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On January 10 2014 17:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 05:09 Derrida wrote:
^ Agreed, I am disliking this amount of fluff. We need to get back to reads. What do you guys think about Artanis playing along with the Scooby Doo scheme? How is this not a specific accusation? Or a specific question or whatever? I think it pretty clearly reads he is concerned about Artanis' play and wants to know what other people think about it. no?
How is asking "what do you guys think of X doing Y?" an accusation? It's an extremely safe way to look like you're contributing to the discussion without actually putting yourself out in the open for anyone to read you or committing to any viewpoints.
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On January 10 2014 17:57 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 17:55 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
That might work for you but from my perspective the probability is flipped.
Either Mocsta or Artanis bussed him (unlikely) or he's scum with any of You/Giggle/Rayn. You can retrieve scum reads from 8 posts of a filter? I'm am quite seriously impressed. You seem to KNOW that the guy is scum despite me linking an ACTUAL scum game of his from his last newbie game that looks nothing like this one so far.
Two of the posts, especially the one we're discussing right now read very scummy to me. I'm still waiting for his actual response. Right now he is the strongest scum-tell I have.
I haven't actually read through the filter of the last game and compared it to the filter from this one yet. I'm not sure how valuable it will prove with such a low sample size and the fact that people are likely to change their play from game to game, especially during their first few games, so even if it is a different style I'm not willing to clear him based on that fact alone.
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On January 10 2014 18:01 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 17:58 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On January 10 2014 17:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 10 2014 05:09 Derrida wrote:
^ Agreed, I am disliking this amount of fluff. We need to get back to reads. What do you guys think about Artanis playing along with the Scooby Doo scheme? How is this not a specific accusation? Or a specific question or whatever? I think it pretty clearly reads he is concerned about Artanis' play and wants to know what other people think about it. no? How is asking "what do you guys think of X doing Y?" an accusation? It's an extremely safe way to look like you're contributing to the discussion without actually putting yourself out in the open for anyone to read you or committing to any viewpoints. Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 04:53 Giggletummy wrote:
What intentions and consequences do you ascribe to his posting? Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 03:57 Giggletummy wrote:
Any purely speculative thoughts based on people searching or not searching? Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 05:11 Giggletummy wrote:
GGTeMpLaR, LIGHTNING ROUND TIME. HF's buddy plays along or sits silently while HF posts? Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 07:38 Giggletummy wrote:On January 10 2014 07:28 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On January 10 2014 06:26 Giggletummy wrote:
I don't like that artanis is content to just play dog. There's no real rush on the day, but whereas you messed around and tried to get other people to mess around (townie), artanis is content to do nothing more than mess around. I don't count the non-me bark as not messing around. He also has 2 brackets in his name, and we have 2 scum. After this post you joke around some more with HolyFlare who still hasn't given a read despite me pinging him. Artanis actually gave a scum read (or at least, that's what I read into his barking at Derrida as) that I agree with. At least he's playing the game while trolling. HolyFlare is still trying to recruit people into his mysteryvan. How do you read Artanis scummy over HolyFlare and Derrida? Cuz HolyFlare came into the game and made a spectacle of himself. For a couple hours into the game, that's still going to be townie for me. Artanis DID do a little read-giving, which I like more than what rayn has done. But I don't view him barking and whatnot as determinative of anything. His more recent post looks better. Derrida sounds like Doritos. Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 09:00 Giggletummy wrote:
mocsta, any comment on the derrida suspicions? These all fall under the same category of what you attribute to Deridadadadada being scum. Yet this guy has significantly more trolly posts inbetween and a substantially larger filter. Why is he not your target instead?
I don't know, now that you lay it out like that he does seem really suspicious too.
Maybe it was something about the "lightning round" that made me want to trust he had good intentions LOL
Ok I still think Derrida reads scummy to me but Giggletummy is scummy too now. He was the one who asked for us to pull off the votes so that the vote wouldn't pass without him responding, which actually is a pretty good way of preventing your partner from getting lynched without hard-defending them but also an easy way to look townie if by some odd chance Derrida is actually town.
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On January 10 2014 18:07 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 18:03 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On January 10 2014 17:57 Holyflare wrote:On January 10 2014 17:55 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
That might work for you but from my perspective the probability is flipped.
