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I want HolyFlare and hapahauli to chat with each other some more. Holy's filter has a hapa phase and then a Gonzaw/foolishness-y phase, but hapa hasn't been back to discuss Holy's big hapa post or anything else. I think we should put them both in a closet and listen closely at the door to see what they say.
On January 21 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 10:46 kitaman27 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum. I was kinda hoping to role mafia with the all vanilla setup. They probably have the advantage regardless of who is playing. Wanna vote sandroba with me? He may or may not be scummy. lol I'm really hoping you're not scum kita. Nah no reason to vote sandroba yet. Not only is there basically nothing to vote him for, I've seen what he's capable of as the game progresses (from PYP) and if he is town and plays this game anything like that, he'll accuse townaustin of being mafia and then work to get him lynched and then start bringing the pain to scum. Wave's filter, apart from needing that correction made to his posts, is mostly mush. I do like his post calling giving specific reads on VE, hapa, though. He spoke with them a bit earlier in the day, and the talking --> reads for reasons looks townie to me at this point in the game.
Marv opened with ahoyhoy which means he's ancient. As far as the rest of his filterOn January 21 2014 19:40 marvellosity wrote:
austin dear, how are you planning on approaching day 1 this game? (last post I promise) Initial plan was to play similarly to the last numbered game I was in. I actually felt really good about my D1 just poking at people, trying to get reads, trying to get activity, and I think I do a decent job as activity/friendliness cop. However, that style doesn't translate to a game without a mayor, a smaller game, and a game where people are most likely all going to be active. So my plan to how I would approach D1 is unlikely to be how I actually approach it.
marv, gimme some particular questions of kita's that you find wonky. I think I really like his filter, and perhaps there's fruitful discussion there
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On January 22 2014 03:46 marvellosity wrote:
austin the issue wasn't whether Prome justified the difference, but whether what he did makes him scummy or not. You're 1-0ing something that wasn't even really a point of contention Do you find Prome's justification for differentiating between VE and WoS's posts credible?
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Perhaps that wording is wrong, but you get the gist.
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We can skip the yes/no portion I guess...
If you like Prome's explanation, I'm interested in hearing about that. If you don't, then you think Prome (1) is silly or (2) gave a false reason and/or (3) doesn't have a reason?
If you don't like Prome's explanation and it's (2) or (3), then whether there was a point of contention or not is irrelevant, except that it SHOULD be a point of contention. In my book, making up or having a very weak justification for treating in a different manner two people who do the same thing is a scummy thing (which is the mindset I find myself in at the moment, that yes, what he did was scummy because I don't buy that justification)
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I actually don't have a problem with prom/wos interaction in particular, that first post and fishing for hapa's comment on it is what fells weird and scripted to me. I'd like to hear from hapa if he thinks it felt fake too.
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On January 22 2014 04:44 sandroba wrote:
I actually don't have a problem with prom/wos interaction in particular, that first post and fishing for hapa's comment on it is what fells weird and scripted to me. I'd like to hear from hapa if he thinks it felt fake too. So you think WoS shows some sort of curiousity or curious question, especially concerning you, around that time?
Beyond dat, any gold mined from entrance posts?
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Vote Count - Deadline at Wednesday, Jan 22 10:59pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
VisceraEyes (2): Hapahauli, kitaman27
Promethelax (1): VisceraEyes
WaveOfShadow (1): Foolishness
Foolishness (1): marvellosity
Sandroba (0): kitaman27
Hapahauli (0): VisceraEyes
Not voted (6): Promethelax, Austinmcc, Sandroba, HolyFlare, Gonzaw, WaveofShadow
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On January 22 2014 04:47 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 04:44 sandroba wrote:
I actually don't have a problem with prom/wos interaction in particular, that first post and fishing for hapa's comment on it is what fells weird and scripted to me. I'd like to hear from hapa if he thinks it felt fake too. So you think WoS shows some sort of curiousity or curious question, especially concerning you, around that time? Beyond dat, any gold mined from entrance posts?
He doesn't care about me at that time, as there is no reason to. The points he raises about prom's post later pretty much are the same thoughts I had when I read it, so I don't think he merits my attention so far.
Nothing besides prom and maaaybe gonzaw.
