A Quiet Game of Mini Mafia
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wherebugsgo
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On January 05 2014 07:40 Blazinghand wrote: hm, this filled up before I expected. Sorry guys! Due to other obligations, I have to /out /out ofc you had to out, I'm in the game. can't be in two places at once. | ||
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##vote WaveofShadow Good night. | ||
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At the moment though, I want a bit more from a couple others. I want some opinions on the play of justanothertownie and kushm4sta. Bonus points if you back up your opinions with concrete evidence (e.g. past games) | ||
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On January 08 2014 02:54 iamperfection wrote: You reading the thread bugs? sure. I'm still trying to formulate my opinions, though as usual I've found it easier to consider a few people townies for now. The hardest part of the game is still trying to figure out whether people are being dumb because they just are or because their role PM had red text in it. join me in the killing of kush. ##vote kushm4sta | ||
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If you want to figure out my alignment for yourself it's probably a better idea to give me something better to work with. Why don't you comment on the game, or try to have a different conversation with me? If I can get some sort of insight into your current thoughts, e.g. what players you are currently looking at-you don't even have to particularly elucidate your reads-or, say, things you are worried about, or players you think are playing in a manner inconsistent to their norm, then I can have a fruitful conversation with you that can be alignment-enlightening in multiple ways. | ||
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In other words, your second option is (and pardon my French) to shut the fuck up and vote kush. | ||
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On January 08 2014 04:36 Corazon wrote: Well I cannot have a productive conversation with you because all you say is that you are going to read more and then throw a useless pressure vote on Kush. I need that contribution from you first before we can have a meaningful conversation. This isn't a one-way street. You seem to lack reading comprehension. We can do the "no you first' thing all day, but if this is the best you can offer then I have no real reason to keep talking to you. It isn't a personal thing, it's just that talking to someone who doesn't know how to further conversation is probably a dead-end at best. I offered you the chance at elucidating your current thoughts. They don't even have to be detailed. If you don't want to do even that then I can't be bothered to share more with you, since I have no clue whether sharing my current thoughts is even a good idea if I don't get decent information in return. Why should I let scum have a head start into knowing whom I suspect so early, if it doesn't particularly benefit me? It only changes their behaviour when they know who is specifically under scrutiny. | ||
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On January 08 2014 04:41 Corazon wrote: Read my filter. Read the game. You would see that I already have given my opinions on certain people (Yamato). Please don't come back and post again until you have read through the whole game, please. So, you're dumb. Okay. Thanks for letting us know. | ||
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On January 08 2014 04:47 Corazon wrote: Whatever, WBG. If you don't want to contribute, don't complain when you get lynched. More proof that Corazon is dumb, guys. This is fun. On January 08 2014 04:46 justanothertownie wrote: Well should you indeed have any suspects then it might help to make that public because otherwise you can't convince other people to lynch them. Also nobody will be able to read you this way. A kush lynch is just pure policy right now and doesn't contribute or help in any way at the moment. I'm sorry, are you actually trying to defend the guy who literally isn't bothering to play the game? I just can't understand this type of mentality. Everyone on this forum complains constantly about lurkers and then when games roll around the lurkers are defended and the people who bother doing something about it are attacked. Keep being dumb, I'm sure it's worked out so far. | ||
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On January 08 2014 04:57 justanothertownie wrote: I am not defending Kush. If he hasn't done anything late into Day1 I can policy lynch him then if it makes you happy but right now this does not serve any purpose. Do you think Kush wouldn't post at all as scum if he was here? I don't think so. Being absent is entirely a null tell and hiding behind this policy lynch right now without wanting to share any other opinion does not help town at all. So tell me, what do we lose by killing someone who is not playing the game? How is what I am doing "not helpful"? Have you even thought about what you are typing so far? I wouldn't call you dumb if I seriously didn't think you were acting like it. Do you think the game so far has had good discussion? If no, why the hell haven't you done something about it? If you are town, isn't that part of your job? What are you doing about players who are not contributing? What do you think you COULD be doing about them? How many questions have you asked yourself while reading this game? Have you even bothered to think about half of the things I am asking you right now? | ||
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On January 08 2014 05:07 justanothertownie wrote: We do note lose much by ultimately killing him in the end but wasting this entire day by just voting him and doing nothing else does not achieve anything. What you are doing is not helpful because you essentially prevent anyone from getting a opinion on you or to take your reads in consideration. I don't think the game thus far had really good discussion, no. But that's often the case Day1. Of course it is my job to change that as town and so it is yours (if you are town). Why do I have to do this and you don't? I don't think I can do anything about players like Kush right now because he is not here. Voting him won't change that. So again, I have to ask you. Do you really believe this garbage? I'm not so sure you do even subconsciously, otherwise we would not be having this conversation. Saying this, and I really don't understand how people do this almost every game, but stuff like this really spurs me into calling you stupid. I really hate doing that, but even when I wave the answer in front of your face you still don't seem to get it. Let me break it down into simpler terms. We do note lose much by ultimately killing him in the end but wasting this entire day by just voting him and doing nothing else does not achieve anything. You consider what we're doing now a "waste"? Until I came into this thread how much actual discussion of players occurred? Until I started having this conversation with you how much do you really think you knew about the game? Are you really that naiive to think that me voting kush means I'm not going to do anything else for the rest of the day? That everyone else is going to simply accept my vote and then move on? That as scum I would be so stupid to vote for literally the easiest target in the game? [spoiler]author's note: why the fuck do I have to point everything out to you like this? I feel the need to, given that you come off as dense based on your responses to my questions. Try to think or at least read more carefully next time.[/spoiler[ Of course it is my job to change that as town and so it is yours (if you are town). Why do I have to do this and you don't? Again, are you thick? Until I voted kush what kind of discussion was happening? We're having some sort of discussion now, but it's fruitless because you can't see what I'm trying to do. I even gave Corazon the opportunity to open a conversation with me and he basically said "no you" and pouted. So I called him dumb, because he is. Now you are basically doing the same thing. Stop thinking about things on a surface level and start thinking about motivations. Think about WHY people would do things, not WHAT they are doing. Day 1 lynches are notoriously bad. Worse than random, in fact. It's because of shit like this. People don't know how to begin discussion, so sometimes you need to purposely kick them in the right direction by teasing them with information. With that said, THINK ABOUT A KUSH LYNCH/LYNCH EFFORT AND WHAT IT MEANS BEYOND JUST KILLING HIM. Replace Kush with any name if you wish, just think about more than just the alignment of the player in question. The game is bigger than just the killing of players of different alignments. Stop being so focused on the result of the lynch, because unless we have a really good lead today or stuff picks up right now we're probably going to kill a townie. That's just how it is. I don't think I can do anything about players like Kush right now because he is not here. Voting him won't change that. Reread what you just said and think about it some more, because this is honestly one of the dumbest things you could say. Have you never been in a game where people complain about the fact that so many people are lurking? If you truly think you can't do anything about lurkers then the best thing for scum to do when they see that is not contribute at all, because you have basically just admitted to the fact that you will not punish that play. If you seriously believe that, it's not only dumb but scummy as hell. | ||
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it means I could simply tell my team to conform and they would probably live, because it would only take minimal effort to stay alive. This is precisely why lurking wins scum games. If you want to make the job of scum hard you need to punish first and foremost lurking. If you don't understand why that is, then one or more of the following are true: 1. You are bad at scum 2. You are failing to understand things from the perspective of scum 3. You are failing to understand why saying or doing certain things as town will affect scum play and make their job easier or harder. | ||
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"We can lynch them later." No, you fucking can't. You don't punish lurkers, then there will be MORE OF THEM. In fact, a lot of the time they won't be town. If you don't force them to contribute by voting them or pressuring them or discouraging lurking early, then you can never do it. How is this so damn hard to understand? What makes it worse is the incessant whining about lurking on top of it, which is only really acceptable if people do something about it and lurkers still exist, which clearly is not the case. The thing I love about all of this is how often you repeat yourself. You keep saying that voting kush is pure policy. This screams "I don't understand the game" over and over. You keep thinking about the product of the lynch, as if my vote is guaranteed to stay there. You keep thinking solely about policy without thinking at all about other parts of the game. You also keep saying this stuff without once positing an alternative. If you can't understand these things my best course of action is to ignore you or try to kill you instead, which I'm not convinced is a good option. At the very least you are here discussing things, and no matter how bad/scummy your actions and words are that makes you one of the towniest of the lot. | ||
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yet, you have the gall to say that I am not doing anything to help town. Fuck you. | ||
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On January 08 2014 06:34 justanothertownie wrote: I had the impression you have reads on other people which you chose not to share. I think it is perfectly fine to critisize you for that regardless of what I may have or haven't contributed. And you continue to not read what I have to say. On January 08 2014 04:40 wherebugsgo wrote: Why should I let scum have a head start into knowing whom I suspect so early, if it doesn't particularly benefit me? It only changes their behaviour when they know who is specifically under scrutiny. On January 08 2014 04:40 wherebugsgo wrote: Why should I let scum have a head start into knowing whom I suspect so early, if it doesn't particularly benefit me? It only changes their behaviour when they know who is specifically under scrutiny. On January 08 2014 04:40 wherebugsgo wrote: Why should I let scum have a head start into knowing whom I suspect so early, if it doesn't particularly benefit me? It only changes their behaviour when they know who is specifically under scrutiny. On January 08 2014 04:40 wherebugsgo wrote: Why should I let scum have a head start into knowing whom I suspect so early, if it doesn't particularly benefit me? It only changes their behaviour when they know who is specifically under scrutiny. You admitted yourself that you have no reads of your own. Telling you mine doesn't help me, given that you are apparently incapable of coming up with your own opinions. If you don't want to say anything useful beyond "lynching kush is policy" and "you're not helping town" then I have no use for you. I can't comment on what you're doing either, given that you haven't bothered to vote, provide opinions, or say anything of use at all. | ||
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On January 08 2014 06:52 justanothertownie wrote: Oh, I have read that but it is bullshit. If everyone used this kind of logic nobody would ever share his reads and no scum would ever be caught. It is not about what helps you it is about what helps the town as a whole either by starting more useful discussion or by allowing us to get a read on you and your reads might do both. Anyways I am starting to get tired of this too. I don't think I can convince you. You can't convince me because you haven't convinced me that you actually care about the game. No one has, but all it would take is a bit of talking. You're more concerned with other things to waste time, despite how hard I've tried to get you to say something not stupid. In fact, this entire time you've been more concerned with how my vote is policy instead of actually doing something. Think town discussion is bad? DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Not voting, crying about my "policy lynch", admitting you have no reads, saying my stance is bullshit-none of these things sound productive to me. If you rolled town I bet you'd be one of those guys in the endgame that complains about how hard day 1 is and how lurkers suck. | ||
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On January 08 2014 07:10 justanothertownie wrote: If all that is needed is a bit of talking then talk to me. But oh wait, you don't want to talk about what you think so it would rather be a monologue. Tell me something concrete you want to talk about and we can do this. Think town discussion is bad? DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Right back at you. I already did something about it. Why do you think I keep calling you thick? I voted, unlike you. I actually provided an avenue for discussion by trying to punish lurking through the use of the most powerful weapon a townie has: vote power. I'll do more than that now. I want your opinions on WaveofShadow and Yamato. I swear though, if you pull a Corazon or continue your current attitude I'm just going to ignore you for the rest of the game. | ||
