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there was a really awkward section of game thread where skanjab and I both dropped blue tells. Mine was way more blatant than skanjab's, but when he flipped bue I instantly remembered the post and wondered how the hell scum had found that and not my own doofus posts. It started with Xzav indicating he had iVLosk as vanilla town. I said something about "remind me after the game ends" and Skanjab said something about "don't speculate about blue vs not".
If you look back, nearly every single time someone speculated about blues one of the 3 players with blue roles posted some version of stfu.
I actually didn't have iV down as a blue, because I thought if there was night action discussion in the QT he would have doctored the QT discussion copy/paste so as not to leave obvious gaps. Since he left gaps, I assumed it was speculation about blue roles or something. But, as it turns out, that correlation held for him, too.
My "remind me after the game ends" was followed by some wtf are you talking about posts, which at the time made me sick to my stomach. I shut down the convo quickly, commenting "I misinterpreted something, I think".
As a VT I will get all up in another player's grill for speculating out loud on roles, and would be perfectly happy to draw an NK that could keep the real PRs in the game another day. As a blue in this particular game, with no meta here indicating that as VT I might be decoying, I was pretty pissed at myself.
Note: Over time this sort of tell gets quite convoluted, with VT players sometimes being all closed mouthed, and with PRs yelling at people for speculation in order to look VT. In a "clean" environment where few players have any meta or knowledge about each other, the correlations are pretty straightforward.
Onegu you were so blatantly role fishing on day 4 that if I hadn't already had my vote on you I would have voted you for that alone. Since I thought you were scum, I didn't even try to get you to stop speculating. It was just more evidence added to the reasons to vote you. That's one thing to avoid when you have a scum role.
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hedging vs waffling.
Hedging is taking an ambiguous stance on a player. "X looks scummy because reason, but I'm not sure yet." Or asking questions. "Do you think X looks scummy because reason?" rather than taking a stand on your own.
Waffling is flip-flopping on a player, thinking they are scummy and then thinking they are town.
Town players do both of these things, but are usually more willing to take a stand and say "So and so is scummy looking because reason", even though they may change their mind later.
You did more hedging than waffling, especially asking leading questions.
In scumhunting I like to ask open-ended questions so that i give the player I am asking fewer clues about what sort of answer I will find townish.
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On June 17 2013 08:10 StiMaDDict wrote:Gg well played, both town and mafia. iV and ffer were outstanding. As for me.. I think I did a pretty aweful job. I had a complete mental break down after LoneMeow flipped town. I was so sure of it after firere345 flip Day1. I tunnelled LoneMeow so hard. sorry  Anyway I'm going to go over the whole thread again in hope that I can much from it.
The Xzav lynch really took the wind out of my sails in much the same way; both that I let/helped it happen and that I didn't stick with Onegu once I sort of had iV back in my town pile. But, perfect town wins and perfect scum wins don't grow on trees. Most games this size at least one person gets mislynched.
One of the things I've realized recently is that a reads-based game like mine is not often going to synch up well with a strategy/optimization based game which IV's game resembles, though I think his style actually incorporates both reads and optimization.
I should probably work on finding middle ground myself, but I don't like paying attention to the numbers and straight bandwagon analysis when they contradict reads I feel strongly about.
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Onegu did play this really well. Atmospheric noise was unkind to the scum team. Unless Firere is an experienced player, all the ringers were playing for town.
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One thing I really liked about this postgame is that I received some useful feedback about my play, and also from reading the QT. As a blue, finding that I was seldom mentioned on the QT and never really featured as a strong town read was a relief since I thought I'd made a serious slip on day 1.
AxelGreasersDog's QT post #15 was one of the most insightful commentaries I've read in a long time, particularly:
I like first posts in games. While basing anything off small data sets is unreliable so is extracting information from noisy data sets.
Thus even though first post in games is a small amount of data it is "clean"
That is one of the whys that scum like to shit up a thread by making it loud and noisy and emotional.
If there is emotive crap flying around it is much more likely that the townies will mis-attribute the off/scummy behaviour to personal non game related reactions to the crap.
In first posts, the townies, come out of vacuum of knowledge, scum come out of the scum QT.
To me at that point the amount of difference in what the (scum vs town)players think they know is greatest.
At this point in the thread the thread acquires a dead baby seal. Everybody scum or not, playing or not, reacts to the seal.
I may be able to tell what kinds of human they are from their reactions, but after this point I don't get any more first post reads. Oh well.
I'm not sure specifically what I will modify yet, but this will change my future first posts, and will also affect what I look for in first posts. I told Prome in one of our PM exchanges during the game that playing with TL players at MS has changed my approach to getting players sorted, with an emphasis on more quickly, more decisively and more vocally.
Thanks to all the folks who have provided feedback. Game-improving feedback doesn't always grow on trees.
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Thanks! I really enjoyed playing with you, too. I probably won't play another newbie game. Mostly I wanted to get better with the user interface and the game thread layout.
