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What supports you is that you came out quickly when asked, and gave a reasoning for who you had RBed. What goes against you is that you knew a bit about C9++ and could have set up for it. But it was an odd timing for a scum move if so. Also 2 town RBs is 2.5% chance or something silly like that, which, viewed in a vacuum, doens't look good.
I also don't see what choice you would have now if you had fake claimed town RB as scum. You couldn't give evidence for an extra RB tonight, so you had to RB someone (JonnyLaw in that case) to make sure we see a scum RB in the game. Faking a blunder is the mafia move you would have to make, unless you had the guts to pretend RB heavenz or playerboy and be ready to argue when they say they don't have a roleblock notification. Also, if you had pulled that stunt.. it simply wouldn't have worked, becaue 2 RBs and a NK would have been clearly visible in the game. You could fake RB your team mate and real RB someone else, that's about it.
It looks so scummy I don't know how to believe you regardless of if I find you genuinely sorry
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And the NK was Koshi, RB was JonnyLaw. I can either believe we managed to set some serious confusion in heavenz/playerboy's mafia team form our meta hinting, or that you pulled the one move you had left as scum.
Why should we believe you?
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EBWOP: *from our meta hinting
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On October 01 2013 12:33 stormtemplar wrote:
Also, if heavenz is town and I'm mafia, why would I have claimed town RB only to make him more credible? There wasn't a point to it. What was my goal as mafia in this whole thing? What went wrong, what was the payoff for claiming? I don't see the motive. I convinced you lot I was town for maybe 20 hours in which you were powerless anyway. I wasn't really under suspicion, why not just fly under the radar?
That's why I'm not voting yet.
Two reasons you would do that:
1, Make us think there was a Godfather in the game.
2, Opportunistic town credit for the discussion, knowing the group would shrink to LYLO size.
Trying to figure out if these are things you would have sought in those circumstances
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On October 01 2013 12:53 stormtemplar wrote:
Also, just to be absolutely 100% postive
Do roleblocks still go through if the roleblocker in question dies that night?
I know what you guys said about that question, but I have to ask because on the off chance the answer is no I'm basically confirmed town RB, as there is no other way to account for the double roleblock at this point, except another town rb who didn't claim yet, and there is no chance that that is the case.
No, the entire hypothesis of 3 RBers in this game came from you and Bereft BBB (2 Town Roleblockers), heavenz as mafia RB being RBed in the night to explain the missing roleblock. Anyone else as mafia RB would have to also have RBed heavenz or Blurry, or that premise didn't even work.
2 RBers in the game, Bereft on Blurry and you on Heavenz, you being mafia RB, makes events more likely and more simple. The only reason we treated you as confirmed town was that you would prove it at the end of the night phase, now it'd be a pure gut check and whatever substance we have on heavenz and playerboy basically
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On October 01 2013 13:00 stormtemplar wrote:
Yay I'm a DT! I need to go to bed now, it's midnight, I'll answer any questions tomorrow, so if you're wondering where I went, the answer is bed. Gnight.
Good night
I guess we'll see how this turns out when heavenz and playerboy make their cases.
Balla feel free to toss in your opinion as well, maybe scrounge for a detail on playerboy or heavenz. So far it looks like you will be rather unfortunately (if you are town) tied to Stormtemplar's blunder.
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Dark Templar I'm guessing, referring to his name and how he'd disappear from thread.
Hoping for good imput now from the rest of the group, especially JonnyLaw.
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Good luck (whether you are scum or not)
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I said from the start, 1-Shot Cop: only one check. Otherwise I would've played a lot more conservatively.
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Could be a Doc still around and then a GF in the mafia team. Or even technically, if Stormtemplar is RB, doc and a Serial Killer who hasn't been using kills. Unlikely at this point.
I do doubt that Stormtemplar is town--he even said he would "lose for his team" either way rather than town at one point, and a lot of his emotional posting can come from feeling he's letting a scum buddy down. He also said specifically, in his claim: "town roleblocker", not just "roleblocker". One of the only reasons someone would think to mention "town" in that context, I imagine, is if they are scum (he could be the type that likes to capitalize his letters and write Town Roleblocker but he didn't).