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On January 22 2014 04:55 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 04:47 austinmcc wrote:On January 22 2014 04:44 sandroba wrote:
I actually don't have a problem with prom/wos interaction in particular, that first post and fishing for hapa's comment on it is what fells weird and scripted to me. I'd like to hear from hapa if he thinks it felt fake too. So you think WoS shows some sort of curiousity or curious question, especially concerning you, around that time? Beyond dat, any gold mined from entrance posts? He doesn't care about me at that time, as there is no reason to. The points he raises about prom's post later pretty much are the same thoughts I had when I read it, so I don't think he merits my attention so far. Nothing besides prom and maaaybe gonzaw. Okeedoke. Maybe we're working in two directions here. I'm mostly poking at the VE/Prome interaction, not a WoS/Prome interaction.
VE asks Prome why Prome kinda on VE's case about saying you're not gonna respond to pressure, bla bla, whatever, but is NOT on WoS's case when WoS says you're not gonna respond to pressure, bla bla, whatever.
Prome saysOn January 21 2014 11:52 Promethelax wrote:
WoS had a question that feels curious, in my experience curious people are more often town than scum. VE felt fluffy. WoS felt curious.
Reasonable? No.
True? Yes.
Often accurate? Yes. If you don't think WoS cares about you, and I pretty much agree that he's not racking his brain for magical Sandroba thoughts, then you think Promethelax is manufacturing his distinction, given that WoS isn't actually curious about you or anything? Or you simply don't care about this Prome/VE interaction at all, or don't care about Prome's reasons, or any other "I am Sandroba and I don't really put much stock into this VE/Prome stuff"
I'm not looking at WoS with this, or WoS/Prome, so much as I'm trying to zero in on the singular post by Prome where he says WoS asks this curious question which I cannot find.
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Anyway, thanks for the response
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My entrance post was obviously the best, there's nothing sandro can state otherwise.
On January 22 2014 03:10 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 02:45 gonzaw wrote:
kita, either you didn't fully understand the purpose of my post....or you are posting some weird stuff (I fail to see how my post can be scum oriented in any way, or how I made the post "without relating it to the current game", when I mention exactly how it relates to it even by quoting 70% of Foo's posts this game) I guess it has to do with the fact that the meta analysis was applied to a player with three posts, which I wouldn't be very confident in based on the sample size. If you come to the conclusion that a town Foolishness will eventually attempt to have a helpful attitude and start to scumhunt, yet you think a vote on him until the point where he does so is lame, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. If you prefer a wait and see attitude, then why not save your meta post until he has something to go by and then come to a conclusion then?
Spoiler for stuff that may not matter much:
+ Show Spoiler +
Because waiting until "he has something to go by" might be wasting time (I won't hold off a vote or read to wait for a guy to do some specific thing that may never happen, specially when I'm starting to feel strongly he can be scum).
Yeah that tends to happen with Foo, at least with me. I rarely need him to like start posting a bunch before starting to believe he's scum. At times one post may be enough. Well, usually. I think I just have this urge to lynch a scum Foo on D1 since like ever lol.
And again, I prefer to establish myself as super town before finding scum. If a post of mine makes no sense in the "hunt scum" department, it does in the "make everybody believe there is no way you can be scum" department.
I didn't vote Foo...yet, because I was waiting to read the thread. I'll most likely vote him yes, but I'm not in a hurry.
So I'm catching up.
First things first: Why the hell does WOS post "Welp" so many times? :/
Are you trying to act like a noob on purpose or something? Dunno if it's scummy or too scummy to be scum, just straight up interesting (not in a good way)
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Like, I'm reading WOS posts and they seem kind of fine; except some pointless questions (like his "Do you and Hapa have a history?" question here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=13#247 )
But then him being too passive and "nooby" strikes me as off.
I'm pretty grey on others, but I haven't finished reading yet (on page 16). Kita seems to be looking better though. I like the fact that his thought process is consistent when going against sandro and myself. I mean that "Don't tell scum about what you are looking for because they will avoid it" when he voted sandro and did that stuff to me.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 22 2014 04:25 austinmcc wrote:
We can skip the yes/no portion I guess...
If you like Prome's explanation, I'm interested in hearing about that. If you don't, then you think Prome (1) is silly or (2) gave a false reason and/or (3) doesn't have a reason?
