EPTI'll go look at your case first, it'll probably take less time than a 20-pg filter dive
World Heavyweight Championship mafia III - Page 178
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
I'll go look at your case first, it'll probably take less time than a 20-pg filter dive | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
Here's where I first voiced significant Hf suspicion as far as I can remember kush and I talk about it for pages afterward, much fighting ensues | ||
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ObiWanShinobi
United States8089 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On August 11 2014 13:00 Holyflare wrote: Also he doesn't look pressured to give reads or do anything but sheep who he thinks is right First of all when he sheeped today he way overjustified it, which I pointed out not too long ago. Secondly, sheeping is exactly what scum have been able to do freely all game, if you haven't noticed. Anyway I'll give Showdown a glance but it won't be right now. I'm gonna take a break. Eden, goes for you too, I'll read your examples a little later. If I'm not back in a little bit I will at least attempt to post some on lunch tomorrow or maybe phonepost (unlikely) if I get the chance. | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
Now we in lylo? Damn. Looks like I was wrong on pooft then. I would say hf have a decent chance to be scum now ttht I don't feel any town pull from him. Nothing screams 'sheep me you fools' | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
Time would be well spent deciding how we're going to achieve a unanimous decision. Ideally a town leader and/or primary lynch target can be named by whoever dies tonight via a last minute before deadline ninjapost. Everyone with any chance of dying should make something like this... There's a few ways to implement this this is how I'd do it. Whatever we do tho we need to establish /towncircle and force sheeping. There's not room for error anymore. Goodnight and good luck. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
1. Bullying argument - I agree with the observation, I figured it wasn't worth arguing when it happened (if you'll check, I'm the person he's saying that to). As you can see, it obviously didn't help, because my concerns certainly weren't assuaged by his belligerent insistence on his towniness, and here we are. This is a similar argument (not the same though) to the confidence-accuracy discrepancy argument I made earlier, I think. At least, it comes from the same place: it's someone who's trying to push people into doing what he wants. I hate having to dip into meta because I'm pretty sure there's a non-meta argument for that being scummy, I'm just not finding the words. But I have one brief exposure to Holyflare before that, the more I think about it, is pretty illuminating. He subbed into Melee Mini Mafia on n2 as town. He demonstrably worked much harder to prove his case than he did here. There's a clear interest in persuading people to go along with him here that's absent in the "bullying" posts from him throughout the game. It's still a hard argument, because you would think that he would be equally motivated to be convincing as scum or town, right? But in my own past experience across multiple different communities, even when there's a clear incentive for scum and town to be convincing, town are overwhelmingly more likely to be concerned with it. I think it's because they don't have all the answers, and so they're more motivated to find them. 2. "Back pocket" reads - agree not sure I need to elaborate more on it. Might be worth noting that one of those you identified even in your cursory list (Artanis, replaced by Onegu) flipped town. 3. "Taking credit" argument - I don't remember him doing this a whole lot other than the example you mentioned. It certainly happened there and it's certainly false, and it probably reinforces the confidence-accuracy discrepancy, because it's part of him building himself up as having all the answers (confidence) despite the fact that the results (accuracy) say otherwise. But I don't think it's all that prevalent? Maybe you could develop this further and show it though. 4. "Buddying marv" observations - My best attempt to summarize them. Agreed, it's just hard to put a lot of stock into this since marv was 'buddying' (or the equivalent) pretty hard onto Holyflare too. At one point in the argument I linked earlier marv comes in and basically tells us all to stop because it's unproductive. (To my own weakness I did stop around that point.) I also want to develop that specific example I cited from before. It's kind of superficially amusing actually, both games Holyflare accuses Poofter of busing a scum partner, both games Poofter flips town (or "flips," Poofter survived the other one). Here's where it gets significant: both times people ask him "hey Holyflare, why is this a bus? I don't get this at all" or something to that extent. In Melee Mini, where he was town, he writes HUGE paragraphs with cited examples and all that clearly try hard to convince the audience that yes, Poofter was scum busing. Here? "Lol duh it's a free ticket to endgame noob how do u not see this scum." Like he's not at all interested in convincing me that his reasoning made sense. Sure some of it is because it's already happened and catching mafia off of it (assuming he were town) is unlikely, but at the same time where were these explanations when he was arguing it and getting quizzical responses during the day? Where's the same level of effort? It's just not there. And it hasn't been all game, tell the truth - sure he's pushed fairly hard on his targets, but the level of thoroughness, attention to detail and depth is lacking. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On August 11 2014 13:16 goodkarma wrote: With this next lynch we're going to literally need unanimous townpile onto a scum wagon. The only way I really see that happening is /sheeping. Time would be well spent deciding how we're going to achieve a unanimous decision. Ideally a town leader and/or primary lynch target can be named by whoever dies tonight via a last minute before deadline ninjapost. Everyone with any chance of dying should make something like this... There's a few ways to implement this this is how I'd do it. Whatever we do tho we need to establish /towncircle and force sheeping. There's not room for error anymore. Goodnight and good luck. ^^^^^ SCUMPILE. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
Holy shit I felt a lot better | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
Omg | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
GOODKARMA: Who should we make the CEO of /towncircle Co. for the rest of the game? Also be sure to name two successors since our leader(s) will surely be killed off. Actually name 3 since that's how many nightkills the mafia have before we win | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On August 11 2014 13:11 HaruRH wrote: I just woke up. Now we in lylo? Damn. Looks like I was wrong on pooft then. I would say hf have a decent chance to be scum now ttht I don't feel any town pull from him. Nothing screams 'sheep me you fools' Does anything scream "sheep me you fools" instead? Cause... I think I'm finally getting somewhere | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On August 11 2014 13:53 Eden1892 wrote: Fine, I'll bite. GOODKARMA: Who should we make the CEO of /towncircle Co. for the rest of the game? Also be sure to name two successors since our leader(s) will surely be killed off. Actually name 3 since that's how many nightkills the mafia have before we win Do you seriously think we stand a snowflake's prayer in hell of getting through this game without ensuring everyone consolidates? What I suggested is one way to ensure a non-scum influenced lynch. There's enough scummy people in this game right now that we're very unlikely to go 3 for 3 otherwise. Otherwise scum just goes "yeah this guy looks scummy," steers a lynch, and we lose gg. As it is, it's a very hard battle. I kinda doubt we recover and win this. But /sheep is the best thing we can do. And if you /sheep the dude who just died, you guarantee a townie-led lynch. And if you have that dude post the desired lynch target just before deadline, scum nightkill couldn't have possibly been influenced by directing a mislynch based on people's reads. There's no doubt other ways to go about this, but I like mine the bestest. If you want to come up with your own method feel free to, but I'd encourage you to think up something instead of berating me and fast. It's pretty clear you're going pants-on-head right now. Quite honestly, if you're going to be super-bad and disregard any suggestions to ensure some semblance of consolidation and as a result, ensure we lose, I really don't have the energy to argue right now. I can't be bothered to dive in and solve this game anything I say will probably get ignored anyway. People have this super-stupid idea that if you don't post a ton you don't have anything meaningful to say. And so we get caught up in this shit-post war when anything off the top of your mind gets thrown onto paper and posted. It doesn't do anyone any favors, makes the game unreadable, and hurts town. This is probably my last game for at least a while. It was nowhere near this bad before, and I honestly can't understand how it ever got this way. Only playing limited post games if I play in the future 20+ page shitfilters aren't worth my time. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
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gobbledydook
Australia2602 Posts
On August 11 2014 14:23 goodkarma wrote: Do you seriously think we stand a snowflake's prayer in hell of getting through this game without ensuring everyone consolidates? What I suggested is one way to ensure a non-scum influenced lynch. There's enough scummy people in this game right now that we're very unlikely to go 3 for 3 otherwise. Otherwise scum just goes "yeah this guy looks scummy," steers a lynch, and we lose gg. As it is, it's a very hard battle. I kinda doubt we recover and win this. But /sheep is the best thing we can do. And if you /sheep the dude who just died, you guarantee a townie-led lynch. And if you have that dude post the desired lynch target just before deadline, scum nightkill couldn't have possibly been influenced by directing a mislynch based on people's reads. There's no doubt other ways to go about this, but I like mine the