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On October 11 2013 07:38 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 11 2013 07:28 austinmcc wrote:On October 11 2013 07:22 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm pretty sure...he wasn't as overtly abrasive in the scum game I read and that's pretty much the only serious difference, but his conclusions match mine and I'm going with town.
Wave you should read austin and my interactions on the last 4 or 5 pages. Over the course of questioning him I had a really hard time getting him to commit to a scumread, and it didn't feel like it was because he wasn't sure or was paranoid or whatever. And he's got some interactions with s0L that are basically unexplainable from a town perspective. We don't seem to write/think the same way. This has happened like 3-4 times over the course of the game, earlier you thinking that I wasn't quite calling someone scum or wasn't quite doing x, when in my mind I was. I DON'T fully know. I AM unsure. Just...remember this one for future games. I was referencing the bit where you were giving me options instead of conclusions austin...and I still attest that until I dragged it out of you, you were NOT saying that Cheese was the most suspicious. You were giving me options and expecting me to be like "Oh okay, so THAT'S who austin thinks is scum" when I couldn't have possibly gleaned that information from the info you provided. There have been a few times this game where it's popped up. Not just yesterday. Yesterday WAS mainly thoughts/options, not conclusions. Things that I'm trying to make sense of. When I'm spammy, I'm not posting neatly packaged conclusions. And especially if it looks like people want to lynch me, my goal, as disorganized as it may be, is to just get all my thoughts into the thread. Maybe something in there is important, maybe not. Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 07:28 VisceraEyes wrote:
It was me - I brought that up in response to some WIFOM bullshit he gave me. Feeding him his own bullshit as it were. It's either all/mostly bullshit, or very little bullshit. If stuff like "he's alive" factors into your read, so should things like "his scumbuddy claimed cop, claimed scum, and austinmcc came out looking worse than anyone else in the game (apparently), why would solstice sac himself to make his buddy look BAD." You can call it all bullshit and that's okay, but then you've got to toss things that are both for AND against me, imo. I don't think it's all bullshit. I've explained my being alive as best I can, but I don't know why other people do what they do.
I never factored that into my read austin. That was strictly WIFOM in answer to your WIFOM.
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My read on you lies pretty much exclusively in the interactions that I pointed out between you and s0L. I find it very unlikely that a townAustin would have been appeased by s0Lstice's posting between when you last said you were suspicious of him and when you said you were appeased. All he had been doing was defend himself against accusations, which is fucking null. He wasn't scumhunting, he wasn't providing original thought, he was pretty much EXCLUSIVELY defending himself during that period, so the read seems contrived to me.
And like I said yesterday - I'm not trying to tunnel you. Your best shot of living (as far as I'm concerned) is convincing me that someone is a better lynch than you.
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(which, I'll admit, is an uphill task considering you say you're undecided still)
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Well, convincing Vayne I guess - I'm guessing his vote is a lot stickier than mine.
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Well there you go. Cheese HAS been extraordinarily useless.
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I know why WAS that a sticking point when Wave read that? God it was literally the least convincing part of that whole conversation and the part I valued the least. 
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Oh I see. Well yes, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter Wave.
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On October 11 2013 07:53 WaveofShadow wrote:Started looking through CC's filter already because I just decided I'm way too fucking tired and lazy to go out tonight. Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 02:19 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
If I had the time, I'd make cases. My problem lies with vayne/wos buddying up, I think one of them is scum that needs to have a friend in this time of need. When I made posts about CR being possible scum, WoS jumped all over me and told me they were bad. He also tried to discredit me the entire time when s0l was up for lynch. I'd lynch him first. Vayne I'm not so sure on. I haven't seen a game of his where he didn't troll as town, and this game he's active and stuff. It's weird.
Austin is probably town because of the way he handled the s0l lynch. Like, every other person and their mother just voted s0l and fucked off. Even CR, mafia. I'm more inclined to think mafia just sat with their vote on s0l rather than make huge posts considering if Koshi was mafia or not. I don't even remember doing this. Trying to discredit me and my wanting to lynch him I thinks. Yup, found my conversation with him. Starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429897¤tpage=176#3506Essentially I told him I found CR newbie and not bad enough as scum to direct the entire thread to the fact that he wanted to save his teammate. Turns out I was right. I wonder if his team knew Palmar was scum or not though. I also commented on CC calling CR's posting 'consructed,' which is exactly how he got mislynched in Noire---essentially that is just how CR posts, scum or town it seems. (Though I imagine with all the bussing and going back on scumcalims, there must have been SOME construction going on in the lategame at the very least). The point there being CR did not scumslip, and the suspicion on him at the time was fine, but CR's REASONS weren't great. It look like this may have been the beginning of where CC decided to bus his team, and the bolded looks liek CC's attempt to garner towncred because of it. I suppose what I did here in this conversation could be interpreted as me 'jumping all over him' though I would consider it simple questioning. As far as me calling his reasons horseshit...they kind of are. Gonna need to read more in-depth here.
