EPTOn January 04 2014 04:54 geript wrote:
Incorrect sir. Thanks for playing.
Incorrect sir. Thanks for playing.
hmm my mistake then... what is your issue then? I thought that your problem was I didn't ask for bans?
TL Mafia Ban List 2.0 - Page 23
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Message GMarshal if you request a ban please ^_^ Also when the game you're sitting out is over! ~GMarshal | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6789 Posts
hmm my mistake then... what is your issue then? I thought that your problem was I didn't ask for bans? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On January 04 2014 08:21 Kenpachi wrote: I never knew replacements were considered inactivity modkills. whatever Did you go inactive so that I was forced to replace you? (I honestly don't remember so fill me in.) Yes, technically that's not a modkill only because we happened to have someone on standby so we didn't have to flip the slot, but the principle stands imo. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9389 Posts
On January 03 2014 07:52 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I pop in this thread from time to time, seeing it bumped to the top on the sidebar interests me. This thread does make me sad, though. Free hugs for everyone. /hug But ser (sic)...CC is only pro-town when scum.. HONEST LYNCH WITH FIRE ! | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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Mig
United States4714 Posts
Darth punk not being banned for quitting a game - Penalties are left up to the hosts to ask for. TL mafia has been moderated like this for a long time. Whether you or anyone else thinks dp should have been banned for this is irrelevant because the host didn't feel he should. Even if this were not the case we wouldn't be banning people now for games that happened months ago. Kush/Coag drama - I don't see any evidence that kush/coag tried to cheat the game. It isn't good that they were talking post death but Coag's explanation seems much more plausible than they were actually trying to cheat and influence the game. In a small community where many people know each other, play together on other sites, have each other on skype etc, occasionally things like this will happen. As long as there isn't evidence that kush was trying to influence the game, I don't think this is enough to warrant banning people. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On January 05 2014 01:59 Mig wrote: Darth punk not being banned for quitting a game - Penalties are left up to the hosts to ask for. TL mafia has been moderated like this for a long time. Whether you or anyone else thinks dp should have been banned for this is irrelevant because the host didn't feel he should. Even if this were not the case we wouldn't be banning people now for games that happened months ago.[/QUOTE] Re: Bans... My point is, was and has been that I, far and away, got the short end of the stick. For as long as host are the only people allowed to request bans, we will continue to see widely different enforcement of perceived rules. This is why I suggested that hosts be required to post all potentially punishable actions (along with recommendations/explanations) so say to make enforcement of rules more fair for all parties. Either way this matter is done. It's clear everyone else is fine with this type of biased treatment continuing and are happy with me continuing to bitch at you. [B]On January 05 2014 02:51 Hopeless1der wrote: I have a followup query regarding the kush/coag thing. Why did geript believe GMarshall was sweeping this under the rug so to speak? As much as this is a place to raise concerns about moderation and discipline, it reads as very petty and malicious actions from geript, at least from my point of view with limited information. Is there any validity to the accusations against GM or did he simply ask Mig to step in so geript couldnt go conspiracy theory on him? Iirc (on phone can't check easily) I sent him a text copy of the thread. He responded saying it was unreadable and understandably so. I think a few hours later (prior to his I'll be gone 2 days post) I sent him the copies I posted. He never responded to that. On the morning of the 31st I sent him a pm asking if he saw it, was looking into it, etc. again I hadn't heard back and when I sent them to iGrok he seemed to have a similar response to them as me. I have no clue if he just intended to follow up on it after the first, if he just was chilling away from TL, if he disagreed with my view or if he was part of the coverup. So I posted them so they would have to be dealt with. I'm not happy about the decision and I think it's the wrong one. It flat out promotes cheating because it requires rock solid irrefutable proof be provided. That's pretty much never going to happen ever. IIRC this is the second time a mod has posted something similar (talking w/ dead players is frowned upon but not given more than a 'tut tut') and this will flat out allow cheating. The last time I can recall a similar situation was brought up was In LIX with Toadestern and someone (hopeless1der maybe) and was far more drastically hammered. I don't think this sets a good standard at all, but it's not going to change at this point and the matter is dead. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
People who are in both places and saw no wrong-doing: Alakaslam, Me, Oats, Blazinghand, DarthPunk, Promethelax, also including Kush and Coag. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On January 05 2014 03:49 geript wrote: ... I'm not happy about the decision and I think it's the wrong one. It flat out promotes cheating because it requires rock solid irrefutable proof be provided. That's pretty much never going to happen ever. IIRC this is the second time a mod has posted something similar (talking w/ dead players is frowned upon but not given more than a 'tut tut') and this will flat out allow cheating. I don't anyone is requiring "irrefutable" proof. All that Mig is saying here is that no actions will be taken in a situation where a more-plausible explanation of non-cheating exists. We're a small enough community to where rules "justice" and "punishment" do not have to be so blind. You can't go around waiving the ban-stick at everyone who you suspect of cheating. There has to be some standard of proof met, and it hasn't been met in this case. IMO, it's worse to ban someone who doesn't deserve it than to let someone cheating off without a ban. You seem to be concerned about the precedent of this decision, but I think it's better than the alternative. Giving out bans in a situation where a clear majority of people believe that cheating did not happen not only alienates a good portion of the community, but creates a precedent for allowing out-of-context remarks off of forum to get you banned. It facilitates using moderation as a weapon in personal vendettas, which would be horrible for the forum. The last time I can recall a similar situation was brought up was In LIX with Toadestern and someone (hopeless1der maybe) and was far more drastically hammered. I don't think this sets a good standard at all, but it's not going to change at this point and the matter is dead. I think that situation was very different. There was very clear proof of conversation (in a dota2 game?) that gave away alignment information and had a game-altering effect. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
