EPTI don't think of Survivor as a boring role, but I don't think being a commuter is necessary. I think it's better to offer Survivor this choice at game start: he can choose to either be 1-shot bulletproof, or return green to DT checks for the rest of the game. This is less flexible than 2-shot commuter but slightly more reliable, and lets the Survivor pick a "style" to play for the game.
[M][N] Les Mafia - Page 18
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I don't think of Survivor as a boring role, but I don't think being a commuter is necessary. I think it's better to offer Survivor this choice at game start: he can choose to either be 1-shot bulletproof, or return green to DT checks for the rest of the game. This is less flexible than 2-shot commuter but slightly more reliable, and lets the Survivor pick a "style" to play for the game. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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E: of course you could just make the game double hilarious and have it be swingy AND have like 9 survivors or something horrible like that | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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Like, when I tunnel people as town, the one thing that gets me to back off is people manning up and contributing a ton. The thread was dead D2 of actual analysis (barring a few small cases), if you don't count what I was doing. If someone read the thread and looked at the contributions of the players during D2 and saw I was being lynched they'd be like "wat" And in part this is why I am like "wat" because I still don't understand what people really found scummy about my reaction during N2. I immediately realized I scumslipped, because I'm a smart guy and I notice these things after I post when I read my post for the first time. I did my best to explain my reasoning in a logical way, and yes, I didn't analyze a whole lot since I was busy defending myself from this horrible push, but it's what I had to do. Where in my mindset where I specifically shoot down all of DP's arguments is there a scum mindset? I really don't understand what people found scummy about my play besides this: BH was busy D1 because he was in 2 other games and arguing in the post-game of another game he was hosting BH "scumslipped" N1 and spent a good deal of time defending himself vigourously and completely openly, sharing every thought that entered his mind with the thread. E: Like people were like "wow dude you can't say you 'stepped in it' or act like you made a mistake, that's a scum mindset" but it's really not-- it *is* a mistake to scumslip as town, since I should have known the number of scum wasn't outlined in the OP. The fact that I shared my wry jokes and observations with the thread was because I'm totally open as a townie, and hide nothing-- but people considered these things scumtells and I'd like to know why. And if you think I'm wrong here, then this is a learning opportunity for me-- please advise me. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
And look, I've addressed that Night 1 I had a lot of shit on my plate. I assumed that by masoning with Marv I'd prove my towniness, just from having done it. Then the whole thing with DP popped up and I had to deal with it. Like, you think "oh blazinghand didn't use his mason power well" but I masoned someone everyone was sure was town, I didn't think people would be like "herp derp there's a scum mason in a normal mini" or even worse, speculate that somehow Marv was scum with me. (edit: also I assumed I was the only mason, which seemed like a reasonable assumption) I'm gonna say this though: I put forth an effort to scumhunt while I was still alive that I'm not sure I could replicate as scum. I'm not sure I've ever tried as hard as I did during my last 36 hours alive during this game at any game of mafia. Driving me wasn't just an urge to survive, but something more-- a feeling that I was right. I haven't ever experienced what it's like to be mislynched as town inevitably before this, and let me tell you: it's demoralizing. But I dug deep within me and found something that I'm not sure I'll ever be able to find except in situations like this. I hadn't really been reading the thread, everyone (and I mean everyone) thought I was scum, and really it seemed hopeless. To come back from that and nail 2 scum (though misnailing one town) and make 2 solid townreads (though DP definitely had me going) I think is probably one of my greatest accomplishments, ever, in mafia. I consider what I did in the second part of D2 to have been an isshokenmei (link), an extraordinary effort I probably won't ever be able to achieve again easily, and certainly not artificially. If I was scum, I'd absolutely try, but doing something like that takes a great deal of motivation. So what would it look like if I was scum? Probably the same, but with less effort, with worse (and more wrong) cases. I wouldn't be able to replicate that effort as scum. E: And if it seems like I'm butthurt, yeah, I'm butthurt. I legitimately think some of my best play ever happened during D2, and I got lynched. I think I was pretty clearly town, and I think people are just bad at integrating new information into their reads. Do I blame marv a bit for lynching me? yes, of course. Guys like Yamato etc thought I was town and either didn't unvote me or failed to convince others. Marv though, he had his doubts, though he didn't voice them, and he didn't contribute for most of D2-- people even became suspicious of him later for this. The thing about Marv though is, he's a leader. I expect him to lead. And when he falls asleep at the wheel, there was nobody else to step up and lead town. This is why I don't blame guys like Yamato or spicydino-- they are not leaders, they did not have the responsibility of pushing their townreads on me to save me. | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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On June 04 2013 05:20 s0Lstice wrote: What are you trying to accomplish here BH? You will be satisfied if we all agree that your mislynch was Marv's fault? I would find that unsatisfactory. I mean, I'd probably get some satisfaction but I don't think that's what I want here. I want to know what I could have done 24 hours out from the lynch to stop it form happening. If that answer is "nothing", then so be it-- but I also feel a need to demonstrate that given my time constraints, I did the best I could. People seem to think I didn't care about this game, but I actually think I'm one of the few people who really did care. I feel sad that I got lynched. