EPTI have read a few threads and would like to give online mafia a try
Newbie Mini Mafia LII
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I have read a few threads and would like to give online mafia a try | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I don't know if that is what 'clues' refers to, sorry | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
We are currently looking for coaches. Coaches will provide a brief post-game analysis to their assigned players with tips for improvement. From everyone's messages I wanted to make sure, we will also be able to talk to coaches during the game right? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
 http://bit.ly/1dxgIP8 | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
This will be my first forum mafia game! I have read a few threads but I do not recognize any of the players in this game. I have played epicmafia sometimes and have watched a few streams (pope, ring, ello, koibu). I am townsided this game. I will be up for another hour or so tonight, but usually I do not post early in the mornings here though (US MST). So far I like that Beneather asked about the modpost for innocent child! Thanks for remembering. When I don't have information yet I like voting for non-active people. Right now that's theDragoon, n1k0, and OnceKing. But, I want to hold my vote for a little longer since the game just started. And it will be an implicit promise I will not be afk or lurking because I have to come back before the deadline to vote | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I don't like OneKing's reasoning for voting me, though - (1) you want to discourage long posts, which I think hurts town (2) you classify saying you are town as scumsided rather than neutral (3) you claim (probably joking) that you are clear, and (4) providing the time you shouldn't expect posts from me (morning MST) merely provides a time, I'm sure there are times you sleep/commute as well and I would like to know them so you don't have an excuse for silence down the line. That said, I think OnceKing is acting slightly townsided because he has at least started some discussion by giving a reason for his vote, even if it is misguided. Moving forward, I see Cavalinho's post as scummy - Cavalinho, what were your reasons for wanting to lynch me? The same reasons as OnceKing, or is there anything else to add? If you wanted to suggest voting me, why not suggest it in your earlier post? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I think OnceKing's points are 1) Post is long 2) Criticism re: not playing before 3) Criticism re: claiming town 4) Criticism re: playtime 5) Inactives / not voting I think I touched on a few of these in my last post, but let me ask this - Regarding playing before, don't you think that is relevant to the game? Your last post even mentions that it is relevant this is a newbie game. I still think it is scummy that you wanted to suggest voting me but decided not to until someone else did, first. This early in the game I think we should post our suspicions as they arise. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On February 17 2014 05:59 Cavalinho wrote: I townread OnceKing, because he's posting his thoughts without fear. Hell, he even brought up what I wanted to bring up, so I see no point to view him as scum at this point if we think the exact same way. I see no point in scumreading anyone that shares the same viewpoint as I do about something so suspect and out of place so early. Any other post probably would have brought me around to vote you, had I not finally come out and made my suspicions clear before anyway. Also, you say it's scummy to suggest voting you but I should post my suspicion as it arises. How is it that I'm scummy for saying that I think you're scum? Should I just never vote on my suspicions? Should I just ignore my suspicions if someone else shares the same sentiment as I do? Your argument has holes in it and really only seems to be poking at the fact that I'm supposedly bandwagoning. On February 17 2014 05:38 Cavalinho wrote: Because, quite frankly, I wasn't sure if I should have pursued your post due to this actually being a newbie game. I wasn't sure if real players would actually think like that in a gametype that emphasize newness. But since I'm not the only one that thinks it, then I'm going to roll with the fact that this is probably the right path to go down. I don't think it is scummy that you voted for me But, it is scummy that you said you wanted to suggest vote for me. You posted after mine, yet your post did not address mine at all. You only raised the point after someone else had voted, then bandwagoned without providing anything comments on my post or OnceKing's post. It is scummy that your reason for not acting is that it is a newbie game. It seems to me there's all the more reason to raise suspicions in a game where players are inexperienced - we will not have as much skill making our own reads. It is worrying to me that you wouldn't raise a point just because someone else hasn't raised it - is that something you intend to keep doing in this game? My preference is that we all provide our scumreads ASAP. Incidentally, you didn't respond to my comment regarding game experience. I think our experience playing/watching mafia is important. If you felt we wouldn't grasp your thoughts is that its a newbie game, clearly you also feel experience is relevant. I think opening posts should provide this information so we can evaluate each other with as much information as we can obtain. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(1) Game experience is already showing that it is something we can use to evaluate- On February 17 2014 05:25 IAmRobik wrote: OnceKing, That's one hell of an argument for a newbie game. what's your experience? (2) In reflection, I guess it would appear less scummy for my first post to be like everyone else and randomly vote without providing any information on myself. So, three questions: If I were mafia, why would I try to stand out? Did my post contribute more or less helpful than any of the other first day posts? I think my first post contributed to town, certainly more than the other meaningless d1 posts: 1- It identified my reasoning for how I would vote if I had no scumreads 2- It told you when to expect inactivity and when I would have no excuse for inactivity Also I disagree with Tolkein's comment re lynching idle players. The longer the game goes, the more information we have from active players. Between our copchecks and filters, the players who are talking will be easier to attack for our inconsistencies and our analysis. Silent players don't provide town with any information, and more importantly they won't scumhunt during the day. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
What do you think the other posts d1 contributed? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Cavalinho: Let's start here. As I said earlier, I think his suggestion that he wanted to vote for me but didn't act on it is scummy. What makes it worse is this post, where he does something similar: On February 17 2014 07:56 Cavalinho wrote:What's actually kind of funny was that I was rethinking my stance after what you posted earlier, but he keeps trying to push back on me which, in turn, makes me go after him. Again, Cavalinho says he had a thought or analysis, but didn't act on it. He doesn't say what points he agreed or disagreed with, and is attempting to align himself with another player without offering anything. I read players that bandwagon without providing reasons as more likely to be mafia than noncontributing players. If Beneather or n1k0 provide a post with nothing more than a vote, I would raise the same criticism about them. Idle players are good when we lack information, but when someone acts scummy and continues to act scummy they take a higher priority. But, it gets worse for Cavalinho. First he said he wanted to vote for me before the first vote. Then, he said he was probably on the right track. Then he said he considered Lord Tolkein, but decided he should still go after me. Then, you get this: On February 17 2014 08:33 Cavalinho wrote:There's still more than 24 hours left for today's votes. Don't forget that. We have all the time in the world. I'm not even 100% on the Amiko lynch yet, so I might take my vote down just so we can get more reads. If Cavalinho wanted more reads, this was the absolute wrong way to end the post. He should be pressuring the people he wants reads from. I see this post as trying to appear unsure - I think it's clear that my number one suspicion was on him, so when I flip town it'll look bad for him, so this is an opportunity to start looking for someone he can target on day 2. This is hedging his bets and it isn't doing anything for town. IAmRobik: I have a slight scum read on him because of the ambiguity of his post. On February 17 2014 05:25 IAmRobik wrote: OnceKing, That's one hell of an argument for a newbie game. what's your experience? It doesn't say he agrees or disagrees. And, he doesn't follow up on his question at all. I think he should explain his posts and provide some analysis or at least weigh in on one side or the other for my post.. LordTolkein: This post concerned me On February 17 2014 08:16 Lord Tolkien wrote: I'm not entirely convinced that Amiko is red, but I don't think at this point it matters. If you are town, it should be super relevant whether I am mafia. I've given some explanation of my playstyle and I'm the focus of day 1. If you are town, you should be wondering about my side because it may be the only information you get going into day 2. If you are town, why are you willing to enter the next day with as little information as you have? This is at worst a scumslip, and at best it's the wrong attitude to have. I don't want to base too much off this comment, but it made him lean scum for me. OnceKing: I discussed OnceKing somewhat earlier. In summary, although he is voting for me and I am town, I think he's at least directed town toward some useful discussion and provided reasoning. More importantly, he's followed that up by pressuring for thoughts of other players. I don't like that he is leading a lynch on me, but and I think he has