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On January 13 2015 00:30 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 00:25 Palmar wrote:On January 12 2015 23:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Your case on GB was most curious Don't know what you mean by curious. It's super townie if you know how brains work. If I am mafia, I already know GB's alignment, so why would I bother with the whole "start out piling some scum points on him, pretend to read more, then completely flip my conclusion and call him town".Like I'm not good enough at scum to do that. Now obviously you can argue this, but I'd think that because I have perfect information as mafia, I wouldn't have bothered with the whole changing my mind in the middle of the post/filter read. I think I'd rather have tried to strengthen whichever conclusion I wanted to reach by mostly citing examples pointing in that one direction.Stopping mid-filter when I feel confident he's town after questioning some of his early stuff, is something not many mafia would do. You're absolutely self-aware enough to do this Palmar. C'mon.
You think more of my scumplay than I do.
Maybe I am? I do admit I like to go for the contradictory play when I'm mafia (ie: shoot the people who call me town and then go "I'D BE INSANE TO SHOOT MY ONLY SUPPORTER!!!!!")
Which reminds me, I'd be crazy to shoot DP who actually had brains enough to call me town (I think he did).
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Like ask yourself deep within marv.
If you are town, and I am mafia. Why are you alive today?
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On January 13 2015 00:41 marvellosity wrote:
You know I can't possibly answer that question...
Well you can theorize, and use recent evidence (where I WAS mafia, and you WERE town, and I wanted to shoot you despite knowing it could lose us the game if the wrong person got checked, because that's how I sure I was that you were a theat).
And yes, maybe.
There are 5 mafia in that voting list and I know at least 3 townies are on the geript wagon.
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Jesus Artanis, you fucked up the formatting, now this will be a pita to respond to.
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On January 13 2015 00:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 00:25 Palmar wrote:Because the closest thing in the thread to an actual accusation, I'm just going to respond to Artanis' poem. Also, he's one of the people I want most to actually talk to, because he's basically stayed away from me throughout the game (it feels like, at least, I've interacted with vivax, gb, marv, sl etc, but him I've sorta never talked to). On January 12 2015 23:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Your case on GB was most curious Don't know what you mean by curious. It's super townie if you know how brains work. If I am mafia, I already know GB's alignment, so why would I bother with the whole "start out piling some scum points on him, pretend to read more, then completely flip my conclusion and call him town". Like I'm not good enough at scum to do that. Now obviously you can argue this, but I'd think that because I have perfect information as mafia, I wouldn't have bothered with the whole changing my mind in the middle of the post/filter read. I think I'd rather have tried to strengthen whichever conclusion I wanted to reach by mostly citing examples pointing in that one direction. Stopping mid-filter when I feel confident he's town after questioning some of his early stuff, is something not many mafia would do. I've expanded on this in an earlier post. It feels to me like you arbitrarily decided he was town halfway through the case when you couldn't find enough to incriminate him with a fairly meaningless post in "I suspect half the players". I find it hard to imagine that you find it hard to imagine for a scum player to say it as much as to go from scumreading to townreading someone, especially after you criticized him for creating a fake tone earlier. After that you suddenly view his posts in a townie light and do a decent job at that, which I suspect is because you know his alignment. I don't doubt that it could be forged.
Obviously we're going to disagree on this one.
Here's the thing, I am trying to explain what I did when I went for GB. I sort of admit I actually went into his filter, or shortly after reading the first few posts (which I criticized) expecting to find mafia. Then I basically ran into post after post where I actually thought he looked really town.
Like I _think_ I am not capable of faking this kind of a 180 mid-filter. Maybe I am, but why bother with the scum-stuff to begin with. Like at this point of the game, he's a vaguely viable lynch target later.
Also, just for later days, if you end up lynching me. After I posted my "gb is town" thing, he said something like "the buddying is real", which basically confirms him as town. He is always going to flip town this game.