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On June 04 2013 05:21 WaveofShadow wrote: Valid point I suppose. I agree DP played extremely well as did Vayne. I'm not sure how your 'best game' criteria is only based on how well they fooled YOU however. I also still don't think it's fair to solely blame marv; town lost because town didn't step up, it's as simple as that. You think it's fair for me to blame the entire rest of town when I had you pegged as mafia D1 in Carnival Cruise but nobody listened to me? The onus is on me to find a way to make the town listen as well as on them for not listening. This is a reasonable point. When I got rolling in the thread, what should I have done? I had two times during this game when I had a lot of time to do stuff. One of those times was during N1, and I spent a lot of my time thoroughly debunking DP's scumslip case on me. I feel in retrospect I should have ignored him and just hunted scum, but that's not something that I'm super good at doing. I have a need to argue with people who state things that are wrong (like here). The other time I had time was like the last 30 hours of D2, and I think I played extremely well, the best I have ever played, during that time. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 04 2013 05:25 Dandel Ion wrote: That's the same thing you admonish other players for, though. You had a townread for his first-cycle play and were not able to change that even when he played "for" mafia. This shit is not anybody's "fault", though, it's basic human behaviorism to just stick with what used to be your thoughts previously. And it obviously goes all possible ways. What I hope you learn from this game is that you absolutely cannot, ever, expect a player, no matter how "good" you think he is, to play objectively well. It's just bad thinking, wrong, and doesn't get you anywhere. Wave did the same mistake from the other direction, constantly worrying about marv suddenly figuring the game out (even after days of him not motioning even slightly to go anywhere near that direction) 99% of the times, it's not gonna happen. Don't rely on other players to play the game for you. Etc. Like, I consider my final read on DP to still be okay, just not good. He was playing for the scum but I still couldn't see scum jumping on and pushing my scumslip like that-- and I was right, in a way, since he wasn't scum. I knew something was up with him, as I posted my my final read post, but basically, as a survivor he was never worth lynching. I'd say that my townread on DP was not a mistake in the same way that my scumread on GK was. Successfully reading a survivor is hard, and lynching DP would have been a mislynch. And yeah I realized that I can't rely on others, as I have posted previously. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 04 2013 05:25 VayneAuthority wrote: The problem is you think it was a skill level issue when the problem was people played by the setup in a closed setup. If a mason wasn't already dead this game would be very different. Even as scum, I was trying to get people to stop thinking in terms of setup and think in terms of motive but to no avail. Its one of the things that really bothers me, when people play by meta and setup rather than by motive/logic Oh yeah Iamp claiming 7 minutes before the deadline screwed me, but it's not like the guy played bad otherwise. (he also might have had time restrictions and couldn't post like 30 seconds before the deadline). If it weren't for that play, he'd be MVP imo. This setup was specifically a "don't speculate about the setup" setup with 2 half-masons and a 1-kp scum team with a 2-shot vigi. I personally don't speculate about setups much, but I get why people do it. And I don't think people were too "unskilled" to realize I was town. I think skill in mafia is more about being able to make good cases and reads than it is about recognizing them. Even a "bad" townie knows how to sheep. It's not the job of most townies to recognize when a wagon or tunnel goes bad, it's the job of those who step forwards to lead the town to do that. If everyone thought independently, I could blame them, but most people follow the herd, even against their best instincts. I know that I certainly have sheeped cases because it's a lot easier to recognize a good case than to write one. Changing your mind on someone you've thought is scum for 48 hours is hard. I'm just wondering what I could have done given my time restrictions to do better. N1 I'm fairly sure I should have briefly rebuffed DP then hunted scum, even though doing so is against my nature. Any comments about the last half of D2? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