I don't see how any of what Cheese said looks like he was trying to get town cred - I mean, he just OUTTED SCUM man, how much more town-cred can he possibly get?
And while you WERE right about CR not "saving his teammate", at the time we didn't know whether CR was Baller or Banger...right? So I'm not really seeing how this makes Cheese scum to be frank.
Was there some other post you were referring to? Because this one is mostly just you explaining the actions CC is calling you scummy for.
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s0L would have had us believe that he had this like, super scumread on Cheese right? I mean based on the case he posted and the tone of SOME of his posts he might as well have a red check on the guy. But look at the rest of the posts - they seem to be APPEALING to Cheese, trying to convince him of his point of view. It's like he can't decide if he wants to stay consistent and PUSH Cheese or if he wants to be swayed and get Cheese on his side. This type of interaction I find mostly from scum-town interactions, but I admit that it could just as easily be fabricated between teammates. But taken with his attack on Cheese, and admittedly because of the whole QT vs. PM thing that happened, I think it's more likely that Cheese is town.
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I think the most damning part of the conversation between me and austin was how he approached answering me. Like, I was filtering s0Lstice and pointing out the things I saw, and austin interjected to throw in more speculation about the whole payphone thing. Which, fine, that's austin's way...but look at this post:
On October 10 2013 09:12 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 09:03 VisceraEyes wrote:
What are you talking about austin? If they're different teams, then solstice convinces his team that Cheese is the other team. So we need a solstice/cr/x team where x can be convinced that cheese is mafia. Like, unless it's mega mega next level, it makes VA look decent because VA has been calling pandain the last MCB. So if the whole thing is REAL, then solstice would have to convince his scumteam, including VA, that cheese and not pandain was the last MCB. Cuz it appears that VA would be pushing to contact pandain. I think CR or WoS is the last MCB, but if I were scum I'd be on CR's team. So I'd be pushing for WoS and solstice would be pushing cheese, if I were mafia. In this scenario, cheese is town and it's not fake, so he's out. Which leaves WoS. Which I don't really like. So either solstice is already setting things in motion N3 OR VA is calling Pandain last MCB but solstice convinces him otherwise (or VA faking the read) OR Wos is mafia OR (for you guys) I am calling WoS mafia but solstice convinces me otherwise (or me faking the read)
Can you tell who he thinks is scum in this post? Can you? Because I couldn't, and when I said as much he kept NOT telling me who he thought was scum. Like, I just find it hard to believe that a townAustin wouldn't have some SERIOUS suspicious at this point, and be trying to convince us of SOMETHING right? But he's not - he's just speculating and tossing around options and letting us decide what we think - thoroughly invested if we decide that we think he's scum, but otherwise pretty stoic with regard to who HE thinks is scum.
I mean, being indecisive isn't a crime. You're right, that's not scummy. It's the WAY he's being indecisive that I don't like.
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Well, with s0L's attack on Cheese it's possible that they thought that maybe Cheese was the last Banger. Pandain was a complete shock to me. Vayne, not so much...but I was shocked personally.
Reaching out to the last Banger falls directly in line with the theme of "beeeg plays" that we're seeing here in this game. Like, if they got hold of the last Banger they're not in any danger really - sure he'll know who they are, but they'll in turn know who he is and it's 3v1. They're not putting themselves at much risk if he WAS the Banger...it just turned out that he wasn't.
Between
Scum reaching out to Cheese thinking he's the last Banger in an attempt to either coordinate/seek and destroy
vs
Scum concocting a plan to get Cheese super cred by outting a member of their own team in a game where that wouldn't mean much (at the time) because there are two scum teams
I think the first option is more likely.
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Well what do you think about his continually referring us back to his D4 play? I mean, isn't that right about where he'd want us to look if he were scum? Isn't that about where he'd be "putting his plan into motion"? I don't understand why he keeps telling us "My D4 play doesn't make any sense from a scum perspective" when we KNOW that scum are doing weird things and that if he were scum, he'd be fully aware of the weird things that are going on and can post accordingly.
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On October 11 2013 09:41 WaveofShadow wrote:
To be completely honest I'm not so sure that there is a whole lot that's objectively scummy about his play throughout the game as a whole.