If you don't like Prome's explanation and it's (2) or (3), then whether there was a point of contention or not is irrelevant, except that it SHOULD be a point of contention. In my book, making up or having a very weak justification for treating in a different manner two people who do the same thing is a scummy thing (which is the mindset I find myself in at the moment, that yes, what he did was scummy because I don't buy that justification)
Just popping in between exercise and dinner, i'll go find kita's stuff a bit later.
Mostly 1, maybe a touch of 3? It's just something I don't find very surprising. I've often remarked to Prome that I find his opening to games bad/weak/scummy because he makes senseless accusations/stupid fluff/whatever.
Really (and this is to VE mostly I guess) I don't really care so much about him doing that at the start of the game, nor Hapa either, because it's what they do. The difference between here and LX is that on LX it was abundantly clear he was on the backfoot about his RNG plan, here his defence was on the frontfoot (partly *because* he didn't try to overjustify it again and again) and he simply moved on from it.
I sincerely wish I found it as interesting as you and VE seem to :p
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 22 2014 05:27 gonzaw wrote:Like, I'm reading WOS posts and they seem kind of fine; except some pointless questions (like his "Do you and Hapa have a history?" question here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=13#247 ) But then him being too passive and "nooby" strikes me as off. I'm pretty grey on others, but I haven't finished reading yet (on page 16). Kita seems to be looking better though. I like the fact that his thought process is consistent when going against sandro and myself. I mean that "Don't tell scum about what you are looking for because they will avoid it" when he voted sandro and did that stuff to me.
Sorry, why can't mafia do this?
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On January 22 2014 05:32 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 05:27 gonzaw wrote:Like, I'm reading WOS posts and they seem kind of fine; except some pointless questions (like his "Do you and Hapa have a history?" question here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=13#247 ) But then him being too passive and "nooby" strikes me as off. I'm pretty grey on others, but I haven't finished reading yet (on page 16). Kita seems to be looking better though. I like the fact that his thought process is consistent when going against sandro and myself. I mean that "Don't tell scum about what you are looking for because they will avoid it" when he voted sandro and did that stuff to me. Sorry, why can't mafia do this?
Seems like a pointless bit of "character" to keep up with and fabricate, when nobody would seemingly pay notice to it (other than my super detective skills!). If he was scum, I would have thought he wouldn't bother with it. At worst it could be a coincidence, but it gives some slight points in his favour, since it shows that some "hidden" parts of his shown persona are made consistent. As town this comes naturally (you hide nothing), but as scum you either have to fabricate it, or something be so good it comes naturally too (or be a coincidence).
Not something big, but something (IMO) worth noticing (and worth keeping noticing in the future)
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
you're very strange gonzaw
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Would you say that if he ends up being town and I just made him "confirmed town"?
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Like, you also have to see the intention. When he does that to me and sandro, it's not "find it scummy", and it's not "it's not worthwhile". It's a specific reaction he has to it, of intrigue and maybe bewilderment (at someone seemingly "wasting" time and a strategy like that). From what I gathered, he had that similar reaction both times.
...or maybe I just know nothing. Who knows?
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On January 22 2014 04:44 sandroba wrote:
I actually don't have a problem with prom/wos interaction in particular, that first post and fishing for hapa's comment on it is what fells weird and scripted to me. I'd like to hear from hapa if he thinks it felt fake too.
I think his first post was scripted, but it's not really alignment indicative. I'm leaning town on Prome from his general attitude on early Day 1, since he was the first person to make a serious accusation and move the discussion forward. Also, his posting has a "bravado" about it that I don't think would come from scum.
So I think his current line of posting is townie, though that could change should his interest level wane for the next few days.
@ Holy
On January 21 2014 22:05 Holyflare wrote:
...
You used a post from a player that has had 0 contribution to the game as a platform for you to further your paradigm of VE. Not only is that strange but you do not question HOW he could have those reads (something you absolutely should because how else do you learn about another player's mindset?) The only thing you question is his read on wave. You should absolutely not be happy when someone calls you or someone else town for no reasoning and should be questioning it as you have been questioning mostly everything for the entirety of the game.
I think you assume that I think and plan my early-game posts more than I do. As a reference, I basically spazz post anything and everything on early day 1 to start discussion, because I feel that starting things up is 1000x more important than avoiding suspicion on me from the inevitable person that's never played with me before and misunderstands my motives (you).
Now I quoted Foolishness, not out of some thoughtful consideration, but because his post echoed a sentiment that I was feeling at the time. It is not some magical platform - it was coincidence, and therefore I quoted it.