bestest. If you want to come up with your own method feel free to, but I'd encourage you to think up something instead of berating me and fast. It's pretty clear you're going pants-on-head right now. Quite honestly, if you're going to be super-bad and disregard any suggestions to ensure some semblance of consolidation and as a result, ensure we lose, I really don't have the energy to argue right now. I can't be bothered to dive in and solve this game anything I say will probably get ignored anyway. People have this super-stupid idea that if you don't post a ton you don't have anything meaningful to say. And so we get caught up in this shit-post war when anything off the top of your mind gets thrown onto paper and posted. It doesn't do anyone any favors, makes the game unreadable, and hurts town. This is probably my last game for at least a while. It was nowhere near this bad before, and I honestly can't understand how it ever got this way. Only playing limited post games if I play in the future 20+ page shitfilters aren't worth my time. I don't get your logic at all, confirmed town isn't any more likely to be right than unconfirmed town. Instead of blindly sheeping confirmed town, instead we must use logic and reasoning to deduce the 3 scums. | ||
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ObiWanShinobi
United States8089 Posts
On August 11 2014 15:40 gobbledydook wrote: I don't get your logic at all, confirmed town isn't any more likely to be right than unconfirmed town. Instead of blindly sheeping confirmed town, instead we must use logic and reasoning to deduce the 3 scums. I'm so glad we killed Vivax over you. | ||
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justanothertownie
16317 Posts
On August 11 2014 10:29 Eden1892 wrote: OK but seriously now let's get to work. My new scum list is Holyflare, justanothertownie and goodkarma. I am almost positive I'm the nightkill tonight so I'm not even going to bother being coy or bullshitting around with fake reads trying not to bait a nightkill. It's not happening. I'm going down and I'm going to get out my reads and keep rereading to see what I think before the end. Why them? Holyflare has no reason to be alive right now. He was the only "townie" who had any direction on day 1 and organized a last-minute lynch, and kush got nightkilled instead of him. Kush was obvious town, but Holyflare was generally in the town pile for everyone too, and unlike kush Holyflare was a direct threat to get people lynched. Then marv gets killed last night, and while marv was also in everyone's town pile (and Holyflare wasn't as much anymore), marv had been straight up wrong on both lynches and Adkins out the whole night. The one time he really took charge and showed direction he was off. This kill makes some sense to me over Holyflare but not really; I feel like if we assume Holyflare is town he's played a better game than marv. In any case he's going to survive tonight while I, a townie who until this point had no meaningful direction in the thread, die. And that's not going to make sense, and if I don't say something now people will go "oh, no surprise there, Eden was obvtown, Holyflare lemme sheep u 2 victory" and we'll lose. Furthermore, I've called attention to it on a couple of occasions this game - Holyflare's strength of conviction in his arguments is entirely disproportionate to their strength. The most notable instance was his insistence that both Poofter and gobble were likely to flip scum, even though they had both been scumreading the hell out of each other from midway through day 1. I've been hesitant about this point to an extent because it's been in doubt; after all it had been possible that both flipped scum and Holyflare is actually some godmode town savant genius. But we now know he was wrong, and in retrospect, it's pretty fucking obvious that he was wrong. Finally... kush had to be right about somebody, don't you think? At least one player. And who were the two he was harping on? gobbledydook and Holyflare. gobble has been on everyone's scum radar for days now, nightkilling kush wouldn't do anything to save gobble. Holyflare is the only player kush was calling out and being virtually alone in doing so. THAT is why kush was nightkilled, and why we MUST kill Holyflare tomorrow. It's not the strongest case in the whole wide world, and I'm sure Holyflare will yell and berate and whine and hurl abuse at me and everyone who's sympathetic to this argument until it dies down, just like the last couple of times. Resist this. Do not give in. You will likely see his loyal lieutenant, justanothertownie, following through. They've been lockstep for most of the game and Holyflare has been wrong and will flip scum. Obviously the two of them are pushing the scum agenda together, and they've been wildly successful thus far. But they won't succeed anymore. Don't let them. Finally there's goodkarma. I'm partially sheeping Wave on this one, but the fact that both Holyflare and justanothertownie have hard-confirmed him town off of a weak meta read from Showdown mafia is super sketchy now that I know they're both mafia. And yeah, I signed off on it earlier. Big deal. I was wrong then and I'm right now. goodkarma has lurked like crazy and like Wave said, he's