But we have a lot of day left and should be extremely thorough since this is LYLO and we need to catch both of the scum.
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Trouble is you had that sudden "onlywonderboy is certainly mafia" post, heavenz.
And the one where you didn't seem to care about winning for town, anymore.
You also asked, after saying you were roleblocked, in which order night actions were processed. As vanilla town I don't see your motivation to do that. Potentially soft-claiming a role is mainly only a good idea if you're mafia, and otherwise it could be interpeted as a scum RB slip.
And you said "advantage of clearing playerboy" which you EBWOPed to "possibility", after suddenly town reading him when you had been at least somewhat suspicious before.
So many things tell me Stormtemplar is scum, and you are, and playerboy. Balla strikes me, more than most people who have been in this game, as making newbie mistakes but doing few outright scummy mistakes. We have only 2 days of voting to go off of and he refused to follow the three most active players in the game on the vote last night, so I can't say he's a clearly sheeping scum either. If you are town, heavenz, I can understand if it looks like a relatively easy game from your perspective; it's not quite that clear cut from my perspective.
I don't want anyone breezing through LYLO. Fight for the town, guys
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On October 01 2013 17:47 playerboy345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 07:24 onlywonderboy wrote:
Well, it was fun while it lasted, sorry townies, I tried! Learned a lot regardless, this game is hard lol. Might look to play in more. Sorry onlywonderboy, I really thought you were scum :/ I guess your death is kinda my fault T_T So I think this game is basically Zaragon's to win or lose, right? Also I noticed that Koshi probably didn't suspect me as scum as he never really mentioned me in any of his posts. I'll try to be more useful today as I probably have more time to spend today compared to yesterday.
Town's game. If there are any cases to be made that haven't been yet, we need to find them.
And I need some sleep
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On October 01 2013 20:47 heavenz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 15:00 Zaragon wrote:
Trouble is you had that sudden "onlywonderboy is certainly mafia" post, heavenz.
And the one where you didn't seem to care about winning for town, anymore.
You also asked, after saying you were roleblocked, in which order night actions were processed. As vanilla town I don't see your motivation to do that. Potentially soft-claiming a role is mainly only a good idea if you're mafia, and otherwise it could be interpeted as a scum RB slip.
And you said "advantage of clearing playerboy" which you EBWOPed to "possibility", after suddenly town reading him when you had been at least somewhat suspicious before.
So many things tell me Stormtemplar is scum, and you are, and playerboy. Balla strikes me, more than most people who have been in this game, as making newbie mistakes but doing few outright scummy mistakes. We have only 2 days of voting to go off of and he refused to follow the three most active players in the game on the vote last night, so I can't say he's a clearly sheeping scum either. If you are town, heavenz, I can understand if it looks like a relatively easy game from your perspective; it's not quite that clear cut from my perspective.
I don't want anyone breezing through LYLO. Fight for the town, guys
yeah I know, that was badly played, but I don't see how that makes me scum. I read him as town, but I was dissapointed by his progession, he only cared about himself, that annoyed me, that's why I just wanted to push him, but I should have realized that I got opposition from the scum, so I should have stopped before the end,.. I was just hoping he would really be scum. Mistakes were made. Btw, you keep looking at mistakes, that's not how you should play it. Look at the motivation behind the actions. 1) I wasn't the town leader 2) I wasn't convincing 3) It was really dumb, and I didn't care if you would have lynched me afterwards, coz the game with the ton of afk'ers felt like a waste of time so basicly it was really bad and risky. If I was mafia, I would feel beforehand if more players thought that he would be a good lynch, not 180 and go for it no matter what, and that on an unimportant target. I didn't cover myself in glory that day, but I made up for it. Either way if you consider Stormtemplar mafia you can't think that I am mafia too. Also this is my 2nd game, I claimed I was roleblocked because I was roleblocked (even stormtemplar attest it), I claim vt, coz I am, I never claimed anything else. I want to ask you a question. Consider my claim to be true for a second. Now make up reasonable mafia teams.