As for why I didn't pursue Foolishness's town reads on myself and VE - it was because his logic was self-evident:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 21 2014 15:59 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 15:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
So Foolish, do you think I'm making mountains of molehills? I've garnered two votes already, and since you didn't vote for me I'm left thinking that you must just disagree with my points? You and Hapa are two townies that are arguing with each other over nothing.
It's short rationale, but it's pretty clear and straightforward. If you play enough games, these early-game town-on-town arguments happen all the time, and make for a pretty good justification to call two people town. Perhaps I should have been more critical, but its easy to gloss over things when you agree with them.
As for not being more critical of the read on myself... well I'm fucking obviously town. That much should be clear from my early-game interest level, and the multitude of players calling me town so early (citing my lack of interest level when I'm mafia in general).
I don't understand the mindset behind this. You suggest we find his alignment by way of pressure but then give into the sentiment of other players of which you do not know the alignment of and say that we should not pressure him because he won't respond instead of taking the initiative of your confirmed alignment to yourself and pressuring sandroba yourself. This isn't something a townie mindset does at all. I'm interested to hear your reasoning before I put my vote down on you though because there's no reason being hasty.
The mindset is that I'm playing devil's advocate with two players. I really don't care about my own consistency - I just care about making them respond.
Why do you assume that it is retroactive justification instead of new evidence coming to light after a troll vote? What he was saying made sense and prome's opening post seemed like it was pre-written before he even read any of the game. I'll get into this later when I have the time and get back but for now I'll leave you to talk about what i've said above.
You know I'm not voting VE anymore right? You know I have a town-read on VE now, right?
Once again, in my early-game play, I'm going to latch onto anything I can and make a case out of it. It's not important for me to be right this early, it's important for people to post. I think you're taking the logic of an early-game case far too seriously.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
On January 22 2014 00:56 kitaman27 wrote:
Seven pages over the first 17 hours is pretty weak. -_-
Since I don't believe we've crossed paths before HolyFlare, lets chat. I'll let you choose the topic.
Oh oh!! What is your opinion on democracy in general? Are you more in favour of say, a technocracy, or do you like current systems of leadership? Should we go back to dictatorships? Long live the king?
Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it.
Why is he spending so much time on foolishness?
On January 22 2014 05:23 gonzaw wrote:My entrance post was obviously the best, there's nothing sandro can state otherwise. Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 03:10 kitaman27 wrote:On January 22 2014 02:45 gonzaw wrote:
kita, either you didn't fully understand the purpose of my post....or you are posting some weird stuff (I fail to see how my post can be scum oriented in any way, or how I made the post "without relating it to the current game", when I mention exactly how it relates to it even by quoting 70% of Foo's posts this game) I guess it has to do with the fact that the meta analysis was applied to a player with three posts, which I wouldn't be very confident in based on the sample size. If you come to the conclusion that a town Foolishness will eventually attempt to have a helpful attitude and start to scumhunt, yet you think a vote on him until the point where he does so is lame, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. If you prefer a wait and see attitude, then why not save your meta post until he has something to go by and then come to a conclusion then? Spoiler for stuff that may not matter much: + Show Spoiler +
Because waiting until "he has something to go by" might be wasting time (I won't hold off a vote or read to wait for a guy to do some specific thing that may never happen, specially when I'm starting to feel strongly he can be scum).
Yeah that tends to happen with Foo, at least with me. I rarely need him to like start posting a bunch before starting to believe he's scum. At times one post may be enough. Well, usually. I think I just have this urge to lynch a scum Foo on D1 since like ever lol.
And again, I prefer to establish myself as super town before finding scum. If a post of mine makes no sense in the "hunt scum" department, it does in the "make everybody believe there is no way you can be scum" department.
I didn't vote Foo...yet, because I was waiting to read the thread. I'll most likely vote him yes, but I'm not in a hurry.
So I'm catching up. First things first: Why the hell does WOS post "Welp" so many times? :/ Are you trying to act like a noob on purpose or something? Dunno if it's scummy or too scummy to be scum, just straight up interesting (not in a good way)
I don't understand, this is most probably the reason that foolishness voted for WoS, based on the welp and shit in his first post but you are construing foolishness as scummy but WoS' actions are now scummy too. So is foolishness now not trolling and is actually right and you wasted time or is he still trolling and you think both are scummy?
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EPT
