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On December 10 2013 19:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Well lately i always make a case on scum on D1 so you guys can just sheep me.
Wat. No.
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I feel kind of indignant. I thought my posts had almost too obvious meaning.
I mean really...
Anyway, how I gather a read. The way I gather reads needed(eeds) to change. Past methods weren't working, I am too stoic and bland and always wrong. I gotta shake things up or start co-hosting, and if I can't understand playing the game I won't be any good at balance.
Xigxag, I wish I was quoting literature so that I could respond appropriately but I am wholly oblivious. If my light in a glass looks like Edison's work, let me assure you I am French. I am winging practically everything I say to maintain relevancy to this game.
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On December 10 2013 19:33 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. It's simple. Cora's post could not achieve any scum agenda. I don't see scum reasoning behind his posts more so than a town player would, whereas Xalatos' posts can definitely serve a scum agenda, and I feel they have though I liked his followups since then. I like LSB's points on Sidesprang and Rayn's points on purple. Rayn's more so than LSB but I'd need to do a rereading and I'm lazy.
Don't just say that Xatalos' post could serve a mafia agenda and Cora's couldn't. Provide some evidence or reasoning.
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Netherlands12968 Posts
On December 10 2013 19:41 Holyflare wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you in regards to pushing "scum agendas". It's quite simple for a person to not do anything other than their normal town play as scum on day 1. Why would scum be pushing "agendas" so brazenly? The only reason they would need to conform to some agenda would be to get votes off of a person if it was their scum buddy - in this case - it would be off of cora who he is attacking.
If he's not pushing any agenda then there is nothing in his posts that prove he's scum or not. The point is to prove someone is scum, not prove that they're bad. Xatalos would be pushing for a scum agenda by causing chaos, creating multiple targets or securing a mislynch. Corazon only mentioned he could be inactive later, and he's played enough games to know how these posts are frowned upon.
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On December 10 2013 19:45 Alakaslam wrote:
I feel kind of indignant. I thought my posts had almost too obvious meaning.
I mean really...
Anyway, how I gather a read. The way I gather reads needed(eeds) to change. Past methods weren't working, I am too stoic and bland and always wrong. I gotta shake things up or start co-hosting, and if I can't understand playing the game I won't be any good at balance.
Xigxag, I wish I was quoting literature so that I could respond appropriately but I am wholly oblivious. If my light in a glass looks like Edison's work, let me assure you I am French. I am winging practically everything I say to maintain relevancy to this game.
I don't care. Please do something useful and post simply and in a straightforward manner.
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Netherlands12968 Posts
Actually if he knew those posts are frowned upon he wouldn't make them regardless of alignment. Huh.
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On December 10 2013 19:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:41 Holyflare wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you in regards to pushing "scum agendas". It's quite simple for a person to not do anything other than their normal town play as scum on day 1. Why would scum be pushing "agendas" so brazenly? The only reason they would need to conform to some agenda would be to get votes off of a person if it was their scum buddy - in this case - it would be off of cora who he is attacking. If he's not pushing any agenda then there is nothing in his posts that prove he's scum or not. The point is to prove someone is scum, not prove that they're bad. Xatalos would be pushing for a scum agenda by causing chaos, creating multiple targets or securing a mislynch. Corazon only mentioned he could be inactive later, and he's played enough games to know how these posts are frowned upon.
You don't think Mafia's primary agenda is to survive? Creating an excuse at the start of the game after roles are sent out which explains away the common drop in activity that many experience when playing scums fit's that agenda perfectly.