If you and playerboy were mafia, you needed a third target because both of you were close to getting lynched (for fairly good reasons). So it's not about mistakes. If the two of you were scum and had set up the beginning of the day as you did, how would you move heat off playerboy? JonnyLaw made a strong case on playerboy as well (I have to admit, my cop check on him did strengthen it in my mind as well) at an ill timed moment for a heavenz/playerboy scum team. And you drew suspicion with your posting, which was careless as either scum or town.
Yes, I would have expected you to be more careful, and yes I would have expected you as mafia to look more carefully at who to NK last night
On October 02 2013 04:05 stormtemplar wrote:
I would point out that that is not a very townie post heavenz. You've been operating with certainty all game long, and town is never certain. Even "Confirmed" townies usually have some element of doubt, it's just that it's much more likely that they are town. You very rarely 100% know everything in mafia as town, and you've been playing like you do, which is very much a mafia trait.
Also, the DT think was a reference to my profile picture, I hit 2K posts and became a DT. The losing the game from either side thing was a continuation of my propensity for ill-timed humor, but I was pointing out that from any point of view and in all possible situations my play was a monumental screw up.
I'm still honestly confused as to what this whole debacle gained me if I'm mafia. Considering I was mostly not under suspicion and balla REALLY wasn't, if we're the scum team then this is the best possible senario, and it's a crappy and easy to predict one. I would have been much better off just staying silent. There's no motive to behave as I did for scum, while there is one for a townie.
The problem is, we have to assume you made a mistake either way, and comparing and WIFOMing which one you would make isn't helping me personally see if you're scum.
Honestly, from the circumstances, I would be almost sure it was Stormtemplar now (the odds of BBB, 2 town RB, combined with the odds of hitting the mafia RB the first night and forgetting to RB second night). Except, playerboy is coming in and showing he hasn't even read the game since last lynch. Whether that's genuine or not, it makes it plausible for a playerboy scum team to not have thought the NK through.
I need to look back more at motivations at different points in the game.
JonnyLaw and playerboy are right about Koshi, by the way. And it's an odd kill for playerboy/heavenz. He showed more suspicions about Balla and Stormtemplar than I; I was working completely under the assumption that Stormtemplar would confirm town RB after the night.
Also, Bereft was more skeptical of Balla early than most, and mildly of Stormtemplar if I remember right.
I'm quite confused about this game myself since several things make little sense.
Hopefully more information will come out during the remaining time.
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On October 02 2013 06:24 heavenz wrote:
I know, I played carelessly, I thought I am just a VT, if I die, what ever. But the situation arose and many modkills, and we're suddenly at the end of the game.
If you belive that Stormtemplar is mafia, it's stormtemplar and balla24, I just ask you to read my longer post again.
You need to understand the this is not a rating of who is the most suspicious, we just have to kill the mafia. Read the last game, umasi was mafia, he wasn't suspicious at all.
Playerboy mentioned that he played with Umasi in aonther game where Umasi was scum as well, you will not think he is mafia because he is more town than all of town.
I don't have any connection or responsibilty for playerboy, on day1 I assumed that the mafia was playerboy & stormtemplar. I made a case with JonnyLaw on Stormtemplar and I made a case with Playerboy on Onlywunderboy.
I think that Stormtemplar is scum, and when stormtemplar is scum he is scum with balla24.
You tied playerboy rather loosely to stormtemplar day 1. No reason you couldn't have bussed him and made out as if he was cleared when stormtemplar flipped town. If you are scum, I would expect some early bussing, to be honest.
On October 02 2013 08:53 Balla24 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 06:24 heavenz wrote:
You need to understand the this is not a rating of who is the most suspicious, we just have to kill the mafia. Read the last game, umasi was mafia, he wasn't suspicious at all.
. Dude what does this even mean??????????? This entire game is about lynching the suspicious people. What else is there to go on besides suspicion? Why would you lynch someone if they aren't suspicious? The whole goal of town is to get the scum to become suspicious so that they can find out and then kill them before they kill town. This is such a shit show. It seems to me like everybody is just bussing everybody because fuck everybody else. Please, zaragon, jonnylaw ASK MORE QUESTIONS. We're not going to get anywhere with you guys re-iterating the facts that we all know. You need to get people to share their thoughts on different subjects so that the suspects can possibly slip in their reasoning. This is one thing that Heavenz (yes, i'm going to say it again) has yet to provide. ANY reasoning for ANYTHING. Force it out! Of all of us, not just Heavenz.
