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Basterd Mini Mafia - Page 20

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43270 Posts
June 30 2013 22:35 GMT
#381
Oats i don't want to talk with you until you stop acting like a complete idiot.
table for two on a tv tray
Stutters695
Profile Joined July 2012
2610 Posts
June 30 2013 22:36 GMT
#382
##vote: Mkfuba07
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
June 30 2013 22:37 GMT
#383
On July 01 2013 07:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Oats i don't want to talk with you until you stop acting like a complete idiot.

answer that question please.
No gg, No skill.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22106 Posts
June 30 2013 22:39 GMT
#384
On July 01 2013 07:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Yeah, i had not reread what Stutters had said after that, and when i started catching up i was posting when i read people's filters. That's also when i realized what Oats posted about him, this post:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2013 14:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
So you are saying as scum stutters wants to throw suspicion on Rayn for something that scum dont know. I dont think this is really all the believable

The rest i said about Stutters is why he is only slightly leaning on town and not more.


Funny. What oats posted was the exact opposite of what you claimed.

You said:
rofl what's this? An accusation? Now if i was mafia how would i know how many millers there are in the game?


and this:

So you are saying as scum stutters wants to throw suspicion on Rayn for something that scum dont know. I dont think this is really all the believable


swayed your opinion? Cause Oats just said the exact opposite of what you said?Without any further clarification?


Then, you got ultimately persuaded by these posts between your posts in question?

You went from scum to I don't know to town, with these posts between the "I don't know" and the "town":

On July 01 2013 02:46 Stutters695 wrote:
This is why I thought he was town.

The miller stuff is eh (a lot more damming now with Vivax's post however). Like it isn't an unreasonable assumption and his reaction to my "scummiest post in the thread" was almost exactly how I'd react. I'd expect scum to be much more concerned with justifying their stance immediately rather than just laugh it off and not elaborate until pressure is on them. I reacted almost identically to an accusation from vivax in roulette that I felt was ridiculous.

In addition to that, he's one of the most active players.

I can pull specifics if you want but that's the rundown.


On July 01 2013 03:47 Stutters695 wrote:
You're misunderstanding. I'm leaning scum on him now, that was explaining why I thought he was town when I woke up this morning and did a quick skim.

Although I do think accepting a miller claim isn't unreasonable. It essentially is just having someone say "hey, don't check me because you'll waste your power (pre-parity announcement) and cause a mislynch."

It doesn't in any way confirm Marv, but ensures he is judged on the basis of his actual play. That he's so sure Marv is town is worrisome but I can see where he is coming from to a certain extent. I also don't like how many people are slipping by saying absolutely nothing. Even if we lynch him we should hear his reads and force these hardcore lurkers to post something.


Explain what you found so townie about these posts please.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 30 2013 22:41 GMT
#385
On July 01 2013 07:29 Vivax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2013 07:14 Lazermonkey wrote:
On July 01 2013 06:22 Vivax wrote:
On July 01 2013 04:31 Lazermonkey wrote:
With above facts, it would be very easy to draw the conclusion that marv is not scum beuse if he were, there is a high chance he could get counter claimed. When I then looked at the other game, I found out that marv did in fact claim miller as scum in a game where 2 millers were almost impossible but 1 was quite likely, just like this game. Thats why I changed my mind.

But even ignoring that, its BS to say that someone is scum just because they are convinced that someone is town.


Counter claim chance in the other game was 60 or 40 %, don't remember which one, I think that's fairly high and also applies to this game.

What matters though is that you said marv would be likely town cause two millers are unlikely, dismissing the option that there could be no miller, like Rayn did.

It's not bullshit to assume someone is scum cause they are convinced someone is town.
If someone gives a town read without proper reasons then it's indicative that they knew their alignment beforehand.

You and Rayn clearly didn't look at this matter from the perspective of someone who sees a miller claim and thinks "Oh ok he did it in some other game, I'll judge him by his play then".

You say "Oh he claimed he must be town then" (You not as much as Rayn, but you said to Rayn that you agree on marv being probably town and then decided for it once you concluded that two millers are impossible).

And when you got gunned for reasons you constructed pretty strange explanations for your reads.

In case that anyone didn't read my case yet, I urge you to go through it and at least comment on it:


+ Show Spoiler +


On June 30 2013 21:48 Oatsmaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2013 21:47 Vivax wrote:
On June 30 2013 21:29 Oatsmaster wrote:
On June 30 2013 21:00 Vivax wrote:
Apologies, mistook that for another defense of marv's claim (Interpreted it as: Marv would have had a 50 % chance of getting counterclaimed and dying).