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On January 08 2014 08:39 kushm4sta wrote: sorry if this is inappropriately insultative but it just pisses me off when people want to kill me before ive even done anything cool, you're not any different. Which is not a good thing, btw. | ||
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On January 08 2014 08:52 kushm4sta wrote: well wbg have you considered the possibility that i may be scum? seems like you haven't/. so you're scum, in addition to being useless? Thanks bro. | ||
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In fact, I'm going to do that. On January 08 2014 08:16 kushm4sta wrote: so whos scummy why post this honestly On January 08 2014 08:20 kushm4sta wrote: hmm no vote thread. anyone know what page the last votecount is on? why post this honestly On January 08 2014 08:22 kushm4sta wrote: lol why do you want to kill me before i even said a word wbg? you yourself have missed d1 before. metahypocracy. plus you are talking way too much. being really unpleasant and annoying. i want you to die day ##vote wbg why post this honestly On January 08 2014 08:24 kushm4sta wrote: oh i'd also kill gumshoe btw. didn't like he early game. why post this honestly On January 08 2014 08:26 kushm4sta wrote: @jat im really not afraid of dying so don't threaten me. also I find it scummy how WGB is making such a fucking big deal of somethign as simple as someone who hasn't talked yet. It's called REAL LIFE maybe you've experienced before or at least heard of it? why post this honestly On January 08 2014 08:39 kushm4sta wrote: sorry if this is inappropriately insultative but it just pisses me off when people want to kill me before ive even done anything why post this honestly On January 08 2014 08:52 kushm4sta wrote: well wbg have you considered the possibility that i may be scum? seems like you haven't/. why post this honestly why post this honestly On January 08 2014 08:53 kushm4sta wrote: when i have time to play properly I do. when I dont, i play like this. deal with it then don't sign up for games, you fuck. Jesus. Your play is fucking cancerous. | ||
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I'll get to it when I'm done raging at this asshole. Hopefully he gets modkilled or replaced, because it's honestly disgraceful to the community that people who don't give a shit about the quality of play are allowed to do this every fucking game. | ||
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I asked about yamato because it's worrisome that he's put so little effort into playing so far. From what I remember about his play, he tends to at least care as town. He's probably decent enough as a player to slip by as scum without taking too much suspicion. In fact I think I recall someone linking a game of his (the hydra one) in which I read his filter and I probably would not have been able to tell he was scum without really thinking hard about his posts in context. Often times it's not possible to focus so hard on one player unless you already have an inkling about them (this happens all the time in my experience, no one catches all the scum in a game unless they are really good and the scum are also at least on some level bad, because no one is really able to piece together everything all at once in a game of limited information) However, in skimming that game I see a lot of similarities in attitude here.His posts are mostly one liners and don't really qualify much of anything at all, and he hasn't cared to even attempt a stance yet. It is early in the game and there are certain things he's said that could be interpreted as town tells, which is why I want some more opinions on him rather than creating an echo-chamber (which unfortunately I think is probably inevitable now) As for WoS I wanted to see your opinion on him as he specifically targetted you and I also want to see what he's going to do. My opinion on him is not really full fledged yet and I want to see if he does what I think he's gonna do. I'll explain that later since time needs to pass before it is relevant. | ||
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On January 08 2014 09:04 justanothertownie wrote: You should really calm down. I don't know if you noticed it but have a look at the new moderation and behaviour part of the op you aren't doing your team (which ever it is) a favor by risking moderation like that. I don't actually care. I actually regret signing up, particularly if kush is town (which he probably is). I stayed away for a long time from the forum because I didn't have the time to play and I was tired of other people ruining games by signing up and doing jack shit all. I remember clearly he was one of them. It's pretty apparent his playstyle has not changed one bit. | ||
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On January 08 2014 09:06 kushm4sta wrote: k now this is starting to get fun for me because apparently im pissing you off. i posted "so whos scummy" because i was curious about who was scummy obviously. in fact all of my posts had a reason. I was telling you my thoughts about the game. If you dont think they are sufficient then say that, but there is no excuse to call me a fuck, to call me cancerous. sir that play is illegal and it would bring me great pleasure if you were modkilled. good, then I will be modconfirmed town. | ||
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I probably would not come back to play for an even longer time. | ||
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On January 08 2014 09:17 kushm4sta wrote: why am i probably town WBG? 3/13 players are scum. There are 4 players in the thread posting things. Even you can't be this dumb. | ||
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If it wasn't apparent before it should be now. | ||
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He only enters now when he finds it opportune to attack me (after someone else already has done so) | ||
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##unvote ##vote Corazon | ||
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On January 08 2014 09:22 Corazon wrote: WBG: -asks me to be productive and post when i was being way more productive than him 1. Not a scumtell. 2. (not so?) Subtle way of saying "I'm town" On January 08 2014 09:22 Corazon wrote: -refuses to share his reads Obviously untrue for anyone actually reading the thread...which makes his last comment really ironic. On January 08 2014 09:22 Corazon wrote: -starts having a back and forth war with JAT for no reason Not a scumtell, inaccurate. On January 08 2014 09:22 Corazon wrote: -votes for kush then calls him town I don't even know why I'm responding to this shit On January 08 2014 09:22 Corazon wrote: This guy scum. Ok bro. I'm gonna go lurk for the next 8 hours cause I need some alcohol to deal with this. | ||
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On January 08 2014 09:27 Corazon wrote: It's hard to talk to you, WBG. You act like a giant dickwad when some disagrees with you. No. I acted like a dickwad to both you and JAT because you're both proving you can't fucking read. in your case it's probably because you're scum. Kush deserves mountains of shit for being a completely worthless player. | ||
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His complaint is that I've never heard of RL. My complaint is, don't fucking sign up for two games (or any at all) if you're going to, to quote him, "play like this." It's not our job to just "deal with it" and it's sad that the community does not do something to discourage it. | ||
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On January 08 2014 09:35 Corazon wrote: "I don't want to share any information without you sharing some first, even though you have already shared a page worth of filter" That's pretty scummy bro. You're trying to put the impetus on me to share (which I already had done) to give yourself an excuse for not having read the thread and to not share your opinions. A town player would be proactive and try to share their thoughts without going "you first". That's why this makes you scum. I've done this MULTIPLE times as town. In fact, I learned it from Foolishness. Sadly I don't have the self control not to post my opinion. It would have been a better idea on my part to just let things happen for another 12 hours before posting at all and just eat the flak for lurking later. That's what better players than me do and I am currently regretting not doing it. My style is to get people to contribute early because I think it's critical for town to be active early. Sadly if you're the only one doing it there's no point in it, really. Anyway, to prove that I think seeding your reads into the thread is a really stupid way to play: On May 22 2012 05:36 wherebugsgo wrote: yo stop seeding the thread with all your reads, particularly town reads. It doesn't accomplish anything and it can pigeonhole people, as often times reads are wrong. All my early votes in games are basically reasoned-often I just hide things and leave things on a need-to-know basis. That's just how I play. In fact, I specifically recall that Ver's guide talks about leaving things on a need-to-know basis. It's something I tend to break after a while because I can't help it, but I'm conscious of it. On December 10 2012 12:47 wherebugsgo wrote: alrighty. I've concluded from the current events that there's an 80% preliminary chance that Palmar is scum. Therefore I'm voting him, at least until he comes back and proves me otherwise. ##unvote ##vote Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=wherebugsgo&view=all On December 10 2012 16:59 wherebugsgo wrote: How many of them are there? How many scum are probably in this game? What did I say was my certainty on Palmar being scum? Don't force me to treat you like you're dumb. On December 10 2012 23:48 wherebugsgo wrote: Why would I comment on people I don't think are scum? I don't understand this line of questioning. On December 01 2012 15:17 wherebugsgo wrote: it's always amusing when on day 1, every time I roll town, I get the same shit for the same stupid reasons. There is a pattern to how I play town: I don't say anything useful for almost all of day 1 because on day 1 I like to observe. That's why my opening votes are usually intended to create reactions, and while they almost always are intentional and on pseudo-scum reads when I post them, my day 1 reads usually change very very quickly. It's also amusing that every time I roll scum no one calls me scum and then I get shot by some faggot 3rd party or a vigi who is scared of my scum play. On December 02 2012 05:03 wherebugsgo wrote: holy fucking shit I can't tell who's just bad and who's scum anymore On November 30 2012 12:42 wherebugsgo wrote: There's a stark difference between uselessness due to absence and uselessness due to a deliberate lack of contribution. And marv, I'm not convinced he's scum. Yet. And to elucidate why I quoted the last one: That's why active lurkers are scummy. | ||
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And Corazon says I don't read. | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:04 Corazon wrote: Stop trying to twist the facts. I'm talking about when you made the post saying you required contribution from me before you contributed. And you still haven't. Everything you have said in the past page is blatantly false. So blatant, in fact, that I don't even have to expend that much effort to show it. On January 08 2014 10:04 kushm4sta wrote: wbg I don't think im understanding your townread on me. because im talking right now that makes me town?? i have to talk sometime even if im scum, dont i? also if ive done enough for you to townread me then haven't i dont my work for the day pretty much.. if all the town gave you townreads then it would be easy to find scum. and yes i have overextended myself by mistake. i wasn't busy now I am. im sorry. It's more of the fact that I don't think scum would be that reactive to a single vote. I mean, it's certainly possible. I haven't seen you play scum afaik. It's just not likely at this point in time, and it really never was (but again, I didn't disclose that) Anyway, how could I think you are scum before you entered the thread? It was pretty patently obvious to anyone reading my posts that my intention was to discourage lurking. It's actually really sad that I had to make that clear, because it pretty much defeated the purpose of what I was trying to do. Also, the bolded is obviously not true at all. Even if I think you are town, others may not. In addition, if you just afk then I have to question whether I was right or not. Also, who's going to find scum? If every townie had your mentality then no one would ever find scum. I'm really trying hard not to be abrasive here but this is not rocket science and I have no idea why I am even bothering to explain this. This is very basic newbie guide stuff. In all honesty I should just link to the newbie guide or quote it any time someone asks something like this from now on. | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:09 iamperfection wrote: well im gonna say bugs is town considering he basically for the last few pages has told everyone to look at me and seems to care way to much if he were scum. Plus he did that thing were he says im picking up my ball and going home and decides to post anyways. That's a townie thing to do in my view as scum are more apt to try to have an excuse to leave the thread. that said chill out bugs lets catch scum but ill even do the work for you because yamato is scum. If you look at his filter there is nothing of value come join me on the wagon of justice ## Vote Yamato I always play my games through And I also have my own heaping doses of rage. Mostly cause I can't stand when people do really obviously dumb things. Have you looked at WoS or Cora at all? What makes yamato a better lynch or them a worse lynch? have you played with Corazon at all recently? What can you say about his play/what should be expected? | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:17 WaveofShadow wrote: Holy shitballs. I'd be inclined to thing WBG is scum for shitting the HELL out of this thread, but I don't know his play all that well honestly. Is he capable of 'caring' this much as town? Am I giving the past few pages as possible scumplay too much credence? I certainly do like a great deal of what has been said though, especially the lurker business because, you know, I say that shit all the FUCKING time. Anywho, I believe I promised a look into...JAT, was it? I can actually have a look into multiple people now and will be present for the rest of the evening so I'll do a whole bunch. Maybe I can get WBG to call me dumb too. I shit on threads regardless of alignment. You should also consider giving your opinion