• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 23:02
CET 05:02
KST 13:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT18Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book16Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0224LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)46Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker16
StarCraft 2
General
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Team League Season 10
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth
Brood War
General
TvZ is the most complete match up BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ladder maps - how we can make blizz update them? Gypsy to Korea Brood War inspired Terran vs Zerg cinematic – feed
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread Diablo 2 thread Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Search For Meaning in Vi…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2230 users

Normal Mini Mafia LVI - Page 11

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 Next All
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:04 GMT
#1514
On June 27 2014 07:02 Chezinu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 06:59 Lazermonkey wrote:
On June 27 2014 06:59 Chezinu wrote:
On June 27 2014 06:50 Lazermonkey wrote:
On June 27 2014 06:40 Chezinu wrote:
On June 26 2014 23:21 Koshi wrote:
Wait. Chezinu did you get a goon result from LM? Because that actually means he is town. You lied about the check right?

I just realized that a goon check is most likely a frame job. Scum can't look like a goon. Unless the framer frames himself or gf like a goon. I can't believe 3 powerroles vs 1 powerrole in a normal mini. 3 vs 2 is normal.

I never said I got goon back. I'm not even a cop. lol I just know things like... art is medic. When someone hands Chezinu a awesome role to pretend to be.. I couldn't resist... Sorry for pulling a Caller on you guys.

Also, sorry for taking a while to respond. Twas busy today.

Holy fuck...

Lynch this dude please...

##Unvote
##Vote: Chez

LOL

The luxuries of being confirmed town

Am I missing something? When were you confirmed town?


Beginning of game, everyone said I was town. Then Art confirmed me town before he died.

##Unvote
GG my memory is OP
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:08 GMT
#1517
Okay, for reals. Why are you guys still voting me. Its Koshi/Release thats cool to kill now.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:12 GMT
#1523
YKZ, you are such an amazing person.

##Vote: Koshi
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:15 GMT
#1525
On June 27 2014 07:12 Snickers wrote:
Ok can you all help me out here. I am having a hard time trying ot figure out what is happening. If everyone could post just the name of the person and where thye think they stand, it would save alot of confusion. Also at the end state who your are currently voting for since no vote updates have happened? YKZ mostly did this above but left out the vote.

Chezinu fake-claimed so I don't have a red check on myself. Therefore, you should unvote me. The list for people that we are allowed to chose from (to kill) is

-Release
-Koshi
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:16 GMT
#1527
On June 27 2014 07:13 slOosh wrote:
Do you understand what insane means, herr doktor?

Ow, please SlOosh. So you really think I'm THAT fucking scummy that you'd rely on the fact that you got framed last night?
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:18 GMT
#1530
Snickers. The brain. Use it.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:32 GMT
#1536
I like how everyone yesterday was like: Oww, I dunno who is scum between Lazer/YKZ/Koshi. Then today I get a GREEN CHECK on myself but still it is suddenly clear as fuck that I am scum. I understand that there are explanations for a greencheck on scum but its still unlikely.

SlOosh, you said yesterday that you'd rather kill YKZ than me. I called you out for it, you refused to answer. Why do you want to kill me?
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:34 GMT
#1537
I mean, holy fuck. Scum must be laughing their asses off watching how town gladly kills off their green check.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:41 GMT
#1540
On June 27 2014 07:37 slOosh wrote:
Yes, me personally. As in, if I was given day vig powers I'd shoot YKZ. But the game of mafia doesn't work that way. I think it's better to lynch you, then tackle the final boss YKZ after that.

I mean, I also have a green check but you spend all your time arguing with Release how he shouldn't be reading me as town? Please Lazermonkey, just get lynched quietly.

Yes, because his reasoning sucked. Understanding Release motives are key to understand his alignment. Also note that I didn't want to lynch you. Like, its fine if you suspect me and shit. My problem is that you think that I am THE BEST lynch target out of everyone, despite me getting a green check on myself. Despite me not being your number 1 scum read.

Explain why its better to kill me before YKZ...
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:45 GMT
#1541
I have looked alot into SlOosh lately. Just check my filter. His recent post is so insanely fucked up that I don't even know what to say. The green check on him does, however, make him look slightly better. But just ever so slightly. I'm actually leaning more towards Release atm. He disapeared at a VERY convenient moment...
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 22:55 GMT
#1543
And everyone is gone...
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:02 GMT
#1546
On June 27 2014 07:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 07:55 Lazermonkey wrote:
And everyone is gone...


Well, if it's just you and me, LM, do you have any questions or directions for me? You've seen my read list and you know what I'm thinking about, and I promise to 100% not ignore your input if you flip town.

I think the list is good. The only thing is that atm I'm not sure Koshi is the best lynch. Release and SlOosh recent actions make them look really bad. I would probably say that Release is on par with Koshi for best lynch with SlOosh slightly behind.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:04 GMT
#1548
On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM?

Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot.

So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip.

At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input).

Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post.

You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God"
Yhea, getting people lycnhed is totally not something town would want to do.. Owait.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:08 GMT
#1552
On June 27 2014 08:06 Snickers wrote:
So did I post my reads too soon? Owell hopefully we got another medic to protect me. Anyway this game would be alot easier if town played well. And seriously when are you guys going to read the rules. There could be two medics.

