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On December 01 2013 05:05 marvellosity wrote:
yeah I don't know, was just browsing down the list superfast and I didn't particularly see anything worth banning. And alignment roles were stronger than I thought.
It kinda feels like maybe town will pick up KP roles to automatically take them away from mafia.
I think the only KP role worth considering banning might be Warwick.
I think framer & info-denying roles are worth banning because that way scum need to make a decision of letting cops be in game or ban them. Both scenarios are good for town because cops without ~100% guarantee are shit as you can always argue "but the framer/godfather blabla". If scum deny inv-roles, they leave more room for other strong roles.
And info-denying roles + framer are roles that serve no purpose for townies to pick, they are roles that need to be denied but never used as town. Why not just ban them?
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On December 01 2013 05:08 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 05:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Example:
You could argue that the inventor role should be denied because if scum pick it they can make horrible horrible inventions and punish town for it. Will scum pick it? Fuck no, because we will have townies in top of the draft. That's an interesting mentality you have there rayn.
I am pretty sure my top 5 townies list has all town atm. :p
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I'm gonna be gone for a bit so I sent my numbers in, [6] was one of them.
Also rayn I'd like to hear an updated opinion on geript.
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On December 01 2013 05:13 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I'm gonna be gone for a bit so I sent my numbers in, [6] was one of them.
Also rayn I'd like to hear an updated opinion on geript.
geript is town. totally.
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@Rayn. Graves is a bad ban choice. Scum banning cops will be irrelevant of whether Graves will be available. At best, Graves is a role which a low draft scum may pick up because town are highly unlikely to take it. That's not worth a ban. Banning a powerful KP ability to deny it from scum is better.
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United States4714 Posts
Heimer and Evelynn seem like the 2 strongest roles in the hands of mafia that don't help town as much. Heimer potentially gives 2 extra kp a night and isn't as good for town, since we don't know alignments. Evelynn is kp and avoids watchers/trackers, pretty much the only kp role that is only good for mafia and not town.
#Ban Evelynn
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United States4714 Posts
Actually Urgot is insanely good for mafia.
#unvote
#Ban Urgot
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On December 01 2013 05:25 geript wrote:
@Rayn. Graves is a bad ban choice. Scum banning cops will be irrelevant of whether Graves will be available. At best, Graves is a role which a low draft scum may pick up because town are highly unlikely to take it. That's not worth a ban. Banning a powerful KP ability to deny it from scum is better.
We can pick the powerful KP-roles and use it as town. We can't use framer as town in any way.
That's why it's a better ban.
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On December 01 2013 05:25 geript wrote:
@Rayn. Graves is a bad ban choice. Scum banning cops will be irrelevant of whether Graves will be available. At best, Graves is a role which a low draft scum may pick up because town are highly unlikely to take it. That's not worth a ban. Banning a powerful KP ability to deny it from scum is better.
If we don't ban Graves all investigations might aswell be useless because they could just be framed.
KP roles are not good in the hands of scum either but there's more important bans to be made (Graves/Yorick)
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Hi Thread...
On December 01 2013 04:49 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can we have 6 votes on Graves aswell and then 6 on Nocturne? Then everyone else can vote for those three however they like. That would be my bans.
Also i am picking [1][1]. I prolly won't get the first spot as Mocsta is apparently afk and said before the game he will do the same, but w/e. I suggest the following based on my townreads:
[2][1] geript
[3][1] OdinOfPergo
[4][1] supersoft
[5][1] JonnyLaw
[6][1] Oatsmaster
That's my plan. Everyone else can pick w/e, because they are not town enough or scummy.
VE, Oats and Kurumi have dedicated the game into "let's bitch on rayn" but i don't care, let them do whatever they want. ^^
Good catch on Rean Oats, i didn't realize he was not new, as he hasn't played in a long time.
Rayn, your plan makes sense but I am not convinced by your townreads to be honest. And even if guys like oats are town I would like other town players to get the really good roles (no offense). Will have to think about that some more.