of Yamato. | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:20 Corazon wrote: It's easy for scum to fake that. His logic was not even good. He started calling me dumb because I asked him to actually contribute when he said he wouldn't until I did. He blatantly admitted to not have read the thread and he decided to attack kush, who at the time had 0 posts, and called him stupid until he did some random 180 and called kush town (while keeping his vote on him). He then OMGUSs me when I call him out for it. To me, it looks faked and it looks like he just wants to survive. I'm sorry, what? Most of this shit is just blatantly wrong or misleading. On January 08 2014 10:21 WaveofShadow wrote: Bring it, suckas. JAT: Until prodded endlessly by WBG, he contributed nothing to the thread besides the nitpicking of other people's posts and reads and providing none of his own. Not a huge fan of his posting thus far---a little too 'fence-sitty' for my liking but whateva. Iamp can I have a looky at you next? Yamato, please. I want to hear your thoughts on him. | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:23 iamperfection wrote: why are you asking my permission to do things wos? you seem to want to be as wishy washy as possible what do you think of this? On January 08 2014 10:21 Corazon wrote: Wait can someone explain to me why that post was scummy? I'm not too familiar on WoS' town play so I'm not sure what you two see in his post. On January 08 2014 10:23 Corazon wrote: Wow WoS. That post looks really bad. "I'm so townie Cora, obviously" | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:25 Corazon wrote: WBG I'm done interacting with you. Stop trying to hide the facts and lie about me. When you asked for contribution from me, I had already said some things about Yamato and had a few other posts. You either lied about me not contributing or you didn't read the thread. Which one is it? Your posts weren't contributions. Making one liners that are wrong or simple summaries are not contributions. When I asked you to elucidate any of your thoughts you refused to do so. Based on things you have said you have repeatedly proven that you are incapable of reading or comprehending the things you read, which means that even if you were town I'd have no use for your opinions. That's why I refused to give you anything. If iamp were in the thread at that point I might have disclosed some of what I was thinking, given that he actually seems to have valid opinions of his own (and if he's scum, then we are fucked) | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:26 justanothertownie wrote: I started the conversation with bugs you know... I was wondering when someone would point this out :p | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:30 WaveofShadow wrote: Conversation yes, good contribution imo no. You offered exactly zero reads or opinion of your own aside from those that served to pick on others' posts and logic. Very VERY easy to do as scum. I dunno 'bout you yet. While this is true, there are other, more important things that I think you might be missing. Do you actually think JAT is scum or would you say that his lack of reads is disconcerting? And if you had to name an alternative to yamato who would it be? It's in your best interest to be forthcoming with your reads, since your last few posts haven't looked so good if you are town. | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:42 WaveofShadow wrote: 'Cause he still hasn't done dicks since, and like I said yesterday, if you were reading, one vote two hours into D1 does not a threat make. I fully support anyone who would like to join me on this wagon, btw. Uh....don't threaten me. I don't respond to threats. When exactly in this game have I been anything BUT forthcoming? Did I try to hold back my reads at any point? Because I sure as hell can't think of ANYONE who would do that, right? I've already said I'm not sure about JAT. I don't like his neutrality, I'd maybe lean slightly scum right now but I haven't had the chance to do a dive of a whole bunch of other people. Yall are too busy jumping down my throat right as I return to the thread so I haven't had time for much else. Okay, fair enough. I'm just saying that because I think the votes today are probably going to be split between you and yamato unless something changes pretty drastically. If you are town then it's obviously in your best interest to stay active and provide your reads. You've been doing that so far, I have no complaints on that front. It's just that a couple of your posts over the past page have been somewhat scummy. In overall context they're definitely not the worst, though. I'd have to agree that Yamato is a better choice than you for now, particularly since both kush and iamp sort of reflex voted you. | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:46 iamperfection wrote: ill be back in an hour or so. when you're back I'd love to hear a yamato/WoS comparison. I prefer yamato right now over WoS. Do you think a scum WoS would be this active in clarifying his thoughts on different players? What experience do you have with WoS? I think I played with WoS once but my last game was like 8-9 months ago. It'd be nice if people can point me to instances of his meta where he does or does not do what he is doing now. I'm going to look into it myself but obviously it's easier with other people who already have that experience at hand. Lastly, I'd also like to hear what you think of Corazon. My initial impression was simply that he's bad. I seem to recall reading his posts in another game when I was lurking the forum and I think I got a similar impression then. However he keeps saying things that are blatantly untrue. Have you seen him play scum before? What does his town play look like? | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote: He doesn't just [i]talk[/] about policy. He is throwing it left and right. As I said, it is entirely possible he is doing it as scum and the rage is faked, but if he's scum, to me it's for a different reason than why you are. Sorry JAT, call it shitlogic if you want but that's my stance on the matter. I see differences in your posting styles and your methods of attack even if the content may run similar at points. everyone has this problem with me, because I am "good" at scum. If you read any of my past games (and you can take my word on it if you want to, though if you really wanted to be thorough you can actually go back and check) I rarely, if ever, take any suspicion on day 1 as scum. It's often to the point where not even a single person will vote me on day 1. I am not afraid of pressure or anything like that as scum but I purposely make my scum play "townish" and I will throw in heaps of aggression or "unexpected" scum play just to throw people off, but I am very self conscious about how much pressure I am under and generally on day 1 I am under none as scum-I don't let it get there because I spend the time coordinating my team instead of posting lots. + Show Spoiler [wherebugsgo] + TL Mafia L Town Vanilla Survived TL Mafia XLIV Town Tracker Killed Night 4 Cosmic Horror Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 4 Resurrection Mafia Town Holy Priest Survived Some Mafia Game Town Jailkeeper Killed Night 2 My Little Pony Mafia Mafia Ninja Survived Lord of the Rings Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 1 TL Mafia XLV Town Miller Lynched Day 5 Pick Your Power Interesting! Town CPR Doctor Killed Night 3 Team Melee Mini Mafia - Couples Therapy Mafia Vanilla Lynched Day 3 Steamship Liquidia (TL Mafia 46) Town Vanilla Killed Night 3 Mini Mafia X Mafia Vanilla Survived Responsibility Mafia! Mafia Day Vigilante Killed Night 2 BCs Arkham City Mafia Ras al Ghul Killed Night 2 Hammer Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Lynched Day 1 Storm Mafia Mafia Medic Lynched Day 5 Kaller Game Town George W Bush Lynched Day 1 A Game of Thrones Mafia Third Party Littlefinger Victory Death Factory Mafia 2 Town Vengeance Toy Killed Night 2 Im a cop you idiot mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 1 Liar Game Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 3 TL Mafia LV Town Vanilla Killed Day 3 Magic: The Gathering Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 4 Pick Your Poison Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 1 Bureaucracy Mafia! Town Judge Killed Night 1 PTP3 - Pikachu's Revenge Third Party Mewtwo Killed Night 2 Paranoia Mafia Town Mason Lynched Day 2 Hero Mini Mafia Town Jailkeeper Killed Night 1 Dessert Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Endgamed Night 5 Personality Mafia 2 Third Party chezinu Lynched Day 1 Mad Men Mafia Town Miller Killed Night 2 TL Mafia LVIII Town 1-shot Detective Killed Day 2 Smurf Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Lynched Day 3 If you note I've played mafia 6 times. In minis, 3 times; in all of those minis I survived to at least lylo. I won two of them by living to endgame. In the third, I lived to lylo, finally got lynched and then our team lost because I was basically the only one playing (it was a hydra mini, 7 town hydras 2 mafia hydras, so 18 players total. Endgame was controversial because of the way the last lynch went.) In the other three games, one was a game in which everyone was a vig. I got shot by a spam vigi in Responsibility on N2. In Arkham a 3P who had the ability to make himself look like anything made himself look like mafia. He then chose to shoot me N2 because I tried to get him lynched on D2, but it was highly unlikely that I ever would have been lynched that game based on how it was progressing. In Storm Mafia, similarly to Couples Therapy I was fairly safe until my teammate died d4, and then our entire team got lynched 4 days in a row. I also played in a couple others that are not on this list, Space Station and (I think?) The Game. I was definitely mafia in SS mafia and I was never suspected d1 or ever, really. I was shot by a vig in the town circle after the rest of the players in the game had basically been confirmed to be town and my team had already been decimated. Fact of the matter is that I take a shit ton more lynch attention as town/3p than scum. I really didn't get lynched as town all that often until my more recent games, though. | ||
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On January 08 2014 10:54 WaveofShadow wrote: Kush is...well kush, and as he has made people aware of already in this game, he plays just to annoy and troll people, and he thinks that voting me/getting me lynched at this point will make me mad, just as he thought provoking you would be fun. He pulls this 'asking for modkills' shit every game afaik....his play is just so ridiculous and yet there are some people who continue to praise it.... As for iamp, he's a solid player and I expect him to come around at some point. The reflex vote...meh it's still early, though that does remind me I did want to look into him. I'm pretty aware that kush is one of the worst players on the forum. I had hoped that changed but it doesn't seem like it. On January 08 2014 11:15 WaveofShadow wrote: Iamp: So he was actually the first person to pick out yamato for the stuff I mentioned, real early too. Then even tosses a vote on him (before switching it and making me have a sad ). I see the targeting of yamato as one of two things: - Either a scum Iamp who sees a yamato who has decided not to contribute a great deal or of any sort of real quality and an easy mislynch potential - Town iamp Problem is now, not the fact that he voted for me per se (since many of you found faults in my return, but whatevs), but more that word that was used 'reflex' vote. For whatever reason I am often viewed as an easy mislynch target D1 as well; the only person who has EVER succeeded in pushing it through on me was a town Rayn---and that's probably over at LEAST 7-8 attempts on a D1 mislynch that I've gotten out of. I am NOT an easy mislynch so the question then becomes does scum iamp know this or not, does he care, or is he town? Honestly...I think I'd lean towards town here because I see similar thought process to mine (his technically came first), and is now caught up in what he believes to be a good potential scum target for my return posting I seriously doubt that he is scum based on his posting tone, but I agree that it is possible. Pretty much everyone in the game is up in the air for now because of how little most people have contributed. | ||
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On January 08 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote: Bugs what do you make of Cheese v Artanis that everybody seemed to want to comment on a while ago? seemed to me like Artanis had a natural focus on Cheesecake (sort of how i have a natural focus on Corazon) simply because they were interacting. I could sort of follow the conversation from both perspectives; i.e. if you were to pretend to be town Artanis or town Cheesecake, do you think their actions make sense? For the most part they seem to make sense. I haven't read into Cheesecake too heavily, but as far as Artanis goes the major thing that concerns me is his lack of presence today. It probably doesn't mean anything, but if he's still not present tomorrow I'd be worried. His posting tone so far seems fine to me. Another thing is that he sort of deflected giving an opinion on Yamato (IIRC he said something about not having played with scum yamato in a long time) and a bit more minor is that I don't really agree with his opinions, but I think they can reasonably be justified from his perspective. Sadly it's a "let's wait and see" on him, Cheese, yamato...basically everyone in the filter list that is not a townread to me for now. I would rank yamato at the top of the scum list, though. | ||
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On January 08 2014 11:35 iamperfection wrote: wave didnt run away and is at least posting thoughts so lets kill yamato ## Unvote ##vote yamato Cora, on the other hand, did (and really didn't post much of anything while he was here anyway). I'm interested to see what happens if I switch as well. WoS will probably switch too, so yamato will have some pretty serious momentum before anyone else arrives back in the thread. ##unvote ##vote yamato | ||
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On January 08 2014 11:44 WaveofShadow wrote: Can I ask you bugs, what changed between this post: and now? Oh, now I am just going to hold things back without saying anything about that fact. If my reads need to change publicly they will, but as long as someone who is getting lynched who I am okay with getting lynched, I'm not really going to hold back from talking about them. I'll also freely discuss other alternatives. Mostly though when there's more people around who seem to be interested in scumhunting there's less incentive to hold everything back, but that doesn't mean I am putting forth everything either. | ||
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We need to consolidate on yamato as long as he continues to be worthless. He's not completely useless as town and it's incredibly scummy for him to come back only when pressured simply to post one line and leave again. As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. | ||
