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On October 11 2013 07:26 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 07:22 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm pretty sure...he wasn't as overtly abrasive in the scum game I read and that's pretty much the only serious difference, but his conclusions match mine and I'm going with town.
Wave you should read austin and my interactions on the last 4 or 5 pages. Over the course of questioning him I had a really hard time getting him to commit to a scumread, and it didn't feel like it was because he wasn't sure or was paranoid or whatever. And he's got some interactions with s0L that are basically unexplainable from a town perspective. I saw some of that, but I think I have to go back and read it. Who was commenting on the fact that Austin shouldn't still be alive, you or VE? (Or was it Rayn?) 'Cause I remember that particular point being bullshit. I do remember Austin talking quite a bit without taking stances recently. Give me a few hours before any hardcore reading/analysis. I promise I'll get to any thing people want me to get to later on.
LOL I thought you were Vayne apparently.
FUck your names starting with the same letter and having similar length.
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Started looking through CC's filter already because I just decided I'm way too fucking tired and lazy to go out tonight.
On October 10 2013 02:19 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
If I had the time, I'd make cases. My problem lies with vayne/wos buddying up, I think one of them is scum that needs to have a friend in this time of need. When I made posts about CR being possible scum, WoS jumped all over me and told me they were bad. He also tried to discredit me the entire time when s0l was up for lynch. I'd lynch him first. Vayne I'm not so sure on. I haven't seen a game of his where he didn't troll as town, and this game he's active and stuff. It's weird.
Austin is probably town because of the way he handled the s0l lynch. Like, every other person and their mother just voted s0l and fucked off. Even CR, mafia. I'm more inclined to think mafia just sat with their vote on s0l rather than make huge posts considering if Koshi was mafia or not.
I don't even remember doing this.
Trying to discredit me and my wanting to lynch him I thinks.
Yup, found my conversation with him. Starts here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429897¤tpage=176#3506
Essentially I told him I found CR newbie and not bad enough as scum to direct the entire thread to the fact that he wanted to save his teammate. Turns out I was right. I wonder if his team knew Palmar was scum or not though.
I also commented on CC calling CR's posting 'consructed,' which is exactly how he got mislynched in Noire---essentially that is just how CR posts, scum or town it seems. (Though I imagine with all the bussing and going back on scumcalims, there must have been SOME construction going on in the lategame at the very least). The point there being CR did not scumslip, and the suspicion on him at the time was fine, but CR's REASONS weren't great. It look like this may have been the beginning of where CC decided to bus his team, and the bolded looks liek CC's attempt to garner towncred because of it. I suppose what I did here in this conversation could be interpreted as me 'jumping all over him' though I would consider it simple questioning. As far as me calling his reasons horseshit...they kind of are.
Gonna need to read more in-depth here.
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On October 11 2013 08:33 austinmcc wrote:
It's coo VE, as long as you're not factoring this other stuff in.
And I know my best bet is to find other dudes. Stuff like that solstice interaction isn't something I can go "yup, here's a super townie explanation." I can give you the HONEST explanation, and can you question my lack of followup postgame/in later games/when we cuddle.
I just...usually if I get suspected as mafia it's because it's early game and i'm semi-afk or useless on D1 or something. When it gets lategame and I'm under suspicion, I get all prickly and I want to fully understand exactly why people are on my nuts. If you don't care about my D4/me being alive/any of that stuff, it's all good. But you brought that up, and then WoS got the still alive thing as the major takeaway from your posts. So...either it was a bigger factor in your posting on me than you thought or WoS needs glasses. But yeah, npnp if you're throwing out all WIFOM-y stuff except you should definitely consider all the stuff I say.
I heard your cry for help with the bear. I kinda/sorta came to the rescue OR made it worse, definitely one of the two. You can trust me.
No it's just all I remember from reading the thread sporadically since last night.
Guess I probably should go through that whole conversation between you two though, huh?
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KK read through.
VE can you explain your point where you say Solstice and Cheese's interactions means they can't be town?