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On January 13 2015 00:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 23:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
And your case against Damdred dubious What do you think of Damdred? Do you disagree that he's played this game very much in the background? He's not taken any kind of a leadership role in town and even now, with just a handful of players remaining, almost nothing he has written really stands out. Sure, voting superbia on day 2 builds the case for him being town somewhat (also, remember, I didn't know superbia was mafia when I wrote my stuff on Damdred, as he hadn't flipped). But it all depends on whether or not we think superbia actually had a real chance to die that day. Also, I cba checking, but was geript firmly in the lead? or was Vivax right there? We may have to check that. I think you're right in that he's mostly been in the background. He's been a question mark for me most of the game. He played a good Day 1 where he drew conclusions (albeit the wrong ones initially, town on ritoky/scum on Dr.H), asked a lot of questions and seemed to be on the hunt for information. On Day 2 he was on the right lynch as well but he hasn't been very impactful, no, and that leaves him in the question mark area. He was the second person to get on Superbia after me when there was no idea if it was going to take off or not.
The reason he's a question mark for you and literally everyone else in the game,is that Damdred hasn't said or done anything of value throughout the game.
Asking questions with no intention of followup isn't at all townie.
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On January 13 2015 00:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2014 20:52 Palmar wrote:On January 12 2015 23:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
You helped lynch Geript, a member of our town So what? Being wrong on my first target happens all the time. Weren't you on his wagon too? I made a case, I believed in it, geript's non-response made me want to go through with it. Do you doubt that I believed geript was mafia? Or at least he had a good chance of being one? Of course I doubt it, because I think there's a good chance you're scum. I was on the wagon reluctantly because I felt he was a better lynch than Vivax and it looked like Superbia wasn't going to get lynched when I went to bed.
Chicken and egg bro.
If you decide I'm mafia and then look at my actions through that lens, we're gonna have a bad time.
You should first go read my push on geript, responses to it etc, and THEN you should decide if I am mafia because of it. You cannot scumhunt backwards. That's called guessing.
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On January 13 2015 00:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 00:34 Palmar wrote:On January 13 2015 00:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Palmar, you were very clear in that Marv should townread you after your defense. What meta read do you believe he has on you and why did you say he should already have a townread on you to begin with?
Also, you stated before that Marv was 100% scum, then you said later that Marv should read you as town whether he's town or scum implying that you do in fact doubt your read on him. Why and where did that happen? Marv is the big x factor this game. At 2-3 occasions I've basically jumped up "aha, marv must be mafia", but then he keeps being reasonable and I can't convince myself he's 100% mafia. Like he does some weird things, but comes back to sound reasonable again. He reacted almost exactly the way I did to the ritoky claim (ie: we get the counterclaim, we lynch whoever is less believable). The last time I started thinking he might be town was when he posted this: On January 08 2015 20:10 marvellosity wrote:On January 08 2015 20:03 Palmar wrote:On January 08 2015 19:54 DarthPunk wrote:On January 08 2015 19:49 Palmar wrote:On January 08 2015 19:36 DarthPunk wrote:The following posts both look garbage to me. Very wishy-washy, and I can't seem to empathize with the conclusions he does draw. Palmar, admits himself that he has a strong day one but these posts feel fake and obligatory. On December 31 2014 20:52 Palmar wrote:
Btw, as I'm probably going to be mostly unavailable today (it's new year's eve... why did we even start?). I'll just throw out very much not curated thoughts I had while reading up to like page... 16?
I'll catch up with the rest later.
geript is sort of scummy in some respects. I have no idea why 20 minutes into the game he started wishing for random people to be there to talk to him. Also, everything he says is sort of... too clean? not dumb enough? I don't know how to describe it and it's just a feeling based on memory, I haven't gone back and re-read, so I'd need to confirm.
Eden came off strong and he said something I thought was really dumb.
DrH is probably town, and he had a post that made me feel good about that read.
Damdred is probably town too. He too has a post I can't remember that made me think "oh that looks like a townie".
Koshi overreacting on this page (21) to DrH's dismissal of koshi's defense was kinda mafia. Idk though.
I should probably just sheep marv and lynch him if he's wrong. That's always a fine strategy.
Remember, these reads I'm just throwing out literally from memory of having read like 4-6 pages this morning. Don't pretend these are some concrete observations. Then he tunnels geript for a bit and does nothing I really like. This post seems more likely to come from scum at the start of the game also, just because scum are more likely to feel demotivated early in my experience, conversely a townie who believes he has caught scum is much less likely to feel demotivated. On January 02 2015 20:37 Palmar wrote:
I'm really demotivated to even play now. Probably gonna just afk through the night and see if I turn up dead or not.