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On December 10 2013 19:48 Plutarch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 19:41 Holyflare wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you in regards to pushing "scum agendas". It's quite simple for a person to not do anything other than their normal town play as scum on day 1. Why would scum be pushing "agendas" so brazenly? The only reason they would need to conform to some agenda would be to get votes off of a person if it was their scum buddy - in this case - it would be off of cora who he is attacking. If he's not pushing any agenda then there is nothing in his posts that prove he's scum or not. The point is to prove someone is scum, not prove that they're bad. Xatalos would be pushing for a scum agenda by causing chaos, creating multiple targets or securing a mislynch. Corazon only mentioned he could be inactive later, and he's played enough games to know how these posts are frowned upon. You don't think Mafia's primary agenda is to survive? Creating an excuse at the start of the game after roles are sent out which explains away the common drop in activity that many experience when playing scums fit's that agenda perfectly.
I didn't think scum would be that blatant about it given that first posts like these often result in pressure. I just realized that there's no town reason for it either if they know that. I feel pretty silly now.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
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So Artanis how is Xatalos pushing scum agenda if you take accont into what i said about him regarding how he plays as town? Why can't he just be eager to start the discussion and gather information?
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On December 10 2013 19:53 Holyflare wrote:
Dat backtracking
I hunt scum based on finding scum reasoning. I didn't find it with Cora, but I did find it with Xata. Came onto new insights after being questioned. Any other questions?
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On December 10 2013 19:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:48 Plutarch wrote:On December 10 2013 19:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 19:41 Holyflare wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you in regards to pushing "scum agendas". It's quite simple for a person to not do anything other than their normal town play as scum on day 1. Why would scum be pushing "agendas" so brazenly? The only reason they would need to conform to some agenda would be to get votes off of a person if it was their scum buddy - in this case - it would be off of cora who he is attacking. If he's not pushing any agenda then there is nothing in his posts that prove he's scum or not. The point is to prove someone is scum, not prove that they're bad. Xatalos would be pushing for a scum agenda by causing chaos, creating multiple targets or securing a mislynch. Corazon only mentioned he could be inactive later, and he's played enough games to know how these posts are frowned upon. You don't think Mafia's primary agenda is to survive? Creating an excuse at the start of the game after roles are sent out which explains away the common drop in activity that many experience when playing scums fit's that agenda perfectly. I didn't think scum would be that blatant about it given that first posts like these often result in pressure. I just realized that there's no town reason for it either if they know that. I feel pretty silly now.
Read the interaction between myself and Cora and tell me what you think of Cora attempting to derail and then leaving the discussion.
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On December 10 2013 19:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So Artanis how is Xatalos pushing scum agenda if you take accont into what i said about him regarding how he plays as town? Why can't he just be eager to start the discussion and gather information?
I'm not familiar with Xatalos' meta, or don't remember. I don't feel like a scattershot aids town, and I feel it serves a scum agenda so I pursued. Yes, it's possible he could just be eager to start discussion. Anyone can be town until they flip.
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On December 10 2013 19:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I hunt scum based on finding scum reasoning. I didn't find it with Cora, but I did find it with Xata. Came onto new insights after being questioned. Any other questions?
Every point I made on cora in my filter is fueled by a scum agenda so I see no reason why you would not investigate/discuss it further and then move onto Xatalos instead.
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On December 10 2013 19:57 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 19:53 Holyflare wrote:
Dat backtracking I hunt scum based on finding scum reasoning. I didn't find it with Cora, but I did find it with Xata. Came onto new insights after being questioned. Any other questions? Every point I made on cora in my filter is fueled by a scum agenda so I see no reason why you would not investigate/discuss it further and then move onto Xatalos instead.
Because Cora's initial post made me think he was unlikely to be scum and skimming through your post I didn't find anything that negated that. I needed to think about the original post again, apparently.
Plutarch, I'll get back to you after breakfast and a shower.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On December 10 2013 20:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:57 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 19:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 19:53 Holyflare wrote:
Dat backtracking I hunt scum based on finding scum reasoning. I didn't find it with Cora, but I did find it with Xata. Came onto new insights after being questioned. Any other questions? Every point I made on cora in my filter is fueled by a scum agenda so I see no reason why you would not investigate/discuss it further and then move onto Xatalos instead. Because Cora's initial post made me think he was unlikely to be scum and skimming through your post I didn't find anything that negated that. I needed to think about the original post again, apparently. Plutarch, I'll get back to you after breakfast and a shower.
