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His reasons for not liking Xatalos are really bad. His exchange with Alakaslam was weird and i would think he would have same sort of thought process on purple that i had in case he was trying to figure out people's intentions behind their posts.
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Yeah but i don't think either of Xata/Cora is scummy atm.
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The main point about Xatalos is he tends to start games as town as i used to. Asking questions left and right to start discussion. It was really hard to play against him in GoT because he was eager to gather all the possible information and question everything going on especially in the beginning of the game to find people's intentions. I basically had to try to distract / discredit him by calling him scummy in the same way i feel like Artanis is doing atm. The statement about the similitaries/differences in Xata/Cora Plutarch brings up regarding Artanis strengthens my scumread on him.
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EBWOP: I don't know if Xatalos does that as scum aswell but it definitely is not a scum-tell as i know he does that as town.
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Plutarch i don't like this:
I see some dissonance between your first point and your second. Why would you be so inclined towards policy on low activity players when you have just acknowledged that people can be town and not be active?
Perhaps as you say you only require town to be active and you are, in fact, scum?
That is, as Cora says, clearly twisting his words.
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Yeah i agree with you. That's fishy indeed.
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Well lately i always make a case on scum on D1 so you guys can just sheep me.
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So Artanis how is Xatalos pushing scum agenda if you take accont into what i said about him regarding how he plays as town? Why can't he just be eager to start the discussion and gather information?
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Plutarch after doing some research you need to elaborate on this:
I am not convinced by this push on Xatalos. In my experience he is more likely to take a back seat as scum than to jump around driving discussion.
In which game(s) do you base your observations you are talking about here?
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On December 10 2013 20:09 Plutarch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:Plutarch after doing some research you need to elaborate on this: I am not convinced by this push on Xatalos. In my experience he is more likely to take a back seat as scum than to jump around driving discussion. In which game(s) do you base your observations you are talking about here? I can't tell you that as It would probably reveal my identity.
I Dessert Mini Mafia there are a lot of similitaries in Xatalos' posting in comparsion to this game D1. Posting frequency at the start of the game is also quite similar to this game. There are also certain things Xatalos does as scum but i don't really see him doing as town (although i still need to look into NWM to confirm that as Sicilian does not really work as a comparsion as it was a PM game). But but, i really want to know where you and kushmasta are coming from with this, especially kushmasta as Xatalos treats him exactly the same way in Dessert he treats him in this game.
Smells like bullshit.
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Yes NWM confirmed this smells like bullshit.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 13 2013 10:00 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 09:50 jaybrundage wrote:On January 13 2013 09:27 Xatalos wrote:That smilie doesn't really mean anything, but rather look at jay's post before it. On January 13 2013 09:01 jaybrundage wrote:On January 13 2013 08:49 kushm4sta wrote:Wow I was going to try hard this game but then prome said what he said now I have to play like shit just to spite him. ~~~ On January 13 2013 07:08 Dandel Ion wrote:If Kush goes retard in this game I'll just modkill him  I'll have no qualms about that. Define full retard.
I will not play illegally that is all I can promise. The way your entering the thread is terrible your setting the town up for failure. Its hard enough to play mafia when people are trying there best. If your gonna play like shit and it make it intentionally hard to read you I have no problem lynching you. You looking scummy as it is. You can step it up, Or get lynched your call. That's just too aggressive for my taste. Did anyone else react like that to Kushm4sta's (trollish) posting? Why would it be scummy to draw attention without any need? Xatalos I dont know about you. But I dont want someone trolling in a mafia game. Why put up with someones bullshit so he can spite someone. If hes scum then he can just use to get away with scummy shit. I dont want to put up with that. So I rather put a stop to it now. Yeah, his behaviour is anti-town. But is it scummy? Have you ever seen a scum player opening the discussion with something that will make people less opposed to lynching him? On January 13 2013 11:07 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 09:47 kushm4sta wrote:
fyi i dont read megacases, so keep that in mind.
k this is my last intro post.
