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On December 10 2013 17:28 xigxag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 17:23 Plutarch wrote:On December 10 2013 17:12 xigxag wrote:On December 10 2013 17:06 Plutarch wrote:
Why do you have a town read on me Xigxag? It is natural as town to feel like the person attacking you is scum. After all, you know you are town and this person is wrong and attacking you. And yet you have given me a town read without justification. What reasoning can you provide for yet another town read? Your play, you are niggling over and over on a thing that doesn't feel right to you. You are self confident in a non-scum way "lol look at him squirm" since inciting a big fight with a townie is counter productive to scum agenda and I am a big fan of your answer when I asked you why you didn't build up a case you didn't flounder you simply stated that you didn't know what was right, only what was wrong. It suggested someone who was objectively reading cases and, if they had an issue with that case, making the issue known. All in all it seems likely that you are town. If you are scum you are one of the top scum players I've ever seen. So I'm going to assume that ockham had it right and you are town. I don't understand. How can you justify this read so well and then do the complete opposite for the kush read. For the record. This is a good read. That kush read was awful. But this post seems awfully townie so I think I will unvote for now. ##unvoteIf you could let me know if you are a smurf or not that would be helpful. Whether or not you agree with me the kush read is as well thought out and supported by the facts *Rayn the Pelican: what is it about Purple's particular lack of contribution that makes him a better lynch than say the pasta duo of beefaroni and spaghetti *unless Kush flips mafia in which case I was totes trolling with that read because I am always right. Even when I'm not.
This is wrong. Absolutely and complete. Now you seem scummy again.
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For the record. I don't think Xigxag is a smurf.
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Please fix your post rayn.
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On December 10 2013 17:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 17:40 Plutarch wrote:
For the record. I don't think Xigxag is a smurf. Actually yeah, you are right. Why did you call him out for his kush read? Didn't it seem to you he actually did believe in his logic behind the read? What does he gain from giving kush a town read as if we assume kush is either alignment?
Because it was awful. There was no logic behind the read to believe in at all and his justification was some ambiguous reference to the 'facts of the game'.
There is a reason to give town reads to townies as scum and that is because it gives you something to talk about that you know to be true. That is much easier than trying to fake a read on someone that you know to be false.
Often newer scum players will give town reads to people easily with little reason in order to contribute or appear to be contributing. Whereas townies whom are naturally suspicious will not give town reads unless they have very good reasons.
That is why it is important to both pressure people's town reads for justification and then assess whether the read is justifiable or not. If it is not justifiable and the player cannot justify it well at all then it is likely that player is far more likely to be scum. If they can give very good reasons for their town read that person is less likely to be scum.
Xigxag's atrocious town read on Kush seems scummy to me. And the wishy-washiness of his posts around Xatalos and Cora and his attack on Vayne are scummy too. His only redeeming post in the entire game is his justification of his read on me and I'm not sure if that is enough.
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On December 10 2013 18:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Plutarch you should be good enough to know people use bad logic all the time in mafia games. That does not mean it's not logic. I find xigxag's logic behind his kush read bad but it also reads to me that he actually believes in that logic based on his arguments around the issue.
Again do you think he is using shitty logic on purpose and when half of the thread calls him out for it he stubbornly stands by his words instead of concluding he might be wrong and that might not in fact make kush town?
Didn't I just say that? He used bad logic to form a town read to talk about. He can't back down from it after that then he had something to talk about and it seems he is contributing.
I am aware that townies can use bad logic. That is not the issue though. The issue is that he formed a town read when no reasonable townie would. Of course his logical justification would be bad. He knew Kush was town and called him town without reason, when he had no reason.
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On December 10 2013 18:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Especially if he is new why would he take the "hard way" when there is the easy way to just say "i might be wrong and you might be right"?
Well that is part of it clearly. Which is why I was asking if he was smurfing or not. Notice I have unvoted. I think he very well could be scum, but he could also just be new.
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What part of his kush read did he gather from anything?
I looked through his profile though and he is not a smurf. He joined in Aprill, posted in commandments thread and /in and /out of PYP and replaced in Nuclear winter before getting nuked before posting.
He might be from OMGUS.net or maybe he is a lurker.
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On December 10 2013 18:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Is there any reason either of you guys are not commenting on my case on purple as we seem to not reach into any conclusion about xigxag's alignment atm?
He is scummy. He hasn't answered my questions to him.
I want him to respond before I do though.
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On December 10 2013 18:25 kushm4sta wrote:
real quick who should i place holder vote?
dont have time to do much d1.
Alakaslam
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This is how beautiful circles are born.
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On December 10 2013 13:00 Plutarch wrote:I feel as though artanis has applied a double standard towards what constitutes being in the spotlight and how this causes someone to be town or scum. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. I don't understand how you can apply this reasoning toward corazon not being scum, and yet believe that Xatalos is scum despite also putting himself into the spotlight through the application of pressure and votes. You mentioned a distinction that Xatalos was not actually putting himself into the spotlight despite clearly doing so. Would you be able to clearly explain this distinction?