That doesn't change the fact that marv did the same thing as scum in another game, and as Oats pointed out, in all of this you keep assuming that marv is town. He did the same 17 minutes into the game in the other game.

Ok 2 things here.
1. Rayn is scum for instantly taking marv as modconfirmed town.
2. Marv is null for doing this as scum before.


If Rayn is scum marv is likely town imo.

This exudates so much confidence into marv being town that I don't see it coming from scum about scum.
if someone was dumb enough to fakeclaim after marv

well yeah Im just saying that Rayn isnt scum for not knowing about previous game where marv fakeclaimed miller and replaced out.


Rayn is scummy for his unnatural confidence into marv being town.
Followed by him not adapting his opinion to the new information posted about marv and using whatever he can to justify his unjustified townread.

What we have in Rayn is probably a scum seeing a townie claim and immediately taking sides for the townie.
From a scum point of view, claiming townies seem to be in a strong position, especially when they know that their team will not counterclaim the townie.
They will usually try to pick the right side rather than fighting the claim, scum loves to be on the right side.
They feel it's going to earn them trust if they simply take the claim at face value and move on to other stuff, defending the townie against other people's doubts, expecting to look like they were right.

A lot of Rayn's reasoning for marv being town stems from the fact that he assumes that there can't be two millers.
That is fallacious, and a scumslip, Lazermonkey fell for the same mistake, as I will show you (also notice that Lazermonkey pointed out some of Rayn's mistakes but doesn't pursue him as scumread).

1. Rayn quickly thought post-claim that two millers weren't possible.

On June 30 2013 06:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Cool. If nobody counterclaims the next step is that the third party (if here) is going to protect you.


On June 30 2013 06:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
marv, now that i can be sure that you are town and i do actually have to find scum instead of bullshitting around, let's work together and find all the mafia on D1. Deal?


On June 30 2013 06:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I bet that was not 5 minutes into the game when one person has posted before you.
That is really an unnecessary risk that i do not think you would take as scum in case the real miller is present.


(stutters says there can be two millers)

On June 30 2013 06:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is no way there are 2 millers in the game so cut talking about that as a possibility already.


What's scummy about this:
  • Rayn mentions the chance of a counterclaim.
  • 5 minutes later he's sure marv is town.
  • 6 minutes later he says marv would not fakeclaim as scum
  • 20 minutes later he says there can't be two millers


Implication:

→ Rayn did not really expect a counterclaim, as seen in point 2, 3 and 4. Only a fraction of players posted at the time so it was not rational to dismiss a counterclaim that quickly.

He explains his reasoning here:

On June 30 2013 07:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2013 07:12 Vivax wrote:
It's possible I guess. I don't think it's worth speculating about until another miller claims.

Lazermonkey's vote on WoS gives me a townie feeling. Any differing opinions? Do you agree?Yes? Why?

This is how i see it:
marv claimed before iGrok announced the cop is in fact a parity cop. In case the cop was normal and as there is no GF, it's fair that there is one miller. Two millers make the game insanely hard for a cop, and with two miller claims town might run in circles finding which of the millers is "mafia". As for parity cop, having two millers ease up the game much. If the parity cop is stupid enough to not check marv on N1, they still can check the other miller claim on N2 (as if marv is town he will die on N1) and use that to confirm his earlier and future checks.

If there is no cop there is no point in having millers. One might be okay in the sense that it fucks with the town, but not too much. Two millers and no cop is basically impossible.

marv would not claim miller in either scenario because there is no need to.
So that's why i think marv is town and there is exactly 1 miller.

I agree that Lazer is probably town. His opening post was careless and i don't think he would have done that as scum. His vote on WoS is good as WoS is probably scum. :D

What do you think about Stutters? Mainly his posts about the miller thing. They are really really bad.


Let's dissect this:

1. Rayn says only one miller is possible with standard cop (don't even know why he mentioned this as it's unrelated)
2. Rayn says two millers make the game too easy for parity cop coz he can prime his check on one N2 if the other dies N1 (lolz)
3. Rayn says only one miller is possible with no cop. Also no miller is possible.