Next time I post it will be telling you who i think is scum. Why are you even playing this game if you don't want to put in effort? I can't imagine scum playing like that, but that's still not an excuse to play anti-town. On January 13 2013 11:17 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 11:08 jaybrundage wrote:
@Xalalos
Well Zentor is already defending me lol. I can see him being townie again. Althought i never seen a scummy Zentor.
But as it is so far im leaning town. But regardless i rather not talk about town reads. Anything you think is scummmy as of yet? Well, I haven't seen anything really scummy yet. Mostly I'm concerned with your entrance to the thread and thrawn's lack of engagement. And Kushm4sta's attitude, although it's not actually scummy, but it's still anti-town. On January 13 2013 13:56 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 13:19 MrZentor wrote:
Well, he was in it, I suppose, but he didn't read the last half. Well, you did make a huge comeback later in the game. But you've posted more stuff so far in this game than during the early game there... On January 13 2013 14:12 Xatalos wrote:
Well... I can actually relate to that kind of thinking. I was under heavy suspicion last game for switching my reads based on others' opinions. It's still scummy though, but on the other hand, it's a blatantly scummy thing to do that actual scum wouldn't do (at least so clearly). Conclusion? Tentatively town, purely based on you doing too many anti-town/scummy things for it to make any sense as scum. It sounds stupid, yeah, but it's actually logical. Playing like that makes you get heavy pressure and you end up most likely claiming scum at some point unless you're an amazing player.
(It's pronounced Ksatalos btw, lol)
Here is a series of extremely wishy-washy posts from Dessert Mini mafia from Xatalos. Compare this to what Artanis said and quoted from him and tell me if they are similar or not? This is also ~20% of Xatalos' posts from D1 in Dessert - Sloosh made a case on him based on this and some other things right after those posts.
I also looked over Xatalos' posts on Sicilian and NWM and in no posts he uses this "this could be scummy but is it in fact?" he does in this game and Dessert.
Here is what JJD said in reference (this game):
+ Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 14:29 JarJarDrinks wrote:FOSing Xatalos. I agree w/ the whole flinging poo analysis. And this post: Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:10 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 07:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:04 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 07:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I don't like Xatalos right now and I'm curious if anyone sees what I see before I say why. Gladly oblige. Quick to hop on someone really really unreasonably early and with not the greatest logic in the world? My behavior right off is worse but he votes cora I am so bad I am useful to scum in the lategame, so he would rather mislynch cora who though not perfect, is definitely better at being town than me. Probably not exactly your point but I think you are also seeing the quick to lynch attitude. And the slightly unreasonable aggressiveness. I'm seeing a scattershot that's flinging poo everywhere and found someone to whom it will stick. I don't feel like he's trying to discern anyone's alignment, but rather start chaos and find a nice lynch target. ##Vote Xatalos Well, that's one way to look at it. The other is that I'm always relatively aggressive as town. Just really seems like he's trying to explain how he's trying to play to his town meta and he's pissed that Artan isn't seeing it that way. I'm also noticing that he's giving alot of his reads a qualifier. A bunch of "this guy is scummy but he could be town too" or vice versa. Check these: Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:30 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 07:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 07:16 Spaghetticus wrote:
Xatalos do you think Artanis' point about you scatter-shotting is a good one? Artanis has a good eye. Maybe I ought to calm down a bit. However, I'm tired of slow first days. It feels good to get something going fast. Do you think my pressure on you is indicative of my alignment? Hard to say. I'd say slightly leaning town based on the fact that you're apparently trying to unravel my alignment. But I think you're a veteran player? How many games have you played? In that sense, it could possibly be almost anything. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 07:33 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Oh wait I can just click profile here. 15. OK. Well, it's definitely possible that this is a "play" to get town credit. But then again, the more likely scenario is that you're town and trying to figure out the game. Your experience makes the former option more likely, but still less likely than the later option, I'd say. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:16 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:15 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 08:12 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:04 Spaghetticus wrote:
Slam is actively obfuscating his intentions with spam. I don't like.
