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On May 28 2013 07:25 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 07:22 VayneAuthority wrote:On May 21 2013 06:13 goodkarma wrote:
I highly doubt there's two town QT-makers. Further, I doubt Rayne was vigi'd, meaning that the presence of three scum and a serial killer is possible. Therefore, BH is likely scum.
##Vote: BH I keep coming back to this post and the point at which he made it. He was fabricating what the setup was about far before we had any sort of extensive information, I really doubt that any town person makes this post. What I am trying to figure out is if he is the SK or mafia. There are a couple of things that make me think mafia, especially how he orders his lynch targets.
Can you elaborate a bit Marv? What about the ordering of his lynch targets says mafia over SK.
WoS-- It can't be a coincidence that just about everyone in this game has wanted to kill GK at some point. This is just a guess, but my gut tells me that he is the SK, and the scum team pegged him early. The best way for them to deal with the SK is to lynch him, for obvious reasons....hence all the heat he has been getting from all sides. From this point onward, the moment scum can get the SK in the noose, they win. It really worries me that GK is such a popular candidate for today. I feel pretty confident that GK is not town, but only marginally confident that he is SK over scum.
Speaking of Marv, he is who I'd like to kill today, but it's not going to happen. DP's vote in particular would be needed, and he is not willing. I'm nervous enough about GK being the SK that I don't want to kill him today.
I'm thinking a Marv/JJ/one of vayne/grush as the remaining scum. As such I'm happy to lynch JJ today with you WoS.
##vote JarJarDrinks
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Marv--
That stuff all paints him as pretty scummy. I'm not sure that there's anything specific that says SK over mafia though. You raise a good point in regards to how he hasn't said much of anything about the SK since he said he had a theory and never shared it (presumably because of the whole Dandel thing).
When you get back, let me know where you ended up on JJD.
@GK
Who is the SK?
@Vayne
You are no longer allowed to get away with this
On May 26 2013 06:12 VayneAuthority wrote:
--snip
There's not much to elaborate on with s0lstice, Its simply that; a gut read with some minor quirks in his play early. I havent seen anything particularly scummy past that so there's the chance that I was -GASP- wrong.
GK called you on it already, and you have not satisfactorily explained. We are waaaaay too late into this game for you to not have some ammo behind your scum reads. Explain better, or I'm going to assume it's just a scummy placeholder and you are scum.
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EBWOP: mafia over SK, in the first bit
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Yea I really don't think lynching a townie (read: me) is our best move right now.
JJ: a little more explanation. Since our player pool remaining is pretty small, I'm starting by removing the town reads (DP and WoS). This leaves marv, grush, you, vayne, and GK. Only one of those is town. I was reading WoS' filter last night as I was trying to decide, after Marv, who I wanted to kill. I didn't explicitly say in thread that I liked what WoS wrote, but that was the reason for my vote. You are correct though that I haven't talked about you much.
That said, I did my own legwork this morning to verify that WoS and my thoughts were in line. Looking at your filter, they're not.
This post got tucked in the back of my mind, but its relevant based on BH's flip.
On May 18 2013 22:21 JarJarDrinks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 22:11 marvellosity wrote:On May 18 2013 22:03 iamperfection wrote:
marv do you think jarjar would try to throw dirt on bh if bh is town and jarjar were scum? Maybe? I understand what you're getting at, but I'm ambivalent about it. Is he trying to imply that BH and I are scumbuddies? Is that so when BH flips red I don't look quite as good? If you think me and BH are both scum then help me bus him. ##vote: blazinghand(Sorry if I'm interpretting your post wrong iamp. But that's what I felt like u were saying)
This post too, makes literally no sense to me as a scum post:
On May 22 2013 11:44 JarJarDrinks wrote:I think the reason everyone is on my case and accussing me of bussing BH is because they don't want to believe that a relative noob was able to ID scum so early in the game. I'd like to point y'all to the last game I played where I got lynched day 1 and called out 2/3 of the scum team in my goodbye post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407058¤tpage=14#279Like what am I really being accused of? The whole asking for credit for BH's flip? - The posts that s0Lstice quoted were all in reference to the same thing: DP calling me a top scumread. Most of those quotes were in the same exchange w/ marv. As for misinterpreting iamps post: Marv, you admitted that he wasn't very clear in his meaning. You really don't believe I could have jumped to that conclusion based on his wording? I even put a disclaimer @ the end of my post that I wasn't sure if that was what he meant.
