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/in
This seems like a very fun game.
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Hey, everyone. Glad to see the game has started.
I don't know if we need to create a system for our draft order, or if that's effort that will end up without results. I do know we need to have a plan during the picks. We need to be able to either A) make sure town ends up with roles such as CPR Doctor, America etc. B) make sure that if someone takes it we can determine who it is exactly that ended up with it. We also need to be able to do this without giving away where our important power roles land in the draft order.
Does anyone have any experience with this? If not, is there anyone with any ideas on how we can accomplish this?
I'll be looking into some of the past PYP games to see if I can make a system, but I'd like everyone to contribute.
As mafia's KP is 1, it is also prudent to shut down some of the roles they would take to increase their KP. I think we may also be able to determine which players took KP roles if we do our draft set up correctly.
I'll be checking the thread periodically for the next few hours.
I hope everyone's having a great day, let's get ready to lynch some mafia.
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Okay, I've read up a bit on some of the past games. I think it's best if no one reveals their numbers for the draft phase.
I believe that the best strategy for town is to hope for number conflicts. Given our larger pool of players each conflicting number between town hurts us a little bit, but each conflicting number between town and mafia hurts them a lot.
As far as a power picking strategy goes, I think we need to agree on a couple things, and then assign a few roles.
Please note if you disagree with any of these things.
1. America should not be picked by any town member. I don't think it very strongly benefits town. The only way I think it benefits town is if it is used by a town player to essentially act as a second lynch. I believe that America must announce its nuke in the thread (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). This is my proposal. Either A) we all agree to avoid the role. No town member takes it, thus if it is ever used we will know that a mafia member took it. or B) If someone does pick it they announce themselves right away and we use it as a second lynch. Announcing it after day 1, or using the power to kill someone that the town does not agree on should be seen as that person claiming scum.
I personally prefer option A, but I can't control anyone.
2. Kingmaker should not be picked by any town member. This is another role that does not benefit town nearly as much as mafia. As the game goes on there's more and more chance that you will give mafia an extra kill, and there's no guarantee that if you give a townie the extra lynch that they will lynch a mafia. The same thing goes as with america if this role is picked though, and someone makes you king, announce that you're the king, and go with the majority using it as a second lynch.
I believe it's absolutely imperative to deny these roles:
1. Janitor We can't let mafia get this role, it denies us far too much information, we need to be able to determine who has this role, which means we need to assign it. That way we can make sure the role will never be used, or if it is thatn we know who to lynch/vig immediately.
2. Assassin/CPR doctor We need to block these roles as well, both of these are incredibly strong roles (each giving the mafia a guaranteed 1 KP per cycle)
3. Thief Another really strong mafia role, this could be somewhat useful for town, I guess. But I think it's most important to simply deny mafia the role.
4. Prince of Darkness I'm not sure if this is worth denying, so I'd like opinions on this one. I'm leaning towards attempting to deny it because it has the potential to give mafia A LOT of kills in a row.
Last but not least, if we're assigning roles I think the best way to do it is to assign based on draft position order. This however means we should decide which positions will choose what role today. That way there's no arguments about it tomorrow.
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On April 04 2013 12:44 Shelvocke wrote: Pick what you want when you want. By making a list and saying "no townie pick these", all you do is allow mafia to pick up extremely strong roles at the end of the draft. Trying to deny roles by directly assigning specific numbered spots is even worse due to the sheer number of roles that can steal, copy, or redirect. This isn't even considering the fact that there are too many strong mafia roles to deny all of them.
If everyone agrees not to pick America, when they reveal themselves to use their nuke we will know they're mafia. Unless I'm mistaken about how nukes work, then there is a greater benefit to town by not picking the role in my opinion.
I strongly believe assigning those roles is a requirement to win this game.
There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
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On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote: @Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip.
How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control.
Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions?
Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have?
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On April 04 2013 13:16 yamato77 wrote: There are ways we can play around a role like janitor, but you are right in that town would be better off denying the role completely.
Sharrant, what do you think about what I've posted so far? Do you agree or disagree with how I see the game? I'd rather us talk between ourselves than argue with Mocsta.
To be honest, I actually had a few nitpicky things in your post that I at first I really didn't like but I think I understand better now. Reading it again you seem to be doing a "stream of consciousness" sort of writing, and I think that set off some alarms early and needlessly. Your more recent posts have been much more to my liking.
I'm glad you also see the need to deny roles, however I disagree with your method slightly. I can see how trying to do it based on town reads after the draft order has been revealed could work, but I think that assigning the picks to draft order before it has been revealed would be most effective.
On April 04 2013 13:22 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:19 Keirathi wrote:On April 04 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 13:14 Sharrant wrote:On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote: @Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control. Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions? Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have? "Janitor" Busy always cleaning up after other people's mess. You love your job so much though that you'll even clean up dead bodies. During the Night you may PM me that you want to clean up all the dead bodies in Town. No player's role or alignment will be revealed upon death for that upcoming Day. Since you are cleaning up the bodies however, you will learn the role and alignment of all the bodies you clean up. You can only use this ability once. My interpretation is that after 48 hrs (Day cycle) the real flips are revealed. You're interpretation is wrong (at least with how Janitors normally work). The red part that you quoted means that none of the following Day's flips (aka the night kills) will be revealed AT ALL. Never. Shooting off to lunch. But if that is the case than yes. I think its a good idea to remove from the scum power list.
I'm glad we agree.
On April 04 2013 13:23 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote: There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
There are several other roles that can cause problems for people who roleclaim, and you would do very well to think about that. You also have not noticed one of the most dangerous combinations in this game that prevents plans like the one you have.
I'm interested to hear this combination. I can see many ways that scum would be able to kill a player knowing their role.
Yes, having an extractor AND BloodyCobbler would net them 1 kill per cycle extra. But that's for 2 roles, as opposed to having an assassin and saying "green" every single time and getting 1 kill per cycle extra for only a single role.
Now, there are combinations I haven't mentioned because I didn't want to give anyone ideas, if you're thinking of anything involving the politician, there's a good chance I've thought of that as well, there are ways to stop that. But if you think there's something that is specifically of horrendous consequence for this plan, please do elaborate. If this plan is bad I would like you to change my mind, otherwise I would like to change yours.
I'm going to bed now, if I get bored I might wander back and read more, but that's doubtful.
Good night, everyone. I hope you're all as excited for the draft as I am.
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Good morning, everyone.
I'm glad to see there's so much discussion, but I still believe after reading all of it that we need to coordinate to eliminate a few key roles. Not very many, but there's a few roles that are incredibly anti-town that need to be taken care of.
Let's try and get everyone on the same page here.
Town does not need roles to win the game. They're nice, they're a cool added bonus, but we honestly don't need them. If I had the choice I would rather have every single townie vanilla if it meant mafia were all vanilla and locked at 1 KP. That would be beautiful, and should be an easy win for town. I don't think there's anyone that can disagree with that, that is a severely underpowered set up for scum.
How does this relate to the draft order?
By using the draft order and a proper picking strategy we can effectively move the town towards this position. There's more than one part to this however.
We want as many conflicting draft numbers as possible. This benefits town because the odds are in our favour that town will come out ahead based on random number selection. The most preferrable case being town picks 1-18 and the mafia conflict with 5of those numbers. Obviously this situation is unrealistic as we will have some townies conflict with other townies, but generally the odds are in our favour to come out ahead as long as no one reveals their numbers.
We're done there. I don't think there's anymore that can be said. Random number picks favour town.
So let's move onto the drafting phase. How can we create the most effective town picks, while simultaneously creating the least effective mafia picks?
The most beneficial scenario for town is that every mafia picks a role that town has already chosen. This is highly unlikely, but would be amazing. The least beneficial for town would be townies picking roles that other townies have picked but not the roles mafia did. This is somewhat subjective, but I believe this to be the worst because A) mafia get all their roles B) town does not have information on what those roles are or where in the draft they were chosen. There are other bad scenarios but I think this takes the cake.
So how do we move away from the second scenario and move towards the first?
First we need to determine the key roles that are too strong for mafia to get at any point. I believe them to be Thief, PoD, Inventor and Janitor. If everyone can agree I would have slots 1-4 on the draft order pick those powers. Why those powers specifically? Because they are all INCREDIBLY anti-town, and are all visible powers. What I mean by visible powers is that we will know when they have been activated either by the night going into a second night, or the kills all being vanished etc. Then we know to lynch into the player that has that role.
If town gets one of these roles (except Inventor/thief): Don't use it ever. I know you wanted some super special ultra role, but you're doing more for the town this way.
If town gets inventor: Be as pro town as you possibly can be, this is a great role for town to have. We should see lots of bullet proof vests, and similar defensive or investigative items coming out from you.
If town gets thief: Sit on it. There's a chance that it may become important later on, but it shouldn't be used early game.
If mafia get any of these roles: We'll know exactly which one has the role, so they cannot use it.If we see the power, we lynch into them. So they're effectively VTs except for in one scenario which I will talk about later.
So by assigning those 4 roles we have one result: We force a pro town inventor (if mafia oriented inventions come out we know who to lynch), we eliminate both PoD AND Janitor, and possibly cause thief to become a pro town role. And the kicker of this, is that if mafia is one of the top 4 spots we force them to act as a vanilla scum.
Should we have a plan after those roles?
I don't think so. I think everyone picking what they want after that point is the best solution for town. This will cause the most conflicts with mafia, and as town should generally be higher in the draft order we will have more conflicts for roles with mafia. Everyone past that point should excercise good judgement on which roles they think they should either attempt to get for town, or to deny mafia. Pick something you can play well.
Cautions and problems:
Problem: Leaving a scum alive with PoD means they can just wait until LyLo or MyLo to activate their power and it will endgame town in most situations.
Solution: We should not put the people with these roles above reproach. Everyone in the picking order (1-4) should be examined just as thoroughly as everyone else. I don't think a policy lynch on the power holder is required, we should be able to decide going into a scenario like that if they've been acting pro-town or not. There's also a high possibility of the player being killed with so much KP likely flying around.