Corazon is a candidate for lynch day one, I'm waiting to see how he responds.
I am suspicious of you, but I think that is more a product of you being in the spotlight rather than any real problems I've got with you so far. I will continue to pay attention to your responses. Hmm, okay. When you say you don't "like", do you mean as in scummy or annoying? Dunno, Thanatos. What do you think? Judging by his vote, probably scummy. But it could be just an empty vote, I guess. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:25 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:20 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 08:16 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:15 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 08:12 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:04 Spaghetticus wrote:
Slam is actively obfuscating his intentions with spam. I don't like.
Corazon is a candidate for lynch day one, I'm waiting to see how he responds.
I am suspicious of you, but I think that is more a product of you being in the spotlight rather than any real problems I've got with you so far. I will continue to pay attention to your responses. Hmm, okay. When you say you don't "like", do you mean as in scummy or annoying? Dunno, Thanatos. What do you think? Judging by his vote, probably scummy. But it could be just an empty vote, I guess. Be not dodging the question as askt What do you think? I think you're being suicidal if you're scum, so it's a bit more likely that you're town, but overall somewhat null so far. Does he have any reads he's confident about?
Notice the similitaries?
Now wtf are you talking about Plutach and kush?
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On December 10 2013 20:38 Holyflare wrote:
it's iamperfection
i figured that's the most likely answer too
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It's not yamato it is someone who's been i a game with him when Xata has been scum.
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On December 10 2013 20:44 Plutarch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:20 kushm4sta wrote:
@rayn i dont remember what game dessert was. I actually better remember xatalos' meta from a game i played with him several months ago when I first started playing mafia. He posted as little as possible without looking like a lurker.
If his meta has changed as you suggest, that I take back my townread of him. I was talking about this very game! That I didn't play in.
Interesting. In case you are not lying about the game you are talking about how do you explain your use of words [u]in my experience when it cannot possibly be "in your experience"?[/i]
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So when you are talking about Xatalos' scum meta why do you not look at games that are close to this one in terms of size? And games that are most recent (hint: Dessert)?
Kush and Plutarch does either one of you have anything to say about my post on Xatalos?
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On December 10 2013 20:57 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So when you are talking about Xatalos' scum meta why do you not look at games that are close to this one in terms of size? And games that are most recent (hint: Dessert)?
Kush and Plutarch does either one of you have anything to say about my post on Xatalos? I'm not so sure they match up. In the ones that you linked they are all fluff and undecided. In this game he's discussing things and although is undecided I don't get the same feeling of style from it.
I am more interested why a skilled player like Plutarch makes a half-arsed meta read on him. That's quite inexcusible, given that i think the nature of the posts is in fact quite similar.
In both of the games Xatalos calls kushmasta anti-town but not necessarily scum. He calls people out and then says "but while this could be scummy it also could be not". He does not reach into any conclusions while prodding left and right. This early on in the game i would agree it does not necessarily make him scum - as i said, but what bothers me is how certain people defend him based on false/bad evidence.
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On December 10 2013 21:10 kushm4sta wrote:
@rayne i looked at dessert and it looks like xatalos is acting almost opposite of that.
As scum in dessert his early game was giving reluctant townreads based on blatant antitowniness.
This game he wants to lynch me for antitowniness.
Actually unless i ahve misunderstood something he doesn't.
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Okay let's drop this since it's not leading into anything that can certainly be judged into a way or another (unless someone disagrees).
Grackaroni and Xatalos comments on my case on purple?
Spaghetticus i second Plutarch. In LXIII you were quite clearly town from your posting on D1. I don't see even a shoadow from that towninees here. What are you doing?
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EPT