I don't think there's any way you say this when you know BH is going to flip green. It's too genuine.
Give me more flak for changing my mind if you want, but I think you're town and I don't want to lynch you. I also ask you to have another look at my filter. Lynching me WILL lose us this game.
DP: I'm still not sure I understand why you think I'm scum. Can you elaborate if you are still around?
##unvote
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Time is short for me the rest of the day, and I'll likely be forced to phone post in the afternoon and up to the deadline.
Marv/vayne/grush and GK as the SK. This has to be it, unless I'm severely screwing up my read on DP.
I know I can write a case on Marv (I know Marv, you asked me to), and if I can find time for it today I will. Aside from JJ's filter, I was also looking at Vaynes.
One important thing I noticed is that its like he's making 'scum reads' in a vacuum...or like mailing them in. They don't seem to coincide to any push to get someone lynched, and he doesn't seem to care that nobody is listening. He is content to make scum reads and then watch the thread do what it's going to do. If I have time, I'll flesh this out a little. I need to look at his newb town games and see if he attempted to push anything on anybody.
On other thing that also sticks out from memory is when he was attempting to do NK analysis on Spicy's death, I pointed out that he was a parity cop, and thus couldn't be breadcrumbing us towards any target. He was like 'oh ok' and then stopped analysis. No attempt to give it another go, or revise his thoughts with this crucial bit of information, he was just done....like he really didn't care what results came from the analysis/the analysis was a pretense.
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Marv-
It's a feel thing in relation to the BH scum slip. To me, a townie making a 'scumslip' should be like a live hand grenade to the actual scum team. I don't see scum pursuing it with such passion directly in the heat of the moment. Going all in right off the bat seems unlikely for scum, since they are well aware of the attention they would get when the eventual flip happens. DP went after it with gusto.
Talk to me about this though...did you get the same feeling?
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I asked DP to explain hisself Marv.
I'm afraid he's cruising on the SS Confirmation Bias though.
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I can't make him answer, and the only other vote on me is JarJar, who I addressed.
And, like I said, I'm not sure DP would even let me reason with him right now. I tried before, and seemed to make no impact.
On May 29 2013 00:12 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 00:09 s0Lstice wrote:
Marv-
It's a feel thing in relation to the BH scum slip. To me, a townie making a 'scumslip' should be like a live hand grenade to the actual scum team. I don't see scum pursuing it with such passion directly in the heat of the moment. Going all in right off the bat seems unlikely for scum, since they are well aware of the attention they would get when the eventual flip happens. DP went after it with gusto.
Talk to me about this though...did you get the same feeling? Question: what should scum do if the response of people later in the game is the one you're giving now?
This is very WIFOM-y. My assertion is that he pursued BH without care for how he looked doing it. Scum would have hesitated, and kept a little distance until deciding where to come down on it. Even if they ended up thinking that being a firebrand about it would be helpful to them as you are implying, it still wouldn't look like what DP did. I was in thread watching, there was just about no downtime or hesitancy in DP's pursuit.
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On May 29 2013 00:13 DarthPunk wrote:
I'm about to read through s0lstice's filter. WoS marv CERTAINLY shuts people down as town. read any of our last town games together. He was shutting me down all over the place.
s0lstice the most basic reasons that I want to lynch you are this.
You have flown under the radar, causing me to not have particularly strong feelings about you. This is one of the biggest scum tells for better scum players IMO.
stupid arguments with townies about stupid things. And repeating number analysis too often to the detrement of pushing a scum read. Like if you were town you would be more concerned with lynching your top scum read than postulating ad nauseum about night kills and lylo etc.
Your end game reads are considerably off from mine. Like you want to lynch both grush and marv at lylo or whatever. That is not how i would expect a townie reading the same game as me to feel.
You made a remark calling both marv and I out for being scum and then backflipped when I pointed out that what you were saying was BS, Your read was therefore part of an agenda rather than a genuine insight after reading the thread.
Won't stop talking about marv being scum.
Elimination. You are the scummiest out of who is left.