Either Mocsta or Artanis bussed him (unlikely) or he's scum with any of You/Giggle/Rayn. You can retrieve scum reads from 8 posts of a filter? I'm am quite seriously impressed. You seem to KNOW that the guy is scum despite me linking an ACTUAL scum game of his from his last newbie game that looks nothing like this one so far. Two of the posts, especially the one we're discussing right now read very scummy to me. I'm still waiting for his actual response. Right now he is the strongest scum-tell I have. I haven't actually read through the filter of the last game and compared it to the filter from this one yet. I'm not sure how valuable it will prove with such a low sample size and the fact that people are likely to change their play from game to game, especially during their first few games, so even if it is a different style I'm not willing to clear him based on that fact alone. Are you claiming scum or something? You just admit to having not read his previous game and so haven't actually looked at his posting style at all yet still try and state an informed opinion on this game. These are VASTLY different styles and there are only 8 posts. So why did you feel the need to add votes to him in an IML game with 7 people before he could even respond based off only 8 posts do you have extra information that we don't?
Ok well I didn't think I had to go through and read everyone's game history to have educated reads on them as the two posts in question read as scum independently of a posting history in my view.
I don't know what IML stands for but I think if he is town though that it would be pretty obvious if the mafia just decided to pile on the last couple votes without letting him respond. That being said, I'd like to hear from both Giggle and Derrida before I come to a final decision as to which reads more scummy so
##Unvote
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On January 10 2014 18:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:
It's not about style. It's about the mindset. Derrida's mindset in this game seems totally different than in his newbie game.
I'll read over it tomorrow but I still won't put much stock into it as I think people can change their play, especially when they've only got one game played it is probably very easy to change their game.
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Also who/what is zizyo (or what is it a reference to)?
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It's weirding me out how sure Rayn/HolyFlare are so convinced of each other, but I liked them both a lot more after they reasoned out their arguments against me around Derrida so I'm just going to go with them for now until suspicion leads me to think otherwise because the unlikely alternative is they're playing the best mafia team game in the history of ever. I don't think one town/one mafia is extremely likely based on how sure they are of each other's alignments.
I read Derrida's new posts as scummy because it seems like he's intentionally tunneling on HolyFlare because Holy/Rayn both said "GGTeMpLaR wouldn't tunnel so hard on Derrida if he were town" so he's trying to emulate a behavior by one player that read as town to other players.
On January 10 2014 21:06 Derrida wrote:
Please share the alignments you have figured out so far with the help of your scheme.
I'll grant him that this is true because all of the alignments HolyFlare have pointed out are based on things that are from the actual game and have nothing to do with scooby doo, despite his insistence that scooby doo game is solving the game.
It does feel a little bit like he's sheeping the argument I already had against the scooby doo game though, but he brought up a lot of points that (even if I don't really agree with them) are unique. I'm less confident in my scumread on Derrida today, but I still think he's scummy.
On January 10 2014 22:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Look i try to explain. Holyflare's mini game is not a scum tell. You guys are calling it a scum tell because it distracts the thread while in fact it has promoted the most useful discussion there is. It started the scumhunting discussion. I don't know what thread you are reading if that's not your conclusion.
This specific part of the post is wrong. Me going hard on Holy, then Derrida is what started the scumhunting discussion and forced people to start expressing their thoughts on the matter.
On January 11 2014 02:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Derrida is quote obviously town and you and Mocsta should see it.
So yeah, process of elimination and your unwillingness to help the town or interact with people.
I disagree.
Also, if you think there are 2/3 scum between Artanis/Mocsta/Giggle and Artanis confidently and fearlessly continues his troll and gives null reads on both of them, do you honestly think he's scum with one of them and doing that? It would be an extremely bold play for a mafia to make in that situation and I still think he's right to not clear Derrida as town as you and HolyFlare have.