And he says: THAT'S WHY MARV IS TOWN (cause two millers are unlikely)

This question arises:

It sticks out that in all of this, Rayn never considers that town could have no miller.
Why does Rayn not consider that town has no miller?
Cause he first gave marv full credit (too quickly, knowing that the claim must be true) and now has to justify it.
Cause he knew that marv's claim was true, and hence had trouble imagining things from a perspective where town could have no miller.

Futhermore:

On June 30 2013 09:41 Lazermonkey wrote:
EBWOP: To expand on that, what is it that makes you think that marv is to bright to fake claim miller in this game despite having done so in another game. The claim was risky in that game, just as the hypothetical fake claim would be in this game. Still you say there cannot be a possibilty that Marv is scum in this game.


On June 30 2013 09:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The fact that there is a rolename for each possible miller. If you fakeclaim, you take a 50% chance of 1-1 trade as mafia, which is not good 5min into D1.

There is lot to talk about. Stutters and WoS are scummy. Do you agree? We talk about marv more when he posts more.


Rayn was well aware of the fact that millers have names. And yet he said that marv would not have claimed miller cause a guy with the same name would have gotten one of them lynched. BUT MARV NEVER CLAIMED HIS NAME, and Rayn never asked him for it.
This shows that Rayn had the intention to defend marv, not that he was figuring out his alignment genuinely.

For us, it means that today we should lynch Rayn imo.

I also mentioned that Lazer made the same mistake in not assuming the genuine perspective, here:

On June 30 2013 07:25 Lazermonkey wrote:
Regarding the the possibilties of there being two millers in the setup.

First off, I'm going to make the assumption that there are only three scum in this game. Secondly, looking at the roles in possible for scum you can see that the only one power role in our beloved friend Adolf "the roleblocker." Hitler. Now, assuming there is only 1 Hitler (which I don't think is a very bold assumption) the most powerfull scum team is in theory goon x2 + GF, a relativly weak team. Having two millers vs this team, even without additional blue roles, honestly seems kinda OP as you would either get into a postion with 2 modconfirmed townies D1 or a group of 3 people where you know for sure that one is scum. So, once again assuming (-.-)that the game is fairly balanced I don't think there are two millers.

And the conclusion you should draw from this is that Marvs claim probably means he is town.


Knowing that marv is town, he didn't assume that there could be no miller.
I don't get this. So your issue is that I assumed that there had to be a miller?I didn't. If I had, why would I even have written that shit? If I knew there was 1 miller and 1 miller only then scum cannot fake claim. Or, they can but its at best a 1-1 trade. The reason I wrote that was because I wanted to showcase why the hypothetical, less risky marv, would not claim miller when he was scum because if there was a real miller in the game, he would look really really bad.


Again...

Show nested quote +
On June 30 2013 07:25 Lazermonkey wrote:
Regarding the the possibilties of there being two millers in the setup.

First off, I'm going to make the assumption that there are only three scum in this game. Secondly, looking at the roles in possible for scum you can see that the only one power role in our beloved friend Adolf "the roleblocker." Hitler. Now, assuming there is only 1 Hitler (which I don't think is a very bold assumption) the most powerfull scum team is in theory goon x2 + GF, a relativly weak team. Having two millers vs this team, even without additional blue roles, honestly seems kinda OP as you would either get into a postion with 2 modconfirmed townies D1 or a group of 3 people where you know for sure that one is scum. So, once again assuming (-.-)that the game is fairly balanced I don't think there are two millers.

And the conclusion you should draw from this is that Marvs claim probably means he is town.


I don't know, am I reading something wrong here? I see you claiming that marv is probably town cause there can't be two millers.

But you just stated that you didn't assume that there had to be a miller.

On the contrary, your post in question is footed on the idea that there is a miller and that it's marv, and that he's town cause there can't be two millers.
JESUZ. Okay, I'll try one more time to explain. If you still don't get it then I'll just drop the issue. Maybe I'm just being terribly unclear, but w/e. I don't think this is a very important point TBH and I'd rather focus on something more productive...

What I thought when I wrote that post:
1. There are probebly not two millers
2. There are either 1 or 0 millers
3. Assume Marv is not playing risky as scum (which I was wrong about, which is why I got abit unsure of my read on marv.)

Now

4. Assume marv IS scum.
5. Assume marv is at least as smart as myself

thus

6. Marv knows there is one or zero millers in the game.
7. Marv knows that if there are one miller in the game and he claims, he is fucked.
8. Marv decides not to claim.

combine that with

9. marv claims miller.
10. We just went through why he isn't scum, so naturally we would think he is scum.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 30 2013 22:45 GMT
#386
EBWOP: Lol, last point should obviously be he is town XD
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22106 Posts
June 30 2013 22:50 GMT
#387
Well what's sure is that your explanation is easier to buy than Rayn's.

