 04:45 Half the Sky wrote:On February 01 2015 04:42 rsoultin wrote:
If this is truly the best case, this thread needs life support xP
Daaaammmdred. You're not helping yourself here exactly...you aren't particularly assertive this game. At all. This is my fourth game with you so I am qualified here to say that something isn't quite right. Step it up m'lady. ##unvote
##vote Rasputin Ya know, I do kinda get where y'all get the misconception that I'm always aggressive, but I actually need something hitting me in the face to want to chase after. I'm not seeing that. And I'm really not understanding where anyone else is seeing it, either. Not going to just RNG someone to tunnel to satisfy y'all's expectations of my "bulldog" reputation, thank you much. I still don't know why have (or at least think you have) a tunneling reputation. Your play seems fine to me. But you really aren't scumreading anyone at this point? Lol, it sounds bad and I should just throw out names to appease the masses, but I'm not seeing it. Your entrance has been better. Others are just question marks. I'm not certain about several people, including Damdred, SL and Robik...Palmar for me would be a policy lynch though the vets are calling it a meta read... But as for strong lynch them now scum, no. For reference, the first quote is from Linux Mini Mafia, in which rsoultin was town. I believe I have made my point, though. While it is certainly poor for Hiel to have no reads other than the rsoultin scumread, it is still possible to come from town.
I'm not going to townread Hier for his Bridges scheme, and I don't believe that his play since then has been very impressive. There is a fair chance that he is scum, but at the moment I don't want to jump on it.
I don't really see the case on zlefin. He hasn't done anything remarkable, but he hasn't done anything scummy, either. Mentioning policy lynching is normally considered a scummy thing to do, but in my experience it is null. People always yell at the first player to suggest policy lynching, and they often end up being town.
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My comment about mafia!rsoultin having me pocketed was only partially a joke. It was more of a safety mechanism, so to speak.
To explain, rsoultin and I appear to be thinking in rather similar ways at the moment (if not acting in identical manners). Thus, I am inclined to think that she is town. The reason that I directly acknowledged that is to ensure that I don't townread rsoultin too strongly. If I want to solidly defend her, my comment ensured that I will need to find reasons in addition to her push on Hier.
There's a very good chance that what I just said makes no sense to anyone but me. Oh well.
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On February 16 2015 12:11 The Shining wrote:
...shining says he hates walls of text.
Shining posts wall of text.
Lmao I'm scum reading myself gg
Hate to break it to you, my playstyle is walls of text. Though in my last several games, I've definitely fallen too far to the "unreadable wall of text" side. I can show you plenty of horrid "wall of text" posts that I have made as town, and compared to them, this last post I made was nothing at all.
My stance on Hier was actually taken quite carefully. Before I decide to vote him or let him slide for the moment, I want to see his thoughts on the events in the thread since he last left, particularly avoiding the validity or lack thereof of the Bridges method.
I guess he would be my biggest scumread at the moment, since I am too lazy to read filters and make my own scumread (bad Trfel). ElyAs will probably be my first filter dive.
I may not be here for End of Day... ugh.
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EPT