On January 11 2014 03:16 Giggletummy wrote:@ggtemplar Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 17:12 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
First, I made an educated guess about his intentions when I scumread him. Under the assumption that HolyFlare is scum, I think my guess about his intentions made perfect sense. This is a poor way to scumhunt, and is going to lead you down a lot of wrong paths. You can assume anyone is scum and find reasons that their actions are then scummy. If you're mafia, it's how you make decent-sounding scum reads. If you're town, it's how you tunnel, often incorrectly. It's not at all a good way to get scumreads, because if you're town you're doing exactly what mafia would like to be doing, and you're starting with someone being scum and then finding actions, rather than using actions to find someone scummy in the first place. Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 17:12 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Second, I pointed out before I don't care if people are going to troll as long as they are going to give concrete reads and play the game as well (hence why I actually approved of Artanis even though he was acting like a dog - he gave a solid scumread that lined up with my thoughts and quoted the same post I had issue with, even going so far as bolding the significant portion of the quote). Artanis's initial scumread is this: Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 05:15 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On January 10 2014 05:09 Derrida wrote:
^ Agreed, I am disliking this amount of fluff. We need to get back to reads. What do you guys think about Artanis playing along with the Scooby Doo scheme? *barks aggressively* to which you responded Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 05:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I like Artanis because I think he just sniffed out the second scum.
I'll be back in a few hours. Are you saying that you considered artanis's initial barking a concrete/solid scumread? Are you saying you presented your thoughts on derrida? Or does the bolded bit of your later quote only apply to later posts? Would like to see you back this bit up.
I wasn't necessarily using that method to scumhunt. I was responding to HolyFlare that using his own logic from my perspective, a different conclusion is reached because the alignment of non-voters vs voters is proportioned differently from someone who was voting vs someone who wasn't.
It's really scummy of you to completely ignore/forget the context in which I said I made that assumption. Rayne had said that "Holyflare's intentions are still unclear, so him doing what he did is a null-tell." which is a fairly obvious thing to state but I was explicitly asked what I thought HolyFlare's (I think it might have even been by you who asked this of me) intentions were and given that I already initially scumread HolyFlare, I would work from my read to guess what his intentions are.
I gave explicit reasons why I thought Derrida was scum that had nothing to do with making an assumption. This is the post where I gave my reasons - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440222¤tpage=7#140
I assumed the post fairly obviously looked scummy so when Artanis bark'd at the same post in question I had a lot of issues with, I took it to mean that we were thinking along the same line of reasoning regarding why Derrida was initially scummy. Perhaps I was wrong to assume so as his newer reasons for scumreading Derrida are different than mine, but I think we were on the same page regarding the initial scumread.
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To sum up my reads, I think Derrida is scum.
I'm currently trusting Holy/Rayn/Artanis as town.
That leaves between Giggle who is slightly scummy and Mocsta who is basically lurking for the last scum. It's really risky for Mocsta to have voted on Derrida though in L-1 so it's more likely to be Giggle with Derrida (which makes sense that he defended him as well).
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And by defended I mean saved him without ever actually having to give reads on why he thought he was town + he didn't address or take a stance on Derrida's new posts at all despite being the one who asked for us to unvote so he could respond.
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On January 11 2014 07:58 Giggletummy wrote:
GG, how do you feel about the filters that HF posted?
How do you feel about the rest of derrida's filter, other than the couple posts you mentioned in your initial vote. Pull some specific things if you would.
I think he might be reading too much into Rayn's 'pretty' mini-game in light of his overall play, but regardless of that, I think Rayn's playful post made it slightly easier the scum to hide without actually obliging his pings for information because they can just ignore the request on the pretext that it's a joke post to begin with.
HolyLight made the accusation much more direct though if he was right in saying that is what Rayn was getting at.
I think instead of asking me what I thought of his accusations against three people who refuse to commit to reads on each other (one of which is yourself), you should actually address them yourself since they very much are against you. The very fact that you're still ignoring them and pinging me for my opinion of it reads scummy to me. If you're town in this situation you should have no problem giving your reads on Mocsta/Artanis. Artanis didn't mind at all, even if they were null/fence reads he still honestly gave them. You're stubbornly refusing/dodging the pressure while Mocsta is still lurking.
Regarding the newer Derrida posts, I already gave my thoughts that they were scummy.