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it's important that people look at the way players enter and reenter the thread. Yamato's reentrance is scummy as shit. iamp's is towny as hell. This is pretty easy to see, but there are instances where this is quite difficult. Today, I didn't see any of the following four: Cheesecake Artanis gumshoe mkfuba From towniest to scummiest, in that order. Both CC and Artanis look fine, and gumshoe is a bit iffy to me, but mkfuba in particular looks awful. I know he tends to play what I like to call "scummy town" but his posts in particular are very on-the-fency and generally quite nebulous. His only attack so far has been on Cora, and it was quite weak. After his initial small amount of activity he has since disappeared. What's important is that we note the reentrance into the thread of all 4 of these players. If you are around when they come back I implore you to question them. I will do so myself if I'm awake at the time. | ||
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On January 08 2014 14:02 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think this is a right way to go, because yamato already promised to contribute. When someone does that you leave them alone to make them feel comfortable (in case they are scum) and focus on other people. If yamato does not contribute, he claims scum and we can vote him at the end of the day. If we vote for yamato now, regardless of his alignment, noone else is pressured and while townies should not stop contributing even when there is a clear thread sentiment that's unfortunately not the general line of thinking. Placing votes on yamato will kill the discussion to some extent, people are more likely to contribute if they are under pressure. yamato was already under pressure and promised to contribute, that pressure has achieved what it's purpose was. Can you give me an example of where the bolded has ever worked? There have been tons of times where town has backed off upon the first hint of resistance. Yamato did something incredibly scummy-he reentered the thread and promptly disappeared. If he was town he'd be here arguing for his innocence and providing us with proper reads. It's much easier to read someone when they are actively present rather than afk. As at the very least a decent player yamato knows that. I've seen him play town myself. If he's not making sense or contributing to town he needs to die, and taking our votes off and moving them just because he gave us a promise is not a good way to ensure that we'll actually have the ability to kill him when the lynch deadline comes around. | ||
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On January 08 2014 14:07 raynpelikoneet wrote: bugs what do you think about this: ? sounds like a dumb opinion to me | ||
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On January 08 2014 14:16 thrawn2112 wrote: The problem with that explanation isn't that it's illogical, because it makes sense. The problem is that it's a standard, cut and paste answer that can be thrown in any time a scum player wants to justify not pushing a certain lynch. As town you can still hold that opinion that rayn shouldn't be lynched on D1 but you should be able to form a read based on D1 play. In other words, "lynching X is bad on D1 so I'm not gonna worry about him" is a scummy substitute for a read actually it's worse than that, it's akin to setting up a lynch for later. Let's pretend he's scum for a second and he wants to push me as a lynch today. Assuming I don't die and his team doesn't find rayn a threat, he'll just leave rayn alive, right? So then let's say I do end up dying at some point, then all he has to do is turn around on his old read of rayn and push that on a later day. Easy pickings. I do this all the time as scum. The problem is that this requires an assumption about Corazon's play that I am not comfortable with making right now. I'm not so sure how to read him atm. | ||
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On January 08 2014 14:22 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay so what do you expect the town gains if we all put our votes on yamato now? He has done what he has done, that does not change. some people find it scummy some people don't. That does not change regardless of how many votes are on him. However putting votes on him does not allow the town to pressure other people. I don't care if this has worked or not worked in other games because i can tell you for sure i will not forget arguments and people's promises and i sure as hell will confromt yamato when he comes back to the thread. Why this is incredibly scummy thinking is because of there are at least you and iamp in the game who are generally considered better players than me. Also yamato, Artanis, WoS, thrawn etc.. *Notice this is not supposed to be an insult to anyone and does not represent my thoughts because i obviously think i am the best mafia on the planet*. If i am generally not considered to be in top 2 of players in this game stating that i should be policy lynched on D3 if i am alive is a way of saying "i refuse to give my opinions on rayn and i will already set up an arbitary read on him regardless of what he does - a read that becomes "valid" at some point of the game". When I say consolidate I don't expect the entire town's votes to be on yamato. If you noticed, no one has moved their votes in a while. It's notoriously hard to lynch scum, especially day 1. Yamato's been taking suspicion and a decent amount of votes because he's definitely the best choice we've got, but it's amply clear that we're dealing with a pretty average (read: lurky) town. I count current participation over the past 12-16 hours at something like 5 or 6/13. That's pretty bad. I also don't think that moving votes on yamato means that people will just disappear or stop talking. My vote is on yamato and I'm more than open to talk about other things. Same goes for several of the other players in the thread. As long as there are players willing to discuss things, discussion will be had. Anyone who simply shows up, drops a vote and disappears should definitely be scrutinized, but luckily no one has done that yet. I think that's a really good sign for now. As for the second part, I think I agree with you after reading a few pages from his filter in Back to Basics (holy shit his filter is long in that game). He definitely is not a completely dumb player, and I don't think he is anywhere near as thick as he is coming off in this game. The statement he made about policy lynching you doesn't really make sense. Even if he doesn't think there are other players in the game, it's surprising that he would be so against my use of policy on kush but be completely fine with advancing policy himself. That's a decently important self-contradiction, IMO. In the Back to Basics game he was far less defensive and more coherent in his thoughts, even under pressure. He's been under no significant pressure yet; the main wagon is Yamato, not him, and until a few hours ago it was really just me and WoS sort of prodding him a bit. His reads are garbage this game and not well reasoned at all, whereas in the other game he'd say things like this: + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 04:45 Corazon wrote: TBH both Mocsta and Rayn look worse from this: Rayn from his random vote changes and Mocsta from his confirmation bias and his really bad conspiracy theories. I really do not like Rayn martyring...tbh the concept of martyring has been beaten to death and I think he's just using it as a ploy to gain town cred. Rayn, pick a lynch and stay with it. I don't want to lynch you but if you continue to vote for everyone in the thread then I will have no choice but to vote for you. On November 22 2013 02:05 Corazon wrote: This post is an example of confirmation bias. I can't copy/paste because I'm on my phone but the two posts above this in your filter are also examples of confirmation bias. Rayn's behavior was not acceptable but I don't think he should be lynched today for it. The problem with this town is that they fixate on someone's behavior in a very small time window and forget about everything else they have done in the game. This was a problem when people continued to attack me for my exchange with sci (Including you, Moc) for almost 30 hours without thinking about what I have done since then. It is the same with Rayn: if you took a look at the big picture and analyze Rayn's filter throughout the entire game, would you still think he is scum? I would not say that he is "100% a good lynch candidate" upon looking at his entire filter. My phone is about to die. Be back later. On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote: When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town. I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game. That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". Not especially the last post I quoted. When he feels that he has been misrepresented he doesn't whine about it (maybe one can attribute the fact to it being a GM game, but I doubt that's the true reason) but instead he specifically calls out the comment in question and challenges it. Like a townie would-directly and specifically. In this game he's sort of just been nebulously whining about "lies" without actually giving a concrete example of it. He repeatedly mentioned my "refusal" to provide reads but that was almost wholly specific to the beginning and was out of context of the rest of my posts. Outside of that when I've seen him accuse WoS and rayn of twisting his words he's never once, as far as I could tell, brought up a real example of it. I'll take a looksee at the database for any scum games of his tomorrow morning but based on that filter skim I'm leaning more toward scum now. | ||
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On January 08 2014 14:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: So everyone who's been around (WoS, iamp, bugs mainly); Is there a reason you guys did not comment on my case on thrawn at all? While i changed my vote that does not mean the case becomes invalid. I don't really think he is scum. I don't have great reasons for that but I would say there are far better choices for lynch today. I'd rank Yamato, fuba, and cora all above him. | ||
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He comes back and posts a bunch of stuff on Cora and WoS. The stuff on Cora is fine, the stuff on WoS is also mostly fine but probably not exactly entirely true in the context of the game (read: it sounds like a filtercase) and the stuff on iamperfection, while partly true, is...lol. The amount of evidence there to call iamp scum is honesty vastly underwhelming compared to yamato's description of Cora's play. Yet, the most important part is that Yamato voted iamp. But he did one thing, and put it into spoilers. The host did not count the vote. If Yamato were reading the thread and truly were interested in killing iamperfection, wouldn't he revote after there were two indications that his vote had not been counted? There was both a host message and a vote count. Smells like he's not reading the thread. | ||
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If he truly were interested in killing iamp he'd be scrambling for us to voteswitch, yet he basically did juuuust enough to throw suspicion off himself. The day ends in like 9 hours, surely Yamato is not dumb enough to have missed that. So, why did he pop back in, vote, and then leave? No push to convince people that they are wrong about him and, more importantly, wrong about iamperfection? If he were reading the thread wouldn't he know how townish several people have labeled iamp (I myself said something about it). If he actually cared, he'd definitely have noticed that his vote didn't count. Instead he just disappeared right after posting. That's something scum do. How many times have you all played scum to have a teammate say, "Oh hey, just make a post so we can get the heat off you." Making a case and then not following through on it is what scum do, not town. | ||
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You responded so fast to me that it suggests you've been actively lurking this entire time. That's even worse, since it means rather than neglect/being afk (which would actually make you look more townie-if you legitimately did not have time) you actually knew that your vote didn't count, you did not respond to iamperfection, and you CHOSE not to further your case. All things that are even scummier than my original points because it displays that you were present yet unwilling to push your case. The fact that your best argument against what I am saying is your mere presence in the thread is pathetic. | ||
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Now ofc I'm defending that on the basis that I am town and it makes sense from my perspective. I'd probably do a similar thing as scum but I think that only speaks to my play and is not really indicative at all of iamp's alignment (which, based on the other things he's done, is likely to be town IMO. If he's not, it'd be really bad, but there's no indication that we need to be paranoid) | ||
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I want to wait on the flip but fuba's reentrance conveniently came shortly after Yamato posted. He said Yamato "made sense" which indicates a cursory opinion. Sure, Yamato filterdove three players and did nothing much more than a summary of the scummy plays of those three players. You could literally pick anyone in the game and do exactly the same thing and the case would make sense. How do I know that? Cause I do it myself all the fucking time as scum. And people will actually lynch otherwise really obvious townies if all you do is repeatedly reiterate the same scummy points. In this case fuba really did not provide anything other than a one line justification for voting Cora over Yamato. Pretty weak either way, but worse is that he didn't do any sort of following up on his post (and no one held him accountable to his opinions by questioning him, either) | ||
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Why was thrawn not in there? | ||
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We need to get people onto Yamato. I'll be around sporadically, but I'm going to lunch and a movie so I don't know how much time I can commit for the next few hours. I should hopefully be done a few hours before lynch. I highly encourage everyone to read my two posts on Yamato following his "vote" on iamperfection. I'm on my phone, otherwise I'd link them. We need to consolidate on Yamato now, before it becomes too hectic close to the lynch to have anything reasonably thought-out or predictable. We need to be prepared for Yamato to be kicking and screaming regardless of alignment. How he does it will determine his alignment. | ||