If I am alive I might just park my vote on Robik out of spite and never change it for playing terribly. You have to read in context. I wanted to lynch geript. I got a wagon going on geript, when I went to sleep geript was the leading candidate for a lynch. However when I woke up town had voteswitched on to batsnacks (and not Vivax as I had suggested) and killed him. This led me to being extremely frustrated as I didn't even know people were considering batsnacks as a lynch target and I had read batsnacks as town. Cool, so why were your first large posts on day one such wishy-washy inconclusive garbage when you are known for having strong day ones and I personally think you are an excellent player? What benefit did you wish to gain by creating that list post? why did you call DrH probably town? They're not inconclusive garbage. In fact, me hedging half my calls with wording like "very slight leaning town read" is probably the biggest tell that I am town this game. However I also wouldn't expect just about anyone to understand that. It's basically me trying not to be wrong, or if I am wrong have something to point to "hey look, I told you I just called him town for this small thing, not my fault he didn't end up being town". If I was mafia I'd be far more confident in my reads, or so I think, at least. And the list post was basically me trying to do useful stuff. I decided to punch in what I was thinking at that point in the game. and I already explained why I called DrH town. this post is reasonable. I can't remember who it was but there was a game recently where someone made this long, terrible case on me, quoting a bunch of posts where i'm umming and ahhing. Because it's 100% true, it's a very reasonable post by me, and marv takes it as such. The only sort-of-weird thing is that DP was much quicker to pick up on how amazing that post was than marv, which might mean marv was parroting him, might mean MARV NOT READ SO GOOD TAKE TIME, or maybe he just wasn't around. But yeah, I see no scenario, even if I'm cop checked green that I'm leading a lynch on marv today. I think, by far, the best target is Damdred, and I have to read Vivax and LM. I keep forgetting LM actually exists, which sometimes means people are mafia. I'm curious how you have an opinion on Damdred but not on Lazer, whom Damdred has been talking about ever since Superbia died.
I tend to not make associative reads. I dislike them in general although I do somewhat use them sometimes. Damdred has been talking about LAzer since day 1 actually, he wanted to kill him I think.
Also, I could be wrong about Damdred.
The point is, in order to have a read on Lazer, I'll have to go read HIS filter, not Damdred's. I'll try to do it this cycle, but probably not until tomorrow in real time.
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On January 13 2015 00:58 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 00:51 Palmar wrote:On January 13 2015 00:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On January 13 2015 00:25 Palmar wrote:Because the closest thing in the thread to an actual accusation, I'm just going to respond to Artanis' poem. Also, he's one of the people I want most to actually talk to, because he's basically stayed away from me throughout the game (it feels like, at least, I've interacted with vivax, gb, marv, sl etc, but him I've sorta never talked to). On January 12 2015 23:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Your case on GB was most curious Don't know what you mean by curious. It's super townie if you know how brains work. If I am mafia, I already know GB's alignment, so why would I bother with the whole "start out piling some scum points on him, pretend to read more, then completely flip my conclusion and call him town". Like I'm not good enough at scum to do that. Now obviously you can argue this, but I'd think that because I have perfect information as mafia, I wouldn't have bothered with the whole changing my mind in the middle of the post/filter read. I think I'd rather have tried to strengthen whichever conclusion I wanted to reach by mostly citing examples pointing in that one direction. Stopping mid-filter when I feel confident he's town after questioning some of his early stuff, is something not many mafia would do. I've expanded on this in an earlier post. It feels to me like you arbitrarily decided he was town halfway through the case when you couldn't find enough to incriminate him with a fairly meaningless post in "I suspect half the players". I find it hard to imagine that you find it hard to imagine for a scum player to say it as much as to go from scumreading to townreading someone, especially after you criticized him for creating a fake tone earlier. After that you suddenly view his posts in a townie light and do a decent job at that, which I suspect is because you know his alignment. I don't doubt that it could be forged. Obviously we're going to disagree on this one. Here's the thing, I am trying to explain what I did when I went for GB. I sort of admit I actually went into his filter, or shortly after reading the first few posts (which I criticized) expecting to find mafia. Then I basically ran into post after post where I actually thought he looked really town. Like I _think_ I am not capable of faking this kind of a 180 mid-filter. Maybe I am, but why bother with the scum-stuff to begin with. Like at this point of the game, he's a vaguely viable lynch target later. Also, just for later days, if you end up lynching me. After I posted my "gb is town" thing, he said something like "the buddying is real", which basically confirms him as town. He is always going to flip town this game. Obviously if you're scum you want as many potential lynch targets as you can which would explain starting with trying to paint him off scummy. Reading through his filter, you figured TownPalmar would not be able to justify scumreading him so you changed your intent to look townie instead.As for GB always being town, that depends. If you're scum, I agree. If you're town however, I can see a scum GB being cheeky and making comments like that. With how often he's done it this game it could definitely be a deliberate strategy.