selectively misinterpreted my posts twice. But as I said before I think this is town-favored play because it has helped conversation.. theDragoon & Valenius: I'm not sure. They have contributed a little but I don't have a read yet. I would like to ask both, if you were to pick someone other than me to lynch, who would you pick and why? If I am lynched and flip green, what will your thoughts be on Cavalinho & Beneather, [b]n1ko[b/]: Nothing to read yet. I would also like to know what they think of Cavalinho since I fingered him in response. I'd also like to know whether they can commit to being more active in the coming days because right now we have no information to use. Regardless of whether you agree with me, I think you should at least be dissatisfied with the contributions you have gotten from most of town today. I hope you do not vote me, I will certainly keep on contributing while I am alive. Hopefully I can persuade you to change your minds to avoid a mislynch. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
##Vote: Cavalinho I saw a few more things to comment on above so I'll write something on those now. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
##Vote: Cavalinho | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On February 17 2014 12:00 theDragoon wrote: I've a strong town read on Cavalinho, I really like his posts and the reasoning he's put into them, especially where he goes over the scenarios in which Amiko flips. He's really put himself out there trying to help town, even going as far as quoting one of the guides on TL to support his read on Amiko. After reading through Cavalinho's and OnceKing's posts, I'm starting to be a bit more convinced that Amiko is scum, however with so many inactives I will wait until they start posting more before casting my vote. Scum have a huge incentive to hide right now if Amiko is town. I think Cavalinho's analysis of the flips is off and you should not like these scenarios. On February 17 2014 08:33 Cavalinho wrote: A) Amiko flips green or, heaven forbid, blue. 1: The mafia will most likely be hiding amongst the inactives since they had almost no pressure put on them throughout the first day. 2: Mafia started the lynch and cast suspicion on themselves. This is a possible scenario, but it's still unlikely that a cop check will solve the issue since the most likely candidate for pushing someone that is supposedly town would be the Godfather. I think #1 makes some sense because Mafia doesn't know when starting a vote whether town would follow. This is why I don't feel that OnceKing voting me reflects any scumminess. But, Mafia have every incentive to join in the vote on a non-mafia player. Right now mafia should be encouraging the idea that I am the only vote for today, or that the vote is decided at this point. That's why this post by Tolkein is troubling: On February 17 2014 08:16 Lord Tolkien wrote: I'm not entirely convinced that Amiko is red, but I don't think at this point it matters. ##vote Amiko Depending on the flip: 1) Die scum die 2) Sorry mang, but take one for the town I'm not advocating a vote for Tolkein right now, but that post is encouraging the idea that the day is already over. Even if you think I'm the scummiest player, you should be pressuring other players to give their logic and explaining your reasoning so that town has more information for the following day. In other words, mafia shouldn't be hiding among the inactives, they should be actively trying to close the deal on me. Basically, Cavalinho and I entirely disagree. He thinks mafia are either the leaders, or uninvolved in the vote. I think mafia have the most to gain by encouraging an incorrect vote. On February 17 2014 08:33 Cavalinho wrote: B) Amiko flips red. 1: Mafia either defended him or bussed. Either way, mafia wouldn't be so outspoken on the first day trying to attract attention to themselves. 2: The people running the lynch should be almost confirmed town since mafia obviously wouldn't run one of their own guys into the ground so early. I won't flip red so I don't see much point in commenting on this. But, I do agree it's unlikely mafia would bus when there are probably 2-3 mafia in the game. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
OnceKing’s comments on Lord Tolkien (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20816932) Although I’ve indicated I dislike Tolkien’s post earlier, I felt yesterday that I wished for more to go on. OnceKing’s points made me take another look at him. It’s tough. I agree with most of OnceKing’s points on Lord Tolkien, but disagree with a few: (1) I still think experience is a useful metric. Though, I grant that I haven’t found much use for it yet in this game. (2) I don’t understand why commenting on the game setup is something scummy/towny. OnceKing mentions it with a (meh) so I’m not sure which way he leans on the issue. I see this as neutral, I think - we can only guess at which town and mafia roles are in the game, but I think it’s at least educated guessing. (3) I don’t put much into his highlighting the “(newbie)” comment made by Tolkien. I also see this as neutral. Re-evaluating