It's LYLO after 2 days and scum's job is to not appear suspicious throughout the game. It's not as easy as who looks most suspicious.
I do have another question to ask. Balla, why have you read stormtemplar town all game and showed minimal suspicion about him? After the whole roleblock conversation yesterday, can you really buy that he simply forgot to use his? He was active in the roleblocking discussion, obviously.
Other than that, I need to see playerboy's take on what he missed of the game and his reads now.
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Why do you think heavenz is less suspicious than playerboy? And you realize, if stormtemplar is lying he is confirmed scum roleblocker; if he isn't lying, heavenz is confirmed scum roleblocker. Why would we vote playerboy? playerboy is only relevant to see if he's part of a scum team with either of those people
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playerboy is scummy, yes. And he has responded scummiest of all to these events, so far, barely even posting and giving the appearance he hasn't read what was going on. But he's not relevant for a lynch since either heavenz or stormtemplar is mafia roleblocker.
playerboy really needs to give his view and his scum cases, but I don't see how we can vote him tonight no matter how scummy he is. If heavenz is the roleblocker (likeliest teammate with playerboy) we kill him, roleblock playerboy and win without another LYLO. So if you want to lynch playerboy tonight rather than stormtemplar or heavenz, I'd really like to see a good case for it, because I can't see the logic there.
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On October 02 2013 13:00 Balla24 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 09:50 Zaragon wrote:On October 02 2013 08:53 Balla24 wrote:
Dude what does this even mean??????????? This entire game is about lynching the suspicious people. What else is there to go on besides suspicion? Why would you lynch someone if they aren't suspicious? The whole goal of town is to get the scum to become suspicious so that they can find out and then kill them before they kill town.
This is such a shit show. It seems to me like everybody is just bussing everybody because fuck everybody else. Please, zaragon, jonnylaw ASK MORE QUESTIONS. We're not going to get anywhere with you guys re-iterating the facts that we all know. You need to get people to share their thoughts on different subjects so that the suspects can possibly slip in their reasoning. This is one thing that Heavenz (yes, i'm going to say it again) has yet to provide. ANY reasoning for ANYTHING. Force it out! Of all of us, not just Heavenz. It's LYLO after 2 days and scum's job is to not appear suspicious throughout the game. It's not as easy as who looks most suspicious. I do have another question to ask. Balla, why have you read stormtemplar town all game and showed minimal suspicion about him? After the whole roleblock conversation yesterday, can you really buy that he simply forgot to use his? He was active in the roleblocking discussion, obviously. Other than that, I need to see playerboy's take on what he missed of the game and his reads now. No, it's not that easy. But the whole process of this game is to make it so scum players become suspicious enough that you can lynch them. If a player isn't ever suspicious you will never catch them. Just because their actions aren't suspicious by themselves doesn't mean that together with something else they aren't suspicious either. At the end of the day, it will be who looks most suspicious, regardless of whether or not they are most suspicious now, otherwise why would you vote for them. Anyways, I don't even know why we're talking about this. It's silly. This is the kind of random rants we can't really afford right now. I shouldn't have brought it up. To me, the case on stormtemplar was very very weak on day 1 and day 2 the attention was somewhere else. There wasn't much substance behind it and I couldn't find anything particularly scummy. Today however things are totally different. I can't believe him. Just can't. Koshi calculated the chance of a setup like this being 2.5% or something like that. That's so low. I can't really believe him straight up based on that possibility, but on the other hand the situation where he is ACTUALLY town roleblocker and he ACTUALLY forgot to roleblock just makes more sense to me with the way the game has flowed and the way he has played in general. The timing all makes sense. Everything else makes sense. The situation where he is scum roleblocker seems so contrived and unreasonable. It doesn't make sense. Why would stormtemplar roleblock Jonnylaw in this case and then why would he claim he forgot to roleblock? I don't know. I'm a in a weird situation here where BOTH cases are incredibly incredibly low probability, in one case it's due to the way the game is setup and in the other case it's just because of how it all fits together.