I'm overextended in mafia games at MS at the moment, with 8 games in progress where I am still alive. Playing a game with 48 hour days right now would seriously impact my efforts in those games. I plan to save some bandwidth for TL games once a couple of these games finish or I die, whichever comes first.
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On June 19 2013 06:30 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I'm overextended in mafia games at MS at the moment, with 8 games in progress where I am still alive. When the 'newbie games' have players in them that are currently playing 8 SIMULTANEOUS games of mafia, it makes me nervous about signing up.
yabbut I'm playing with Ents. This game was a very nice change of pace.
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On June 19 2013 06:36 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 06:30 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I'm overextended in mafia games at MS at the moment, with 8 games in progress where I am still alive. When the 'newbie games' have players in them that are currently playing 8 SIMULTANEOUS games of mafia, it makes me nervous about signing up. From the same post: Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I probably won't play another newbie game. Mostly I wanted to get better with the user interface and the game thread layout.
Generally speaking the majority of players in the newbie games are as inexperienced as everyone else in the game with them. This game was an exception apparently. 
Yeah, I think the random numbers were unkind to the scum team in that respect.
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The mafia roleblocker action went before the JK, so, I think it was pretty even.
I remember hearing that MS games tend to be more townsided than TL games. I sort of expected town in this game to have the Blue equivalent of a rusty spoon and to have to depend primarily on daytime scumhunting.
I think town could have figured this out even if my JK actions went more astray, but it would have been a squeaker for whichever side won.
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On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 23:04 fferyllt wrote:
The mafia roleblocker action went before the JK, so, I think it was pretty even.
I remember hearing that MS games tend to be more townsided than TL games. I sort of expected town in this game to have the Blue equivalent of a rusty spoon and to have to depend primarily on daytime scumhunting.
I think town could have figured this out even if my JK actions went more astray, but it would have been a squeaker for whichever side won. This game, scum got some bad breaks. Not being able to find a replacement for Yavanna screwed them up pretty badly, and they were all very new players, compared to town who had 3 mafiascum veterans (sometimes RNG works that way). I think that impacted the game quite a bit more than the blue balance, which I still don't see much of a problem with. The setup I had in mind was a Hatter, a Masoner and 1 out of 4 roles at random (JK, Vet, Cop or Medic) versus the scumteam we had. I thought about a scum Masoner, but I figured that by D2 or D3, someone would know there were 2 masoners and it would be easy to see that one of them must be town and the other scum (I also thought of giving town 2 masoners just to fuck with that logic ). Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops. But... both of my last newbie games the town won fairly handily (as opposed to the first one I hosted, which scum won with a flawless victory), I might have to ramp it up for the next time  EDIT: and in other, totally unrelated news, the new True Blood episode was absolutely terrible. Even with my low expectations for it.
I'm not sure how much of a problem Yavanna's absence was, really. I had planned to do whatever I could to either determine she was town or get her lynched on day 2. She went to the back burner when she didn't show up. If day 2 had ended with her lynch instead of lonemeow it would have been better for town than the mislynch plus the modkill.
Maybe I would have failed to get her lynched. But unlike day 3, I had a very clear target and goal in mind to start with, and wound up floundering about because that target never showed up.
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On June 20 2013 00:55 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 00:52 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:50 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:43 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:34 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not? I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway. It's a mindset thing. Scum doesn't know if there's a cop or not and lives in perpetual fear of that evil red check. Even if there was not a godfather, they would fear the cop, because he might be there anyway. The godfather allows you to play more freely (ironically making you less likely to be cop checked, because you are probably speaking your mind more, which is generally a townie thing to do). It also allows for big plays (such as needlessly fakeclaiming). Big plays tend to attract cop attention (if they don't get you lynched). By having the extra buffer of protection from investigative roles, big plays become safer for mafia. That's a pretty intangible psychological benefit ('playing freely') and then something pretty niche (fakeclaims). I'd hazard if you looked at all the times mafia fake-claimed, the godfather would not be over-represented. If I had to speculate, I'd say godfather was even under-represented, because of the risk (often largely psychological) of losing "our godfather". For balancing purposes, a scumteam with a godfather when there isn't a cop is the same as a scumteam with a goon instead (in my opinion ^^). Not to say I find your game imbalanced btw. Just as a general point. I generally agree. The godfather wasn't counted as a power role for the scumteam for balancing purposes. But I do think it can help with mindset. Irritating that the godfather had to leave the game, else we could ask her to comment on your hypothesis :D You might well be right with the mindset thing I guess, it's not something I can empathise with terribly well though (you came out the blocks running as mafia too, if I'm not mistaken) edit: arguably while she was here, she did play the most 'free'. I have a feeling my sample size may be a little small though
Yeah she did play the most free. She appeared to be actively trying to infiltrate the nascent town bloc. Those were the behaviors that caught my eye. Softball questions to obvtown Xzav. And pushing Umasi to the outskirts.
The Gotard bandwagon injected a ton of wifom into the game. It would have been disastrous to just lynch through that wagon.
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EPT