At least you checked if it was possible that marv would fakeclaim, and you put out your reasoning for assuming he's town.

That's why we lynch Rayn today and not you. Don't you think it's a sweet idea?
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 30 2013 22:52 GMT
#388
On July 01 2013 07:50 Vivax wrote:
Well what's sure is that your explanation is easier to buy than Rayn's.

At least you checked if it was possible that marv would fakeclaim, and you put out your reasoning for assuming he's town.

That's why we lynch Rayn today and not you. Don't you think it's a sweet idea?
No. Almost anyone is better than Rayn at this point.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
June 30 2013 22:54 GMT
#389
Lol, why do you continue to ignore jarjar? The only time you you've ever mentioned him was when you asked him the question with no follow up. What is your stance on him?
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
June 30 2013 23:00 GMT
#390
Certain things have come to my attention that need to be addressed immediately.

The game is now paused. Do not post. I will try to resolve this as soon as I can.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22106 Posts
June 30 2013 23:03 GMT
#391
+ Show Spoiler +
No, I'm taking that back. You are also a good lynch.

The reasoning you mention now is not a reasoning you mentioned at the time, where you argued from the point of view that there had to be one miller, and that the miller was marv.

You could easily be lying now.
But it's a matter of belief to judge you for that, now that you offered an explanation that is not possible to be confirmed based on your earlier post.
I still think you fell for the same mistake Rayn fell for.

tl; dr:

Now you say you thought "extra" stuff at the time, but at the time you didn't mention that. Hence I don't know if it's true.

Now you say that you thought marv was town cause he would not have balls to do that as scum, but in the post you claim that he's town cause there can only be one miller.

BUT, marv himself said that he fakeclaimed miller as scum in another game (which you wanted to look up, as if marv would lie about that lol, for what?Does he need to lie to discredit his claim?)

With all of this you mention now, your reasoning boils down to the fact that regardless of the amount of millers, marv would be town cause not ballsy enough to do that.
BUT it's bullshit, cause he said himself he was, and your post used an entirely different reasoning, different from this one:


3. Assume Marv is not playing risky as scum (which I was wrong about, which is why I got abit unsure of my read on marv.)
7. Marv knows that if there are one miller in the game and he claims, he is fucked.
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
June 30 2013 23:09 GMT
#392
Everyone, please pm me the Role PM that you recieved.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Stutters695
Profile Joined July 2012
2610 Posts
June 30 2013 23:14 GMT
#393
Sent
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43270 Posts
June 30 2013 23:16 GMT
#394
sent
table for two on a tv tray
gumshoe
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada3602 Posts
June 30 2013 23:19 GMT
#395
sent
gumshoe bullshitting at 120%~~Prplz
JarJarDrinks
Profile Joined March 2013
United States1302 Posts
June 30 2013 23:22 GMT
#396
On July 01 2013 06:38 Vivax wrote:
JarJar, question for you.

Rayn gave Lazer a townread as reaction to me doing the same.
Why did you call Rayn out but not me?
Good point. I just didnt notice anything else scummy from you nor was I really looking. I only noticed it from rayn after I went back into his filter.
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
June 30 2013 23:26 GMT
#397
Ok, you can stop sending in role PMs. I've got what I needed to know.

Hassybaby is now cohosting this game.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43270 Posts
June 30 2013 23:29 GMT
#398
Can we post already?
table for two on a tv tray
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
June 30 2013 23:31 GMT
#399
No. I'm currently writing up what happened, I'll explain it all in a minute
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22106 Posts
June 30 2013 23:35 GMT
#400
On July 01 2013 08:22 JarJarDrinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2013 06:38 Vivax wrote:
JarJar, question for you.

Rayn gave Lazer a townread as reaction to me doing the same.
Why did you call Rayn out but not me?
Good point. I just didnt notice anything else scummy from you nor was I really looking. I only noticed it from rayn after I went back into his filter.


Who do you think could be scum outside of s0lstice?

As you may have noticed I'm for Rayn and Lazer scum atm. Their explanations become increasingly dangly, hence I'd like you to take a look at the matter and comment on it.

If you don't think they're worthy of the noose, please give me a rundown on why I should be voting s0lstice instead of them.
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