Did he push the Palmar lynch differently from the way he pushed Solstice? That may be a place to look.
Well yeah. That's what my post earlier stating how fucked we were if austin was scum was about.
I'll go take a look at the Palmar push. From memory, it didn't seem heartfelt. It was a thinly veiled policy vote, actually iirc.
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On October 11 2013 09:43 WaveofShadow wrote:
And come to think of it, Austin has pushed Solstice for a lot of the game. Like he mentioned, pre-CC/Solstice what-the-fuckery.
If the plans only began to go down N3/D4/whatever I don't know if I see a reason for Austin to be pushing Solstice that early.
Is a full-game-long bus more likely?
Well that's what this post is about.
On October 10 2013 10:37 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 09:56 austinmcc wrote:On October 02 2013 09:52 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 02 2013 09:28 austinmcc wrote:
I WILL ACTIVATE THE SIRENS KNOCK IT OFF
VE
THE THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY ARGUING.
ARE YOU A BAD ENOUGH DUDE TO CHAT WITH AUSTINMCC INSTEAD OF ARGUING?
You want to lynch Hiro Protagonist. And Palmar?
I will gladly chat about either of those people, and listen, and maybe get down with them lynches, if you will talk to me about solstice and ... pandain.
Specifically, I will offer this --> Hiro Pro does not look good, but why do I lynch him NOW instead of trying to get him to comment on like...a bunch of stuff, lynching him if he doesn't or his responses are super scummy? Where did the bolded come from? Anyway, I'll discuss s0l with you. I'm willfully ignoring Pandain for the moment, but promise to take a look before dawn and I'll provide my read then. Anything specific you want to discuss about s0lstice? Mainly from I think misreading this post On October 02 2013 06:09 VisceraEyes wrote:
You didn't really push the rayn lynch through which I WOULD have expected from a town Palmar. But I'm not sure how much of that to attribute to you not having played in X amount of time, now in a game with several people who you're not sure will just blindly do what you say. Ultimately, that's not enough for me to change my read. Which I took as "you look scummy for x" "but maybe you're town because of the circumstances" "except that's not enough for me to change my read" Actually, I really hate your posts on Palmar because it doesn't seem like you can figure out WHAT you want to do with him, despite calling him town at a couple points you don't seem convinced. austin this post by you is really bad in hindsight. You were looking for people to talk with you about s0Lstice...and when I jump at the opportunity, you say NOTHING about s0Lstice and instead tell me how bad I look based on what I said about Palmar. Like, I get that it was in response to something I'd said, but I specifically asked you about s0Lstice and you literally said nothing about s0Lstice in spite of that being where your vote was at the time (iirc). On October 10 2013 10:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
Further, you go on to make some huge case against s0Lstice, which he apparently didn't debunk because you still thought he was mafia (apparently) and then all of a sudden you liked him when you decided to vote for Palmar.
Association-wise, I think you look the worst of anyone alive at the moment with regard to s0Lstice.
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On October 11 2013 09:44 WaveofShadow wrote:
One thing that always bothered me.
VE did you think FT was super crazy ridiculously town?
I don't think anyone thought he was as town as Austin did.
Oh wait, maybe Pandain.
No but Pandain had me convinced through sheer posting. No, not ridiculously town, but I was willing to give him a shot based on Pandain's posting.
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Well, maybe drawing unintended heat to s0Lstice? At the time they had just had a back and forth, so he could feasibly (as we've discovered THIS phase) just say his mind was changed, so if/when s0L flips he looks good for the case and has an out for the switch?
I don't know what you mean by "motivated by", if Austin is his teammate, obviously he doesn't want to push to lynch him.
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Wait why would he have to KNOW Palmar is scum? Why could he not have just READ Palmar as scum? If they're on opposing teams, why is that hard to believe?
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On October 11 2013 09:56 WaveofShadow wrote:
And with regards to the above---Cheese's push on CR LOOKS like a mislynch on 'town CR' waiting to happen. Since a CC/CR/Solstice scumteam means they knew CR was scum, the weak reasoning for the push looks worse.
Of course it could be a town CC pushing scum CR but it just doesn't look like that to me.
Like...I'm aware the above sounds really weird but it makes sense in my head.
Yeah give me a sec to try and parse out what you're saying. 
I think I get it but I want to make sure.
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Ehhhhh...I'ma have to go look at the Cheese>CR push to see if I agree with what you're saying. Honestly I don't remember it at all.
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I'm totally down with lynching Cheese first if he's got nothing to say. Austin is at least trying, which counts for something around here. Regardless of what Vayne says.
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EPT
