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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 05:44 geript wrote: Although i will say that had palmar been in this game I would've WOTC'd his ass out just for fear of rolling scum because he's always scummy on me when I'm scum. WOTC doesn't work. Comment on Vivax plz kthx | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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WaveofShadow
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JJD what do you make of me v Vivax? You were the one who brought up the point against him originally, do you think his defense is adequate? Do you think his attack on me is justified? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 06:49 Vivax wrote: After rereading GSL IV I gotta say that I find gumshoe a lot less scummy. Basically all he has been doing in that game was justifying for people he could lynch, summarizing stuff and defending himself. Here he actively participates in discussions, and I'm confident in stating that the post tone is a lot different. Doesn't change where I stand with WoS though. Multiple of his actions don't make sense from a town point of view, him abandoning the gumshoe vote so quickly, suspecting me for not commenting on a player he doesn't know anything about, the not delivered look at a gumshoe scumgame he promised. Already explained im not suspecting you for your read on Chyz specifically, it's for your refusing to give reasoning and engage the thread on it. Abandoning gumshoe vote-Rayn and I got each other to switch stances on him to some degree. Nothing much to comment on there---hell I'd even go so far as to say I forgot about my request for him to deliver a read not-based on meta because we were to busy grilling the fuck out of each other. It wasn't my primary reason for finding him scummy anyway, which is not the same for your case. I've got more on you coming too, but I have to do it when I have more time. And I DID look at the gumshoe scumgame and I fucking commented on it---you know, all that stuff where I say from his scumgame it's obvious that he knows what his own meta is like because he gets all martyr-y there too! I can actually actively SEE where you're just tacking on points now to fit your 'case.' This is the first you mention of that. Boy oh boy I nwas trying not to do this 'cause inc; shitfest when I write up stuff on you later, but ##Vote: Vivax. I have reasons for considering gumshoe townier than I originally did. For you I have no such thing; in fact instead of making yourself look better I think you look worse. There is one post specifically that I really hate of yours, I'm wondering if anyone else will bother to find it. Your filter isn't that long. Unfortunately I get the feeling I can't count on Rayn for this one since he hasn't responded to requests I made to look at you so I'll have to come back and show everyone myself later. Hint: It's from before where JJD/I call him out. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 02:53 Vivax wrote: Jeez why couldn't I roll scum in this game. You guys are all so busy with fighting each other in such an unproductive way, and nobody called me out for not doing anything since I posted those points on gumshoe  Oh well back to lurking. Something VERY wrong with this post here. Be back later to explain when inevitably nobody bothers to attempt to comment on it or other Vivax-related stuff I mentioned (not you JJD lol). | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Let's begin: On February 26 2014 16:18 Vivax wrote: What I don't like about this post is that he can't simply say what he thinks about suki, but feels like has to put a Mocsta townread in front of it. That reads to me like he feels pressured to overjustify for picking a side in the debate, which is something I could see scum doing in a town vs. town argument, after all you're always painfully aware that what you say just isn't right, so you need to create a story. And this looks like a story, the story of how you think suki could be scum ONLY after thinking that mocsta is town, which is something I don't see townies do at D1. Explanation: Gumshoe feels that he can't attack suki without supporting Moc cause he thinks that he would look like his lacking suspicion of Mocsta was unjustified. Like, in a hypothetical town vs town argument as scum you would think that you can't attack one townie without clearing the other. Moreover you can see that the part about Mocsta could be construed (in best-case scenario, ie gum town) as a justification for sheeping him ("but I feel good about his accusation not coming from a place of deceit"), but gumshoe doesn't exactly use Mocsta's arguments (tryhard looking posts, "why-not-vote-for-me-question") and brings his own, which strengthens the overjustification version of events. The last bit with the nostalgia is either overanalyzing (if town) or making stuff up (if scum), so I think it should be disregarded entirely for now (@ geript). _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Nitpicking from this case is strictly forbidden, either you address all points and give a conclusive opinion or your remarks will be ignored. Vivax's opening post (not counting the geript townseal horseshit). Initially when I looked at this I thought it was worth some town points given that he can come up with a narrative on gumshoe that made a good deal of sense and was from a POV I nor anyone else in the thread had considered thus far. I was wrong about this as Rayn showed me---JJD essentially mentioned it earlier, though obviously not nearly this fleshed-out. It's actually not too bad except for two things. The first being the bolded section: gumshoe 'overjustifies' by giving reasons for sheeping Mocsta and trying to bring his own opinion to someone else's case/scumread. Townies do this all the friggin' time, and I see no reason why this