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On January 09 2014 00:16 iamperfection wrote: it will get done more importantly what movie are you seeing. I saw Frozen :p When I came back my door was frozen -_- On January 09 2014 01:11 iamperfection wrote: dont fucking sign up dude. You basically said well I'm not going to read the thread. Fuck you On January 09 2014 01:13 WaveofShadow wrote: It's shit like this. Nobody would ever support a switch to him to punish this kind of play but FUCK I think at this point it's best to just pretend he doesn't exist. I think he'll understand when people start listing him under players they'd rather not play with for wisdom of the crowds or whatever that is. He's more or less just trolling. Since we have a better chance at killing mafia by not killing him, we have no choice but to ignore him. On January 09 2014 04:36 thrawn2112 wrote: wbg are you here? I'm about to leave for this phase and would like your thoughts on yamato Nothing he has done so far has changed my read. He basically made a reentrance version 2.0 and then has stuck around to throw around useless one liners ever since. He's not bothered pushing his stance all that hard. Corazon looks pretty scummy too but in my eyes their alignments are divorced. I think we can kill either Cora or Yamato today but I do not think that the other should be left alone after that. (i.e. they are scummy regardless of what the other's alignment is, which is why I don't think we should read into the fact that they are voting each other) Neither has truly bothered to give a whole-hearted push of the other, too, which is disconcerting on both ends. Do you find it odd that yamato has found the time to be around but consistently does not do what one would expect town yamato to do? Do you think, even if it is a time-issue, that town yamato would act the way he's currently acting? I see a lot of whining from both Corazon and Yamato. Neither of them seem to be trying very hard to get their reads lynched, nor do they seem to be willing to discuss things rather than just throw up their hands and accuse others in very vague terms. Yamato's attack on iamp would have made sense from a town perspective if and only if it was strongly motivated. It was so weak, however, that I could really only make sense of it from a scum perspective. Do you think a town yamato would expend so little effort on pushing iamp if he truly thought that his "secret read" was so important? I got the impression that he wanted to gauge the reaction of other players to his "idea" and to see what would happen if he pushed iamp. I don't get the impression that he actually strongly believed iamp was ever scum. If he had, as he himself noted that his vote didn't count, I think he would have both revoted and encouraged the rest of town to flip the vote. Do you agree? | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:02 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: that still indicates that you think cora is town... w.e. semantics. dropped. semantically it's actually ambiguous. From the context though it's pretty apparent that he meant that they've proved that they're a detriment to town (period), not that they're a detriment despite being town. Which makes sense, they both are a huge detriment to town no matter what their alignments are. | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:05 yamato77 wrote: WBG, I gauge reactions of the thread as town before voting. Your point is not alignment indicative. Sure, everyone gauges reactions, but the manner matters. Most townies will often confidently push their lynch, even if sometimes they are not truly completely confident, because if their argument is persuasive, then it will gain momentum on its own merits. I do not believe that you are an exception to this. You pushed a weak case on a player who was obviously not being suspected by many players, if any at all. That he was unsuspected was pretty obvious even though no one actually outright said so. As town, if I had a dissenting opinion and I thought it was important enough to vote the target more than 24 hours into the day I'd probably come back yelling at people to not become complacent and let someone like iamp slip through the cracks as "towny enough". Yet, you didn't do that. You even knew the vote wasn't valid and you didn't bother reaffirming it. A person's vote in the game is pretty much the only thing we can truly hold them accountable for, because regardless of what they say the vote is what ultimately matters. This is just basics, anyone who has played the game as much as you should know it. I don't think you're a bad player and thus the avenue you took regarding iamp is really scummy. For anyone who is interested, try reading these following posts and try to guess Yamato's alignment in each. I've pulled almost all of these from day 1s of games in an attempt to keep them mostly homogeneous, though they may come from games of different sizes and types. + Show Spoiler + yamato77 wrote: I'm really only interested in figuring out the alignments of Marv and Hapa, because if they are town they will figure the rest of you out and we'll win the game. If they are scum we lynch them and the game becomes far easier to figure out. So forgive me for ignoring everyone else, my posts will be focused on them. First of all, the way Marv entered the thread earlier today acting superior is a "holier than thou" attitude that I would not expect from town Marv towards two players he has played with so much in the past (Oats and myself). Mind you, his interactions with us basically served no purpose other than to establish his early activity, discredit my early vote, and to shit up the thread with Oats. He doesn't think either of us are mafia. Plenty of mafia motivation in his actions there. Since then, of course, he's been pro-town, but I know he's more than capable of that for at least a few hours. What is even more perplexing to me is that Hapa, when questioned about the alignment of Marv, specifically said that this did not look like a "holier-than-thou" scum-Marv. If Hapa was town and Marv scum, he may be the only one well-versed enough in the wiles of mafia Marvellosity to truly push his lynch, but this shows that he's either not reading Marv very closely or has pre-decided what he thinks of Marv with some information from out of the thread. Either way, this is what a mafia Hapa would be like regarding Marv as either alignment. I may yet be wrong and this could be attributable to Hapa being up late and tired from all the awesome DotA we played, but it's something to note. Aside from those interactions, I've yet to be particularly impressed by the scumhunting efforts of either player, but it is still in the first half of D1 and there is time yet to do better. Hapa going after debears was not what I usually see out of him as town. If anyone wants to talk about the alignment of these two, feel free to respond. I will be on thread later. + Show Spoiler + yamato77 wrote: Mattchew, what exactly is a "sandroba type player" to you? And how does he differ from Marv in the early game? I agree that catching Marv early is hard, but I don't know how that makes him different from Sandro. Is sandro easy to catch as mafia or something? Also, I don't understand how you think playing with the assumption that marv = town is a good idea. While he's often pro-town as mafia or scum, wouldn't you not want to let yourself be influenced by marv's opinions on the alignments of players if he is mafia? + Show Spoiler + On February 15 2013 16:20 yamato77 wrote: Let me walk you through my thought process on Zess, since that seems to be what people think I'm not explaining. When someone starts the game as he did, voting a player under "random" pretensions, I immediately am inclined to think they're mafia. It's a very dumb way to look like you're playing around and being funny with the rest of town, when in reality you're starting what sometimes becomes a trend, establishing an early atmosphere of voting people on a whim, for almost no reason at all. It is in these types of environments that mafia thrive. And indeed, it did turn into a trend as soon as he threw his vote on me for something completely townie, and barely justifying it. How is me trying to figure out people's alignments scummy? To be clear, when I "insinuated" that Mattchew/Syllo were mafia, I was in the process of attempting to get information that would lead me toward their alignment. i consider the possibility that they are mafia, because in some way, what they're doing could come from a mafia perspective. In fact, since that time, the information I've been able to ascertain has told me the opposite, they seem town. Why does he want to paint me scum so quick for this? And indeed, when I indirectly ask about his read, he says he hasn't called me scum. What sense does this make? If anything, it only serves to strengthen my bias against him, that he's not playing to figure out my alignment, he's playing to stir shit up with me and fuck off with his reads. His other "reads" have been very noncommittal, especially with regards to Marv, where he says he "agrees with Toad" (who has voted for Marv) and then lists a whole bunch of reasons he isn't jumping on it. Waiting for the opportune moment, I presume? Perhaps I haven't really explained myself thoroughly up to this point, but when you look at him from my perspective, Zess' play makes no sense for a townie. The fact that he's continued to be spammy and contentless since my early vote on him only serves to steel my resolve. Dude is mafia. Many of them only really make sense in context, though (the previous one might be one of those) With that said, check out his filter from this game as well: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=373946&user=yamato77&view=all Notice the tone, try to put yourself in the shoes of the player from both alignments. What makes more sense? The timestamps are also helpful, as they give an insight into activity level. | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##unvote ##Vote: Mr.Cheesecake So remember how I said we'd have trouble consolidating? | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:28 yamato77 wrote: Look dude, I made the vote to see what he'd do. If he did nothing else in response, I would have been fine lynching him. But he didn't, and his response was townish, and I dropped a case I admittedly didn't think was that strong after seeing how the thread responded to it. End of story. Meta comparisons are not strong here. I am not playing like I have as town in the past. So what you're saying is.... let me live another day, and I won't be useless? Sadly I don't really think I have a choice, but assuming we're both alive tomorrow and you have yet to be of use I'll probably come hunting for your head. | ||
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Assuming we leave yamato alive till tomorrow, which in the end is probably not the worst thing in the world if he is indeed scum (but obviously great if he's town) then I would much rather we kill Corazon over cheesecake. I would not mind killing kush either but that's almost out of spite for him being so utterly bad. | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: No, Cheesecake has to be mafia for his shitty reads and discrediting without any reasoning. Other than that he has done nothing in this game but had an argument with Artanis, then he had no read on him, then he wanted to lynch him, then he said it was in fact a conversation starter, and then he wanted to lynch him again for no reasoning. While everything you have said is true... it's also true about several other players in the game. In fact, neither Artanis nor CC looked particularly great in their back and forth. Neither side was particularly convincing of the other's scumminess. It's true of fuba too. What has he done? Or Corazon? Or Yamato? Or gumshoe? Or JAT? You could make an equally strong argument to kill any of these players. Sadly we need more time to analyze most people like them because we spent all day focusing on yamato and corazon - those were the players we pressured. Neither player reacted well to the pressure but we can't kill one of the others now, it's too late for today. Today it has to be one of Corazon/Yamato, and if it's not Yamato then I will not support any lynch other than Corazon. So what will it be? | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:36 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I've been trying to do anything in this cesspool, I wasn't around for a day because a friend died in a motorcycle accident. You were in extractor and i wasn't active there either. I'm sick of justifying my "not contributing anything" bullshit when that's the reason I wasn't there. It's not alignment indicative, and im fucking town. I'm sorry for your loss, and I don't want to dictate how you grieve, but it's honestly completely irrelevant to the game. If it's a serious detriment to your activity then you shouldn't be playing, but that's just my opinion (i.e. hopefully you get replaced) | ||
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The few players who are here post a metric fuckton, but it doesn't help when the participation rate is 50% and of that rate, half is trash posting. Pretty much everyone is equally at fault for the trashposting, but there's not much we can do about the inactivity other than simply wait it out. Which unfortunately usually just makes it worse. Double lynch would be fucking awesome. | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:41 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I'm interested in being active now, and I think JAT / Artanis are good picks for scum. So tell me what you think of either of those lynches, bugs? I think I've been amply clear about my opinion and honestly any alternative is off the table. It's not my fault you were not around to participate, so unless you can convince me why lynching cora/yamato is not a good idea or why lynching the others is a better idea then your chance of budging my vote is pretty much 0. yamato says he is demoralized, Cora is trying to buddy me now, the afkers continue to be afk and we have pretty much no cohesion because no one in this town listens to common sense. We have a few hours to actually consolidate. I was hoping we would've had more contribution from the less active players by now but clearly that isn't the case. The flip will hopefully give us insight into what really happened today, and I really don't like saying that. | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote: - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? | ||
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That's not how this game works. You can't just fucking lynch someone and then not accept that you messed up. | ||
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for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote: Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. Someone's reads being bad or badly reasoned are not enough to call them scum and lynch them unless they have a history of being good AND if the reasoning is clearly bad despite there being good evidence for them to have good reads in the same situation. There are plenty of townies who don't often catch that many scum who often don't get lynched despite being called bad every game, because you don't just lynch someone for having bad reads. You also don't nonchalantly say that it's their fault for getting lynched after you fuck up and lynch them for the wrong reasons, cause it's the voters' faults. | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:55 raynpelikoneet wrote: No bugs, that's not how the game works. When a townie gets lynched it's their fault, not anyone else's. They were the scummiest person in the game because they had the most votes at the end of the day. holy fuck I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not this is jubjub level logic. This is how you'll never improve, if every time you lynch a townie you blame the guy for getting lynched instead of asking yourself why your goddamn read was wrong. | ||