Problem: Role Swapper and Copy Cat stealing one of the 1-4 roles
I don't have an immediate solution to this problem, however copy cat would require them to kill one of those people and use a dayvig right away to steal the role. So they have to waste a kill based on draft order rather than player involvement. They may have to kill the scummiest looking townie to get a role, they may have to kill the towniest townie. Those are the worst and best case scenarios. Role Swapper might be one to look into about halfway down the draft order if someone is confident enough playing as a likely vanilla townie. That would either deny the role, or let us know it was one of the top x picks.
At best this plan will deny mafia roles and make them easier to track when we start having flips and claims to back up our information, and quite likely catch them in a lie or display them as having picked an anti-town power later down in the drafting order to be able to get one of the 1-4 roles.
At worst this makes mafia have to put in a time commitment to avoid the plan, and denies them 2 out of the 4 roles. I think that's a pretty good worst case scenario. We still deny them half the roles, and we make those roles easier to track because later on we'll be able to determine via draft order and flips where it was likely that copycat and role swapper were chosen.
I'm hoping this clarifies my intentions with the plan, as I don't think I properly explained it before.
I willspend a few minutes reviewing all that has been posted while I was writing this, please ask anyone questions, or give dissenting opinions. I want this plan to be good enough that everyon will follow it. That means if there's a flaw I need to know it now so we can improve it. I'd like everyone to be on board with this idea, or at least enough of us that we can follow through with the first 4 picks.
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On April 04 2013 23:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 23:18 Caller wrote:On April 04 2013 23:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Is there an ingame reason for it? do i need a reason? i just wanna kill him. Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want.
This is a very good point, but with something like Janitor or PoD it doesn't make much sense (unless the scum will be able to make it multi use. If they give it to a player lower down the list and it is used, we lynch the higher up player and see that he had a different role. Now they have used the 1 shot power AND lost a scum that had his own power. I think this only applies if we're going after something like assassin or CPR doctor, but I like the check regardless. If you have read my plan, how would you feel about using role 5 or 6 (or even both) to RNG and determine if the roles were taken as theys hould be?
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On April 04 2013 23:51 austinmcc wrote: Sharrant, I agree with most of the roles you find powerful (i skipped thief in my list but it should be added with swapper and copy cat).
Inventor was a consideration of mine, but the fact that you have to give your inventions to other players weakens it somewhat. Possible that mafia end up implicating themselves slightly if they're only giving inventions to each other, and each player can only receive inventions once. Plus all inventions have to be one-shot, and you can't re-invent the same thing. There are enough restrictions that it limits the ability for the role to cause serious damage.
As to denying roles/RNGing later down the list, I think it's a good idea if we can get people to agree on a plan of denial. The fact that mafia has a single factional KP is very important, especially in a game where we could also have a lot of protective roles. They NEED roles to win this, town doesn't. Time favors town, especially in a game where people can be outed based on what they pick, how they use, detective checks, etc. etc. I don't like the idea of having someone too far down the list RNG. Mafia is going to want x role or y role. The further down the list the RNG happens, the higher the chance that: (1) multiple mafioso are above the RNGer, and can pull shennanies; (2) mafia can just risk the RNG, because the chance that RNG steals the role they want to preserve are lower (50% chance at pick 3 last game, 20% chance at pick 6).
Okay, so striking Inventor off the list I think thief is more powerful than copycat or roleswapper by far.
So we could go 1. PoD 2. Janitor 3. Thief
Would you want the RNG on 4, or move it down? I'm unsure about this myself because I see the benefits of both. My gut tells me to leave it on 4 though, and introduce the least confusion. That leaves them a 33% chance to be able to get away with stealing one of the 3 roles we want to deny and only if they end up in one of the top 3 draft spots. It's slightly different if 4 is mafia as well, but I think that would become evident after a period of time. I believe usage of their powers at that point would reveal 2 mafia or at least be a big clue pointing towards them.
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On April 05 2013 00:02 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 23:44 deconduo wrote: Morning all, things seem to have gotten heated pretty quickly. I've just skimmed the thread so far but I'm going to jump in with my opinion on the draft.
Setting predefined picks for the draft order tends to work out well for town. In fact it is a large reason for mafia getting caught out in the last two PYP games I played. However it is massively un-fun, and I feel goes against the spirit of the game. Its also the reason I got rid of the whole drafting phase in the PTP games I hosted.
If the majority want to go along with a pre-defined pick order, I'll co-operate. But given that there are almost three times more roles than players, why not have a free for all and play the game like its supposed to be played? I've specifically addressed this point before, but I will reiterate. You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? oh god dont mention the host as a way of making your point. Please dont. Austin, arent the mafia favoured roles instantly killed when they are outed anyway, because they chose that role = they are mafia? Like we dont need to say 'OH YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AT THE START. SCUM' Also arent there only like 4-5 roles that everyone knows that are best for scum? I just dont see how this discussion is a useful way to spend our time
And what, pray tell, is a more important way to spend our time at this very moment? What would you rather be discussing?
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On April 05 2013 00:05 austinmcc wrote: Prince of Darkness is another role that I don't think is as powerful as looks. It's an extra night cycle, which COULD be devastating in large games where mafia has 3 KP or so, but here they just have 1 and their powers.
It's a one-shot skip-a-day. It's pardoner but without the information from the day. Because of their limited KP, I don't think it' ALL that strong as it gives all DTs a second check, medics will still be active, etc. etc. I don't think the setup makes it stronger than a multi-vig, when their real concern is most likely to be lack of KP.
I don't want to talk more about RNG right at this moment. Big game, want to see more discussion and thoughts from others before we go deeper with that.
If mafia get PoD and BC and a vigilante (3 roles total) then on N1 they would be able to kill 6 people potentially. That's why I'm worried about it. The other point is that it is obvious when used. The more I think about it, I come back to PoD and Janitor not needing the RNG check if we know where they are on the list. Perhaps top 5 and go 1. PoD 2. Janitor 3. CPR 4. Asassin with 5 RNGin between 3 and 4. This does leave thief open though, but perhaps someone down the line could check it, I'm not sure. That thought is a little iffy, but I think it lets us cover a lot of ground. Plus assassin can be good as a town role as if they try and kill mafia they cannot accidentally kill a townie.
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On April 05 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote: this whole discussion is stupid until we get the drafting list btw
What is the point of this post as a town member? I actually can't think of a reason to post this. Please enlighten me as to why this was stupid.
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On April 05 2013 08:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Just caught up with the thread and it's filled with, well, filler. Can't say I've grown much wiser alignment wise other than Oats giving me town vibes simply for all the prodding in everything. With all these plans of picking or not picking it seems people have forgotten about the RNG option for picking which I still believe is the strongest as it puts scum at a big risk of becoming VT if they go for the strong roles whilst still allowing said town players to potentially pick a strong blue role. It covers both flanks.
I'm still waffling about the RNG option. On the one hand I do like how it can cover more bases, but it loses out to me because there's no accountability. If the people at the top RNG between a few roles, yes it leaves options that the scum can end up with vanilla, but if one of the people expected to RNG is a mafia member then the mafia just got two power roles. (assuming we do each person RNG's between 2 roles and have the top 4 players do that. It would cover 8 roles, but potentially give the mafia 2 freeish roles.
If we do it and have 4 people RNG between 8 or more roles, then we have the possibility of town overlapping in the top picks, but it's more risky for the scum if they have someone in the top 4.
I just don't see it being as effective as having the top 3 people pick strong, and visible power roles such as PoD.
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You seem very defensive, Keirathi. Incredibly defensive. You have 11ish posts all defending yourself and we haven't even reached day 1 yet.
I think the most important post you've made was this one
On April 06 2013 05:07 Keirathi wrote: And an aside:
It was a policy to police ONE role (well maybe 2...depends on how Russia works). A role with which no townie SHOULD be shooting anyways.
Why are you so adamantly against that? It doesn't make sense, unless you're posturing to protect yourself/someone who is planning to pick America.
That's a pretty sly attempt at calling someone scum without actually going anywhere near calling him scum.
Right now I have you as a scum read, but I want to hear more from you because I've spent a while debating whether I'm forcing the case in my head.
You seemed all over the place during the pick/deny discussion during the draft number pick phase, primarily attacking plans rather than offering criticism, and in general not following a single train of thought. You got incredibly defensive once Caller mentioned you as scum (seriously, 11 posts about it in approximately 4 hours worth of time).
You made that snipey comment quoted above, and overall your play feels sterile. You don't feel engaged in the conversation, you don't read like town Keirathi. You read like the Keirathi in GSL Open, and in This Town.
What you do not read like is the Keirathi in Red Team or Themed.
##FoS: Keirathi
If I'm wrong, prove it to me, but right now I want you to be the first one to hang.
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@Geript
Can you please explain exactly what it is that made you decide that Mocsta is 100% town. Please explain as clearly as possible, and if you can link to evidence of this from another game that would be appreciated.
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On April 07 2013 04:27 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever. Kill me then. I can't hunt scum while not a single person in the entire game is taking me seriously.
##Vote: RestrainingOrder
Hi, Viscera. I'm pretty much null on your actions, so I want you to help me. Now, the reason I'm null on you is because I know I can't read you. Last game we played I thought I had a slam dunk case on you, and you were town.
Now I might be reaching with this, but I want you to help me talk about Keirathi. See, just a short while ago there was talk about why Keirathi was scum, I think there're some really valid points in there. And I think a few others saw it too, but then suddenly the town was dragged off of this and into a spammy little brawl focused on antogonizing you and painting you as scum. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're not, but the way the thread has turned suggests to me you're not.
This feels more to me like you're getting attacked the same way that caused Marvellosity to explode when he was town in a recent game. So I want you to talk to me about Keirathi, who after being called out has dissapeared after the cases on him, and I just want your opinion on Rayne because frankly I'm not quite sure how to read him.
Do you think this could be mafia Keirathi's team trying to drag the town away from him after he got caught by causing a spammy mess on day 1? Do you think this is more likely town getting in an argument that is not indicative of Keirathi's alignment? And then your opinion on Keirathi himself and Rayne would be great., thank you.
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On April 07 2013 06:40 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:36 geript wrote:On April 07 2013 06:35 Ghor wrote: Can everyone put the numbers he sent to the hosts into his signature so I can rebuild the list without digging for needles in the haystack? There is no need for you to keep them secret if you are town.
Stop this. The time for doing this is over. There is no reason to suspect people solely based off of the numbers they supposedly picked. Don't waste anyone's time with bull like that. No, two scum won't pick the same numbers ever. It's valuable information. Unless you can give rational explanation you have no argument and only want to keep us in the dark.
