You Only Shoot Once Mafia

On April 28 2014 02:58 austinmcc wrote:
Out of people who have posted, Oats is my least favorite poster so far. Filter.

First posts - Caller isn't mafia because this is a scummy way to use a nuke and scumCaller would do something that looked a little townier with it + geript is mafia for pushing a lynch on Caller at this point and masking it as policy.

Blindly trusting Palmar = meh. The bolded is my least favorite SENTENCE in the game so far. Two things about it. One is that while you can read it as "Palmar is now talking about screwing town over, therefore he's anti-town, and scumCaller wouldn't have nuked anti-town Palmar", it ALSO smells like this weird bootstrapped argument, because Palmar hadn't done anything anti-town at the point of the nuke, and so using Palmar's later behavior to partially justify Caller being town/Caller nuking Palmar feels smelly smelly. Does anyone else read that sentence as a weird justification for Caller's actions (nuking anti-town Palmar) rather than a comment on Caller's alignment given how Palmar's later play goes? Anyway, also keep that comment in mind for second reason it's relevant.


Geript was mafia because he was masking a shitty lynch as "policy." Now he's not mafia because he dropped his "policy" lynch, which he would have continued with as mafia.

Oats has no reason to think geript is town for this. If someone pushes a lynch you think is shitty and tries to mask it as policy, you're saying THEY ARE MAFIA for doing that. Town doesn't try to get mislynches ever, not by hiding behind "policy", not by hiding behind other words, town doesn't ever push mislynches, they push people they think are mafia. Oats is saying Geript was basically making up reasons to push Caller --> was pushing mislynches --> should be mafia, the end. His giving up that push doesn't make him "not scum," he simply stopped pushing Caller, but the push itself was there and appears to be scum-minded from Oats and just stopping it SHOULD NOT swap Oat's read. (That point is not expressed as well as it should be, but you should get the gist).

ALSO --> at this point Caller's nuke was modconfirmed dud. ~12 hours before this. Oats pops into the thread to say he doesn't think geript is mafia anymore (which I don't like), vote SnB, and says NOTHING about the nuke/caller/Palmar. Remember that Geript was claiming earlier that Palmar was playing anti-town, and this was one reason Caller was townie (Caller was town for shooting Palmar, who later played anti-town, meaning Palmar was not town-aligned, and Caller has to be town for shooting someone not town-aligned). For someone who thinks Palmar isn't town-aligned, WHY IS HE NOT VOTING PALMAR OR MENTIONING PALMAR?!

This is, imo, the biggest thing. Oats says Palmar was playing anti-town, is SO SURE Palmar is anti-town that part of why Caller is town is that his nuke is going on someone anti-town, but he doesn't vote Palmar, he doesn't talk about Palmar's pardon, he doesn't talk about Caller's nuke being fake and on Palmar, he just does what I feel to be a poopy 180 on Geript, then votes SnB without really any significant comment, without showing interest in a dude he thought was anti-town or any followup to the fake nuke.

(You guys should vote oats too!)

##vote: Oatsmaster

On April 28 2014 01:38 strongandbig wrote:

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So koshi's reason why I'm scum is that I have strange reads. Lets talk about this in detail.

First paragraph: I had a gut "this is scummy" reaction when I saw ve's post. I didn't have it on rereading but the thing you're quoting is from my initial read through post. Anyway you're committing a fallacy here. When a player makes a post about another player, what that post says about the poster and what it says about the subject of the post are two independent questions. First, because pre flip connection theories are inherently unreliable; and second, because even if the poster is scum, his post can still be attacking either another townie or a scumbuddy, and judging the post based on the perceived alignment of the poster is therefore an exercise in wifom.
What I'm saying is, even though caller did throw a nuke and looked like scum, I try to judge whether I agree with his reactions and reasoning about other players separately from whether I think those reactions and reasoning make him scum. Sometimes those conclusions feed into each other, like if someone's reasoning is bad and I can find a scum motivation for that bad reasoning.

So yes, I do "quote a post of Caller saying you totally agree with him about his VE read without taking into account this guy just dropped a nuke."

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Now, point (1). You're twisting my words here. I didn't say I couldn't see why palmar might think caller is scum. Palmar had not posted a single thing at that point either accusing caller of being scum, or explaining why he thought caller was scum. I thought and still think it was more likely that palmar had simply raged out at caller and wanted him dead regardless of caller's alignment.
Plus, the merchant stuff wasn't useless filler; it was evidence that palmar is the kind of player who will rage out and play counterproductively if he gets pissed off, because that's what his play looked like to me in the later parts of catastrophe.

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Point (2) - do you honestly disagree? At this point, Palmar thought like everyone else did that the nuke would land at deadline. Saving the pardoner power until deadline rather than soft-claiming it seems like much stronger scum play to me. First explain why this is incorrect or non-townie logic from me, then call me scum for it.

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Point (3) - my entire read of palmar at this point was based on the fact that he was pissed off at caller for nuking him. That's like the whole reasoning I explained in the paragraph that you labelled (1). How is that me knowing palmar is scum? Like, how does this show me having extra information at all?
Also, you're not reading what I wrote again. What I said was that if caller is scum and palmar is town, then caller would likely be bulletproof or something, because palmar is likely to attack back.
As scum, I do think a town palmar makes sense as a target for a nuke. It's getting rid of a strong town player, plus palmar is likely to rage and create chaos. The problem is, palmar is also the kind of target I would expect from a troll caller, for the same reason.

Anyway - none of the points in this case actually make sense. They don't connect to what I said at all. Koshi is building a case for me being scum but it doesn't engage with what I actually said, it just works it into a fake narrative that I'm scum.

On April 28 2014 02:07 strongandbig wrote:
Just to talk for a second about bh's case - it's stupid and lazy. He also uses way too many words to say I'm not being committal enough / am giving myself room to back out. This is the TL meta at work, no room for nuance or honest actual thought processes. The thing is, I feel like it's such a trope that I'm not even mad - like, the case is stupid but less stupid than koshi's cases. I said exactly what I thought in the post bh doesn't like, I guess I should've made up more machismo.

Anyway, bh asked me to read him as well so here it is. He accused geript of overexplaining and put an early vote down, flipped that vote a few times, and made his own overexplained case on me. Honestly, I've stopped expecting much out of bh. I know his read on me is wrong, and I really disagreed with how he justified his vote on geript. I know he won't be happy if I just say "he's been wrong in a scummy way, but his posts don't give me a strong gut impression and I don't really expect him to be right so I have a mild scum lean" so I'm gonna go ahead and say "he's 100% scum seal of approval lynch this motherfucker but lynch VE first and probably some other people too."

On April 28 2014 06:25 austinmcc wrote:
Also, VE,