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On January 09 2014 05:59 justanothertownie wrote: You asked a question and I answered it. If we lynched CC right now pretty much the only thing we would learn is his alignment. EXACTLY I'm trying to avoid frothing at the mouth at rayn's vote on CC for precisely this fucking reason. We don't achieve anything by lynching CC now, the vote is fucking wasted because we spent all day pressuring TWO OTHER PLAYERS. How do you people take so long to fucking understand this?? I've been saying we need to consolidate for over 12 hours now. The town has gone to shit because of the few players we have they are completely unwilling to listen and cooperate. Instead we have a shitfest like every other minute. Killing Corazon will probably rid ourselves of a significant amount of the shitposting, given that he's managed to piss off myself, rayn, WoS, and basically everyone else he's talked to. Killing kush would probably accomplish a similar thing but he's actually easier to ignore and harder to read. | ||
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On January 09 2014 06:03 raynpelikoneet wrote: I dunno, when i started playing mafia i read Palmar's comment on who to blame when a townie gets mislynched. I have been mislynched exactly 4 times in my ~55 town games, in 3 of them i basically intentionally killed myself because i did not want to play anymore and one time i could not convince the town i was town because someone made a case on me after i lynched mafia on D2 "you must be bussing, so we should kill you and then we should kill the mafia's counter-wagon, obviously you are both bussing, no other option kthxbye". I could not argue against that shitlogic because everyone in town used the same shitlogic. Whose fault? My fault. Sure, when you yourself analyze your own play you should ask yourself why you got lynched. The blame is not completely on one side or the other, but statistically speaking the onus should be on the voters because they carry more power than the single guy getting lynched. The guy getting lynched is one voice. It's one thing if the lynched player completely failed his own defense, but in retrospect you almost always have multiple townies on lynches. It's just the way the game works. Also Palmar is historically one of the few, if not the only veteran players on the forum that I know has that opinion. Any good mafia player will tell you to reevaluate your reads after the flip because playing the blame game when the flip happens is a good way to get the town into a downward spiral. You can't blame the player who got lynched because that does not accomplish anything and it does not change anything. Any effort gone into blaming the player would be much better spent actually analyzing what happened and what went wrong, and potentially any pushes from scum that helped cause the lynch in the first place. As a thought experiment think about what would happen if you have two players who are roughly equal at arguing against one another, but on opposite alignments. This actually seems to occur fairly often in games. I myself have been involved as scum in pretty tense lynch situations. In my first scum game, my team and I managed to prevent me from being lynched by one vote. In almost every other scum game I have gotten into a fight with another townie and successfully gotten him lynched, or helped my team lynch the main wagon (or even control the lynch completely by making only townies the suspects) by exerting my influence. In one game the lynch was between me+Radfield hydra and a hydra of sandroba and chaoser, IIRC, in which sandro+chaoser got lynched. Was it their fault for getting lynched? Definitely not, and I would say especially not given how hard I worked to get them lynched. This is a bit long-winded but my point is that scum strive for mislynches, that's how they win the game, so often when you have the urge to blame a townie you need to realize that there's lots of information even in a mislynch that will point to where you as an incorrect townie voter went astray and where scum capitalized on these mistakes to carry a mislynch through. The blame game only serves to hide this information so you'll be more likely to repeat yourself again come the next lynch. That's why saying things like "well, we lynch him, and then if we're wrong we just lynch someone else on our list" is fucking stupid, because it's just a very blind and irresponsible way to play the game | ||
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On January 09 2014 06:07 justanothertownie wrote: I don't understand you. You posted the question - I answered exactly the way you think yourself and I am scummy for it. uh what I didn't call you scummy. Your self fixation is starting to bother me a bit. ##unvote ##vote Corazon I need to think over some things. Probably should start taking notes as well. I'll be back after the flip, but I'll be checking in on the thread periodically until then. | ||
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On January 09 2014 06:19 WaveofShadow wrote: I don't feel nearly as good about lynching Cora for policy reasons than i do kush, so at the very least I'd like to try and come to terms with it if I'll be switching my vote or even better, actually determine if he is scum. (yeah I get that the shitposting would be toned down a little but again, knowing he's actually attempting to contribute and post, despite enraging so many of us makes it harder for me. By comparison kush manages to enrage me by barely posting/what little posting he does.) What it comes down to for me is mainly his behaviour here. The weird tunneling and nitpicking of one particular thing and not letting it go, the almost intentional baiting/stupidity/lying...? If this is intentional then Cora is scum without a doubt. Like I said earlier somewhere though would a town Cora have gotten angrier? Shit things up even harder? Is he picking these fights on purpose and/or remaining...calmer and more measured than i would expect because of recent attempts to tone down his behaviour? I'm not super confident on either side of the lynch, which is sad, but the lynch gives us more to work on than anything else. Supposing he is town, giving Cora time is probably not going to benefit us at all. In fact, the sooner we kill him probably the better at least for town atmosphere regardless of what alignment he is. on the other hand, giving yamato a day will almost certainly help us read his alignment better, and yamato isn't actively destructive to town. He at worst is about as bad as a scummy lurker-being hard to lynch through subpar activity as opposed to being destructive. And this is all, granted, from what I understand and have witnessed of his play as scum. As town I know he has the potential to be contributory, so assuming he can get over his demoralization he can definitely be an asset. If at the end of night and 12-24 hours into tomorrow he still continues his current trend we can just kill him then. 36 hours is a long time for things to happen, so many things can change by then. | ||
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On January 09 2014 06:22 justanothertownie wrote: What the hell man... I should have been clearer. I'd ordinarily call you scummy, but I was merely tempted because I think you just legitimately don't know better. | ||
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On January 09 2014 06:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: Of course you should re-evaluate your reads but if people actually kept things simple as in how every townie should play: 1) establish your innocence 2) try to lynch mafia and only that town would win every game. When you have a town that works together the town wins. When people are clear in their thoughts and clarify their thought process. When you have people who only post half-assed comments, people who claim that they will not play, and people who are clearly not reading the thead and refuse to cooperate you already know you are going to lose the game if those people are alive at the end of the game. It doesn't even fucking matter if they are town, because they do not play towards town's win condition regardless of their alignment. That's why those people get lynched, that's why i get angry, and that's why people hate me, because when i get angry i become mean towards those people - i can't stand people who sign up to games and don't even try to play. If you can post 2 posts / day phase and have time for no more do not fucking use that time to argue about semantics or something irrelevant, read the thread and make one coherent case on your top scumread and try to push it. That's it, even if you are wrong or miss some other stuff or fail to consolidate it shows you have a clear opinion and you stand behind it. If you give 8 half-assed reads which are not even reads or are not explained or that make no sense given what's actually happened in the game you are not trying to get scum lynched, you are trying to do something you can't possibly achieve if you are town. Who cares who is your #4 scumread, who cares if you do not like player X. You are here to lynch mafia and not for telling who is a cool guy and who is not. And then people say, after doing that, "but i had no time to play". It makes me see red. Again, I agree with you, but realistically you can only kill lurkers if you can afford to spare lynches on them. When the number of people that you can reasonably read simply based on post activity numbers in the 40% range it's safe to say that you can't afford to lynch lurkers, because you basically can't differentiate them. It's much better in this case to kill Corazon even if some people have doubts on him. It's clear he's not going to contribute, as he's said nothing of original value despite showing in past games that he has the capability and despite being around practically all the time. Keeping him alive over Yamato is obviously suboptimal, because I think most people would probably agree that Yamato has a greater potential to be helpful to town anyway. Lastly more people are comfortable with his lynch than yamato, which isn't an amazing reason to lynch him, as people can be wrong, but at this point we have nothing better to go on. It's hard to give lurkers an ultimatum when you have 3-4 lynches before losing and the number of lurkers is actually greater than that | ||
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On January 09 2014 06:28 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright well this convinces me of Cora over yamato because you are certainly correct in giving yamato time is a wiser choice than giving Cora time, but what of kush? What does giving him time accomplish? (And again, to a lesser extent gumshoe at some point) kush is like this literally every game regardless of his alignment. No one has bothered to provide opinions on kush aside from flaming him, whereas almost everyone in the game has commented on Cora at some point. Regardless of how he flips this gives us something to work with. In addition, I would say that Corazon has been around more often and actually been more detrimental than kush has. As for gumshoe at this point I don't even know if the mods will let him live. You can't read a player when they haven't bothered to play the game at all. Lynching them is worse than a coin flip. On January 09 2014 06:31 justanothertownie wrote: What exactly don't I know better? You aren't making any sense. Okay, let me be blunt. Your play so far has led me to label you "dumb town". There are lots of things you've said that have led me to think you are town, but it's more because very few scum would be so careless as to say things so blatantly...well, scummy. If I had determined that you had that attitude based on an inference, e.g. reaction to a flip or something like that, rather than something you just came out and said, I'd be more likely to label you scum than bad. | ||
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On January 09 2014 06:44 WaveofShadow wrote: But see that's my point regarding kush. People haven't provided opinions on him BECAUSE he is like this every game----you can't provide a read on him or an opinion because there isn't anything you can use. Hence the decision to policy lynch him. While I agree that Cora has likely been more detrimental to the game at this current point in time, will that remain so for the rest of the game? For I think the third time I'll ask now---who would you rather have at LYLO? Kush or Cora? Neither of them, obviously. There is no right answer to that question because they're both equally worthless. Corazon is just actively destructive, so he's better to kill now. So I suppose that means if I had to make a choice it'd have to be kush. However if the game had gone differently and we had chosen to leave Corazon alone and pressured Kush instead it's very likely IMO that kush would have been the one to dump on the thread instead of Cora. Who knows, really. | ||
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I would have wholly expected gumshoe to straight up just get modkilled if he were town and just afk. In the worst case I think maybe he might come back and frantically try to figure out what happened while he was gone. The last thing I'd expect a townie to do is dump a massive post right before deadline that summarizes all his reads for no good reason and then royally waste his vote. BTW mods it would be nice it my vote was counted in the final votecount. Just for book keeping's sake on my part. Basically anyone who held their vote all day or was hesitant to vote/comment on Corazon or just provide reads or votes in general is really scummy. Artanis and gumshoe both did next to nothing aside from their initial post sprees and their convenient reentry to the thread immediately prior to lynch. Yamato is also a concern but I think that he should be able to clear himself if he actually is town. I think the same of Artanis as well, but I'll have to take a closer look later. I'll be back in an hour two to reread and hopefully we can get a good idea of who to kill tomorrow. It's imperative that we have activity tonight since myself or iamp are probably dead after tonight. | ||