Vivax, you can find examples in the thread of scum doing this. I believe it was the previous PYP where 3 scum all picked the same numbers for the exact reason you have stated now.
I believe numbers are important to look at, but to state that two scum will not pick the same numbers in demonstrably wrong. You have to look at it case by case. You have to look at what was attained by picking the numbers, in your eyes they are completely above suspicion, thus picking the same numbers has obvious value entirely unrelated to the role selection.
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Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one.
+ Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind.
##Unvote: Keirathi
Regarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase.
On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks.
Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible.
On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues.
Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan.
On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it.
Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least.
On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it.
He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process.
As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie.
I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who.
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@Gonzaw
I think the best two targets tonight are Sinani and Sn0man. At this point neither of them are seeming like they will be here to allow us to actually read them. I'd prefer a shot on Sinani over Sn0man for two reasons.
A) I'm a little concerned about Sn0man being shot if he's a townie with a strong power role, or a townie with a strong denial role, hell there's even a bit of concern if he's a mafia with a strong role. I find it much more likely for Mafia to have the copycat power than the town would, meaning they could potentially receive a strong role.
B) Sinani looks pretty scummy for the small amount that he has posted.
On April 08 2013 06:21 sinani206 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:18 gonzaw wrote:Hmm, my Artanis lynch seems to have quite a bit of resistance. Interesting (not to say those resisting are scum though. I have some slight town reads on some resisting it, which makes it even more "interesting"). So let's try something different: I have the ability to kill someone this D1So, get to it town. Who should I kill? More importantly, for certain players (snoman, etc), convince me why I shouldn't just kill you right now. I hope EVERYBODY tells me in detail who they want me to kill, why, how that affects their lynch candidate, or if they want me to keep my KP for later and not use it. This is your chance to get your SCUMREAD KILLED 100%, if you are good at convincing both me and town (but mostly me); so this is your chance to step up your game and actively try to get your scumread killed (no hiding behind "parking your vote" or shit like that) "But gonzaw, why haven't you killed Artanis yet?"Because I'm not an idiot. I prefer some discussion on these kind of players. If someone is active or semi-active and I find him suspicious or even as scum, it's more important to see how other people react, see town sentiment on that guy, and at worst be convinced against killing him if he's somehow town, plus creating discussion and the like. Also apparently people are not convinced by my case. I think killing him D1 without any feedback from town would have been a bad idea in retrospect, even if he flipped scum I may or may not kill him this D1. I still prefer him for lynch instead. So snoman, Shevlocke, RO, maybe rayn/VE/Caller/Palmar/Sharrant/etc. Show me this D1 why I shouldn't just kill you right now. Also of course post who you want killed, or if you don't want me to kill anybody just yet. Failing to do so may result in a little symptom....called being shot/nuked through your head "But gonzaw, why complain about others vigging someone, if you could kill them yourself?"Because I'm not an idiot I want Snoman, etc to make a stance and have a chance to prove to us they are town and scumhunt before just blindly killing them. I hoped they'd do something by now but that failed. Hopefully this doesn't. "But gonzaw, why claim now?I reread the roles and I don't see anything that can "fuck up" with a day KP (other than maybe "Showtime!", but that can fuck us at any time, and (of course), a day vig/Assassin used on me) Plus I feel there's not much going on. Many people oppose my Artanis case, so that's going nowhere. People are suspicious of some other players, but it just keeps it there, specially if those players are not doing anything else currently or maybe not even show up. I feel this D1 is kind of stagnated, and I don't like it. I mean there are like 9 different people having votes on them right now, there's no consolidation, both in votes and in thread sentiment. Some people have even parked their vote on some random guys (yamato on Palmar, Sharrant on Keirathi) and they seem to keep it there. Some people are just coasting through not doing shit and feeling no pressure. I think it may be time to change that. I tried changing that up with the Artanis case, but it seems it hasn't worked. Let's see if this changes anything. + Show Spoiler +Also if someone shoots me right now or something insta-lynch him please Bill Murray please.
On April 08 2013 06:43 sinani206 wrote: I haven't played with him before, so I don't know his meta, but he's pretty scummy imo.
On April 08 2013 06:46 sinani206 wrote: gonzaw are you going to claim exactly what your role is?
These quotes especially feels out of place. He picks a really safe target for the shot, but then doesn't bother to push a case at all, AND takes a step back as he pushes his name forward. He's already trying to back away from the shot even as he's proposing it. He clearly doesn't want to push the shot, he clearly does not want to be assosciated with it, but he does want it to happen.
He also immediately fishes for your role even though you've revealed that you have at least 1 KP usable during the day. The only reason I see for asking this is because he's on the scum team, and either he or one of his team mates is either BC or the assassin, and is hoping to take a shot on you either before or after you take your shot depending on who you would kill.
That's why I'd feel safe in a shot on Sinani.
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@StrongandBig Hi!
I'll try and give you a sort of stream of consciousness on this one, and hopefully that will actually help me figure out where I stand on him. I've read through his filter a few times and I always notice things that send me in opposite directions on his alignment.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:Okay duders, raid night is over. Going for a quick re-read of the past half day after I post this since I've been tabbing out to catch what I could during down time. First impressions: I saw that Oats is/was under some suspicion (just going from memory, don't recall if it was talked out or not) but Oats is Oats; he's a bit all over the place but I don't see the same intent to shut things down that someone mentioned earlier. He was just as loud and all-over in RED. Null still. RO seems to want to be more helpful than I remember him being as scum in LX, not feeling what you guys that are suspicious of him are feeling there, either. Got my eye on Rayn at the moment. His style was spammy but usually constructive (at least in telling us what he was thinking) and I've got none of that after the first couple pages of his filter. Ten one-liners in a row or something, doesn't match up to his standard attacking pattern from RED. The attacks there were thought-out, here they mostly look like casual accusations perhaps fishing for reactions? The only points he has going for him is that he's absolutely confused about what is going on regarding the draft process: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Should we have our roles by now? Rayn, if you are serious about RO being scum then lay if out for me in one clean concise post, and if you are not, who are you most suspicious of right now? Or are you just drunk again?
Other stuff: Most of the chat was about planning how to set up the top spots to get roles protected, is that still a thing? I'm spot 2 somehow, and I was thinking about taking America because America, fuck yeah! Is that going to make me a Pariah or something? Girls just wanna have fun, you know? I'll use it as a second lynch like was suggested yesterday or I can just sit on it if you guys are paranoid about it. Going back for that re-read and making some coffee. See you in a bit when I'm finished with that. PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you!
This post felt very airy, it certainly felt to me like a post that was primarily summation. There are some good questions in there, but there's no hard stances. The closest he comes to that is that he says he's got his eye on Rayn, but then never specifically says he was scummy. Points out he doesn't give fit his previous town meta, but then he gives him an out on it anyways saying that he might be fishing for reactions.
I actually noticed something that really has me leaning towards scum on him now. He makes 2 posts specifically stating for people not to spam, and has several posts insulting BM for making small spammy posts with no content. I read this as townie when I first skimmed through his filter, but looking at it again There's something very wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:.
PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing.
Look at his posts:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 09:59 Restraining Order wrote:In fact, I'm just going to quote myself on this matter. On April 05 2013 11:30 Restraining Order wrote: Pick assassin and try to kill me with please.
That way I don't actually die to your stupidity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll stop reading your posts henceforth. Wouldn't be a problem if you'd actually think I'm mafia I'll indulge your soft town claim for a moment and simply ask you why your list contains 9 people. If you can justify all 9 in some way at least we'll know whether or not you're talking the breeze with these myriad suspicions. On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. On April 06 2013 10:08 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:06 Restraining Order wrote:On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. No, it's 9. I have no idea where VE got the Caller thing from, and it's sad you just take his word. If I've misread it please tell me how. It won't be the first time. I spent like 24 hours in Fruity misreading every little thing so just straighten me out instead of spitting in my face, thx. On April 06 2013 10:09 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually I misread the quote-pyramid. He was saying he wanted to lynch Kier when I thought he was replying to Caller. My mistake. .... On April 06 2013 11:28 ObviousOne wrote: WTF are all these random ass reads BM? Is this what you always do? On April 06 2013 11:38 ObviousOne wrote:RIGHT ABOUT WHAT PLEASE TYPE MORE JESUS FUCK On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? On April 06 2013 13:52 ObviousOne wrote:... not sure what to make of this but way to leave yourself open to accusations of a scum slip. Wow that's really bad looking. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:37 geript wrote:I figured out why I don't like the case on RestrainingOrder at all. In The Game, I got to watch both Bugs and Kita push absolute bullshit towards town's direct. It was well crafted bullshit, but bullshit none the less. VE's case is an exact example of this type of thing for a few reasons: 1. The townread/lynch stuff + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: So RO wants to lynch inside [Caller, Palmar, Decon, VE, Kierathi, Artanis, austin, OO, Vivax, sn0] before D1 starts. That's cool I guess, but some of those names sound familiar. Where have I seen those names before? ... Oh that's right. In that OTHER post where he made a list and said "4/5 are townies", he wants to lynch 3/5 of them. This is the exact type of thing that we as scum would jump on. Any little thing that we could catch where town fucked up, changed reads, etc. It's perfect to attack because it seems so simple and plausible. Town in general are not going to be filtering themselves constantly to see their positions, know where they stood on exact people, etc. Whereas as scum, we were quite often referencing ourselves to see what stances were plausible for us to take. I can't wholly ignore the possibility that RO may just be lazy scum, hell he lurked most of LX until his teammate shot him. However, it's stupid to think that this early on that scum would make a slip this big. It's far more likely to be bad/stupid town. This isn't particularly scummy. On April 06 2013 13:57 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:54 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote:@ArtanisXpI would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] +On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote: Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: [red]Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play?
Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. On April 05 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote: Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you. town are more likely to flip flop than mafia On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:26 Bill Murray wrote: meta Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? AustinMCC at this point is betraying his blue meta as a lurker that I've seen He had a plan that would help the mafia, too, in regards to town picking from the mafia role list It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the mafia have taken from more "town" roles than "mafia" ones By that token, I don't expect there is a Godfather So do you know who is mafia or are you saying AustinMCC is a town read of yours?