So in light of your new findings, re-read everything I said objectively and paint me the picture of cora's alignment from it.
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On December 10 2013 13:35 LSB wrote:General comments: purpletrator is being incredibly defensive and showing off as paranoid to me xatalos has been powerplaying quite hard day 1, and typically lynches of major town voices go badly day 1. Push PostPersonally I think the most important post so far is this Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 10:10 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 09:42 sidesprang wrote:
Ok, so a lot of things going on. I agree we should not let lurkers stay silent, and should poke anyone that stays silent for to long. But there is a lot of value in not spamming down the thread if you are town, that will only make the scummy post harder to see. I'm mainly looking at you Xatalos, as you are on your third page in filter with like half of the post being oneliners. Even if town you will be detrimental to the town if you keep this up! There are others aswell, just used you as an example.
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About Cora there are a few things I did not like and caught my eye. His opening post is not good, and if he's mafia hes basically just buying himself an excuse to lurk for day 1 and then come out day 2 and bring chaos onto the town.
He also deflected a lot in his defence and basically just said "look at X he's scummier than me".
And lastly he asked for people to vote for him if they found him scummy, which is very Anti-Town.
I do not feel cora is mafia yet at least, but definetly worth to look at.
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@Kish, can anyone that have played with him earlier say something about how he plays. He is deffo playing the most anti town atm, but he's also doing it on purpose which is frustrating.
I really really do not like this post as an entry post: A) Sheeps everthing I have mentioned on Cora. B) Uses a big chunk of his entry post saying why cora is displaying mafia associated traits but won't vote him yet? C) Mentions Xatalos in a completely non-inquisitive manner, no justification on a read based on Xan's posts or anything. Sidesprang, what do you think of Xatalos so far? He has been pressured quite hard this game, were his responses more town alignment indicative to you? I've already mentioned how I felt the initial read of Cora was incredibly forced. This can easily attributed to Holyflare's overeagerness. What is important to keep an eye out are the bandwagoners. Or the "bait and switch" approach. Make a flimsy case, wait for someone to quickly jump on your plan, and finger the bandwagoner as mafia. The logic behind this is that very few townies would be willing to push a bad lynch, but a mafia would be willing to push many lynches on greenies regarless of the contents of the lynches. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 11:13 sidesprang wrote:On December 10 2013 10:10 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 09:42 sidesprang wrote:
Ok, so a lot of things going on. I agree we should not let lurkers stay silent, and should poke anyone that stays silent for to long. But there is a lot of value in not spamming down the thread if you are town, that will only make the scummy post harder to see. I'm mainly looking at you Xatalos, as you are on your third page in filter with like half of the post being oneliners. Even if town you will be detrimental to the town if you keep this up! There are others aswell, just used you as an example.
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About Cora there are a few things I did not like and caught my eye. His opening post is not good, and if he's mafia hes basically just buying himself an excuse to lurk for day 1 and then come out day 2 and bring chaos onto the town.
He also deflected a lot in his defence and basically just said "look at X he's scummier than me".
And lastly he asked for people to vote for him if they found him scummy, which is very Anti-Town.
I do not feel cora is mafia yet at least, but definetly worth to look at.
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@Kish, can anyone that have played with him earlier say something about how he plays. He is deffo playing the most anti town atm, but he's also doing it on purpose which is frustrating.