In response--
1) This would be my first scum game, have you considered that? There shouldn't be any correlation to me not inducing strong feelings in you and me being scum. I should be scum to you for doing scummy things. This point makes no sense.
2) There's been many points this game where I've had to re-address scum reads, and a fair number of times where I was speaking from the standpoint of needing a refresh on filters and didn't have any sure idea on who was scum. At least not enough to call anybody out in thread. I talked about the numbers because, to me, it was important to figuring out what the hell Dandel was doing. They are also important to figuring out who the SK should/shouldn't be killing. This is relevant information. Arguing with Marv was a product of me trying to understand, mostly getting it, but screwing up a few key things. Why it devolved into an argument, I'm not really sure. Marv and I are just combustible I guess. The point though is that I got to where I wanted to be in my understanding, and stopped.
3) You said yourself earlier when I called you scum that our reads being different is not an adequate reason to be calling someone scum. Which is it?
4) Calling you scum and retracting it is something I already explained. Short version: I was pissed at you for constantly asserting Marv is town with no reason behind it. At the time of writing that post, it seemed super destructive because I was frustrated at all that has gone wrong, and it struck me as awful that you'd still be giving free passes when town clearly has no fucking idea what is going on. I was also thinking Marv was scum at that point, so it was particularly abrasive.
5) This is a legit point. I'm on the hook to prove why Marv is scum, and I haven't yet. This one can be corrected though when I have the time to write a proper case.
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DP--the night Yamato died and asked me about Marv...roughly around that time.
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JJ-- you provided plenty of town motivation for how I was behaving in regards to Dandel. Just like you, I made some errors, but I kept talking about it because I was attempting to reason through it. If you admitted to your own errors during that exchange, how can you not see the possible town motivation for me thinking out loud about it?
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DP --
I am and was reacting to this wagon. Saying I'm not is a lie. I asked you to explain yourself...I didn't spam the thread freaking the fuck out because that's not how I play. Saying as well that I haven't been pushing stuff makes me think you haven't really looked at my filter. I made a read on GK on day one and asked people to look, I did push it. I helped push the wagon on BH when it was faltering a little, because I was pretty sure he was scum. I looked into JJD with Marv, attempting not to waste the day when BH was on the block all day. I'm not really sure what you are expecting to see in a game where our day 2 and day 3 lynch targets were effectively locked in right at the beginning of the day.
I needed to talk about set-up to determine who I wanted to lynch. It's that simple. I wanted to fully understand why lynching scum or SK was better/worse for town, because if lynching the SK for example ends the game for town, then I don't want to be sitting there calling for the SK to die.
You have no idea why a townie wants to lynch Marv. I explained some, but again, until I get the time to write a case, it's probably not going to be clear to you. Think I'm wrong all you want, but being wrong doesn't make me scum. I haven't pushed grush at all. He is unpushable, because whether or not he is scum depends on whether or not he lied with his starsenses. Through process of elimination, I'm assuming he lied, but I'm not going to be asking anybody to consider his lynch until its necessary. Such is the way with grush.
If you can't understand why me, thinking marv is scum, and seeing you constantly calling him town without justification would say fuck the town read and just get angry enough to call you scum for shitting up my current game view thats been broken down and reconstructed a number of times, and after all the weird and frustrating shit that town has gone through this game, then I can't help you here. It was irrational because it was a feeling.
The way I've pushed Marv is a legitimate point. It takes a monumental effort in any game for someone of my junior stature to get Marv lynched. Thoughts or a paragraph here and there are not going to do it. Like I said earlier, Marv was a bit of a blindspot for me (in that I didn't go through his filter with a fine-tooth comb) for a bit because of iamp and BH and you saying he was town. That doesn't mean I didn't take a few opportunities to feel him out in the thread, as I see you've quoted. It wasn't until around when I said (night yamato died) that I really thought that Marv was scum. Anyway though, I feel you have legitimate beef here, and if I get lynched for how I pushed Marv it'll be my fault.
I gotta step away for a bit now. I'll be back in an hour or so, but phone posting (argh)
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Marv, its a question of ambivalence. There's been a few points where it really appeared like you didn't care for town. This is not what I expect to see from you..I've been in a few games with you, as well as watched a game you played scum in whe. I was cohost. This is all from memory now without digging.