Because I honestly think Austin comes out looking ok from that argument between you.
The thing where he goes ham on Solstice and votes Palmar is interesting, but not the scummiest thing I've ever seen.
Can you look at what I just said about Cheese as well and let me know what you think?
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On October 11 2013 09:15 VisceraEyes wrote:
s0L would have had us believe that he had this like, super scumread on Cheese right? I mean based on the case he posted and the tone of SOME of his posts he might as well have a red check on the guy. But look at the rest of the posts - they seem to be APPEALING to Cheese, trying to convince him of his point of view. It's like he can't decide if he wants to stay consistent and PUSH Cheese or if he wants to be swayed and get Cheese on his side. This type of interaction I find mostly from scum-town interactions, but I admit that it could just as easily be fabricated between teammates. But taken with his attack on Cheese, and admittedly because of the whole QT vs. PM thing that happened, I think it's more likely that Cheese is town.
If Cheese is town, why did the call happen in the first place? Do you believe it was an attempt to get Koshi lynched? Because I believe someone mentioned (maybe Austin) earlier that it would have been much easier to try and get Cheese lynched based on calling him a liar and that the call never happened (with which I agree).
So why did Solstice not try to take the easier route and get Cheese lynched? Imo perhaps because they didn't want it to work that well. This way if they fail, Cheese gets da cred, and if they succeed, hey coplynch!
Regarding my post:
On October 11 2013 09:12 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 07:53 WaveofShadow wrote:Started looking through CC's filter already because I just decided I'm way too fucking tired and lazy to go out tonight. On October 10 2013 02:19 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
If I had the time, I'd make cases. My problem lies with vayne/wos buddying up, I think one of them is scum that needs to have a friend in this time of need. When I made posts about CR being possible scum, WoS jumped all over me and told me they were bad. He also tried to discredit me the entire time when s0l was up for lynch. I'd lynch him first. Vayne I'm not so sure on. I haven't seen a game of his where he didn't troll as town, and this game he's active and stuff. It's weird.
Austin is probably town because of the way he handled the s0l lynch. Like, every other person and their mother just voted s0l and fucked off. Even CR, mafia. I'm more inclined to think mafia just sat with their vote on s0l rather than make huge posts considering if Koshi was mafia or not. I don't even remember doing this. Trying to discredit me and my wanting to lynch him I thinks. Yup, found my conversation with him. Starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429897¤tpage=176#3506Essentially I told him I found CR newbie and not bad enough as scum to direct the entire thread to the fact that he wanted to save his teammate. Turns out I was right. I wonder if his team knew Palmar was scum or not though. I also commented on CC calling CR's posting 'consructed,' which is exactly how he got mislynched in Noire---essentially that is just how CR posts, scum or town it seems. (Though I imagine with all the bussing and going back on scumcalims, there must have been SOME construction going on in the lategame at the very least). The point there being CR did not scumslip, and the suspicion on him at the time was fine, but CR's REASONS weren't great. It look like this may have been the beginning of where CC decided to bus his team, and the bolded looks liek CC's attempt to garner towncred because of it. I suppose what I did here in this conversation could be interpreted as me 'jumping all over him' though I would consider it simple questioning. As far as me calling his reasons horseshit...they kind of are. Gonna need to read more in-depth here. I don't see how any of what Cheese said looks like he was trying to get town cred - I mean, he just OUTTED SCUM man, how much more town-cred can he possibly get? And while you WERE right about CR not "saving his teammate", at the time we didn't know whether CR was Baller or Banger...right? So I'm not really seeing how this makes Cheese scum to be frank. Was there some other post you were referring to? Because this one is mostly just you explaining the actions CC is calling you scummy for.
Because it's a Cheese bus.™
He didn't suspect either Solstice or CR before this point in the game; I believe it may have been this point exactly where the scumplans went down. Not to mention according to what Austin said earlier and I agree with having experienced his (Austin's) scumgames, I'm pretty sure Cheese is the only possible scumplayer in this game crazy enough to try a play like the one that went down.