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On January 09 2014 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: WBG, tell me how me coming back straight before deadline when Cora scumclaimed makes any sense as scum. He literally claimed scum by the time I voted him. How would I gain anything out of it as scum myself? It's pretty irrelevant, lots of scum vote switch when they know a partner is guaranteed to be dead just so their vote ends up in the "right" place in the end. I can't count the number of times I've had to tell shitty teammates to stop worrying about where their vote ends up because near lynch time they start squealing about how they're gonna look bad if their vote stays where it is. The simple fact is that I don't think there are more than maybe 3-4 scum players on this forum who really would understand that and not worry about it consistently. | ||
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On January 09 2014 09:28 yamato77 wrote: Also, unless you think our (theoretical) plan as scum was to hard bus each other and be the only real wagons D1, I consider myself confirmed town from this point forward. Not that I am going to stop solving the game, but that I expect people to stop accusing me and actually converse with me about my reads until such time as I am shot by mafia. stfu you're confirmed nothing at this point. If the vote was between two scum yesterday the incentive to bus would have been incredibly strong. So no, your alignment is completely divorced from corazon and the fact that you would dare try to use his flip in such a manner without actually having done anything is incredibly scummy. | ||
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Don't try to pretend that us pressuring you into providing a corazon vote was actually you pushing corazon independently. I'm sure had anyone been dumb enough to agree with you on iamperfection you would never have bothered switching to Cora. | ||
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I'd put him now at a decent chance to be scum but some things he has said are just almost too dumb to be scum. Others seem like white lies, while his tone seems so non confrontational and the content of his posts is just nebulous and surface-descriptive. At the beginning he, in his own words, begged to be seen on his own merits as a player, though throughout the day he basically did nothing worth keeping him alive for. All of his interactions with Cora are fucking weird too. On January 07 2014 12:00 gumshoe wrote: Probs roles scum every game sides, I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm scum and is just trying to lul me to sleep in order to coordinate a midnight lynch. ( I know this isn't majority lynch, but I'm sure rayn will find a way XD) That said, It is late here and I plan to finally catch spl tomorrow so gl all, I will leave my reads though case I die inexplicably. Leaning scummy on cheesecake, don't like the way he asked me about Artanis in voice, it was done in a really neutral way but left the door open for me to use it as an opportunity to attack Artanis. Basically I read it more as him trying to start a fight than him feeling out our alignments. He's very active but hasn't really contributed much, and is very eager to buddy up with talkative townies ( me and especially Artanis who cheesecake despreatly tried to repair relations with after he "misread" one of artanis's posts.) his filter includes lurker discussion in a game so far without actual lurkers, extreme buddying, and goofiness long after the time of goofballs has ended and very little honest scum hunting. Iamp leaning scummy cause of the aggressive way he called out Yamato, Rayn wos Yamato neutral cause not enough to go on. Cora scummy cause I don't like his face. Artanis townie cause he is actually trying to shape up town and he makes sense. Also he thinks I'm scum, which makes me more confident he's town. Question for readers: What incentive does a town player, no matter how shitty, have for making a read that is literally "I think this guy is scummy" Just completely out of the blue, no context, no previous mention, no specific (or even vague) reasoning. I see townies dump read posts pretty often but at the very least they have some semblance of reasoning. Not here, though. Whatever reasoning he does give is garbage anyway. But again, I can't tell whether this is just a bad townie or a bad scum. It's definitely bad something. It just makes no sense from a town perspective to me. On January 07 2014 12:22 gumshoe wrote: I don't really think your scum, I just don't like you ATM, and I don't think conversation between us would yield much seeing as we're both resolved to be hostile to one another ( or at least you are yah big jerk ) oh and if you did turn out to be scum I'd be pleasantly surprised ( : Even more perplexing. Note that Cora didn't respond to gumshoe calling him scum the same way he responded to others calling him scum. With others he was openly hostile. Here, it's basically just a smily of confusion. The post before his reentrance (the read dump and WoS vote) in which he basically says he doesn't want to comment on Corazon because he doesn't know how (based on his aggression and other things) was also a little strange to me. Now, for the last post, which I think is actually the most interesting of all: On January 09 2014 09:10 gumshoe wrote: XD, I dont know what it is, but every game I actually play as town, at one point or another I get irrationally mad at a player, who always turns out to be scum 0_0. Maybe I should listen to that feeling more. A great player once told me that one of the first things you should do following a flip is examine everyone's reactions. This right here is very interesting, because it suggests that gumshoe was mad at coral on. This is the first time I'm hearing of it-it wasn't apparent from the thread at all based on what gumshoe said about corazon or how he interacted with him that he was ever "irrationally mad" at him. So, unless this was completely private, this is probably strong evidence that gumshoe is just faking. Thoughts? | ||
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I need to read up on thrawn again. Each time I look at him I find it difficult to concentrate because the nature of his play makes him quite hard to read. I find myself needing to go back between his filter and the thread for a lot more posts than I would normally. I'll be back a while later, hopefully I get some time to reread everything at least once before night is over as well. | ||
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It was one of those "oh shit maybe we're making a mistake" moments for me, and I could totally understand any townie at that point using any information at his disposal to quell any internal doubts. | ||
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On January 09 2014 15:18 raynpelikoneet wrote: Initial impressins post flip are that thrawn and bugs are scum (if both scum have indeed posted). I need to do some research. On January 09 2014 15:23 raynpelikoneet wrote: I mean you could consider yamato scum on something like D6 is he is alive and has done nothing but right after lynch? Call the ONLY counter-wagon scum? Nah.. no way. IF ANYONE WANTS PROOF AS TO WHY THIS MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS: Go look at LIX (the one with FiveTouch as mayor) and Smurf Mini (in which GMarshal had us all playing under smurf names he created) In both games we had TWO scum on day 1. We killed one of them and then the other one lived for a really long time. In LIX it was okay because we just kept killing scum, in Smurf it was fucking awful because people attacked those who were on the counter wagon (like me) under the assumption that the counter wagon had to be town, even though the guy did nothing. You know what's funny? Last time the counter wagon was Yamato too. We just didn't know it cause it was a smurf game. He got replaced for inactivity and we never held him to any sort of standard because I ended up getting lynched for attacking him. Then we lost because no one knew where the scum were. | ||
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In fact I would say it is so stupid that it's even worse than someone coming up with an elaborate conspiracy that Yamato had to have bussed, because at the very least in the second case the player still leaves open the possibility of killing Yamato. In the first case it is nearly impossible to convince a player who has taken on the mentality that counter wagons have to be of opposite alignment to lynch someone like that later in the game when it is completely obvious that you have no choice left. | ||
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On January 09 2014 16:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: So bugs, which townie scum did try to lynch on D1? Who the fuck knows, I'm not scum. They clearly weren't coordinated enough to get any votes on townies. Cora voted Yamato and so did thrawn but that doesn't mean Yamato has to be town any more than it means thrawn has to be scum. The idea itself is pretty ridiculous on its own merits and it's tied to why people say don't connect flips. He voted Yamato initially but that itself doesn't mean much, particularly as scum distance each other and even more so when it was clear that he and Yamato were two of the strongest candidates. He voted me and also attacked WoS as well. These posts in particular are pretty interesting, though: On January 08 2014 13:25 Corazon wrote: Stop stop stop stop stop Rayn and Thrawn. Thrawn - lynching Rayn D1 is a bad idea. If Rayn is town, he is going to be a great asset to us going forward. He should be a policy lynch if he lasts longer than N2. Rayn - you need to stop OMGUSing and overreacting when people vote for you. This debate isn't going to help anyone. This is exactly what derailed the game in BttB. I'm begging for you to please drop this silly argument and resume it D2 or D3. We don't need this right now. Let's focus on actual scummy people like WBG, Yamato, and the inactives (in my opinion, CC, Yamato, Artanis (to an extent), Kush (to an extent, and mkfuba). On January 09 2014 04:28 Corazon wrote: Well Rayn, how can you tell my usefulness when you don't give me any breathing room. Are you really saying that I am going to be more useless than Kush, CC, fuba, gumshoe, Artanis, and Yamato? I'm here! I'm talking to you and I'm continuing to let you figure out my alignment. If we get down to MYLO, you are going to have a fairly decent opinion about my alignment. You cannot say the same about the people I listed above. I can help out town but it's hard to scumhunt when the mobs are coming after you the moment you try to get anything done. In the first post, gumshoe is missing. In the second, he's reappeared, note that by the second post corazon was under much more pressure. Anyway my point overall is basically that we cannot assume anything about anyone's alignment. No one is confirmed yet, and just because Cora attacked Yamato d1 it does not mean Yamato is guaranteed to be town. Sure, it makes him look townier, but that doesn't matter at all if he's going to continue to be worthless. So far Yamato has proven to be continuing his previous play despite trying to use the flip to better his own image, which is a very anti town thing to do. You don't establish yourself as a townie by calling yourself confirmed. You establish yourself as townie by finding scum. | ||
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If it didn't sound like you were all clueless I wouldn't have to keep yelling at you for forgetting the newbie guide. | ||
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On January 09 2014 16:37 yamato77 wrote: Do you think WoS voting reasoning is scummy or no? Basically, CTRL + F his filter, find his vote posts, and tell me what you think Not in the least, no, WoS's reasoning at least to me seems very organic. The tone and thought process he displays is completely open and actually quite thorough. If more townies played like him it'd be great, because even if their reads are wrong you can be sure they've given you a real opinion that they've independently thought about, regardless of what you end up doing with that opinion. While I didn't agree with some things he said, almost everything he's said so far makes complete sense from a town perspective. The only thing that can be labelled at all scummy is the hesitation to vote corazon, but even that has a far likelier town explanation-he was probably afraid his interaction with Cora (the one that's really hard to fake if they're both scum, btw) caused his opinion on him to be biased. | ||
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JAT Artanis Fuba Kush Gumshoe | ||
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I was preparing a post to say that tomorrow we should kill between Artanis, fuba and gumshoe tomorrow. I was going to wait till deadline and post that anyone who attacked gumshoe in the meanwhile is probably scum because he did several things throughout the night that were really townie. The number of players who decided to do fuck all was way too high. I will reiterate that I am not going to be playing for a while as long as players like kush get a free pass. That's only possible when there are other people in the game who are also lurking/doing nothing. iamp, rayn, thrawn, and WoS all looked to me townie enough to discuss things with (even if rayn would often say things that are really weird) Yamato, on the other hand, was the one super confusing factor. He did fuck all even though he was around the entire time. Obviously now it's probably true that he actually was demoralized but if this is a thing that has been happening in recent games to you then by all means take a break. | ||
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Had the scum target been a little calmer or had not said such weird things throughout the game, I don't think we would have stepped off Yamato. It felt to me as if I was dealing with a scum in Corazon after he kept blatantly lying, but I was hesitant to engage him because I don't know his play at all. I looked into his past games and it seemed to confirm the idea but the faked anger kept giving me doubts. So I just ignored him at that point (you can sort of tell where in my posts I stopped poking him/calling him scum) and I think WoS did the exact same thing shortly afterward, which reinforced my opinion. Had Yamato not made a couple of posts that made us question his lynch though I'm sure we would've killed him instead. | ||
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How many people after the lynch thought CC was scum? How many people did we have in the pool to lynch? If one of Artanis/CC died at some point do you think the players who would be left alive would have killed the other, after how they attacked each other? From a per-player standpoint it wasn't anything to cry home about. Aside from about 5 players everyone else didn't really do anything. JAT spent the entire game sort of weakly sheeping people, it wasn't really clear to me that he was town. Artanis and CC were mostly afk and while that makes Artanis more likely to be scum, his level of activity dropped to a point where anybody could argue that he was just neglectfully inactive. Kush did nothing as usual except aggravate half the town by existing. Aside from the players I mentioned before I can't remember anything that the rest did. To read them properly I'd have to go back to my notes to remember what was the thing in their filter that swung the strongest. Did you have strong town reads on all of them? | ||