Relevant.
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On December 10 2013 18:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Yeah but i don't think either of Xata/Cora is scummy atm.
Cora is scummy. If you notice my interactions with him he downright refuses to answer a simple question and instead tries to derail things by arguing over my wording.
Then when I clarify beyond all idiocy he leaves.
Also his Xatalos case was awful. But that is not alignment indicative.
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On December 10 2013 18:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:Plutarch i don't like this: Show nested quote +I see some dissonance between your first point and your second. Why would you be so inclined towards policy on low activity players when you have just acknowledged that people can be town and not be active?
Perhaps as you say you only require town to be active and you are, in fact, scum? That is, as Cora says, clearly twisting his words.
I disagree. It didn't make sense that someone could state they aren't going to be super active (as town presumably) and then lynch based on an activity metric.
Regardless that was my first post which are always slight stretches. I find the part where Cora refuses outright to answer my question and instead forcefully derails the discussion to be much more interesting.
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It starts from that post and continues on until his extended absence.
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On December 10 2013 19:33 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. It's simple. Cora's post could not achieve any scum agenda. I don't see scum reasoning behind his posts more so than a town player would, whereas Xalatos' posts can definitely serve a scum agenda, and I feel they have though I liked his followups since then. I like LSB's points on Sidesprang and Rayn's points on purple. Rayn's more so than LSB but I'd need to do a rereading and I'm lazy.
Don't just say that Xatalos' post could serve a mafia agenda and Cora's couldn't. Provide some evidence or reasoning.
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On December 10 2013 19:45 Alakaslam wrote:
I feel kind of indignant. I thought my posts had almost too obvious meaning.
I mean really...
Anyway, how I gather a read. The way I gather reads needed(eeds) to change. Past methods weren't working, I am too stoic and bland and always wrong. I gotta shake things up or start co-hosting, and if I can't understand playing the game I won't be any good at balance.
Xigxag, I wish I was quoting literature so that I could respond appropriately but I am wholly oblivious. If my light in a glass looks like Edison's work, let me assure you I am French. I am winging practically everything I say to maintain relevancy to this game.
I don't care. Please do something useful and post simply and in a straightforward manner.
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On December 10 2013 19:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:41 Holyflare wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you in regards to pushing "scum agendas". It's quite simple for a person to not do anything other than their normal town play as scum on day 1. Why would scum be pushing "agendas" so brazenly? The only reason they would need to conform to some agenda would be to get votes off of a person if it was their scum buddy - in this case - it would be off of cora who he is attacking. If he's not pushing any agenda then there is nothing in his posts that prove he's scum or not. The point is to prove someone is scum, not prove that they're bad. Xatalos would be pushing for a scum agenda by causing chaos, creating multiple targets or securing a mislynch. Corazon only mentioned he could be inactive later, and he's played enough games to know how these posts are frowned upon.
You don't think Mafia's primary agenda is to survive? Creating an excuse at the start of the game after roles are sent out which explains away the common drop in activity that many experience when playing scums fit's that agenda perfectly.
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On December 10 2013 19:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:48 Plutarch wrote:On December 10 2013 19:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 19:41 Holyflare wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you in regards to pushing "scum agendas". It's quite simple for a person to not do anything other than their normal town play as scum on day 1. Why would scum be pushing "agendas" so brazenly? The only reason they would need to conform to some agenda would be to get votes off of a person if it was their scum buddy - in this case - it would be off of cora who he is attacking. If he's not pushing any agenda then there is nothing in his posts that prove he's scum or not. The point is to prove someone is scum, not prove that they're bad. Xatalos would be pushing for a scum agenda by causing chaos, creating multiple targets or securing a mislynch. Corazon only mentioned he could be inactive later, and he's played enough games to know how these posts are frowned upon. You don't think Mafia's primary agenda is to survive? Creating an excuse at the start of the game after roles are sent out which explains away the common drop in activity that many experience when playing scums fit's that agenda perfectly. I didn't think scum would be that blatant about it given that first posts like these often result in pressure. I just realized that there's no town reason for it either if they know that. I feel pretty silly now.
Read the interaction between myself and Cora and tell me what you think of Cora attempting to derail and then leaving the discussion.
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On December 10 2013 20:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:Plutarch after doing some research you need to elaborate on this: Show nested quote +I am not convinced by this push on Xatalos. In my experience he is more likely to take a back seat as scum than to jump around driving discussion. In which game(s) do you base your observations you are talking about here?
I can't tell you that as It would probably reveal my identity.
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On December 10 2013 20:08 kushm4sta wrote:
townlist
xatalos - talking a lot early game for no reason at all! Ive seen him play scum and he didn't post that much. Has this been changed by recent meta?
holyflare- scum kill this dude d1
yup i haven't read everything yet
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can i get some consolidation please? cause i dont want to read all this complicated shit everyone is writing.
ok standby for next post which will contain important shit
Kush said it too though. Perhaps that helps.
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EPT