So you believe that
a) I read his filter attentively
b) I actually changed my mind
And that I'm still mafia?
I don't know how to argue with this...
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Like I appreciate you trying Artanis, but all your posts basically first assume I'm mafia, then explain my actions to fit that theory.
That's not gonna work.
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On January 05 2015 09:17 Damdred wrote:
Lynch superbia the anger at the cop claim is so bad do it vote him
Actually I hadn't seen this post, just like with GB I stopped a few pages into his filter when I had what I felt like a conclusion.
This makes me doubt my Damdred read because I noticed exactly the same thing.
On January 08 2015 04:58 Palmar wrote:
Like I was wrong on geript. I'm partly mad at myself being wrong because I read him again and there were definitely signs that he was town that I ignored. I'm also partly mad at geript for being completely shit when about to be lynched. Like I had more respect for him as a player than to think he'd go down without giving us something to work with.
IMO it's the responsibility of people who are being targeted for a lynch to step up and actually do things. Because it reveals the reasons people are on their wagons, and can often help filter townies from mafia on town wagons.
So after I got him lynched I seriously lost most of my motivation for the game. I feel like I have no dots to connect and that I'm lynching blindly into a bunch of people that could possibly be mafia. Hell even my two townreads from day 1, artanis and drh, now feel like they could very well be mafia.
The lynch today is probably either gb or ritoky (please don't lynch sicklucker, there's just less chance he does something like he did as mafia. Like I don't think he's gutsy enough to do the whole claiming shenanigans as mafia). Both of them could be mafia, and I'm sure on neither. I don't even know which one to go after.
If marv is mafia, which I highly suspect, based on that one post he made in the night, then that doesn't even say much, because with both these targets, marv has soft pushed them and then not done anything with it (ritoky on day 1 and gb on day 2). JAT was about the only player this game I sort of enjoyed interacting with, but that's probably more on me than anyone else. Well I guess I like Vivax too.
If Vivax is mafia I'll just applaud the effort. I've liked a bunch of stuff he has posted.
I've also ignored laz0r because of the sicklucker thing on day 2 and I just haven't had the cares to catch up on him. I probably should.
Someone in this game got really mad at something at some point that I thought was really strange. It might have been superbia, but idk. Maybe we should lynch him? What happened to people wanting to lynch superbia?
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On January 13 2015 01:04 marvellosity wrote:
Palmar do you understand how your play this game hasn't really fitted into either your usual town or mafia frameworks?
Yes, sort of.
In fact, on the surface there is one trait that (can be reasonably explained) that should make me 100% mafia this game by a certain metric I know you use.