ALL of those posts were one after another. They're spread out over 4 hours, but it's 11 posts that are almost entirely one liners, some without even any text. Yet he was saying don't spam, make good quality posts. Why wasn't he doing that too?
+ Show Spoiler +On April 08 2013 08:24 ObviousOne wrote: Also sorry to dine and dash but my cousin wants to hang out, back in a few hours if I manage to be wakeful when I get home.
Oh, gotta vote too. On April 08 2013 09:58 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:54 Palmar wrote: I think it's mafia defending me, I look too scummy for townies to defend me.
why is there no machine gun role that can kill like 8 people on day 1, I'd have liked that.
Also there really is not enough killing this game. Bored Walk Empire Mafiyawn: Pull Your Pud =[ On April 08 2013 10:25 ObviousOne wrote: Undertaker 21-0 GG no RE On April 08 2013 10:31 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:30 strongandbig wrote:On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. hi sharrant i don't think you are right in interpreting those posts as townie, those are things scum could do as well - both because setup discussion is always fertile ground for scum to grow the rare towncred-flower, and because it was (or at least, it seemed to me) clear that this town was too fractious for a real plan to come together. that said i like that you are taking this seriously and giving real thought to what you're saying it seems like you haven't been commenting much on stuff since the end of the setup phase but that may be because you play more like i did when i was a new player, with a lot of full sentences and capitalization and well-thought-out posts so how about lets talk about a player? I randomly chose obviousone. i wrote up a few sentences about his post about artanis, how about you do the same and then we can both post ours after i finish my next dota game? Commercial break. Come at me bro. On April 08 2013 10:46 ObviousOne wrote: Mocsta. I love you dearly. Please make paragraphs.
Or
I'll
Do
This
Just
To
Explain
Why
It's
Annoying
And
Difficult
To
Read. On April 08 2013 10:52 ObviousOne wrote: @Mocsta
<3 never change
Look at all the spam there. And the kicker,
On April 08 2013 10:28 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:24 Mocsta wrote: Gonzaw Unrelated question.
Do you think I spamming up the thread?
I am asking because my last couple posts have all been big text walls; and not sure if Im getting my message across succinctly at the moment.
Who cares at this point. Give the lurkers a shit load of posts to read when they get back. Let them cry. Let them complain. They will sheep anyway. Your question wouldn't even be relevant if everyone was participating. Be the Mocsta we know and love. Fuck the haters.
Straight up saying to spam. Call it a joke, or whatever, but that kind of conflicting mindset isn't townie.
##vote: ObviousOne
You can't stay in line with your own thinking at all, I think that's because you're scum.
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On April 08 2013 11:23 gonzaw wrote: lol at that 2-way bandwagon on OO
That timing is actually kind of amazing. Okay, so you're not convinced on Sinani, you just got two cases to read about Obvious, though I'll be honest I'd rather have him as a lynch. But I want to hear your thoughts on him now.
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On April 08 2013 11:28 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, have nothing to say about you guys' cases. Let's see what happens I'll say Obvious started to rub me the "right" way, with the way he went analyzing Artanis, to his conclusion (the right one....I hope), and some stuff he said. He was indeed fluffy and shit early in the game though.
The timing is indeed hilarious though.
I don't think you can get a much lazier analysis that the one on Artanis. He glosses over the fact that there are things he's doing in this game that directly fall into such as the fact that he has done complete 180's in this game when presented with new information, and was engaged and open to being in the spotlight. Those are some of his first points of meta in the town game, he hit all of those during our day 0 discussion. No, he did not become the centre of attention, but he kept calling people back to his posts, and discussing over people's plans.
He claims he was dismissive of other's plans, and never really pushed his own but neither of those statements are true. This is a lazy, lazy case.
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On April 08 2013 11:32 Mocsta wrote: Wait a second here.
You guys are defying a very sound scum lynch in Artanis[Xp]
To vote OO under the following pretense: (1) Didn't like an item of a meta-read, which was an extension to an already sound case. (2) You think he makes summary posts; when you yourself did the same thing regarding Sinani/Sn0Man prior? (3) You think he spams; which is contradictory because he calls out ppl for spamming.
In regards to (3).. whilst that pisses me off.. the guy is a kid (I assume). And since when is spam indicative of alignment? OO was caught easily in hydra, because of his attempts to scum hunt. I dont see how (2) / (3) go anywhere close to finding applicable reasoning to call someone a scum read, in particular over Artanis[Xp]
As for (1). thats a matter of personal opinion, and I cant hold that against Caller. Im curious as the inference from his post is that he thinks Artanis is town. And that his vote was a "trap" of sorts.
I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time this game where Caller has backed out of actions by calling it a "trap".
Mocsta, there's a difference between a summary and writing out a case when asked. Gonzaw asked to be convinced who was the best shot, so I wrote a case, yes most of it has been mentioned before. I wanted him to know exactly where I stood on the matter, so he can see what I believe to be the best shot, and hopefully that will convince him to take that shot. That means giving opinions, and stating thoughts and thought processes.
What ObviousOne did is a give a summaration of events. "This happened, this happened, this happened, how do you guys feel about those things that happened?" He did not put give his opinions, or thoughts on any of the events that happened. Just stated that they happened.
I don't see how you think 3 is null. If he finds spam to be so anti-town, why is he spamming? To me he looks like someone is caught, and is now going to make as big of a mess as possible.
On April 08 2013 11:34 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:25 Sharrant wrote:On April 08 2013 11:23 gonzaw wrote: lol at that 2-way bandwagon on OO That timing is actually kind of amazing. Okay, so you're not convinced on Sinani, you just got two cases to read about Obvious, though I'll be honest I'd rather have him as a lynch. But I want to hear your thoughts on him now. Sharrant, im still waiting for a response to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=76#1502Prob wasnt clear, because I wrote Mr.Rant
The answer to that is right above. Gonzaw wanted a case on who best to shoot, I read as much as I could about Sinani and the cases made against him, and I wrote what I believe to be the reasons he is the best shot. I'm not claiming all the points as my own, but they were the points that others had come up with that I agreed with. That's just the format I thought would have the best chance of convincing him.
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Someone asked for links to my previous games before:
NMMXXVII (Newbie) Town Mason, killed N2 Filter
NMMIV (Normal) Vanilla Town, killed N2 Filter
I have no scum games.
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I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion.
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On April 08 2013 12:46 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. Day-Vig requires something typed into thread. The thing is.. so many roles have day vig america russia dayvig jack i dunno. i find it unlikely the assassin was willing to risk getting the role wrong.. (cos that will make the power void) i might look through gonzaw filter for crumb. because right now.. i suspect NRA is much higher the question then becomes.. who did he try to kill... artanis or VE
Are you 100% sure that Day vigs have to claim their shot in the thread?
Do dayvigs have to claim in the thread?
Please be around the thread for the next couple minutes, Mocsta, it's very important to me.
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On April 08 2013 12:50 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 12:49 Sharrant wrote:On April 08 2013 12:46 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. Day-Vig requires something typed into thread. The thing is.. so many roles have day vig america russia dayvig jack i dunno. i find it unlikely the assassin was willing to risk getting the role wrong.. (cos that will make the power void) i might look through gonzaw filter for crumb. because right now.. i suspect NRA is much higher the question then becomes.. who did he try to kill... artanis or VE Are you 100% sure that Day vigs have to claim their shot in the thread? Do dayvigs have to claim in the thread?Please be around the thread for the next couple minutes, Mocsta, it's very important to me. They do. It says so in the OP. Show nested quote +During the day you may type ##Kill: Player in the thread. That player is going to die and the day goes on. You can only shoot once.
Awesome, you're the best Keirathi.
Okay, so, now we have to have a debate. Is Mocsta mafia?
Here's why: On April 08 2013 12:46 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. Day-Vig requires something typed into thread. The thing is.. so many roles have day vig america russia dayvig jack i dunno. i find it unlikely the assassin was willing to risk getting the role wrong.. (cos that will make the power void) i might look through gonzaw filter for crumb. because right now.. i suspect NRA is much higher the question then becomes.. who did he try to kill... artanis or VE
I don't want to make a rash judgement, but I can see huge mafia motivation by this post, and a big possible slip that gives it away.
He is not using logic. He is trying to make us think that Gonzaw used his power and was killed by NRA, but there is absolutely no chance that Gonzaw was killed by NRA.
He states that it can't have been a dayvig that killed Gonzaw because no one wrote it in the thread. So how could Gonzaw have day vigi'ed the NRA member WITHOUT TYPING IT IN THE THREAD? It's not possible that he was killed when he attacked someone, the only possible way he was killed is by the Assassin.
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On April 08 2013 12:55 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 12:49 Sharrant wrote:On April 08 2013 12:46 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. Day-Vig requires something typed into thread. The thing is.. so many roles have day vig america russia dayvig jack i dunno. i find it unlikely the assassin was willing to risk getting the role wrong.. (cos that will make the power void) i might look through gonzaw filter for crumb. because right now.. i suspect NRA is much higher the question then becomes.. who did he try to kill... artanis or VE Are you 100% sure that Day vigs have to claim their shot in the thread? Do dayvigs have to claim in the thread?Please be around the thread for the next couple minutes, Mocsta, it's very important to me. Im here hunny, and changed my mind. Its assassin. Imm sure gonzaw woulda told us who he was hitting anyways (if NRA)
That's twice you've forgotten he actually would have had to write it into the thread, even though you mentioned it just a few minutes ago on the opposite side of the argument.
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On April 08 2013 12:54 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. Yeah im not getting that. Closest I could find was: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=76#1518Thing is, he describes the KP as one-shot. Which reduces role to Day-Vig/Jack. He was also commenting freely about town vigging at night; as if he knew town had night kp (instead of assume). I think you're right; scum if role hunting, could have surmised with enough confidence gonzaw was jack. So assassin in play; i suggest no more roleclaims. As we dont know if BC is in play too. I suspect only Geript is a potential kill then, as he has rolecliamed.
This is the post where I knew with 100% certainty that he was the Jack. Scum should've known right then too. He's confident he can save his shot for tomorrow even having already said he could day vig. If I were in his position I'd be 100% sure that I don't live to see tomorrow. He's 100% confident that the town has at least 1 night vig shot. Jack is the only KP role that would let him live the night, and let him day vig. It was the only thing that fit how he was playing.