On December 01 2013 02:36 Kurumi wrote:
We don't give out our pick numbers until we know the draft results. It worked last PYP and I am going to do same here.
Can you explain that to me? I don't understand the plan.
On December 01 2013 03:04 Kurumi wrote:
I am going to find the fastest way to kill rayn, just throwing it out. He's aggressive, being all around dick for the sake of being a dick and tries to shove his "great plan" based on his own reads on all of town. I might even pick 1,1 just out of spite.
This is really anti town. Rayn is always a dick and especially so as town.
And this is very true btw.:
On November 30 2013 20:05 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 20:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On November 30 2013 20:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Have you read anything i have written Oats? you said sandro is scum for xxx reasons. Which is kinda wrong because sandro wont even post more than once or twice if hes scum. Whats wrong with SS's vet plan? So you have not read anything. check. The problem with assigning vets to top picks is that we should assign townies to top picks. Anything else is idiotic.
On November 30 2013 21:27 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Well i don't wanna play in a game where people say making bad posts is a town-tell for anyone and where people say i can't have a scumread on someone based on that they are incapable of posting 10 times / phase as scum.
I honestly don't give a fuck if you lynch me. I couldn't care less because lately TL town have been absolutely crap. Me + Risen should get top 2 spots and then we just shoot stupidity. That's the best plan.
Really? Risen? Come on...
So, I think Yorick should definitely be banned. Graves is an ok choice too (because low placed scum can almost safely pick him - no town would take this role). I liked Migs post. My vote for the third would be Evelynn. Any problems with that?
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On December 01 2013 05:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 05:25 geript wrote:
@Rayn. Graves is a bad ban choice. Scum banning cops will be irrelevant of whether Graves will be available. At best, Graves is a role which a low draft scum may pick up because town are highly unlikely to take it. That's not worth a ban. Banning a powerful KP ability to deny it from scum is better. We can pick the powerful KP-roles and use it as town. We can't use framer as town in any way. That's why it's a better ban.
I disagree. Because it's far easier for scum to coordinate the draft phase (town plays as selfish individual while scum plays as a team), then scum is far more likely to end up with 2-3 early drafters to grab those early picks.
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On December 01 2013 05:43 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 05:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:On December 01 2013 05:25 geript wrote:
@Rayn. Graves is a bad ban choice. Scum banning cops will be irrelevant of whether Graves will be available. At best, Graves is a role which a low draft scum may pick up because town are highly unlikely to take it. That's not worth a ban. Banning a powerful KP ability to deny it from scum is better. We can pick the powerful KP-roles and use it as town. We can't use framer as town in any way. That's why it's a better ban. I disagree. Because it's far easier for scum to coordinate the draft phase (town plays as selfish individual while scum plays as a team), then scum is far more likely to end up with 2-3 early drafters to grab those early picks.
This is easier said than done. I picked like 10/10 in the last PYP and ended up like 3rd pick or something. Coordinating to get picks is hard for mafia to do imo.
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Why do you people think denying KP-roles is a "must"?
Let's compare (i'll make it easy):
Vigilante:
town use: do not shoot (deny) if you dunno what to do, or shoot scum / scumread
scum use: shoot town (you might get caught when claim / tracker / watcher)
town use = good/null, scum use = bad for town/might get caught
Framer/Janitor:
town use: absolutely none (deny)
scum use: pro-scum/might get caught (when claim / tracker / watcher)
town use = bleh, scum use = bad for town/might get caught
Conclusion: Pro-scum roles (info-denying/ -altering) are way worse for town than KP-roles. In addition to that, you can't even say "scum will pick these" because townies want them too. Which townie REALLY want's to be a framer and never do anything with the role?
So yeah, argue as you will but info-denying / -altering roles are best for being banned. Period.
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Harder if people don't broadcast what they're picking all over the damn internet.