I really really do not like this post as an entry post: A) Sheeps everthing I have mentioned on Cora. B) Uses a big chunk of his entry post saying why cora is displaying mafia associated traits but won't vote him yet? C) Mentions Xatalos in a completely non-inquisitive manner, no justification on a read based on Xan's posts or anything. Sidesprang, what do you think of Xatalos so far? He has been pressured quite hard this game, were his responses more town alignment indicative to you? A) I might be blind but I dont see you mention everything I mentioned, but if I still find it scummy would I not be allowed to say it ? B) I don't see a reason for voting anyone yet, he is deffo looking scummy but It's still early in D1. C) The point about Xatalos was a plea to the Town that people should rather focus on more quality over quantity when posting. Can I not do that in a non-inquisitive manner? I said I just used him as an example. About Xatalos, I deffo dont like his opening. He goes after Cora and Kush which I think its fine, but also goes after Slam and Spag which had barely spoken and had not said anything scummy. So Artanis evaluation of him fits nicely, tho I wont say he is mafia because of it. He might just do it to start discussion, as he says he likes all the action happning here. I dont and will keep an eye on him. And his defence was kinda just meta, "saying that is how he plays", and I dont know the guy. Might be true might not be. I dont like meta defences and its another thing that will make me keep an eye on him. Indeed he continues his bandwagony attitude. Although there have only been two posts from him, bait and switch has a 100% success rate (n = 1), and I might as well go with it. I am seriously concerned about his willingness to support lynches without contributing much personal insights. ##unvote##Vote; sidesprang
Okay I see I'm off to a rocky start.
You might say I'm bandwagoning because I did not have any insight that I came up with myself, but it was the only read I had. Would you rather I stay silent? And I'm not willing to push for a lynch on Cora and Xatalos, I thought I made it clear I did in no way find them scummy enough to vote on yet. I dont like to fling my vote around without justification, and if I did so it would only make me look scummy.
And for the second post I dont really see how you can say im bandwagoning, I was asked a question and I answered, I had no intentions of going after Xatalos at all. And now that grack and rayn basically said it was normal play for it. I will just assume that he inteded to create some discussion.
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Plutarch after doing some research you need to elaborate on this:
I am not convinced by this push on Xatalos. In my experience he is more likely to take a back seat as scum than to jump around driving discussion.
In which game(s) do you base your observations you are talking about here?
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townlist
xatalos - talking a lot early game for no reason at all! Ive seen him play scum and he didn't post that much. Has this been changed by recent meta?
holyflare- scum kill this dude d1
yup i haven't read everything yet
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can i get some consolidation please? cause i dont want to read all this complicated shit everyone is writing.
ok standby for next post which will contain important shit
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On December 10 2013 20:07 sidesprang wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 13:35 LSB wrote:General comments: purpletrator is being incredibly defensive and showing off as paranoid to me xatalos has been powerplaying quite hard day 1, and typically lynches of major town voices go badly day 1. Push PostPersonally I think the most important post so far is this On December 10 2013 10:10 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 09:42 sidesprang wrote:
Ok, so a lot of things going on. I agree we should not let lurkers stay silent, and should poke anyone that stays silent for to long. But there is a lot of value in not spamming down the thread if you are town, that will only make the scummy post harder to see. I'm mainly looking at you Xatalos, as you are on your third page in filter with like half of the post being oneliners. Even if town you will be detrimental to the town if you keep this up! There are others aswell, just used you as an example.
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About Cora there are a few things I did not like and caught my eye. His opening post is not good, and if he's mafia hes basically just buying himself an excuse to lurk for day 1 and then come out day 2 and bring chaos onto the town.
He also deflected a lot in his defence and basically just said "look at X he's scummier than me".
And lastly he asked for people to vote for him if they found him scummy, which is very Anti-Town.
I do not feel cora is mafia yet at least, but definetly worth to look at.
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@Kish, can anyone that have played with him earlier say something about how he plays. He is deffo playing the most anti town atm, but he's also doing it on purpose which is frustrating.