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On October 11 2013 09:24 VisceraEyes wrote:I think the most damning part of the conversation between me and austin was how he approached answering me. Like, I was filtering s0Lstice and pointing out the things I saw, and austin interjected to throw in more speculation about the whole payphone thing. Which, fine, that's austin's way...but look at this post: Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 09:12 austinmcc wrote:On October 10 2013 09:03 VisceraEyes wrote:
What are you talking about austin? If they're different teams, then solstice convinces his team that Cheese is the other team. So we need a solstice/cr/x team where x can be convinced that cheese is mafia. Like, unless it's mega mega next level, it makes VA look decent because VA has been calling pandain the last MCB. So if the whole thing is REAL, then solstice would have to convince his scumteam, including VA, that cheese and not pandain was the last MCB. Cuz it appears that VA would be pushing to contact pandain. I think CR or WoS is the last MCB, but if I were scum I'd be on CR's team. So I'd be pushing for WoS and solstice would be pushing cheese, if I were mafia. In this scenario, cheese is town and it's not fake, so he's out. Which leaves WoS. Which I don't really like. So either solstice is already setting things in motion N3 OR VA is calling Pandain last MCB but solstice convinces him otherwise (or VA faking the read) OR Wos is mafia OR (for you guys) I am calling WoS mafia but solstice convinces me otherwise (or me faking the read) Can you tell who he thinks is scum in this post? Can you? Because I couldn't, and when I said as much he kept NOT telling me who he thought was scum. Like, I just find it hard to believe that a townAustin wouldn't have some SERIOUS suspicious at this point, and be trying to convince us of SOMETHING right? But he's not - he's just speculating and tossing around options and letting us decide what we think - thoroughly invested if we decide that we think he's scum, but otherwise pretty stoic with regard to who HE thinks is scum. I mean, being indecisive isn't a crime. You're right, that's not scummy. It's the WAY he's being indecisive that I don't like.
I do agree with this. It's just that I could see it coming from a town place as well, being often quite spammy/indecisive myself.....
Ugh but thinking about it you're right...when I am spammy and indecisive I'm more...I dunno....stream-of-consciousness? And I get a lot of shit wrong and say a lot of scummy looking things in the process.
You have good points regarding AUstin I just somehow feel less convinced. Probably due to Austin's solid as fuck play in this game.
Austin, put less effort into your scumgames please, so I can just call you town based on effort in this game alone.
Kthx.
VE let's talk some more about Austin.
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Likelihood is a big problem in this game because no matter which way you look at it, SOMEBODY did something fucking WEIRD.
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To be completely honest I'm not so sure that there is a whole lot that's objectively scummy about his play throughout the game as a whole.
Did he push the Palmar lynch differently from the way he pushed Solstice? That may be a place to look.
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And come to think of it, Austin has pushed Solstice for a lot of the game. Like he mentioned, pre-CC/Solstice what-the-fuckery.
If the plans only began to go down N3/D4/whatever I don't know if I see a reason for Austin to be pushing Solstice that early.
Is a full-game-long bus more likely?
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On October 11 2013 09:43 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 09:41 WaveofShadow wrote:
To be completely honest I'm not so sure that there is a whole lot that's objectively scummy about his play throughout the game as a whole.
Did he push the Palmar lynch differently from the way he pushed Solstice? That may be a place to look. Well yeah. That's what my post earlier stating how fucked we were if austin was scum was about. I'll go take a look at the Palmar push. From memory, it didn't seem heartfelt. It was a thinly veiled policy vote, actually iirc.
Yeah I'm in the middle of reading that.
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One thing that always bothered me.
VE did you think FT was super crazy ridiculously town?
I don't think anyone thought he was as town as Austin did.
Oh wait, maybe Pandain.
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Oh jesus his switch to Palmar looks SO BAD.
FUCK THIS GAME IS TOO HARD
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Alright let's talk.
Austin's switch to Palmar.
What is it motivated by is Austin is scum?