On April 08 2013 11:12 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:06 yamato77 wrote: Gonzaw, what do you think about killing sinani? Hmm, not that convinced right now. If he's town that'd be better than a misslynch though.... ...but if that's what should happen, it'd be better to let him live until D2 at least...and maybe shoot him there I won't shoot anybody that hasn't had a chance to "redeem" themselves yet. Sno being so damn awful could be tied to IRL stuff. I mean, he hasn't even voted yet, he may even get replaced/modkill. BC was seeking a replacement in the "Player Replacement" thread, and so far it seems Snoman is the one fitting that bill. He damn sure looks scummy though, but I'd wait until he shows up to do any shit and analyze what he does, or for his replacement to get here and analyze what he does (knowing that his predecessor was scummy as fuck) We can just vig him at night, either he if he just comes here to avoid modkill and does shit all, or his replacement if he gets replaced. I can save my day KP to D2, and there shoot guys that don't do shit. Seems the ability is more useful that way. I hate scummy guys replacing though Something like that game can happen, where Ver was scum, got replaced, and his replacement acted in a way that made him survive until end-game or something. That sucks.
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On April 08 2013 13:04 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:03 Keirathi wrote: Oh hmm. I guess you are right Sharrant. It specifically says that Jack skills are bound by the same rules as its regular counterparts.
I honestly hadn't thought about it, and assumed that Jack sent in day kills silently, since his night vig kills would be silent. Keirathi, pls comment on my reversal of sharrant, where he knew that the assassin was the logical choice. Yet didnt even know how day-vig worked etc.
I feel like you're trying to put suspicion on me, there's a reason I asked in the thread if day vig had to claim his shot. I was unaware of that restriction so thought dayvig could have been in play, but you said it couldn't have been because of the claim. So when Keirathi showed you were indeed correct, it showed that there was only one possible way he could have died, and you had enough information to know that too but you came to the wrong conclusion. Perhaps it was an earnest oversight on your part, but you should have known immediately.
The fact you had referenced it so recently but failed to take it into consideration is suspicious. That you're trying to turn this around on me like that makes it doubly so to me.
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On April 08 2013 13:11 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:03 Sharrant wrote:This is the post where I knew with 100% certainty that he was the Jack. Scum should've known right then too. He's confident he can save his shot for tomorrow even having already said he could day vig. If I were in his position I'd be 100% sure that I don't live to see tomorrow. He's 100% confident that the town has at least 1 night vig shot. Jack is the only KP role that would let him live the night, and let him day vig. It was the only thing that fit how he was playing. On April 08 2013 11:12 gonzaw wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 08 2013 11:06 yamato77 wrote: Gonzaw, what do you think about killing sinani? Hmm, not that convinced right now. If he's town that'd be better than a misslynch though.... ...but if that's what should happen, it'd be better to let him live until D2 at least...and maybe shoot him there I won't shoot anybody that hasn't had a chance to "redeem" themselves yet. Sno being so damn awful could be tied to IRL stuff. I mean, he hasn't even voted yet, he may even get replaced/modkill. BC was seeking a replacement in the "Player Replacement" thread, and so far it seems Snoman is the one fitting that bill. He damn sure looks scummy though, but I'd wait until he shows up to do any shit and analyze what he does, or for his replacement to get here and analyze what he does (knowing that his predecessor was scummy as fuck) We can just vig him at night, either he if he just comes here to avoid modkill and does shit all, or his replacement if he gets replaced. I can save my day KP to D2, and there shoot guys that don't do shit. Seems the ability is more useful that way. I hate scummy guys replacing though Something like that game can happen, where Ver was scum, got replaced, and his replacement acted in a way that made him survive until end-game or something. That sucks. Yeah, well the confidence about surviving night is an inference rather than direct read. Its more the certainty of town night KP that clarifies him as jack > day-vig. Either way; i know not all town read and look for the same things.. But, that you could recall this post so quickly post-hoc gonzaw death; makes me curious. At the same time, i dont think scum would be trying to get involved in identifying the kill as assassin in play so quickly. Both of us made fallacious comments regarding the matter though; you on the day-vig requirements ; me with the jack jay-vig requirements. All in all: I think this exchange firms up my read on you.
What is my fallacious comment on day vig requirements?
On April 08 2013 13:13 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 13:03 Keirathi wrote: Oh hmm. I guess you are right Sharrant. It specifically says that Jack skills are bound by the same rules as its regular counterparts.
I honestly hadn't thought about it, and assumed that Jack sent in day kills silently, since his night vig kills would be silent. Keirathi, pls comment on my reversal of sharrant, where he knew that the assassin was the logical choice. Yet didnt even know how day-vig worked etc. I admit it's weird. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:10 Sharrant wrote:On April 08 2013 13:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 13:03 Keirathi wrote: Oh hmm. I guess you are right Sharrant. It specifically says that Jack skills are bound by the same rules as its regular counterparts.
I honestly hadn't thought about it, and assumed that Jack sent in day kills silently, since his night vig kills would be silent. Keirathi, pls comment on my reversal of sharrant, where he knew that the assassin was the logical choice. Yet didnt even know how day-vig worked etc. I feel like you're trying to put suspicion on me, there's a reason I asked in the thread if day vig had to claim his shot. I was unaware of that restriction so thought dayvig could have been in play, but you said it couldn't have been because of the claim. So when Keirathi showed you were indeed correct, it showed that there was only one possible way he could have died, and you had enough information to know that too but you came to the wrong conclusion. Perhaps it was an earnest oversight on your part, but you should have known immediately. The fact you had referenced it so recently but failed to take it into consideration is suspicious. That you're trying to turn this around on me like that makes it doubly so to me. Then why are you not pressuring me? I also said that NRA was a possibility, and I'm the one that told you that day-vig had to type it in thread. But that's mostly irrelevant. The bigger question is why were you thinking so hard about what gonzaw's role was in the post you quoted?
I specifically asked you about the day vig requirements, that's why. It came across to me as very unlikely that he could propose an idea on what happened when his entire idea is proven wrong by a piece of knowledge he already used in that same idea. IE Knowing that Gonzaw could not have been dayvigged because there was no shot in the thread, but not knowing that Gonzaw could not have shot because he did not write it in the thread. But you never stated anything similar, I had no reason to believe you had thought about that at the time, and it seems like you overlooked it both ways as opposed to in just one.
And to answer your question, that was not thinking very hard. It was just fairly obvious as soon as he stated he would most likely withhold his shot. If he had no protection or night shot then he was forced to shoot today or have wasted his role. I think it's pretty simple to deduce from that post.
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I'm going to go to bed after this post. I'm too excited to look at things clearly, so I'm not sure if I'm jumping down Mocsta's throat over an earnest mistake, or if I have caught him in a slip, I need time to think about that.
Before I go, I think it's important to mention, everyone seems to be really focusing this onto Artanis, and saying that his suspicion on Artanis is the reason he was killed. I'm not so sure I agree with that, yes, he was pushing Artanis and VE, but at the same time if this is just a blue snipe this has the potential to lead us into mislynches.
Everyone should take the time to consider and reconsider whether they believe he was killed because they could figure out his role AND he was pushing mafia, whether he was killed because they figured out his role and wanted a blue snipe, or whether they killed him because they figured out his role and he was pushing mislynches and it would lock the town in on those mislynches.
In either case they knew his role before killing him, you have to factor that in. They knew that no matter the repurcussions of the kill, they knew that they were killing a very strong town role.
Good night, everyone. If I get back on in the next half an hour, please tell me to go to sleep.
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On April 08 2013 13:45 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:24 Sharrant wrote: IE Knowing that Gonzaw could not have been dayvigged because there was no shot in the thread, but not knowing that Gonzaw could not have shot because he did not write it in the thread. But you never stated anything similar What? That's exactly what I said, in not so many words. I thought NRA was a perfectly possibly explanation for why gonzaw was dead, meaning that I thought gonzaw shot and hit NRA. You're right, I didn't think about gonzaw having to use a Jack day-vig in the thread, but I said basically the exact same thing mocsta did. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:24 Sharrant wrote: And to answer your question, that was not thinking very hard. It was just fairly obvious as soon as he stated he would most likely withhold his shot. If he had no protection or night shot then he was forced to shoot today or have wasted his role. I think it's pretty simple to deduce from that post.
Meh, whatever. This point is hard to argue, I just think it's weird that you put enough thought into it to correctly deduce that he was Jack. Because when I saw all his posts claiming to have day KP, I didn't care at all about what his role was. I personally spent some time trying to figure out if I thought he was town or not, and once I decided that he probably was I quit thinking about his role because it didn't concern me. Just weird. Mental bookmark for later, if needed.
Ah, I actually missed that post because it came after I had already accused Mocsta. That does make me think more likely it was just a mistake from Mocsta and not something malicious.
Good night for realzies this time.
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Good morning, everyone.
I'm glad to see I was wrong about Artanis and VisceraEyes.
I'll be writing up a longer post in a minute but I wanted to ask two questions first:
If the role reverser were used on a justice vigi when they shot a mafia member, what would be the end result? Would both/either player live through the shot?
If the role reverser used his power on the janitor when the janitor did not use his power, would it activate or would the role reverser fizzle out because no action was taken by the janitor?
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On April 10 2013 17:37 Keirathi wrote:Also, as an aside: Pretty sure Sharrant is scum. Look at these posts: Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:43 Sharrant wrote:On April 07 2013 04:27 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever. Kill me then. I can't hunt scum while not a single person in the entire game is taking me seriously.