I read Derrida's new posts as scummy because it seems like he's intentionally tunneling on HolyFlare because Holy/Rayn both said "GGTeMpLaR wouldn't tunnel so hard on Derrida if he were town" so he's trying to emulate a behavior by one player that read as town to other players. Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:06 Derrida wrote:
Please share the alignments you have figured out so far with the help of your scheme.
I'll grant him that this is true because all of the alignments HolyFlare have pointed out are based on things that are from the actual game and have nothing to do with scooby doo, despite his insistence that scooby doo game is solving the game. It does feel a little bit like he's sheeping the argument I already had against the scooby doo game though, but he brought up a lot of points that (even if I don't really agree with them) are unique. I'm less confident in my scumread on Derrida today, but I still think he's scummy.
If you'd like me to further elaborate on his new posts, I think his saying this further feels like trying to sheep people to 'blend in' to the town.
On January 10 2014 20:35 Derrida wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:22 Mocsta wrote:On January 10 2014 12:56 Derrida wrote:
I am town you noobs, unvote me. Currently 5 am here just woke up because my cat is horny and meowing her ass off, do not, I repeat do not lynch me and I will try to provide some good reads intfhe morning. Official Callout. The morning has passed and I'm still waiting for this to come to fruition. As I told you guys before, I am town. Please do not waste your precious time on analyzing my posts. Derrida confirmed town.
His assumption for why HolyFlare is scum is literally the same argument I had with HolyFlare last night, except he's actually arguing what Holy/Rayn thought I was arguing when I was arguing something else. I also think it's scummy how he accused me of being with Holy for taking the most critical position against him.
The only way I see him not being scum here is if he's paranoid town, and if that's the case, I'd think you are with Mocsta, which explains your unwillingness to acknowledge of HolyFlare's accusation against you by deflecting onto me and continued refusal to give any reads on the pair of Mocsta/Artanis.
You just keep asking me questions about my reads without giving any of yours, and when you do critique my posts, you don't even get the context right of the arguments you use against me. When corrected by me pointing out the context, you ignore my counter-arguments and ask me more questions.
##Vote Giggle
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On January 11 2014 09:12 Giggletummy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:07 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
You just keep asking me questions about my reads without giving any of yours, and when you do critique my posts, you don't even get the context right of the arguments you use against me. When corrected by me pointing out the context, you ignore my counter-arguments and ask me more questions. My dear gg, it is difficult to ask you anything other than question. I cannot very well ask you platypi, or ask you trees. No no, that won't do. I'm afraid I'll stick to asking questions. Did you read derrida's filter from his newbie game?
What are your thoughts on whether or not I read derrida's filter from his newbie game? How would a "yes" answer from me lead you to read me compared to a "no" answer from me?
And more importantly, how is this relevant to your read on Mocsta/Artanis?
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Pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty good.
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I had actually said even if the style is different, I didn't think that it would clear him as town because I think people can change playstyle, especially when they first start out and they're going to be learning a lot from every consecutive game.
I'm going over it right now though.
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Ok having browsed through the other game's filter, Derrida does seem much more relaxed and laid-back this game with less "forced content" whereas his diction seemed a lot more stiff in the last game. They aren't night and day styles but they're still fairly different.
I'm not going to townread him based on that fact alone but he's not my vote for today anyways.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20571768
-While he is correct to note that Holy's main accusation is a meta-read, I think how Mocsta keeps filling his posts with excuses and filler content is extremely scummy. The only good point I like about Mocsta's initial accusation against HF is just a sheep'd read that HF shouldn't have cleared Derrida as town as quickly as he did.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440222¤tpage=20#382
-I actually agree that HF's metaread in-of-itself is weak, but the only reads Mocsta are giving here are unrelated to it are just the backlash against "HF/Rayn for using said metaread", and that "Artanis is town here for sticking to his guns". These are extremely weak reasoned reads.
I was scumreading Mocsta for these reasons until he did the self-vote shit. I don't really know if I should read it as a null-tell or what but at the very least I find it pretty bm.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440222¤tpage=19#367
-I think Giggletummy actually made decent points against Rayn, especially his noting how Rayn's early arguments against Artanis were weak. He also brings up solid points on the inconsistency of which players posting history are being looked at vs which are being ignored, especially after how much shit I got for not looking into Derrida's posting history.