Re: Bans... My point is, was and has been that I, far and away, got the short end of the stick. For as long as host are the only people allowed to request bans, we will continue to see widely different enforcement of perceived rules. This is why I suggested that hosts be required to post all potentially punishable actions (along with recommendations/explanations) so say to make enforcement of rules more fair for all parties. Either way this matter is done. It's clear everyone else is fine with this type of biased treatment continuing and are happy with me continuing to bitch at you. Iirc (on phone can't check easily) I sent him a text copy of the thread. He responded saying it was unreadable and understandably so. I think a few hours later (prior to his I'll be gone 2 days post) I sent him the copies I posted. He never responded to that. On the morning of the 31st I sent him a pm asking if he saw it, was looking into it, etc. again I hadn't heard back and when I sent them to iGrok he seemed to have a similar response to them as me. I have no clue if he just intended to follow up on it after the first, if he just was chilling away from TL, if he disagreed with my view or if he was part of the coverup. So I posted them so they would have to be dealt with. I'm not happy about the decision and I think it's the wrong one. It flat out promotes cheating because it requires rock solid irrefutable proof be provided. That's pretty much never going to happen ever. IIRC this is the second time a mod has posted something similar (talking w/ dead players is frowned upon but not given more than a 'tut tut') and this will flat out allow cheating. The last time I can recall a similar situation was brought up was In LIX with Toadestern and someone (hopeless1der maybe) and was far more drastically hammered. I don't think this sets a good standard at all, but it's not going to change at this point and the matter is dead. That discrepancy you see with toad's punishment and the others is because toad shared game breaking information. He said "the idiots shot VE, I can't believe it" or something to that effect to another unflipped player (hassy, i think it was)confirming himself as town in that to to that unflipped player. Friends talking about a game where one of them is still alive is totally acceptable as long as no game breaking information is shared, it is a risky thing to do as one might accidentally let something slip but as long as that does not happen the rules have not been broken. We require rock solid proof of cheating because cheating is a huge allegation. Tis is a small community which has held together for many years. Accusing someone of cheating should not be something done in haste, it should, and does, require some form of proof. Many, if not all, of us have sent PMs while dead to players who are alive or vide versa. This is a regular occurrence on this forum and it has never been considered cheating on its own. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
It facilitates using moderation as a weapon in personal vendettas, which would be horrible for the forum. DP and others already turned this forum as a weapon. No one seemed to object to object to that. Hell, BH is the only person who's even acknowledged the points I've made about a vast double standard that's been enforced as of late. No ones noted that I've made numerous positive suggestions I've made to correct some of the problems the ban list has in how it's setup. Rather everyone's bitched about me creating more drama. So keep on turning a blind eye and live in your fantasy TL world Hapa. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
Look, you can say what you want about some people in this forum, but there are not any cheaters here. I have confidence in that. | ||
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
On January 05 2014 05:07 geript wrote: DP and others already turned this forum as a weapon. No one seemed to object to object to that. Hell, BH is the only person who's even acknowledged the points I've made about a vast double standard that's been enforced as of late. No ones noted that I've made numerous positive suggestions I've made to correct some of the problems the ban list has in how it's setup. Rather everyone's bitched about me creating more drama. So keep on turning a blind eye and live in your fantasy TL world Hapa. your positive points are undermined by your efforts to cause a shitstorm. You didnt post things about coag/kush for a reasonable discussion, you wanted blood and it was obvious you didnt give a shit who you pissed off in order to get it. That type of mentality causes more problems than it solves. If you truly care about the way the forum is run, take it into a new thread that you want to discuss how improvements can be made. You don't run it. Those who think they run it don't run it. The players decide what they are willing to put up with, THEY ultimately run things. If you continue running as lone wolf you'll continue to be told your just causing trouble and you are up to no good. E:kush correcting typos for me. ty <3 | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6789 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9389 Posts
On January 05 2014 14:53 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Perhaps it would be wise for this forum to take a month or so off of mafia. *sigh* No thanks. I get this convo is all ban related, but it should go into a dedicated thread. This thread 2.0 is meant to be focused on *current* bans. On that note: If Geript is trying to enforce punishment on past unpunished infractions - I say, let bygones be bygones. Banlist 2.0 was meant to be a clean slate after all. Regardless if you are DP, Coagulation or <insert other>. *HOWEVER* I give merit to Geript regarding the transparent double standards on this forum. It wouldnt be a big issue if people weren't pretending that it doesn't exist -- but it does. When the community thread popped up after BttB, my main concern was to ensure that punishment is dealt fairly to all parties regardless of reputation/long-standing within the community. I still believe in this notion and I think its an important message to broadcast. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
While geript adds revenge fantasies and grudges to it the central point he is making about fairness the point itself is not totally unwarranted. I don't believe this is the proper place for that discussion, though I don't know what the proper place is, but I do believe that the discussion is valuable. | ||
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