is scum-indicative alone. If town doesn't want to sheep for no reason then gumshoe is doing the right thing AND providing his own reasons for agreeing with Mocsta. The second problem with this was brought up before: why now? Vivax finally explains here after being endlessly prodded: No, I didn't read all of it at that point. I just found that post scummy and wrote the points right off the bat. Now there is nothing wrong with that on its own but Vivax shows here that he has none of the townie desire to 'get to the bottom of things' and figure out what gumshoe's alignment truly is. I find the post 'interesting' as I mentioned earlier and he posts this: Interesting perspective isn't an opinion, Wave. And showing past posts that give you the impression that somebody could be scum is the essence of this game. How does gum having already been discussed affect the points brought up? it's completely irrelevant. How is the fact that there was a MASSIVE discussion around determining gumshoe's alignment irrelevant if that is the purpose of posting a case on him in the first place? Like that's basic scumhunting 101---find scum. Vivax posts a case and just asks for comments, he doesn't actually seem to be interested in figuring out gumshoe at all. + Show Spoiler + (BAD ASSOCIATION READ - never mind the fact that an obvious answer as to why he brought up gumshoe is as scum he doesn't want a town mislynch of gumshoe off the table, but that's weak. Just something to consider) On February 27 2014 02:53 Vivax wrote: Jeez why couldn't I roll scum in this game. You guys are all so busy with fighting each other in such an unproductive way, and nobody called me out for not doing anything since I posted those points on gumshoe Oh well back to lurking. I mentioned this post earlier and immediately I got the willies. Shitting on thread atmosphere when basically everyone in here has been (apparently) earnestly trying in one form or another to do some determination, and Vivax has the nerve to come in here after doing dick all and call out others. Also important to note is the preemptive lurker call. This is scum mindset right here: call myself out for something real easy so nobody else has the chance to do so. And hey, if anyone brings this up, I can always say: "Well why as scum would I draw attention to myself in that way?" There are many scum who have no issues drawing attention to themselves, me included. Vivax doesn't strike me as being afraid of the spotlight. It sounds WIFOMy but it absolutely isn't. It shows clear scum guilt and a scum mindset. Town has absolutely no reason to post this. On February 27 2014 04:28 Vivax wrote: I thought we were supposed to gather information for town, not just for ourselves. Hence it matters to everyone why you ask questions that seem to lead to nowhere except for shitting up the thread with information that nobody can use productively cause the answers you request are mostly nobrainers, like the next one: Gumshoe has my points to comment on, he can explain why he felt like he had to townread one and scumread the other, and why he calls suki scummy, then asks which circumstance is the correct explanation for her behavior in the case that she's town (which looks like he's offering her an out, taking away pressure from her). He basically gave her two possible explanations for her behaviour to pick from that don't picture her as scummy, and that after mentioning points that point to him thinking the opposite. And yet, this: On February 27 2014 04:37 Vivax wrote: I'd rather find it odd/scummy if I had mentioned the vote-leader and not anyone else. Leave no stone unturned. I don't think he's scum at the moment. I'd rather not expand on the reasons cause: 1. I could be wrong and I'd be taking away pressure from him. 2. I prefer to focus on the people I find suspicious. Vivax puts a lot of effort into making a case that calls me hypocritical and yet does similar things himself. He calls out gumshow for not gathering info for town and yet town wants his Chyz read,which he refuses to offer. He gives his reasoning later in here: On February 27 2014 08:21 Vivax wrote: Imagine you're scum and a townie defends you thinking you're town. Imagine you're town and a townie defends you when you're not really at acute danger Imagine you're town and a scum defends you. All alternatives aren't really attractive except for the scum party involved, except when you're at realistic danger of being lynched, which you weren't. Shouting your townreads out loud without need only helps scum in picking their targets, for the nightkill and for lynches. They will know who they can push safely without facing resistance and who they have to NK. Besides, town shouldn't spend time circlejerking around why somebody is town in such situations, but why somebody is scum. Of course it's situational, and in your case I didn't feel the need to redeem you from anything to find scum. I simply didn't find you scummy like others did, and that's all town needs to know. But I disagree with this, and apparently so does Rayn. I find absolutely no reasoning why you can't provide a townread, ESPECIALLY when providing said townread allows people to get a read of YOU. It has NOTHING to do with town circlejerking around each other's reads, this post makes it simply seem like you're avoiding giving the Chyz read above because it's bullshit and you don't want people reading you because of it. Vivax's points also reek of someone who is trying to come up with justification as he goes along: On February 27 2014 05:39 Vivax wrote: Can you explain to me how you can find me suspicious for not-scumreading a guy you didn't even look into yet? You want to hear reasons for him being something when you don't even know what he wrote? What would you do with these reasons when you didn't even reach any own conclusions you could compare the information with? But you're suspicious cause