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On January 13 2015 01:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 00:53 Palmar wrote:On January 13 2015 00:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On January 12 2015 23:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
And your case against Damdred dubious What do you think of Damdred? Do you disagree that he's played this game very much in the background? He's not taken any kind of a leadership role in town and even now, with just a handful of players remaining, almost nothing he has written really stands out. Sure, voting superbia on day 2 builds the case for him being town somewhat (also, remember, I didn't know superbia was mafia when I wrote my stuff on Damdred, as he hadn't flipped). But it all depends on whether or not we think superbia actually had a real chance to die that day. Also, I cba checking, but was geript firmly in the lead? or was Vivax right there? We may have to check that. I think you're right in that he's mostly been in the background. He's been a question mark for me most of the game. He played a good Day 1 where he drew conclusions (albeit the wrong ones initially, town on ritoky/scum on Dr.H), asked a lot of questions and seemed to be on the hunt for information. On Day 2 he was on the right lynch as well but he hasn't been very impactful, no, and that leaves him in the question mark area. He was the second person to get on Superbia after me when there was no idea if it was going to take off or not. The reason he's a question mark for you and literally everyone else in the game,is that Damdred hasn't said or done anything of value throughout the game. Asking questions with no intention of followup isn't at all townie. Like Marv said, he's pushed Superbia on D2 and he's been pushing LM ever since. Speaking of which, I'd still like to hear your opinion on LM. I'd also like examples of questions from Damdred that you feel were pointless or without followup.
I need to read LM's filter.
The examples of Damdred's weird questions were in my big post on him. Do you really need me to dig it up for you?
On January 13 2015 01:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 00:57 Palmar wrote:On January 13 2015 00:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 31 2014 20:52 Palmar wrote:On January 12 2015 23:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
You helped lynch Geript, a member of our town So what? Being wrong on my first target happens all the time. Weren't you on his wagon too? I made a case, I believed in it, geript's non-response made me want to go through with it. Do you doubt that I believed geript was mafia? Or at least he had a good chance of being one? Of course I doubt it, because I think there's a good chance you're scum. I was on the wagon reluctantly because I felt he was a better lynch than Vivax and it looked like Superbia wasn't going to get lynched when I went to bed. Chicken and egg bro. If you decide I'm mafia and then look at my actions through that lens, we're gonna have a bad time. You should first go read my push on geript, responses to it etc, and THEN you should decide if I am mafia because of it. You cannot scumhunt backwards. That's called guessing. I always feel like there's two narratives for every person; a Town narrative and a Scum narrative. If you try hard enough either can fit. The problem is that with your filter and approach to the game I feel a scum narrative is more likely to be the case. I'm trying out both lenses but to confront you with the town narrative for your actions wouldn't really help establish my read on you any better.
Well fine, as long as you actually accept my answers and reconsider if now maybe the town narrative fits.
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On January 13 2015 01:08 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 01:04 marvellosity wrote:
Palmar do you understand how your play this game hasn't really fitted into either your usual town or mafia frameworks? Yes, sort of. In fact, on the surface there is one trait that (can be reasonably explained) that should make me 100% mafia this game by a certain metric I know you use.
Like this is almost fun.
Here's a hint: I actually give hardly any fucks this game.
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On March 27 2014 08:11 marvellosity wrote:
Mainly Palmar is not playing the game at all. He has 6 pages of filter, but he's literally not playing. The big problem is that he is pretending to play. You'll find quotes littered from me across various games giving 3 scenarios for Palmar:
1) he tries hard and he is productive. He is town.
2) he blatantly doesn't give a shit and doesn't hide the fact he is not productive. He is town.
3) he looks like he's playing the game a bit but in reality is unproductive. He is mafia.
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reverse mafia: why do I best fit 3) and am still town this game?
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On January 13 2015 01:19 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 01:12 Palmar wrote:On January 13 2015 01:08 Palmar wrote:On January 13 2015 01:04 marvellosity wrote:
Palmar do you understand how your play this game hasn't really fitted into either your usual town or mafia frameworks? Yes, sort of. In fact, on the surface there is one trait that (can be reasonably explained) that should make me 100% mafia this game by a certain metric I know you use. Like this is almost fun. Here's a hint: I actually give hardly any fucks this game. yup, and that's the townside. it's the half-hearted, intermittent giving of fucks that is more the issue. oddly to anyone else i guess.
Yeah, I get that.
Now the big question is, can you actually figure out why this might be? 
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I could tell you, but that would ruin the game.
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On January 13 2015 01:21 marvellosity wrote:
is the answer going to be illuminatingly alignment indicative in some way?
Maybe.
Well it's going to explain exactly the behavior you described (because I am self-aware enough to know how I've played this game).
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EPT