I don't like how Rayn still accuses Giggle of not taking a stance on Mocsta/Artanis when he literally talks about them in the few posts above -
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440222¤tpage=19#373
I am town-reading Giggle and scum-reading Rayn for these reasons.
##Unvote
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440222¤tpage=23#442
-I will say though that I hate when anyone uses "policy lynch" as a reason for voting in any situation. Giggle is actually being really hypocritical here because in policy lynching someone you think is town for "making the game less fun by giving up", he himself is in a sense giving up as well and making the game less fun for the rest of us. That being said, aside from this, I've really liked Gummi as town since the last time I checked into the thread. His hard policy-lynch conviction doesn't necessarily read town, but it seems genuine to me, even if it's total bullshit hypocrisy. If you are holding yourself to the same standards you hold others to, you scumhunt, not policy lynch people you think are town. Voting someone else you think is town is just as BM as voting yourself as town.
Between Rayn and Mocsta, I'm honestly more suspicious of Rayn than Mocsta at the moment mainly for these reasons-
-Rayn so quickly read Derrida as town (like he had perfect information and was looking for an easy pocket) and went hard onto me for disagreeing when I felt there were excellent reasons to read him as scum
-It very much felt like Rayn's reads on Artanis (saying he was trolling and not playing the game - which was incorrect) was extremely inconsistent with his reads of HF
-This point is speculation but it honestly feels like Rayn pressuring Giggle over his policy-vote is setting himself up to go hard on Giggle tomorrow when Mocsta flips green (which is another reason you should never policy-lynch someone you think is town Giggle)
-And lastly, I've grown less sure of HF and I'm actually thinking that they both pocketed the shit out of me, especially with the Backho BW reference and Scooby Doo stories (which I actually thought were hilarious even though I misread HF's "clue searching encouragement" initially)
So this is where I'm at
##Vote Rayn
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I forgot to bold my unvote in that post so I'll make it clear just in case
##Unvote
##Vote Rayn
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On January 12 2014 08:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:
This game is filled with really fucking stupid people.
thanks
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On January 12 2014 09:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 08:49 Corazon wrote:Warning to Raynpelikoneet for this post:On January 12 2014 08:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:
This game is filled with really fucking stupid people. This post was completely unnecessary, and you should know better than to post like this, Rayn. Sorry. :/ GGTeMpLaR or Artanis is mafia. Both can be lynched whoever dies. Doctor do not protect these guys. Giggletummy's posts make no sense from scum perspective if it was a bus. Derrida & Holyflare are quite town.
I don't like this line of reasoning because I know I'm town and I still read Artanis as town as well. He was one of the first to vote on Mocsta. I don't think you can look into his unvote off Mocsta as scummy since he never really tried to get it onto anyone else.
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On January 12 2014 09:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:
You can say what you want, it does not make it any less true.
Independent of Mocsta flipping red, this is the scummiest post of the entire thread.
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On January 12 2014 09:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 09:05 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On January 12 2014 09:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2014 08:49 Corazon wrote:Warning to Raynpelikoneet for this post:On January 12 2014 08:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:
This game is filled with really fucking stupid people. This post was completely unnecessary, and you should know better than to post like this, Rayn. Sorry. :/ GGTeMpLaR or Artanis is mafia. Both can be lynched whoever dies. Doctor do not protect these guys. Giggletummy's posts make no sense from scum perspective if it was a bus. Derrida & Holyflare are quite town. I don't like this line of reasoning because I know I'm town and I still read Artanis as town as well. He was one of the first to vote on Mocsta. I don't think you can look into his unvote off Mocsta as scummy since he never really tried to get it onto anyone else. yeah he voted for Mocsta at the start of the game. Cool story. When Mocsta was in serious danger of being lynched he in fact did not want to vote for Mocsta. Why exactly do you read Artanis as town?
I actually forgot that he had done that early on in the game. I honestly think of it as a null read though.
It would look much more suspicious of Artanis if he actually tried to significantly defend Mocsta or pushed hard to move the votes elsewhere, which he did not. I haven't cleared Artanis as confirmed town but he's definitely not my top scum for reasons I've stated in my previous posts.
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EPT