Day 1 you passed off responsibility for driving the sputnik lynch to iamp, saying something like 'iamp rally the children, they are not listening to me.' It struck me as odd. I don't feel like town marv, seeing he is not being heeded, does this.
You said in the mason qt that 'we need to look out for players like s0lstice.' You didnt feel anything strongly about me either way. To me this says you should be dissecting my every post from that point on. A null read can only be null for so long, having no idea on someone is dangerous. You then demonstrated to me that you werent putting much care in reading my posts by badly misinterpreting something i said to BH. Im talking about the conversation i had with BH about whether he was reading the thread, which you interpreted as me talking about his alignment. Reading a post the wrong way is not scummy by itself, but when its coupled with an assertion that 'we have to watch out for this guy,' it becomes questionable. The post wasnt especially unclear either.
Your behavior around the BH scumslip i already talked. Short version is you acted in a self concious way. Your re-entry in to the thread post slip said nothing about the slip, like it wasn't the most important thing going on at the time. DP had to ask you before you said yay or nay. Also, in the mason QT you said it could be 100% explained by him not reading the thread. Why weren't you in the thread screaming this at the top of your lungs? Here were people making definitive judgements on BHs alignment from the slip alone, and you were content to not correct them.
Also from before, I think its way more likely iamp died because he masoned a scum marv, not that the scum team saw his claim and changed their kill in the minutes they had between that and the deadline. You assert that it was obvious that he was blue. Can you explain how? I don't think I was the only one who didn't think that was the case. Now it could be the case that scum could have just wanted to off a strong town read, but then why not you? If you were so obviously town, I have to believe they would have tried, medics be damned. Youve been killed many times night 1...I just don't see a scum team wifoming themselves out of trying for you.
And iust in general, the scum team has been pretty good so far. We are in disarray, and the blue sniping has been awesome. I can't in good conscious believe that a team consisting of some permutation of jj/grush/vayne/dandel/gk could play this scum game. No offense to them, but I'm not used to feeling so lost and on the brink as town, and I have to believe its because there's a strong leader on the scum team.
Theres a few other instances of casual ambivalence when it comes reading comprehension of people you should have been really concerned with. Dont recall the specific instances as I am sitting here phone typing, but I know I raised my eyebrows.
That's a summary.
As far as others saying you are town, I consider it to be dangerous thinking to believe them without thinking through it myself. BH and company saying you are town only really matters if they are right 100% of the time. I mean, I respect their opinions and play, but I'm not going to let them play for me. If I go through the evidence and see scum, I'm not going to throw away my opinion without a really good explanation to the contrary. I've played with marv and he is town does not qualify.
Your argument with dandel could have happened if you were both scum I think. He replaced in, saw you were on his team, doesn't like you, and decided to troll. Having looked at the argument a number of times, I think it could have happened for any combination of alignments.
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I don't like that your vote counts at all, what a coincidence Vayne!
I honestly think this lynch is between a townie and the SK.
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Yea I do. I can't get past those two posts we were talking about earlier. They scream town to me.
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WoS, DP, are you guys in thread?
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If my choice is between a player I consider to be anti-town and a townie I have to go with the anti-town guy and hope he is scum and not the SK.
##vote goodkarma
Marv, I've taken down and rebuilt reads so many times this game it not hard for older posts like that to get lost in the shuffle. It's been a bewildering game.
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I want to talk about how much this lynch sucks. I feel like I'm voting the SK right now over someone I think is town.
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On May 29 2013 05:33 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 05:32 s0Lstice wrote:
I want to talk about how much this lynch sucks. I feel like I'm voting the SK right now over someone I think is town. Explain to me in detail how JJD is town. And if JJD is town and GK is SK who are the three scum?
Remember that post I made about JarJar clamoring for credit for the BH flip? The conclusion is totally flipped around if BH flips town, which he did. What kind of scum spends all of day 1 attacking a townie and drawing attention to it and patting himself on the back when he KNOWS that the flip will be green?
Also those two posts in particular I quoted are pretty town to me /brokenrecord
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if you (WoS) and DP are town, and I didnt fuck up those reads, then that leaves marv/GK/JJ/grush/vayne. If JJ is town, then the rest are scum.
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EPT