I really really do not like this post as an entry post: A) Sheeps everthing I have mentioned on Cora. B) Uses a big chunk of his entry post saying why cora is displaying mafia associated traits but won't vote him yet? C) Mentions Xatalos in a completely non-inquisitive manner, no justification on a read based on Xan's posts or anything. Sidesprang, what do you think of Xatalos so far? He has been pressured quite hard this game, were his responses more town alignment indicative to you? I've already mentioned how I felt the initial read of Cora was incredibly forced. This can easily attributed to Holyflare's overeagerness. What is important to keep an eye out are the bandwagoners. Or the "bait and switch" approach. Make a flimsy case, wait for someone to quickly jump on your plan, and finger the bandwagoner as mafia. The logic behind this is that very few townies would be willing to push a bad lynch, but a mafia would be willing to push many lynches on greenies regarless of the contents of the lynches. On December 10 2013 11:13 sidesprang wrote:On December 10 2013 10:10 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 09:42 sidesprang wrote:
Ok, so a lot of things going on. I agree we should not let lurkers stay silent, and should poke anyone that stays silent for to long. But there is a lot of value in not spamming down the thread if you are town, that will only make the scummy post harder to see. I'm mainly looking at you Xatalos, as you are on your third page in filter with like half of the post being oneliners. Even if town you will be detrimental to the town if you keep this up! There are others aswell, just used you as an example.
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About Cora there are a few things I did not like and caught my eye. His opening post is not good, and if he's mafia hes basically just buying himself an excuse to lurk for day 1 and then come out day 2 and bring chaos onto the town.
He also deflected a lot in his defence and basically just said "look at X he's scummier than me".
And lastly he asked for people to vote for him if they found him scummy, which is very Anti-Town.
I do not feel cora is mafia yet at least, but definetly worth to look at.
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@Kish, can anyone that have played with him earlier say something about how he plays. He is deffo playing the most anti town atm, but he's also doing it on purpose which is frustrating.
I really really do not like this post as an entry post: A) Sheeps everthing I have mentioned on Cora. B) Uses a big chunk of his entry post saying why cora is displaying mafia associated traits but won't vote him yet? C) Mentions Xatalos in a completely non-inquisitive manner, no justification on a read based on Xan's posts or anything. Sidesprang, what do you think of Xatalos so far? He has been pressured quite hard this game, were his responses more town alignment indicative to you? A) I might be blind but I dont see you mention everything I mentioned, but if I still find it scummy would I not be allowed to say it ? B) I don't see a reason for voting anyone yet, he is deffo looking scummy but It's still early in D1. C) The point about Xatalos was a plea to the Town that people should rather focus on more quality over quantity when posting. Can I not do that in a non-inquisitive manner? I said I just used him as an example. About Xatalos, I deffo dont like his opening. He goes after Cora and Kush which I think its fine, but also goes after Slam and Spag which had barely spoken and had not said anything scummy. So Artanis evaluation of him fits nicely, tho I wont say he is mafia because of it. He might just do it to start discussion, as he says he likes all the action happning here. I dont and will keep an eye on him. And his defence was kinda just meta, "saying that is how he plays", and I dont know the guy. Might be true might not be. I dont like meta defences and its another thing that will make me keep an eye on him. Indeed he continues his bandwagony attitude. Although there have only been two posts from him, bait and switch has a 100% success rate (n = 1), and I might as well go with it. I am seriously concerned about his willingness to support lynches without contributing much personal insights. ##unvote##Vote; sidesprang Okay I see I'm off to a rocky start. You might say I'm bandwagoning because I did not have any insight that I came up with myself, but it was the only read I had. Would you rather I stay silent? And I'm not willing to push for a lynch on Cora and Xatalos, I thought I made it clear I did in no way find them scummy enough to vote on yet. I dont like to fling my vote around without justification, and if I did so it would only make me look scummy. And for the second post I dont really see how you can say im bandwagoning, I was asked a question and I answered, I had no intentions of going after Xatalos at all. And now that grack and rayn basically said it was normal play for it. I will just assume that he inteded to create some discussion.
You haven't given us any reasons as to why you aren't going to push them (apart fron xatalos). You displayed your reads on cora and found him worth checking into more. How has that now developed to not wanting to lynch at all and why are you not willing to push them for more information?
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EPT