I agree with that to some extent.
However, the roleblock on JonnyLaw would only be for appearances, to show a scum RB was still in the game. On the surface, it looks like a solution for a scum stormtemplar after the mistake of claiming town RB. Thing is, as far as I know, stormtemplar could be scum RB and have had no idea that if he claimed town RB it meant a scum RB had to exist as well. He might have scrambled to look at C9++ when it was first mentioned, realized his mistake, and come up with a solution. There are so many possibilities as to how his mistake (whichever it was) happened.
If I went by the flow of the game and how and what people have said, playerboy/heavenz would be my scum team of choice. Just, a town RB Stormtemplar not even attempting to block the NK, especially if he expected to die, it's hard to swallow.
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On October 02 2013 13:29 Balla24 wrote:
I totally understand. It's literally the worst way to lose. I'm not sure the roleblock on jonnylaw is the best move in his position, or even a good move at all. What about just roleblocking Heavenz again? He would have kept the possibility of Heavenz being scum RB and he could have covered it with the fact that he was trying to kill 2 birds with one stone (possibly block a kill and also a roleblock) and also trying to clear his name as town RB. Obviously this wouldn't be the brightest town RB play but it would certainly (IMO, and no offense stormtemplar) match his play. Again though, I'm just trying to think logically through this and understand what possibilities there are.
Can I ask you a question you asked me previously though? If he is town RB and did forget the roleblock, do you think it fits with his play the rest of the game? You've probably already thought about it, but putting thoughts out there sometimes catches things you don't normally. Just interested to see
It's not a good move, that's the problem, nothing around it is a good move (unless I suppose he's scum and manages to confuse us somehow). If he's scum and had fake claimed, he should've claimed he RBed heavenz or playerboy and that they out-metaed him by how they performed the NK.
As for whether forgetting to RB fits his play to my eyes, yes, it fits my town read on him. But that same day, before he stopped posting, he was discussing the RB situation with us and about RB being able to stop NK... After that, it doesn't fit with my read on him. He was clearly emotional about the game in his defense speech earlier, so just deciding that he was dying and it didn't matter if he even tried to stop the NK makes no sense.
Maybe, maybe I can believe it. The question is just if we want to gamble that much on basically a personality read on stormtemplar. Actually, does he have any previous games anywhere?
By the way, my main priority is still to see a case of some kind from playerboy before I decide on my vote.
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Ok I'm going to try to wildly speculate on scum teams and QT conversations.
Balla and stormtemplar coming up to the NK. What does this QT actually look like? Oh crap, mistake claiming town roleblocker, what now? Someone being AFK most of the night and a haphazard decision on how to solve it? Maybe suspicion will still stick to heavenz or playerboy?
Alternatively, heavenz/playerboy. stormtemplar has claimed RB. If they kill him, they pretty much point an arrow at themselves as mafia. If they RB him and kill someone else (me or Koshi presumably) they know they can argue with stormtemplar, he will come across as quite genuine at getting RBed however. So they flip a coin, try to RB someone else (potential Doc perhaps) and hope stormtemplar hits heavenz instead of playerboy? 50/50% lose the game just to make stormtemplar appear less genuine when he argues for himself?
You know, something doesn't make sense in either of those conversations, and I almost think one of the unlikeliest scum teams that we've dismissed out of pure probability could be it. JonnyLaw's odd unwillingness to lynch heavenz over playerboy sets off a red flag in my head; I need to go back and check why I dismissed them. If heavenz expected himself or playerboy to get roleblocked, signaling JonnyLaw (as scum mate) to say he was roleblocked would be the perfect scum play. Discredits stormtemplar after the night, ostensibly clears JonnyLaw and possibly heavenz as well depending on stormtemplar's target. And things would make a lot more sense.
Checking this theory as well.
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On October 02 2013 17:08 playerboy345 wrote:
By the way what are the chances of there being a serial killer in our current scenario? I'm really confused and I don't really get this C9++ stuff.
It's almost impossible at this point.
If I remember the math right it would mean that stormtemplar is a real town roleblocker, we have a doctor, GF and an SK--that everyone still in the game is a role.
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EPT