##Vote: RestrainingOrder Hi, Viscera. I'm pretty much null on your actions, so I want you to help me. Now, the reason I'm null on you is because I know I can't read you. Last game we played I thought I had a slam dunk case on you, and you were town. Now I might be reaching with this, but I want you to help me talk about Keirathi. See, just a short while ago there was talk about why Keirathi was scum, I think there're some really valid points in there. And I think a few others saw it too, but then suddenly the town was dragged off of this and into a spammy little brawl focused on antogonizing you and painting you as scum. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're not, but the way the thread has turned suggests to me you're not. This feels more to me like you're getting attacked the same way that caused Marvellosity to explode when he was town in a recent game. So I want you to talk to me about Keirathi, who after being called out has dissapeared after the cases on him, and I just want your opinion on Rayne because frankly I'm not quite sure how to read him. Do you think this could be mafia Keirathi's team trying to drag the town away from him after he got caught by causing a spammy mess on day 1? Do you think this is more likely town getting in an argument that is not indicative of Keirathi's alignment? And then your opinion on Keirathi himself and Rayne would be great., thank you. In the pre-game. I think he was actually trying here to do what he claimed was happening with me. I think he was trying to draw attention away from VE and give VE and out by pushing sentiment back towards me. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. Deflecting away from Artanis. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:21 Sharrant wrote:@StrongandBig Hi! I'll try and give you a sort of stream of consciousness on this one, and hopefully that will actually help me figure out where I stand on him. I've read through his filter a few times and I always notice things that send me in opposite directions on his alignment. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:Okay duders, raid night is over. Going for a quick re-read of the past half day after I post this since I've been tabbing out to catch what I could during down time. First impressions: I saw that Oats is/was under some suspicion (just going from memory, don't recall if it was talked out or not) but Oats is Oats; he's a bit all over the place but I don't see the same intent to shut things down that someone mentioned earlier. He was just as loud and all-over in RED. Null still. RO seems to want to be more helpful than I remember him being as scum in LX, not feeling what you guys that are suspicious of him are feeling there, either. Got my eye on Rayn at the moment. His style was spammy but usually constructive (at least in telling us what he was thinking) and I've got none of that after the first couple pages of his filter. Ten one-liners in a row or something, doesn't match up to his standard attacking pattern from RED. The attacks there were thought-out, here they mostly look like casual accusations perhaps fishing for reactions? The only points he has going for him is that he's absolutely confused about what is going on regarding the draft process: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Should we have our roles by now? Rayn, if you are serious about RO being scum then lay if out for me in one clean concise post, and if you are not, who are you most suspicious of right now? Or are you just drunk again?
Other stuff: Most of the chat was about planning how to set up the top spots to get roles protected, is that still a thing? I'm spot 2 somehow, and I was thinking about taking America because America, fuck yeah! Is that going to make me a Pariah or something? Girls just wanna have fun, you know? I'll use it as a second lynch like was suggested yesterday or I can just sit on it if you guys are paranoid about it. Going back for that re-read and making some coffee. See you in a bit when I'm finished with that. PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! This post felt very airy, it certainly felt to me like a post that was primarily summation. There are some good questions in there, but there's no hard stances. The closest he comes to that is that he says he's got his eye on Rayn, but then never specifically says he was scummy. Points out he doesn't give fit his previous town meta, but then he gives him an out on it anyways saying that he might be fishing for reactions. I actually noticed something that really has me leaning towards scum on him now. He makes 2 posts specifically stating for people not to spam, and has several posts insulting BM for making small spammy posts with no content. I read this as townie when I first skimmed through his filter, but looking at it again There's something very wrong. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:.
PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. Look at his posts: + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 09:59 Restraining Order wrote:In fact, I'm just going to quote myself on this matter. On April 05 2013 11:30 Restraining Order wrote: Pick assassin and try to kill me with please.
That way I don't actually die to your stupidity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll stop reading your posts henceforth. Wouldn't be a problem if you'd actually think I'm mafia I'll indulge your soft town claim for a moment and simply ask you why your list contains 9 people. If you can justify all 9 in some way at least we'll know whether or not you're talking the breeze with these myriad suspicions. On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. On April 06 2013 10:08 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:06 Restraining Order wrote:On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. No, it's 9. I have no idea where VE got the Caller thing from, and it's sad you just take his word. If I've misread it please tell me how. It won't be the first time. I spent like 24 hours in Fruity misreading every little thing so just straighten me out instead of spitting in my face, thx. On April 06 2013 10:09 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually I misread the quote-pyramid. He was saying he wanted to lynch Kier when I thought he was replying to Caller. My mistake. .... On April 06 2013 11:28 ObviousOne wrote: WTF are all these random ass reads BM? Is this what you always do? On April 06 2013 11:38 ObviousOne wrote:RIGHT ABOUT WHAT PLEASE TYPE MORE JESUS FUCK On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? On April 06 2013 13:52 ObviousOne wrote:... not sure what to make of this but way to leave yourself open to accusations of a scum slip. Wow that's really bad looking. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:37 geript wrote:I figured out why I don't like the case on RestrainingOrder at all. In The Game, I got to watch both Bugs and Kita push absolute bullshit towards town's direct. It was well crafted bullshit, but bullshit none the less. VE's case is an exact example of this type of thing for a few reasons: 1. The townread/lynch stuff + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: So RO wants to lynch inside [Caller, Palmar, Decon, VE, Kierathi, Artanis, austin, OO, Vivax, sn0] before D1 starts. That's cool I guess, but some of those names sound familiar. Where have I seen those names before? ... Oh that's right. In that OTHER post where he made a list and said "4/5 are townies", he wants to lynch 3/5 of them. This is the exact type of thing that we as scum would jump on. Any little thing that we could catch where town fucked up, changed reads, etc. It's perfect to attack because it seems so simple and plausible. Town in general are not going to be filtering themselves constantly to see their positions, know where they stood on exact people, etc. Whereas as scum, we were quite often referencing ourselves to see what stances were plausible for us to take. I can't wholly ignore the possibility that RO may just be lazy scum, hell he lurked most of LX until his teammate shot him. However, it's stupid to think that this early on that scum would make a slip this big. It's far more likely to be bad/stupid town. This isn't particularly scummy. On April 06 2013 13:57 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:54 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote:@ArtanisXpI would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] +On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote: Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: [red]Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play?
Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. On April 05 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote: Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you. town are more likely to flip flop than mafia On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:26 Bill Murray wrote: meta Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? AustinMCC at this point is betraying his blue meta as a lurker that I've seen He had a plan that would help the mafia, too, in regards to town picking from the mafia role list It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the mafia have taken from more "town" roles than "mafia" ones By that token, I don't expect there is a Godfather So do you know who is mafia or are you saying AustinMCC is a town read of yours? ALL of those posts were one after another. They're spread out over 4 hours, but it's 11 posts that are almost entirely one liners, some without even any text. Yet he was saying don't spam, make good quality posts. Why wasn't he doing that too? + Show Spoiler +On April 08 2013 08:24 ObviousOne wrote: Also sorry to dine and dash but my cousin wants to hang out, back in a few hours if I manage to be wakeful when I get home.
Oh, gotta vote too. On April 08 2013 09:58 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:54 Palmar wrote: I think it's mafia defending me, I look too scummy for townies to defend me.
why is there no machine gun role that can kill like 8 people on day 1, I'd have liked that.
Also there really is not enough killing this game. Bored Walk Empire Mafiyawn: Pull Your Pud =[ On April 08 2013 10:25 ObviousOne wrote: Undertaker 21-0 GG no RE On April 08 2013 10:31 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:30 strongandbig wrote:On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. hi sharrant i don't think you are right in interpreting those posts as townie, those are things scum could do as well - both because setup discussion is always fertile ground for scum to grow the rare towncred-flower, and because it was (or at least, it seemed to me) clear that this town was too fractious for a real plan to come together. that said i like that you are taking this seriously and giving real thought to what you're saying it seems like you haven't been commenting much on stuff since the end of the setup phase but that may be because you play more like i did when i was a new player, with a lot of full sentences and capitalization and well-thought-out posts so how about lets talk about a player? I randomly chose obviousone. i wrote up a few sentences about his post about artanis, how about you do the same and then we can both post ours after i finish my next dota game? Commercial break. Come at me bro. On April 08 2013 10:46 ObviousOne wrote: Mocsta. I love you dearly. Please make paragraphs.
Or
I'll
Do
This
Just
To
Explain
Why
It's
Annoying
And
Difficult
To
Read. On April 08 2013 10:52 ObviousOne wrote: @Mocsta
<3 never change Look at all the spam there. And the kicker, On April 08 2013 10:28 ObviousOne wrote:On April 08 2013 10:24 Mocsta wrote: Gonzaw Unrelated question.
Do you think I spamming up the thread?
I am asking because my last couple posts have all been big text walls; and not sure if Im getting my message across succinctly at the moment.
Who cares at this point. Give the lurkers a shit load of posts to read when they get back. Let them cry. Let them complain. They will sheep anyway. Your question wouldn't even be relevant if everyone was participating. Be the Mocsta we know and love. Fuck the haters. Straight up saying to spam. Call it a joke, or whatever, but that kind of conflicting mindset isn't townie. ##vote: ObviousOneYou can't stay in line with your own thinking at all, I think that's because you're scum. Chainsaw Artanis. But I think this is the kicker: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. This was almost immediately after the gonzaw shot. At the time, Mocsta and I (and maybe a few others), were floundering a bit about what role killed gonzaw. In strolls Sharrant being 100% sure it was an assassin kill (and remember, he's been hard defending the actual assassin). Keep reading a bit after that and see how the rest of the conversation went down. He tried to flip it to make Mocsta scummy, and he seemed to have put an extraordinary amount of thought into gonzaw being Jack before he flipped for a "townie". So yea, Sharrant is scum. And with that, I sleeps. G'nite!
Hi, Keirathi.
If VE was my scum buddy, do you think he would've responded to my post? Because he never did.
The reason I brought it up to him is twofold: pretty much absolutely nobody read my case on you, or if they did, nobody commented on it, and the conversation of the thread shifted immediately away from you. And I don't know how to read VE, like I said, I thought I made a slam dunk case about him last game, but he was town.
As you can read in that post, I did not expect both of you to be scum, so I wanted his opinion on you, and to help foster some discussion because his response to the game was to stick his head in the sand. After he didn't respond I pretty much gave up on him because there was more important stuff going on in the thread, and he would either start playing, or he would likely get shot.
Why did I defend Artanis? Because he read townie to me and he was a serious lynch candidate. He read townie to me not just for the reasons I gave in that post you quoted, but because he was the only person who seemed to be reading and responding to my posts. He genuinely seemed to be involved in the game, and read as if he was in a similar position to me in the early game: A townie that seems to oft be ignored by the thread unless something sparks particular interest from the thread.