doing a lot of hedging and explaining for someone who's sheeping, and I feel like his arguments have been pretty weak when he's bothered to explain his reads. I'll go do a more complete filter read to see if I still agree with this when I'm done but I'm pretty confident in it right now. goodkarma also fits excellently as the final mafia because you already have Holyflare and justanothertownie pushing the scum agenda. goodkarma is the perfect third member stylistically; no one will be shocked that he's not nightkilled since he's not trying very hard at all this game, and Holyflare and justanothertownie combined have enough thread presence (before we launch our coup right here and hurl them off their balconies) to deflect any lurker lynches onto some of you lame-ass motherfuckers taking days off at a time. Speaking of, STOP DOING THAT SHIT! WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR IT! We're going to need every single one of y'all to step up and lynch these guys three in a row if we're gonna win. It's majority lynch and you KNOW the mafia won't miss a vote. Every single one of you needs to keep stepping up. Haru was super town today, good job, keep it up. Wave is coming alive, keep shaking off the cobwebs and pushing. Obi... man I'm fuckin thrilled! I get to be friends with Cav because we're both town and he's fuckin spot on with Holyflare this game! Keep it up! And gobble, bro, I know it's hard getting scumread the whole game as a townie but keep pushing what you believe and stay pure, my friend. I'm confident in all of you as townreads at this point. I've seen something from every one of you at some point this game that's made me think "Yep, you're town," and at the core all of these reads just feel right in the gut. One day I'll look back and either laugh at myself for being terribly wrong or be self-aware enough to understand why my reads were right despite my inability to explain them, but in the here and now I've got no choice, when my other scumhunting skills have failed me this game, to run with the reads I'm feeling in my heart and hope that they're enough. We can still do this guys, even if -- when -- I'm dead in the morning. Let's get it! There is nothing LITERALLY NOTHING in this post that suggests I am scum. Wtf are you doing Eden? Your only reason for calling me scum is that I agreed a lot with HF. On August 11 2014 10:46 Holyflare wrote: haru was by far and large NOT super town today, he said he would be super spammy haru making cases on everyone and then after all that he made one post on gobble that had nothing scummy in it whatsoever and then gave up and got bored and played league of legends instead And I still agree with him. I have no idea why you think Harus day was super town. On August 11 2014 12:31 ObiWanShinobi wrote: I reserve the right to not read anything that you're saying and kill you anyway. I hope to god you aren't town if you are being serious here. We just lost a game where some idiot didn't think in LYLO. On August 11 2014 12:46 Eden1892 wrote: You're gonna have to explain this for me because my interpretation of it (a) probably isn't fair and (b) is that this is terrible. Who cares if it is fair. I want to win this game. On August 11 2014 12:58 Holyflare wrote: I'm gonna go to bed. Honestly think it's probably haru and then I'm at a loss for who else. Yes, I have trouble seeing a scumteam without him. On August 11 2014 13:11 HaruRH wrote: I just woke up. Now we in lylo? Damn. Looks like I was wrong on pooft then. I would say hf have a decent chance to be scum now ttht I don't feel any town pull from him. Nothing screams 'sheep me you fools' "Now we in lylo?" Like it is a surprise? Wtf. How is this guy towny? On August 11 2014 13:16 goodkarma wrote: With this next lynch we're going to literally need unanimous townpile onto a scum wagon. The only way I really see that happening is /sheeping. Time would be well spent deciding how we're going to achieve a unanimous decision. Ideally a town leader and/or primary lynch target can be named by whoever dies tonight via a last minute before deadline ninjapost. Everyone with any chance of dying should make something like this... There's a few ways to implement this this is how I'd do it. Whatever we do tho we need to establish /towncircle and force sheeping. There's not room for error anymore. Goodnight and good luck. This sounds good in theory but the problem here is that scum can just kill a townie who is wrong and bam, game over. This is NOT protown. On August 11 2014 13:45 Eden1892 wrote: Dude I'm gonna flip 50 shits if I was actually right on all 3 of them Omg Let me assure you that you are not. On August 11 2014 12:42 WaveofShadow wrote: Townreads I understand: Eden, JAT, (me? I still think your trap was weak and reading people based on it is meh but whatevs), gobble (sorta---this is one of those things that I never went back and truly thought about when Poofter/GK mentioned it...is there some sort of way with the voting patterns that GD could still be scum? that worries me) Don't understand townread on GK, and Cav I just dunno. I like Wave more and more as town. | ||
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justanothertownie
16317 Posts
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