There could be. But this is a 12 player game. There are seldom more than 2 power roles and 2 medics is strong as fuck. Given that at least one scum is a goon its insanely unlikely that there are more than one medic.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:09 GMT
#1553
On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:
On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:
On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM?

Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot.

So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip.

At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input).

Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post.

You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God"


So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here?

Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other.

it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ)

Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 08:04 Lazermonkey wrote:
On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:
On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM?

Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot.

So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip.

At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input).

Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post.

You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God"
Yhea, getting people lycnhed is totally not something town would want to do.. Owait.

"someone" as in not necessarily mafia. Would you have preferred me to say "anyone?"

No, there are plenty of people that I haven't even been close to wanting to kill this game.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:16 GMT
#1557
On June 27 2014 08:12 Snickers wrote:
OK everyone that is in this thread at this moment. Anwser this for me please. What is the likliness that all of scum voted together day one. If Lazer flips town, that is why I think release is scum. Also if release we then lynch release sloosh is probably scum for his ding ding ding comment. Sloosh did seem suspicious to me becasue of his votes.

Given that I know that me, VE and Bunnies are town and you are very very likely town, I'd say a high chance. Obviously, Release voted YKZ so in that case it say a relativly low chance.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:25 GMT
#1561
On June 27 2014 08:24 slOosh wrote:
Snickers if Lazer flips town we can deal with it then.

GG. Nice waste of 72 hours bro.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:36 GMT
#1565
I'm honestly pretty sad right now. I know that there are 2 scum on my wagon but it also means that there are 3 dumb townies on my wagon as well.

As for my wills:

-Anyone thinking that YKZ could be scum after this is so so so so so wrong. And stupid.

-Snickers, just do whatever YKZ tells you to. Your logic sucks but thats something we can take in postgame.

-Koshi/Release is the next lynch. Maybe SlOosh if he really fucks over.

-Chezinu and Snickers town.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:37 GMT
#1566
On June 27 2014 08:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Lm, you briefly voted Chez here: (link). Could you explain the reasoning behind your vote and your general read on chez? Since he's not the cop, we need to make sure we have a good read on him going into LYLO. What do you really think of him? Remember, as far as we know, Artanis saved this guy from a KP during N2.

Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 08:21 Release wrote:
On June 27 2014 08:11 YouKnowZhou wrote:
On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote:
On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:
On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:
On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM?

Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot.

So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip.

At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input).

Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post.

You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God"


So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here?

Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other.

it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ)


Ok, I see what you're saying. I'm just confused because 2 hours ago you said this:

On June 27 2014 05:42 Release wrote:
Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's.


But this makes sense. In your mind, you are thinking "I expect YKZ and LM to be scum together. A large amount of my scumread on them is an associative tell between unflipped players. If one of them flips town, my scumread on the other becomes weaker, more on par with my scumread on Koshi-- so I'll need to re-evaluate."

Is that accurate?

Not quite. It's not that my scumread on the other becomes weaker. It's the fact that there are 2 mafia left. It is stupid for me not to consider who the other mafia might be, therefore I must decide between the two remaining mafia. I think you might be reading too much into "I would probably lynch Koshi tomorrow." That is contingent upon his contributing nothing at the end of today and not doing anything tomorrow. Like I said: "(but of course I would have to consider his next day input)."


Ok, I understand. You're saying "I want to lynch one of YKZ/LM, but if we hit LYLO we need to reconsider everything and not fuck up". That makes total sense to me.

Naw, just forgot that Artanis saved him. Thats why I unvoted him so fast. Chez is town for sure.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 26 2014 23:41 GMT
#1569
The fact that Release and SlOosh simply did nothing is also telling I'd say. No matter how much scum you think I am, there is still a point in keeping up the work. It seemed like SlOosh even wanted to apear contributing by pushing me when it was obvious I was getting lynched. I said numerous times that I was cool with dying. I was giving out reads and asked them to ask question but SlOosh (and Release) just didn't give a fuck at all.
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
HomeStory Cup 28 - Group D
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 277
FoxeR 84
Ketroc 46
StarCraft: Brood War
Bale 79
NaDa 40
Noble 38
Icarus 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever598
NeuroSwarm223
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 748
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1481
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor132
Other Games
summit1g10366
C9.Mang0489
WinterStarcraft282
Maynarde135
ViBE71
Trikslyr70
minikerr3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1177
BasetradeTV78
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta39
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4083
• Lourlo528
Other Games
• Scarra1573
Upcoming Events
PiG Sty Festival
4h 58m
Maru vs Bunny
Classic vs SHIN
The PondCast
5h 58m
KCM Race Survival
5h 58m
WardiTV Winter Champion…
7h 58m
OSC
7h 58m
Replay Cast
19h 58m
PiG Sty Festival
1d 4h
Clem vs Percival
Zoun vs Solar
Escore
1d 5h
Epic.LAN
1d 7h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
[ Show More ]
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
herO vs NightMare
Reynor vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Epic.LAN
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
Serral vs YoungYakov
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
5 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-18
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
WardiTV Winter 2026
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: King of Kings
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
Acropolis #4 - TS5
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026: China & Korea Invitational
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.