And like, I legitimately think my play this game was great when I had time for it, and clearly it didn't "show" that I cared (or maybe it did, and didn't show that it was town) because I still got lynched. But is that really it? Given my time restrictions, nothing I could have done better, just make sure not to sign up for too many games at once next time? Also like 100% it's legitimate for me to place some of the blame for my lynch on other people, just as legitimate as it is for me to blame myself for the lynch. I guess my decision to sign up for multiple games was the main reason for my mislynch, giving me primary fault-- but the secondary fault falls on the part of the most vocal and capable townie, Marv. And I also think it's totally legitimate for me to think I'm the town MVP of this game. Sure, I got mislynched, and sure, I basically pushed mislynches on both GK and Sputnik Theory (though ST had to be lynched eventually anyways) but I think I played like a champ. I believe it is totally my place to question others on why they didn't "clean up my mess" because part of being a good townie is differentiating bad town from scum. AND, even if I'm not right to blame Marv or Yamato or whoever, I sure as hell am right to question them about it and try to make sure everyone plays better next time, right? | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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On June 04 2013 06:00 WaveofShadow wrote: I think it's time to take a deep breath and set fire to your feelings about being mislynched as they float downriver in a wooden boat. Let it go. I did that a week ago, and coming back, I still feel like I need to learn or teach a lesson from this. You don't improve (or rather, I don't improve) by letting things go. I improve by finding out my mistakes and not repeating them. Most people accept getting mislynched as part of the game, and that's fine. I find it unacceptable. A good closing thought for this game isn't "I made a mistake", but rather, "I made a mistake, and I won't make it again, and here's how." | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 04 2013 06:04 marvellosity wrote: The long and short of it is this; it was about 48 hours between the time you said you were going to search for mafia and when you actually looked for mafia. You did look pretty townie when you looked for mafia, yes. But you left it too late that there existed a very real possibility (in my mind) that you'd put it off for so long so you could just make one enormous effort to stave off your lynch, and that also you could gauge town reactions. My gut call towards the end of day 2 was that you were town, but my gut's been plenty wrong before, and given the slip + 48hour scumhunting gap, I didn't have the confidence to move the lynch elsewhere. If you say you're going to scumhunt on Sunday evening and you only produce something Tuesday evening despite multiple promise in between, it smells. Even after you argued with DP on Sunday evening, you had Monday to do shit, and you did nothing that day either despite repeatedly promising to. If you're short of time then don't promise shit you can't deliver... Reasonable enough. So I should have stated I'd be busy for the first half of D2, and would contribute later. I didn't anticipate needing a long time to prepare for the interview, but it happened and I should have accounted for that, or at least kept the thread better updated on my activity. Thank you for the advice. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
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On June 04 2013 06:15 marvellosity wrote: I made a post at some point which had about 6 or so of your quotes all saying you were scumhunting imminently, where nothing had come the scum motive is that you're putting off having to contribute, and you're sensing who the thread wants to lynch before making your play i'd have been far less inclined to lynch you if you hadn't kept saying that the cases were coming soon and then they didn't come soon. I know you're not one to bring real life into games, but i'd much rather you said "i can't do x until this time"... which WILL look dodgy, but it will look a lot less dodgy than how what you did came across Ah, I see how that could be a scum motive. The thread was relatively dead during D2 though (except for everyone saying they wanted to lynch me), so I'm not sure that scum me would have been waiting to gauge thread sentiment, but I see how in other situations that could easily be the case. I think I could reasonably say when I'm available without mentioning real life, but I'll probably just say I'm eating dinner for whatever period of time. I just don't think it's ever a reasonable choice to mention real life except if you're talking to a host and asking to replace out or something. I mean, there's no harm in doing it but it's always meaningless-- there's nothing stopping scumBH from saying "oh yeah I'm busy for 24 hours" when in reality he's gauging the thread or whatever. Doing so should give no towncred except a little bit for at least keeping the thread in the loop. This is basically how I feel about talking about IRL | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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Draw: TL Mafia XLVII Town Detective Survived Win: Student Mafia Town Medic Survived Win: Purgatory Mafia Town Vanilla Shot N5 Loss: Resistance I - London Calling Town Vanilla Endgamed Draw: Sleeper Cell Mafia II Town Vanilla Killed N6 Loss: Werewolves Invade Teamliquid II Town Doctor Killed N0 Loss: Resistance II - Tunnel Rats Mafia Vanilla Endgamed Loss: Storm Mafia Town Floridian Lynched D2 Win: Aperture Mafia Town Phoenix Wright, Ace Attorney Killed N1 Loss: The Sum of All Fears Mafia Town US Doctor Killed N1 Win: Im a cop you idiot mafia Mafia Vanilla Lynched D1 Loss: TL Mafia LI Town Vanilla Engamed Loss: TL Mafia Area LIII Town Vanilla modkilled D2 Loss: TL Mafia LIV Town Vigilante Killed N4 Loss: TL Mafia LV Town Mad Hatter Killed N2 Loss: Emergency Mini Mafia! Third Party Serial Killer Lynched D3 Win: Age of Empires: The Age of Kings Mini Mafia Byzantines Lynched D1 Loss: Bureaucracy Mafia! Mafia Hired Hitman Killed D3 Win: Rockband Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Killed N1 What: Caller Game - Remove Kebab Caller Win Loss: Liquid City Mafia Town Watcher Killed N2 Loss: Whose Line Is It Anyway? Mafia! Town Vanilla Endgamed Win: Mario Mini Mafia Town Jailkeeper Killed N3 Win: Paranoid Mafia Town Mason Miller Survived Loss: Parallel World Mafia Mafia Goku Killed N3 Loss: Themed Game Mafia Anakin Skywalker swarmed to death by hipsters D1 Loss: TL Mafia LX Town Sheriff Shot Night 3 Win: The Game [N] Mafia Messenger Shot Night 2 Loss: Les Mafia Night Mason lynched D2 Win: Doctor Who Mafia The Doctor shot D2 Win: Carnival Cruise Mafia Mafia Thomas Jefferson killed Night 2 11-17-3 clearly i am the proest of pros, 33% winrate | ||
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