As for the "chainsaw defense" thing, that's particularly scummy for you. I was asked by another player to read Obvious One's filter, and comment on it. So that's what I did. If you had read the thread and not cherry picked the quote you would know that. Now if you have something that you would like to dispute with the case, talk to me about it.
Yep, I was pretty much 100% sure, but not as you stated 100% sure. There's a difference. Again you go with your "extraordinary" amount of thought. He made it about as obvious as BM made his own role at the start of today. You could glance at his posts and tell what he was, if you think the fact that I'm trying to determine other people's selections is scummy, that's fine. I do it because I want to know as much as I possibly can.
I'm going to give your filter a re-read, and read some of your past games later. I want to know if you cherry pick as both alignments.
Mocsta How do you reconcile this
On April 10 2013 22:44 Mocsta wrote:Hi Everyone.
I think we can all benefit by steering conversation more towards critical thought, and fleshed out thoughts.
Instead of just saying "Person X" is scum. Let us create debate; detail the scum mindset, and justify the vote.
If someone builds a case, and you disagree. Let us create debate; challenge the points, and work together to come to a well-reasoned conclusion
For example, ===================== Oatsmaster+ Show Spoiler [Re:Sn0_Man] +]Im still not sure why you think he is scum. On April 10 2013 21:36 Oatsmaster wrote: Was that the 'he doesnt care what he posts argument? the too scummy too be scum argument?' Cause that is not so good. Its like ~~~ not ^^^ Yes, I am referring to the Keirathi "he doesnt care what he posts" argument. After a second review, I thought his points were of merit and showed a town confidence. Can you walk me through what you disagree with. ===================== BillMurray+ Show Spoiler [Re:Sinani] +On April 10 2013 22:16 Bill Murray wrote: sinani has been pressuring people, and regardless if one of them is me, made a good case on strongandbig... he hasn't been useless this game, like sn0_man, sharrant, obviousone, just to name a few off the top of my head Do you think SnB is scum? If not, why do you think the case is "good"? Regardless of whether the case is good or bad though; it was made prior to the Artanis case (i.e. very early game Day 1). Futher, Sinani never updated his vote from that pivotal moment in the game. Do you truly believe that SnB case was good enough to warrant leaving the vote their for an entire cycle? Please keep in mind, Sinani was up to date with the thread enough, to request Gonzaw use his day-vig to shoot "BillMurray". ===================== Sharrant+ Show Spoiler [Re:Keirathi] +Keirathi CaseI am very curious to hear your response to the issues regarding the assassin claim knowledge + vested interest in ascertaining blue roles.
With this
On April 11 2013 00:05 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:03 Oatsmaster wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2013 00:00 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:58 Oatsmaster wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 23:56 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:55 Oatsmaster wrote: I changed my mind.
I LIKE SNOMAN.
K.
Um so yeah Vivax and sinani.
##Unvote: ObviousOne
##Vote: Oatsmaster I KNEW IT so predictable mocsta. So now its your turn to write a case right? Or am I wrong? Nope. Don't need to. Right, so I need to justify my scumread, but you dont. Cool beans bro, cool beans. Your credibility gone. just like *poof* This response is exactly why my vote is justified. Night guys.
That last chain quote is you doing exactly the opposite of what you proposed to the thread. Why? What does town gain from what you posted. Your statement before implies you believe that to be anti-town. Yet you made not one, but several almost contentless posts refusing to do anything you mentioned before: You did not create debate. You did not detail the scum mindset. You did not justify your vote.
The rest will come in a later post, but I figured if I'm taking a lunch break I may as well eat, and then work on a second post instead of just having this one take a few hours.
|
Good evening, everyone. Only a short post tonight, I'll give everything another read over tomorrow morning to see if I can actually figure something out.
I've pretty much started over at square one on my reads now since they were so far off to start.
If the JusticeVigi shot a townie, but was medic healed would they survive? Would the townie he shot at die?
At this point I'm taking BM's claim at pretty much face value, it at least lines up with the what's gone on so far. And above is the last question I think I need to ask before I can be relatively sure of what actually happened.
With that in mind, starting from the point of BM being Justice Vig and shooting Caller, I believe that makes ObviousOne and Rayn near confirmed town. Now this only applies 100% if the answers to the above are not: Survive, and die. If those are the answers than there's some chance for error, but I think BM would have been fairly low down a doctors save list for last night.
Caller had just used his power to execute a mafia member very publicly. I think in everyone's eyes that bought him a huge amount of town cred. I don't see him using that town cred to follow it up with a bus against another mafioso.
On April 09 2013 05:22 Caller wrote: i'm bad so lets lynch obviousone tomorrow actually
On April 09 2013 10:37 Caller wrote: so lets lynch rayn please
On April 09 2013 20:52 Caller wrote: lets kill rayn pls
On April 08 2013 11:19 Caller wrote:Alright guys just kidding we kill ObviousOne. I threw the vote on artanis because mafia love bandwagons. Now that we've gotten one, it seems pretty obvious to me that people we should be looking for are on the lower parts of the bandwagon list. But not the last one. Given that, who we we have? As a rule I usually try to lynch the 3rd or 4th person on the bandwagon. Since I was the 3rd person on the bandwagon, that leaves Monsieur Oatsmaster as a rather fishy hanger-on to the bandwagon. I already made a case on why I wanted to lynch him, but I don't see him as a threat right now. Still keep dis in mind plox. Meapak_Ziphh? Who knows. I don't care enough right now to find out. Null tell. Null tell. I don't really know what Artanis is due to lack of effort, but this follow-on vote to deconduo is pretty scummy. :| ah, the typical OMGUS. Normally could be a townie war, except that this is a bandwagon. Very Scummy. Hmm. You want to make my life interesting, do you? 8 times out of 10 that I see this, it is a mafia trying to get town cred for not voting for obvious day 1 townie lynch. Vewy Intewesting. Ah, and we get to the core of the matter. This guy has done nothing but throw ambivalency around. Yet now he's so sure that he will hop-on the bandwagonn. If you were really not sure about this and you were town, you'd be like "HANG ONS GUYS I THINKS HE MIGHT BE OKAY" and then watch helplessly as the bandwagon gains infinite momentum and lynches innocent townie #1. But nope, instead you're like "but wait guys i read his meta and came out with some random conclusions that don't actually mean anything because meta is stupid especially among players that have played this game more than three days." I actually went ahead and read his filter for those games, and I think that your conclusions are bullshit that can easily be construed as whatever you want.. Given that he explicitly stated that as mafia he would be "next time" more involved, but that he simply got lost due to large amount of posts, do you expect any credence that his behaving similar to the previous game is any true indication of his alignment this game? No. You shouldn't. And it's a dumb reason for going on a dumb bandwagon, but it makes you look nice! VOTE THIS GUY. I'm fairly satisfied that yamato is town as it stands. I'll still jump on him in a heartbeat but I don't think he's mafia. Strangely enough, I think RO is town. Are you gonna get a reason for it? Nope.
Those posts were at the very end of his life, and I don't think he had any reason to believe he would die. It seems to me that if Caller was actually mafia, then Oats and Rayn have to be town because he immediately started pushing for both of them to be lynched. He certainly had the town cred to be able to force either or both of their lynches after the Artanis kill. I don't see how him bussing another mafia member could be a valid plan at that point after VE died as well. They'd have to be trying to go for a mislynch.
Obviously if BM is not the Justice Vigi this all falls apart, so if someone else is the justice vigi, I think it would help the town.
The other thing is Caller's quick mention of RO at the end of that quote. If he had known he was going to die, I would think that he would put a mafia as a "not sure why, but I think this person as town" to try and WIFOM a mafia into looking a bit townier. But because he didn't have any reason to think he was going to die, I would assume that RO is town, and that Caller was trying to make himself look better by calling someone who is possible to mislynch for sure town for when they flip later.
The last bit can certainly be flipped on its head over and over with WIFOM, but in my head that's the most plausible solution because they're the choices that maxmize the reward and minimize the risk in my mind.
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On April 11 2013 11:22 Keirathi wrote: So Sharrant, who do you think is scum?
My number one scum right now is StrongAndBig. The two biggest reasons I see him as scum are as follows:
On April 10 2013 12:11 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 12:11 yamato77 wrote: Should we lynch sinani or Meapak?
Hmm..... not meapak
On April 10 2013 12:14 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 12:13 yamato77 wrote:On April 10 2013 12:11 Sn0_Man wrote:On April 10 2013 12:11 yamato77 wrote: Should we lynch sinani or Meapak?
Hmm..... Why not both? Its double lynch day. HOLY FUCK YES GG scum, you lose today. dont lynch meapak
On April 10 2013 12:33 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 12:26 Shelvocke wrote:I talk with my guns. ##Kill Meapak_Ziph if this is real fuck man
On April 11 2013 13:46 strongandbig wrote: dont vote for meapak hes not scum
One: Setting himself up to look good when MZ flips, while opposing it in the least useful way possible. If this were any closer to the end of the cycle I would take it as a scum claim. As is I think it's very scummy, but the second part is what does it for me.
On April 08 2013 13:53 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:21 Sharrant wrote:@StrongandBig Hi! I'll try and give you a sort of stream of consciousness on this one, and hopefully that will actually help me figure out where I stand on him. I've read through his filter a few times and I always notice things that send me in opposite directions on his alignment. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:Okay duders, raid night is over. Going for a quick re-read of the past half day after I post this since I've been tabbing out to catch what I could during down time. First impressions: I saw that Oats is/was under some suspicion (just going from memory, don't recall if it was talked out or not) but Oats is Oats; he's a bit all over the place but I don't see the same intent to shut things down that someone mentioned earlier. He was just as loud and all-over in RED. Null still. RO seems to want to be more helpful than I remember him being as scum in LX, not feeling what you guys that are suspicious of him are feeling there, either. Got my eye on Rayn at the moment. His style was spammy but usually constructive (at least in telling us what he was thinking) and I've got none of that after the first couple pages of his filter. Ten one-liners in a row or something, doesn't match up to his standard attacking pattern from RED. The attacks there were thought-out, here they mostly look like casual accusations perhaps fishing for reactions? The only points he has going for him is that he's absolutely confused about what is going on regarding the draft process: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Should we have our roles by now? Rayn, if you are serious about RO being scum then lay if out for me in one clean concise post, and if you are not, who are you most suspicious of right now? Or are you just drunk again?