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On January 10 2014 00:56 marvellosity wrote: I think bugs has rose-tinted spectacles of how games he used to play in were like... Not really. Activity used to be overall lower, but the number of useless players per game would be maybe 1-2. I decided to stop playing earlier this year because I was truly tired of 1.) playing with people like Kush. Even sinani and co did more than this guy 2.) trying to play a proper mini where people actually pull their own weight, regardless of alignment. And I will also say that activity seems higher because we have so few players now that consolidate posts. Almost everyone now is conversational, which actually could very well be a reason for the stark difference in activity between the most active and least active players. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:00 justanothertownie wrote: I tend to look townier the longer the games goes on. I admit that my Day1 play generally sucks and I am often attacked early on but in the later stages of the game I am almost always a universal townread. I think this might be similar for some other players. Predicting that nobody would lynch the second half of CC/Artanis in the end makes no sense. In my experience things like that have less influence on peoples reads the longer the game goes on. Okay, well let me put it this way. I have won games from Artanis's position. My second scum game, 9 player mini. My partner got lynched day 1 and we still ended up winning. My point with regards to CC/artanis is that assuming neither was modkilled, as even the host said, I seriously doubt CC would have gotten serious lynch attention, ever. Towards lylo there are fewer players to kill but by that point the players who are left do not all that often make the best plays. And again, precedent exists for this. Similar thing to this game happened in June with GM's smurf mini. Scum got replaced instead of mod killed and the town didn't lynch the replacements...because they were replacements. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:03 marvellosity wrote: Who would you say was 'useless' or 'didn't try' this game? You can say kush, ok. Useless != bad Like you ranted quite unfairly at jat for extended periods of time, but jat put in decent effort. He was trying. What were his reads? He was differentiable from Corazon for small, varying reasons. But you really can't say that some of these players would have been spared lynch if the scum team wasn't so weak. Come on, this happens so often I can't believe you're tryin to argue this. I feel like the results of the game are tinting your opinion. The results don't fucking matter. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:09 justanothertownie wrote: I don't say that it is impossible. But I also don't think it is very likely. I am pretty confident we could have figured this out with this town. Whatever, this is all speculative. Again, the precedent already exists for what I am saying. Scum being weak was a very very strong factor in our favor. E: I' m also not purposely trying to be a downer. I'm just concerned that the take back from this game is going to be that "town played fine" and people aren't going to change their attitudes about how they approach the game. Scum play has notoriously been awful, so when a team of relatively decent scum comes along they end up wrecking face. It's actually scary that people have such poor memories when it comes to how games can be lost so quickly even when the results are good if the process is shitty. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:12 marvellosity wrote: Oh, don't you dare, bugs, my thinking isn't that shallow ^^ I've been around in plenty of games you've played in, and I've read a bunch of others from before i came to the forum. jat's level of effort/contribution is in no way below the "average" standard 2,3,4 years ago or whatever. Townies have and will always struggle with day 1, some townies will play better than others, not everyone is going to be bleeding town from their pores in every single game at every single moment, and not every townie is going to be catching mafia left right and centre Town didn't magically have 70%+ winning rates in years gone by... I'm picking at this because the complaints you're making are possibly generally valid in the current TL meta, but I think they're pretty unfair when applied to the players in this game in particular. Almost everyone was trying to at least a somewhat decent extent. wtf? You weren't there for those games, you don't even understand. You also dodged my question, what were his reads?? Most of the reads in this game were supplied by around 3-5 people. And you also know just as well as I do that results don't matter and they are a poor predictor of the success of a play style. This town didn't do anything above average. Do you think the scum were average? Below average, certainly. So think, what happens when the scum are not?? | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:17 marvellosity wrote: it's nothing to do with you, jat darling <3 It isn't, I'm just making an example. Because I believe marv is wrong. I think Ace/BC would probably back me up on this because they tend to have similar opinions about what would happen if scum pull their own weight. It's about both things in combination, really. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:20 marvellosity wrote: ok, you're not going to get this. I'm not claiming this town were amazing, or that mafia weren't weak (they were) - rather that the large majority of townies were putting in reasonable effort, whether they were playing well or not Suffice to say I think your classification of the level of play and what is generally expected of townies is quite a long way off base. So do you think that town would have won if scum this game played better? I honestly don't. E: like, the standard seems to have been lowered from "establish towniness by making reads" to just "establish towniness" which is just fucked up. It means any scum who is able to do that even without having strong fake reads will just stomp all over the place. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:25 marvellosity wrote: that's not the point? The point is you're coming in here saying you don't want to play anymore because townies aren't trying or pulling their weight or whatever That's a different complaint from "townies are bad". The result of the game is irrelevant (as you kindly pointed out) You can look at townies in this game and say maybe they didn't play excellently, but nothing that says you don't want to play games like this? Sure, maybe I need to explain myself a bit better. It's a matter of coin flip whether the scum team ends up having good players or crappy ones. I think the forum has consistently shown that most players have very little interest in playing scum, and because the majority of the playerbase doesn't really see good play all that often they can't emulate it either. (And that goes for both alignments) Supposing the next time if town is similar to this and the coin ends up flipping an average scum team the game will be awful. I've been there, and the most often it's happened is in the last year (most of my recent mini games, I have not enjoyed). I stopped playing large games because I didn't like how many people would afk in large games or just not really provide reads. That mentality has pushed into all games by now I feel. On January 10 2014 01:27 marvellosity wrote: Like christ, Palmar almost got me lynched a year ago in LVIII because I was playing terribly and I had no real reads, and I argued my way out of it and BC got lynched instead for doing nothing. And BC and I are hardly weak players... That's just what happens from game to game, some people will play strongly, some will play weakly But as long as people are trying, then that's what really matters Oh trust me, I remember being pretty pissed off about this :p LIX was really the only large game in a long time that I can remember that was enjoyable for me. The minis have been declining in quality too, I think it was a game Artanis hosted (magic, no themed?) that I also liked. I don't really recall any others except further back. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:32 marvellosity wrote: Ok. I understand your angle, but I think you're being a little over-pessimistic, especially within the context of this game. I'm 99% sure this is because the game was won by town. I can guarantee that if town lost I'd be saying similar things and people would be agreeing with me. Cause, that's exactly what always happens. On January 10 2014 01:34 iamperfection wrote: It seems like your just applying it to the wrong game here bugs. Like kush is really the only person you can be very disappointed in his play. And you cant really say the game would have been awful with different scum players who knows how the game plays out at that point. Read above. I'm pretty sure the only reason you're saying this at all is because the game was won by town. It hasn't seemed to me like play has changed, which means, again, when scum are half decent the game will be very frustrating to play. That's basically just dependent on a couple players rolling scum who don't feel like afking their way to victory. | ||
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I'm dumb, you're right, town played fine. There are no problems here. | ||
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No matter how they respond you end up with something useful. The worst case is they give you something that doesn't really answer your question (or nothing at all) and even that is useful since you can use that to change/further reinforce your read of them, instead. | ||
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I appreciate the nice words on my play but I really don't think it was all that special. I would say that some nice games to read at least IMO and sort of ordered by usefulness are: Some Mafia Game. One of my first games on the forum, I wasn't satisfied with my play, especially as I was pretty new but I think other players in the game displayed some pretty decent play, particularly the scum and what they were able to get away with. My first exposure to kush-like players started here (although I think saying that might truly be an insult to sinani). The really nice thing about this game is that Ace provided some really good analysis and notes in the postgame. Town didn't have a great overall showing but individual play was pretty decent. PYP: Interesting This is a PM game but I think one of the single strongest showings by town, if not the strongest, I've seen on the forum. Much of the PM action is sadly hidden away and I can try to provide some more details if necessary as to what happened but the postgame analysis mostly does it justice as far as I could remember. Storm Mafia I was pretty fucking pissed off at RoL in the postgame for this one but I still think it was a pretty good showing from all sides. BC, RoL, myself, and layabout were on the scumteam, while town had syllo and kita, both of whom are pretty fucking scary townies, especially as kita was a goddamn hider IIRC. I believe VE was the SK who ended up winning? I think. I think I mostly succeeded in my goal in completely distracting town as much as I could. I play an active scum because to deviate from my town play would result in certain death (also cause I have to shit up the thread anyway :p ). I think this game is a good learning experience from several different perspectives. From scum perspective you can read the game through BC's or my shoes, from town's both syllo and kita played really well, and VE gave an incredible 3p performance. Mini X. I've cited this game before as one of my favorites that I've participated in. It has a very low overall post count compared to games we get today, but the content and quality of the posts from almost everyone in the game are quite good. I think this was jaybrundage's first or one of his very first games on the forum-everyone else in the game was reasonably experienced by that point I think, with at least half a dozen games or so. Mafia XLIV There is nothing at all amazing about this game-in fact, as a 30 player game most of it is awful, but I remember it well because it was my first game. It is, in fact, a textbook example of why lurkers and useless townies lose games and make for a very unpleasant playing experience-there were like 5 or 6 inactivity modkills and even among the players who were left, most of them did nothing. I tried games of this size for a long time afterward but I don't think I really ever enjoyed them unless they were themed with a fair number of good players in the ranks. The only reason I am linking it here is because of how Foolishness played in this game (and basically every game I've seen him roll town). In a sea full of average and against cresting waves of jubjub Foolishness always manages to have stellar reads and an uncanny ability to go from completely nondescript to town leader within hours. Maybe it's the way he presents his cases, his reputation of being really accurate, the fear he instills among scum, his sexiness, or just everything in combination, but I think anyone who wants to get better at the game should learn from how he plays. Couple's therapy. This game was also controversial for the endgame but overall a pretty interesting learning experience I think. It's basically a 9 role mini with 18 players hydraed in pairs-since there was almost always at least one of the members of each pair in the thread at any given time, even if some of the players were inactive there was bound to be some representation from everyone at every point in the game, so participation on the whole was quite high. Liar Game Setup was weird and aside from one or two people for the most part the caliber of the game was really high because it was an invite game. Kinda confusing especially without the PMs in hindsight though. I'd say the same for Bureaucracy Mafia, although I lived only to die n1 in that game, so my memory is pretty weak there. e: I will also say that I was pretty pleased with some of the games I hosted, though a couple were relatively lopsided. I cohosted one with Incog, I forget which. XVIII? XVII? something like that. Radfield was in that game if I remember correctly and he, like Foolishness, always is spot on as town. Arkham Asylum hosted by BC is a decent example of how a strong scumteam can tear apart town. Some of our plays were kinda dumb and excessive or unnecessary, but we more than made up for it by acting cohesively, planning out our moves well in advance, providing the newer players on the team with leadership to prevent them from doing dumb things, and keeping constant pressure on town with high levels of activity. Read day 1 of Kaller game and my filter for the lulz: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313991&user=wherebugsgo&view=all (also GoT mafia in which I was an unkillable 3p. I just trolled all the time) And then LoTR Mafia, another one of those games with a pretty controversial endgame. | ||
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