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On December 01 2013 05:46 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 05:43 geript wrote:On December 01 2013 05:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:On December 01 2013 05:25 geript wrote:
@Rayn. Graves is a bad ban choice. Scum banning cops will be irrelevant of whether Graves will be available. At best, Graves is a role which a low draft scum may pick up because town are highly unlikely to take it. That's not worth a ban. Banning a powerful KP ability to deny it from scum is better. We can pick the powerful KP-roles and use it as town. We can't use framer as town in any way. That's why it's a better ban. I disagree. Because it's far easier for scum to coordinate the draft phase (town plays as selfish individual while scum plays as a team), then scum is far more likely to end up with 2-3 early drafters to grab those early picks. This is easier said than done. I picked like 10/10 in the last PYP and ended up like 3rd pick or something. Coordinating to get picks is hard for mafia to do imo.
You were 6th. Palmar and Caller owned 2 scum in D1 by being ~15th both. rofl.
assuming you are talking about Broadwalk Empire.
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My point is that I was scum and I had a team and it was hard to coordinate picks. I don't know what you're mentioning Palmar and Caller for, but yes I'm referring to Boardwalk.
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I don't think banning any role is a must. Janitor should be obv ban. But Framer is a role that is very hard to use effectively as you generally must guess who is both the cop and his likely target. Banning the best KP power or powers after janitor, mainly ones that are non-specific, multi-use, and/or affect multiple players are better IMO as that type of combination is far better for scum than for town.
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Caught up on the thread now.
Given that Yorick and Graves are getting the discussion they should I will move onto janna. She is single handedly one of the best options for mafia to use in the game hands down. Anything that protects from vig shots as well as amplifying the damage someone does is absolutely scarey. Factor in this would be a perfect pairing to any scum kp user. It should be removed.
##vote Janna
Seriously this role in conjunction to any kp role is just insane.
Currently I see the bans we should be making is
One of Yorick/graves (prefer yorick given that a 1 shot janitor is bad but the theme of his character could also easily give him kp/ability to resurrect someone. Graves would likely have kp attached to his framing.
One of Janna / Urgot. Each one has the ability to amplify damage done. Either of these could be insane in the hands of mafia with the information we have currently been given, and the abilities both possess in LoL itself would be insanely powerful in mafia hands.
Then one of Evelyn and karthus. One is a semi dt immune vig and one is a multi target vig usable during the day / night. Karthus is likely going to have some death delay ability/more kp, and Evelyn has whatever shennigans she can do. Denying a group of these from mafia and dictating where the others end up falling in the draft order are likely the best approaches.
One thing I think people should remember given what the OP says is all the roles listed have some hidden abilities no one knows about. (it says the roles listed are roughly half of what they are capable of).
Given that It is imperative that we ban the correct roles now. Given most roles seem to follow the theme of the character and we are already aiming to ban yorick/graves we should be concentrating on roles now that are either things that amplify damage, or have a crazy ton of damage already.
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On December 01 2013 05:46 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 05:43 geript wrote:On December 01 2013 05:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:On December 01 2013 05:25 geript wrote:
@Rayn. Graves is a bad ban choice. Scum banning cops will be irrelevant of whether Graves will be available. At best, Graves is a role which a low draft scum may pick up because town are highly unlikely to take it. That's not worth a ban. Banning a powerful KP ability to deny it from scum is better. We can pick the powerful KP-roles and use it as town. We can't use framer as town in any way. That's why it's a better ban. I disagree. Because it's far easier for scum to coordinate the draft phase (town plays as selfish individual while scum plays as a team), then scum is far more likely to end up with 2-3 early drafters to grab those early picks. This is easier said than done. I picked like 10/10 in the last PYP and ended up like 3rd pick or something. Coordinating to get picks is hard for mafia to do imo.
My point was that all your team was spread out well to maximize odds of going high. You guys got a bit unlucky to pick many of the oft chosen numbers iirc but still got 2 picks in the top 5. We can expect 6 scum and 1-2 3P.
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EPT