Lord Tolkien OnceKing did make me look into Lord Tolkien more in this post. I do have at least one thing to add: In this post, Tolkien says he won’t speculate on night actions. On February 17 2014 14:38 Lord Tolkien wrote: I'm not going to speculate on night actions at this point of time yet, as there are too many variables to account for outside of a mafia kill. But, this earlier post is doing just that: On February 17 2014 08:45 Lord Tolkien wrote: Just thought of something. The other option is if Amiko flips green or blue, and two of the (currently) three people advocating the lynch are red. Mafia will probably kill the non-red active player at night, and from what it currently stands, the two can lead the town into a self-lynching orgy. Also possible. I'm leaning towards there being 2 mafia, but it's also possible that there's 3 (highly unlikely I think given only 9 players, but possible?). We'll see. I see this as somewhat scummy because it is inconsistent – why will he comment on night actions in one post but not another? On February 17 2014 16:03 Lord Tolkien wrote: How about this: if you guys do and I turn up green or blue, you guys lynch OnceKing? Because I'm now pretty sure you're scum after this post, and a town for a mafia is a pretty sure trade. I get the point he is making here, but I don’t really like this play. As someone who was just accused a lot, it never occurred to me to offer myself as today’s lynch in exchange for killing someone else tomorrow. So, I see this as a strange statement. Frankly, neither of these posts are damning. I see them as unusual plays, but I know I’m still feeling my own playstyle out. I want to reread IAmRobik and Valenius’ more recent posts, but these comments make me like lynching Tolkien as an alternative to Cavalinho would be acceptable though not ideal. OnceKing’s Rescind on Me I wish I had more to say on this. If OnceKing is mafia, he does have a little to gain by unvoting me because I have said (and at least for now, will continue to say) that I read him as town. So, it is possible that he is pocketing me as someone who trusts him. If he’s mafia, this also gives him some credibility, because if I were voted off I would flip town, and some players might question him as the person who led the initial lynch on me. Right now I do not think OnceKing is mafia, but I think it is important to analyze what he gains or loses. Beneather (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20817073) The above post is all I think I can use for analysis. There’s not much to say, but here goes- I don’t like that he opens by saying he doesn’t think Tolkien is scum, but the remainder of the post seems to argue (or suggest, since it doesn’t come down very hard) that he finds Tolkien scummy. He points to the troubling Tolkien post and mentions he does not understand why Tolkien thinks I am scummy. I don’t have much to say about his scenario where I live and Tolkein is shot/potentially a veteran. I see this post as more noncommittal than scummy. I at least want to see Beneather commit more. Beneather, if you don’t think Tolkien is scum, is there anything you see as weighing against him as town? Beneather, what comments do you think are scummiest in the game so far? Your comments at the end of your post seem to suggest you want to leave me and Tolkein alive – who would you lynch? Cavalinho’s Response to OnceKing (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20817116) I don’t think we waste time by attacking each other. We are giving town things to talk about and analysis they can agree or disagree with. At the least, we have given town reads and interactions between ourselves and the rest of town that they can use. I hope that my activity will help everyone see me as town, but (as I said earlier) I think the best thing that’s come from the attacks on me is that town is starting to actively analyze things. ------ I need to re-read the posts by Valenius and IAmRobik, I’ll try to post some comments on those next. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On February 17 2014 14:06 Cavalinho wrote: I think it's ridiculous that I'm getting looked at as possible mafia because I agree with someone else's analysis. (For the record, I agree with all of what you said about it. Just in case this comes up again.) To explain my reasoning on Cavalinho a little better, this is the kind of direct post I was looking for earlier. As I am looking at everyone in this thread, I want people to tell me what they agree or do not agree with. I don't see the post as important. But I wanted to at least try to clarify to Cavalinho why I think most of us found his followup vote so scummy in case he is town. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I wanted to include a little comment on him since recent posts have given more to analyze. I think theDragoon makes good points when discussing Tolkien. I didn’t think of it earlier, but I like the questions he asked Tolkien, specifically where he questions (1) why Tolkien suggests he stuck his neck out and (2) questions him on OnceKing moving his vote from me (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20817275). I’ll talk more about Robik below, but I felt theDragoon’s post here was the exact right town response – Robik is taking some positions, but they seem off to me and there’s insufficient explanation. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20819793). I would have liked to see theDragoon respond more as to what he agrees or disagrees with in Robik’s post, but it’s a start. Based on this I’m seeing theDragoon as slightly town. IAmRobik I like his posts even though we reached different conclusions. It seems to me IAmRobik has provides explanations for his actions when asked when questioned by me and OnceKing, and I’m glad he picked up in activity over the past few hours. I commented on this post earlier, but I want to clarify one thing- On February 17 2014 05:25 IAmRobik wrote: OnceKing, That's one hell of an argument for a newbie game. what's your experience? This post got raised a few times. I just wanted to say again, I think it is too ambiguous to use one way or another. It could mean IAmRobik is impressed with OnceKing’s argument – as in, “that’s a hell of an argument, I’m impressed, have you done this before.” Or it could mean it as a defense of me – as in, “that argument seems too good to come from a new player.” I didn’t read the post strongly one way or the other, and I think his answer makes sense. I read him as more townsided at this time. I disagree with his read on Cavalinho. Valenius I read his filter but I really don’t come away with anything I think is helpful to highlight and have to get back to work. I’ll try to take another look tonight if I'm not occupied with Cavalinho. -- Cavalinho: I just saw your last post, I'll put a quick post in response in a few minutes | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On February 18 2014 06:38 Cavalinho wrote: Except nobody found it scummy except for two people. Almost every single other player in the game has a townread on me. Stop talking as if everyone shares the same views that you do, because they obviously don't. You aren't even saying anything in this post. You say it's direct and that it matters, and then you're saying it doesn't matter. Explain your scumread. Do it now. Stop beating around the bush and looking for things you can twist. I have to work for a few hours, but if you want to go back and forth more I can try to go over it 3-4 hours from now. Here's the best summary I can provide for you. In exchange, I would appreciate if you provide comments on my two above posts. Tell us what you agree with and what you don't agree with. That's what you need to do to to help town. The post I made noted that you (finally) provided at least some direct explanation of your vote for me because you explained you agreed with OnceKing. If it helps, the bolded statement above is a concise explanation of why I scumread you. It is in mafia's interest to encourage voting for a town player. However, they don't want to stand out or draw attention. If they succeed, the player will flip town and people will question their logic because there is proof they were wrong. In my view, this game moved from mostly meaningless day 1 voting to a game when OnceKing voted for me. He provided reasons for his vote that made it carry actual weight. In doing so, he started a vote on a town player. Your post bandwagoned him without any meaningful commitment. I think it could be summarized as "me too" - when I flip town, you didn't provide anything that would incriminate yourself. Your post leaves you a lot of room: you can later say you weren't sure, or you agreed with OnceKing regarding discussing experience, but not about post length, or whatever suits your fancy. In addition, you pretend that you had the idea beforehand, which I see as an attempt to align yourself with OnceKing without offering anything yourself. You then make a very similar move where you indicate you were rethinking voting for me. Again, it doesn't offer anything except seeming to align yourself with a player without committing. If you thought through a player, you should be providing your reasoning (just as you are asking of me). You also have indicated a few times that you want to scumhunt. But, I don't see you actively pressuring anyone. I also dislike like that you read IAmRobik's comment as defending me when I read it as ambiguous/weird. I wrote this hastily, so I'm sorry for points I missed or did not address adequately. If you want to understand my reasons for suspecting you, you'll find them better explained by reading my filter. Your section is in bold, and I think it's longer than everyone else's I'll finish with this thought - I don't really think you and I are getting anywhere with this discussion and I'd rather spend time looking at other people. I'd like to see you lynched, but a lot of town doesn't - hopefully I can convince them that you are town in the coming days, or maybe you can convince me you are town with your play. To do that, please provide analysis, scumhunt, and when you vote make sure it's clear why. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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