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On October 11 2013 09:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well, maybe drawing unintended heat to s0Lstice? At the time they had just had a back and forth, so he could feasibly (as we've discovered THIS phase) just say his mind was changed, so if/when s0L flips he looks good for the case and has an out for the switch?
I don't know what you mean by "motivated by", if Austin is his teammate, obviously he doesn't want to push to lynch him.
Ok I didn't think of that honestly, was only thinking of offensive reasons: ie is scum Austin out to lynch a town Palmar out of nowhere or did they think Palmar was scum.
Like...it just seems so ODD that he switches the vote so early with barely any reason or pretense, and then starts making cases and attacks post-hoc.
The thing is here, Austin is bang-on with his analysis of Palmar. So imo it doesn't look as much like a scum-on-town mislynch, so we either have to believe they knew he was scum here (which I believe people have argued for) or Austin is actually town.
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And with regards to the above---Cheese's push on CR LOOKS like a mislynch on 'town CR' waiting to happen. Since a CC/CR/Solstice scumteam means they knew CR was scum, the weak reasoning for the push looks worse.
Of course it could be a town CC pushing scum CR but it just doesn't look like that to me.
Like...I'm aware the above sounds really weird but it makes sense in my head.
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On October 11 2013 09:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
Wait why would he have to KNOW Palmar is scum? Why could he not have just READ Palmar as scum? If they're on opposing teams, why is that hard to believe?
Well that's what I mean.
It means the scumteam figured out he's scum or they read him as scum or whatever.
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On October 11 2013 09:59 VayneAuthority wrote:
in regards to the whole payphone thing this is where im at:
s0lstice = scum read on Mr.CC
CR = useless(sorry)
austin = adamant about pandain not being scum even when it was blatantly obvious, couldn't wait for noire to be over to say it.
so this together makes sense on paper in them thinking that cheesecake is the last scum and contacting him.
So you think Austin avoided calling Pandain scum on purpose to keep him alive even though he's been uncannily right about a lot of his reads this game? (read: because he's scum)
Oh wait I see what you're saying here.
Huh. That does make sense but you're only taking into account the actions from the perspective that ballers wanted to contact bangers, and I am in no way certain that that's what happened.
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On October 11 2013 10:01 austinmcc wrote:
(As an aside, yes, thought FT was towns mctowns, very strongly before he just effed off, and still mildly after that. Also had SP and oats as town. ymmv on whether you believe my reads are legit or just scum knowing they're town/other team, but I HAVE fought against the FT lynch, the SP lynch, and the oats read. If you think I was shittily putting pressure on solstice early, I was at least doing that instead of going along with a mislynch, which I could have easily done)
lol it's a shame you're such a huge suspect if you're town because you have been spot on all game.
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On October 11 2013 10:04 VayneAuthority wrote:
The thing is, those reads dont buy you any cred since all 3 of them were playing scummy as hell. FT was doing his martyr thing and kept saying he would start playing but never did. I don't see having a townread on him is a good thing even if you were right. Shaiopi didn't give a shit about the game either really and was subsequently lynched. Oats was playing almost directly to his scum meta. I don't understand why you had townreads on any of them.
Yeah pretty much this.
CC where the shit are you?
Can we lynch him for just fucking off and hoping we lynch Austin (despite having me as his primary scumread)?
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On October 11 2013 10:06 austinmcc wrote:
Well, it's in my posts. I give specific posts they made that I found townie, and did not believe came from a scum point of view. I don't care about meta in any of those cases, the reads are based on very specific posts the made.
The same way my reads on you and cc as scum (before pandain flipping) were based PRIMARILY, or at least you caught my eye primarily, because of single posts that I thought could ONLY come from the mafia point of view.
FT, SP, and oats each made these little comments or had a specific point or discussion that scum don't do. There are posts on both FT and SP, you can see my thought process.
See and all of my 'single-post-type' reads this game were wrong as hell.
Should totally lynch CC just for this reason because I thought he was town most of the game.
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EPT