I give reasons for not talking about my read on him when you give out reads for "feels"? ##Vote WaveOfShadow Already commented on this---uses 'feels' to try to make me look bad even though whether 'feels' are ACTUALLY bad or not doesn't matter worth a damn to me and people who have played with me since I started using them know that. Has absolutely nothing to do with the main set of points he tries to use against me---the perceived hypocrisy which in fact, ISN'T. On February 27 2014 06:49 Vivax wrote: After rereading GSL IV I gotta say that I find gumshoe a lot less scummy. Basically all he has been doing in that game was justifying for people he could lynch, summarizing stuff and defending himself. Here he actively participates in discussions, and I'm confident in stating that the post tone is a lot different. Doesn't change where I stand with WoS though. Multiple of his actions don't make sense from a town point of view, him abandoning the gumshoe vote so quickly, suspecting me for not commenting on a player he doesn't know anything about, the not delivered look at a gumshoe scumgame he promised. He neglects to mention this last point in that case full of effort I linked above, why just drop it here? Oh I know, just looking for more random crap to paint me in a scummy light, despite the fact that (as I already explained) I did in fact read the gumshoe scumgame and it was part of what very obviously led me to be very unsure of gumshoe's alignment as he is hyper-aware of his own meta. More 'justification trying' below: Complains about gumshoe sheeping weakly while adding a random point for overjustification earlier...well what do you know! Look here! On February 27 2014 07:31 Vivax wrote: I'll sheep ya, Rayn. I want to add a few points though. Filterskim reveals a very passive Mocsta, no cases on people he believes to be scum since he has been put into the defensive. What I also don't understand is how he townreads WoS out of nowhere. He looked scummy to you, he looks scummy to me, and for him it's the strongest townread, and then he asks a question like this, which shouldn't interest him in the slightest if he's town imo: ##Unvote ##Vote Mocsta Putting WoS on the backfire for now. Mocsta is a more solid (and likely) lynch. 'FIlterskim-' yeah that basically sums up Vivax's efforts this game. Association reads Mocsta based on his random-ass townread of me and takes a basically inane question and calls it scummy. Bingo, good enough to sheep Rayn! TL;DR Vivax has a clear scum agenda throughout his posting. He has no desire to actually read through the filters of any of his scumspects (Mocsta, me, gumshoe), provides weak reads that are all then dropped---he cba to actually figure out the alignment of the people he talks about because he doesn't have to DO that as scum. When he does he comes up with his reads and what he wants to do FIRST and adds in weak justification points later---not the towny way, bro. Vivax is obvscum to me at this point. A much stronger read than Mocsta (at least to me) and I believe he needs to be lynched. No more ignoring the points I'm bringing up about Vivax, I expect people to read this and if they still find Vivax towny, I want to know WHY. If you're all still on Mocsta you can at the very least have a look at this before he comes back. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 09:26 Vivax wrote: I thought you were town cause you sounded a lot more confident than in GSL, but now you sound TOO confident gum. Rayn do you buy this? Is gumshoe scum? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
kk. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 09:42 Holyflare wrote: man wave, i've said all of that shit already :D:D:D:D Horseshit, I want the creds, man. Show me | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
I think it was on scumSkype where I was talking about how I haven't had a good town game where I caught scum since the LXII/Witchcraft/Golden Sun era. Simply proving myself towny in every game is nice and all, butat the very leat it's not enough for me this time around. Going to fucking lynch me some scummerzzzzz | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 09:47 Mocsta wrote: Wave I asked geript that question not to be inane but to try and push him to comment on something familiar to him other than toad. I don't disagree with vivax but u confuse me selfishly. He's a stronger read than me??? U think I'm a possibility for scum? Are you actually around to talk? I don't HAVE a good read on you like most other people seem to (my own weakness---I never am able to read you particularly well) but as Rayn/Toad feel good about it if it came down to it I would have too if I hadn't looked into Vivax---Vivax sheeping along means nothing. And yeah I know the question isn't inane, I ask stuff like that all the time but I was giving Vivax the benefit of the doubt for the sake of my case. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 09:56 Mocsta wrote: Not really able to talk or think deeply. I dunno this is annoying. I have to focus on work but I can't stop refrshing If u want something ask it. And if its detailed I will give it a crack at lunch time in say 4 hrs. You seem pretty concerned that you're going to get lynched when you have like 23h. As far as I can tell there's a little bit of sheepy sheepy going on and thread sentiment seems kinda mixed. I think at this point it's probably pretty important for you to give some real detailed justifications for reads (apparently including the read on me, which wasn't mentioned in your recent listpost). Another option: you still want TheChyz lynched--- (and I still haven't read him oh noes Vivax gon' lynch meh) can you give me a TL;DR to make it a little easier for me as a jumping off point and then we can talk about that? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 10:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: Mocsta can you actually answer the points i have raised against you in more detail? I wouldn't mind some acknowledgement form you re:Vivax, Rayn. I don't appreciate how you've essentially ignored everything I brought to the table about him since I started and the second Vivax counters you engage him. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 10:02 suki wrote: Like for all the activity in the thread so many people have been called out as scum and there's no consensus. Toad and geript are at each others throats. Mocsta is being wagoned on. Thechyz, vivax now, gumshoe, wave. All of them can't possibly be mafia Usually town has some direction day one.this game there is none Toad and Geript haven't been at it for hours already. Mocsta is the primary wagon. I want Vivax lynched, he dropped his vote on me. Chyz has a littlle bit, gumshoe has got basically nothing going on. Arguably the only strong direction as a thread we have right now is Mocsta---I'm really confused as to why you think it's so awful. I'm actually really happy with the townreads right now, which is not usual for me. It's 23h left in the game. Is consensus necessary right now? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 10:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am more interested in my read on Mocsta at the moment. I don't care about Vivax because he is voting for the target i think is most likely mafia. In case Mocsta proves himself as town then i'll look into Vivax. I want more from the people who are NOT voting for Mocsta (don't think he is mafia) and not pushing any lynch. If we have a counter-wagon or Mocsta starts shitting townie bricks then we can talk. I think your case on Vivax is okay, but my case on Mocsta is better. If you want more detailed answer you have to wait until things happen. I can accept this as Mocsta is in-thread and active, and should be the topic atm. I absolutely will not drop it though as the day progresses, and will require a majority of the people in here to comment on it in some form or another. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 10:06 Vivax wrote: Hey WoS, who do you think would be my scumbuddies? Doesn't matter to me right now. It's pretty rare for me to have strong scumreads D1 in any game so I'm pretty happy with just you. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 10:10 Vivax wrote: And if you can't lynch me? What will you do then? After all there gotta be two other scum somewhere right? In my opinion your vote will end somewhere meaningless. Lotsa time left. As for the other two scum, right now I'm just as interested in seeing what happens with Mocsta as everyone else. You know, 'cause I'm interested in determining people's alignments. I'm certainly not done pushing you, and I have tons of time to talk to other people I don't have good reads on yet, (cavalinho/suki/gumshoe/Chyz etc) Worst case scenario if I have to sheep later on into the day I will. I have plenty of people I have a good amount of trust with right now. If anything my vote could be somewhere 'meaningless' because I won't be around for deadline, as has been true for the last like 4 games that have had this time. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 10:18 Mocsta wrote: t all based on knowing my schedule. I made that post not thinking I would be continually distracted. I.e. I thought it would be my last post for the cycle. As for chz my case hasn't changed Ctrl f vote chez I'm on fine. Too hard to paste. Sorry Oh yeah I do remember this case...and I remember not being a huge fan of it. The points all seem like....I guess a stretch would be the best way of putting it? Now, TheChyz could be super paranoid town that doesnt want to give away information. HOWEVER, I dont attribute his posting as giving that vibe. I suppose this is epitomised by: How does that say anything about Chyz's alignment at all? What does him mentioning the typo say about him being paranoid or not? The phrasing is not fluid or natural to me. Regarding fluidity: I think this would be written "Also in bold, as town I never have thought "xxxx" Regarding natural: I know when I've rolled scum, i often write a statement, proof read and then go.. ahh.. let me add "when town" typically at the end. This feels very much the same. i.e. the "as town" component is a last addition designed to give strength to the argument. This section on how you feel like Chyz should have phrased his sentence? Like what...what kind of point IS that to make in a case? That's just so WEIRD. Other things in your case make sense to me like the section on calling out of HF, and the wonky justification of the townread on you (which I remember getting the jibblies about earlier) but like...some of those weird things in there don't really show how Chyz is scummy to me. I also don't really know what your usage of those weird things says about you. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 27 2014 10:20 suki wrote: Ya but If he's scum and I just madea big case on him calling him scum for not makinga case on rayn you think he would try to look good and make upa reason but instead he sticks to his guns. That seems more townie to me Reads not evolving and 'sticking to one's guns' is probably more often a scummy trait than towny one, at least the way TL meta takes it. Most often scum don't want to be seen as 'wishy-washy' (don't get me started on that thought) and so will try to be as absolutely consistent as possible. You're saying that Mocsta is staying consistent on not wanting to make a case on Rayn would indicate to me first of all that Mocsta was scummy, and moreso, would you actually be appeased if someone you wrote a big huge case on for not doing something, came back and did that something? Really? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
And HF I'm still waiting re: | ||
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