Other stuff: Most of the chat was about planning how to set up the top spots to get roles protected, is that still a thing? I'm spot 2 somehow, and I was thinking about taking America because America, fuck yeah! Is that going to make me a Pariah or something? Girls just wanna have fun, you know? I'll use it as a second lynch like was suggested yesterday or I can just sit on it if you guys are paranoid about it. Going back for that re-read and making some coffee. See you in a bit when I'm finished with that. PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! This post felt very airy, it certainly felt to me like a post that was primarily summation. There are some good questions in there, but there's no hard stances. The closest he comes to that is that he says he's got his eye on Rayn, but then never specifically says he was scummy. Points out he doesn't give fit his previous town meta, but then he gives him an out on it anyways saying that he might be fishing for reactions. I actually noticed something that really has me leaning towards scum on him now. He makes 2 posts specifically stating for people not to spam, and has several posts insulting BM for making small spammy posts with no content. I read this as townie when I first skimmed through his filter, but looking at it again There's something very wrong. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:.
PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. Look at his posts: + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 09:59 Restraining Order wrote:In fact, I'm just going to quote myself on this matter. On April 05 2013 11:30 Restraining Order wrote: Pick assassin and try to kill me with please.
That way I don't actually die to your stupidity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll stop reading your posts henceforth. Wouldn't be a problem if you'd actually think I'm mafia I'll indulge your soft town claim for a moment and simply ask you why your list contains 9 people. If you can justify all 9 in some way at least we'll know whether or not you're talking the breeze with these myriad suspicions. On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. On April 06 2013 10:08 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:06 Restraining Order wrote:On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. No, it's 9. I have no idea where VE got the Caller thing from, and it's sad you just take his word. If I've misread it please tell me how. It won't be the first time. I spent like 24 hours in Fruity misreading every little thing so just straighten me out instead of spitting in my face, thx. On April 06 2013 10:09 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually I misread the quote-pyramid. He was saying he wanted to lynch Kier when I thought he was replying to Caller. My mistake. .... On April 06 2013 11:28 ObviousOne wrote: WTF are all these random ass reads BM? Is this what you always do? On April 06 2013 11:38 ObviousOne wrote:RIGHT ABOUT WHAT PLEASE TYPE MORE JESUS FUCK On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? On April 06 2013 13:52 ObviousOne wrote:... not sure what to make of this but way to leave yourself open to accusations of a scum slip. Wow that's really bad looking. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:37 geript wrote:I figured out why I don't like the case on RestrainingOrder at all. In The Game, I got to watch both Bugs and Kita push absolute bullshit towards town's direct. It was well crafted bullshit, but bullshit none the less. VE's case is an exact example of this type of thing for a few reasons: 1. The townread/lynch stuff + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: So RO wants to lynch inside [Caller, Palmar, Decon, VE, Kierathi, Artanis, austin, OO, Vivax, sn0] before D1 starts. That's cool I guess, but some of those names sound familiar. Where have I seen those names before? ... Oh that's right. In that OTHER post where he made a list and said "4/5 are townies", he wants to lynch 3/5 of them. This is the exact type of thing that we as scum would jump on. Any little thing that we could catch where town fucked up, changed reads, etc. It's perfect to attack because it seems so simple and plausible. Town in general are not going to be filtering themselves constantly to see their positions, know where they stood on exact people, etc. Whereas as scum, we were quite often referencing ourselves to see what stances were plausible for us to take. I can't wholly ignore the possibility that RO may just be lazy scum, hell he lurked most of LX until his teammate shot him. However, it's stupid to think that this early on that scum would make a slip this big. It's far more likely to be bad/stupid town. This isn't particularly scummy. On April 06 2013 13:57 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:54 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote:@ArtanisXpI would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] +On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote: Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: [red]Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play?
Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. On April 05 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote: Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you. town are more likely to flip flop than mafia On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:26 Bill Murray wrote: meta Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? AustinMCC at this point is betraying his blue meta as a lurker that I've seen He had a plan that would help the mafia, too, in regards to town picking from the mafia role list It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the mafia have taken from more "town" roles than "mafia" ones By that token, I don't expect there is a Godfather So do you know who is mafia or are you saying AustinMCC is a town read of yours? ALL of those posts were one after another. They're spread out over 4 hours, but it's 11 posts that are almost entirely one liners, some without even any text. Yet he was saying don't spam, make good quality posts. Why wasn't he doing that too? + Show Spoiler +On April 08 2013 08:24 ObviousOne wrote: Also sorry to dine and dash but my cousin wants to hang out, back in a few hours if I manage to be wakeful when I get home.
Oh, gotta vote too. On April 08 2013 09:58 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:54 Palmar wrote: I think it's mafia defending me, I look too scummy for townies to defend me.
why is there no machine gun role that can kill like 8 people on day 1, I'd have liked that.
Also there really is not enough killing this game. Bored Walk Empire Mafiyawn: Pull Your Pud =[ On April 08 2013 10:25 ObviousOne wrote: Undertaker 21-0 GG no RE On April 08 2013 10:31 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:30 strongandbig wrote:On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. hi sharrant i don't think you are right in interpreting those posts as townie, those are things scum could do as well - both because setup discussion is always fertile ground for scum to grow the rare towncred-flower, and because it was (or at least, it seemed to me) clear that this town was too fractious for a real plan to come together. that said i like that you are taking this seriously and giving real thought to what you're saying it seems like you haven't been commenting much on stuff since the end of the setup phase but that may be because you play more like i did when i was a new player, with a lot of full sentences and capitalization and well-thought-out posts so how about lets talk about a player? I randomly chose obviousone. i wrote up a few sentences about his post about artanis, how about you do the same and then we can both post ours after i finish my next dota game? Commercial break. Come at me bro. On April 08 2013 10:46 ObviousOne wrote: Mocsta. I love you dearly. Please make paragraphs.
Or
I'll
Do
This
Just
To
Explain
Why
It's
Annoying
And
Difficult
To
Read. On April 08 2013 10:52 ObviousOne wrote: @Mocsta
<3 never change Look at all the spam there. And the kicker, On April 08 2013 10:28 ObviousOne wrote:On April 08 2013 10:24 Mocsta wrote: Gonzaw Unrelated question.
Do you think I spamming up the thread?
I am asking because my last couple posts have all been big text walls; and not sure if Im getting my message across succinctly at the moment.
Who cares at this point. Give the lurkers a shit load of posts to read when they get back. Let them cry. Let them complain. They will sheep anyway. Your question wouldn't even be relevant if everyone was participating. Be the Mocsta we know and love. Fuck the haters. Straight up saying to spam. Call it a joke, or whatever, but that kind of conflicting mindset isn't townie. ##vote: ObviousOneYou can't stay in line with your own thinking at all, I think that's because you're scum. thanks! here's mine OO's artanis case: - most of the traits he picks out are not mutually exclusive or alignment indicative - no attempt to explain the connection between his "meta research" and the conclusion at the end of his post - most of the things he highlights about artanis in tl mafia 51 are equally likely to be explained by the fact that it was a large game as the fact that he was scum - basically the only real points he makes are that artanis has not posted much and that artanis is missing the "edge of sarcasm" that he has as town - imo nebulousthings like the "edge of sarcasm" are equally likely explained by confirmation bias as by them being real, especially when they're just asserted without quotes so what does this mean about oo's alignment? - first, the actual fact that the case is qwrong doesn't mean anything aboput it. townies make wrong cases - second, however, the fact that oo went to all the trouble of highlighting trhe stuff he read from artanis's old games, but then didn't actually draw any conclusions from it but ended up making exactly the same points gonzaw did, makes me think he cares more about the appearance of effort than actually getting anything out of the effort itself. diong all that work to read all those filters and making a list fo traits and then ignoring that list when he makes his final analysis just really doesnt make much sense ot me from a townie pov. - that said, i got exactly the same feeling about oo in RED mafia just now and he flipped town. so i'm hesitant to put too much weight on this point wrt him specifically. basically what i learned from RED mafia about him is that it's entirely possible for him to put in a shitload of effort and not actually get anything useful out of it. - so conclusion: very weak but lean scum.
He starts putting suspicion on OO here, and throws in a defense of Artanis.
On April 08 2013 14:01 strongandbig wrote: the people saying gonzaw was killed to help keep artanis alive are stupid, there's no way that would work.
wifomwifomwifom
more likely that he was killed because one of his "potential dayvig targets" is scum? or just because scum figured out his role and decided to kill him while they could?
Followed by another defense of Artanis
On April 08 2013 23:20 strongandbig wrote: we should absolutely be lynching between artanis, shelvocke, and VE today. IMO we should be lynching VE.
For a scum that high up to take NRA member instead of some active KP role, they would have to think of themselves as a likely check or other night action target. It doesn't make sense just to have a lurker take it and hope to get vigged instead of lynched.
VE is the only one of the list above geript who is a likely check or vig target but not a likely early lynch.
Plus, if you look at his play it's like he's trying to draw vig shots or dt checks.
He is most likely the scum NRA member.
Plus unlike artanis or shelvocke, if he is the NRA member then there's no hope for investigative roles to clear up the questions about him.
IMO we should lynch ve.
He's suddenly in line with lynching Artanis here though. But he's still trying to push the lynch towards the most beneficial possible for mafia. If we had lynched Artanis, we could have lynched VE the day after and we would have known it would be less likely that there would be a kill. If we had lynched VE there would have been another mafia kill. In reality both were lynched, but before that happened getting the lynch onto VE was the best scum could really hope to achieve.
On April 09 2013 01:07 strongandbig wrote: Yeah I agree with what I said before about VE.
I still think artanis is decently likely to be scum, as is shelvocke and to a lesser extent OO.
But I'm gonna go ahead and
##vote: VE
Actually votes VE. Is still going after OO, a little bit.
On April 09 2013 02:53 strongandbig wrote: hey sno-man a few pages back sharrant and i each shared our reads on obviousone. wanna join the "trying to be less lurky" party? poop us out a read on obviousone
Still pushing OO a little. He's never really been going after him too hard, just enough to keep him on everyone's radar, but not enough to lead the lynch.
On April 10 2013 07:04 strongandbig wrote: if i were a vig i would probably shoot oo
or maybe i am a vig and have shot him already! scum you will never know the truth
This is the hardest he's gone after OO, and it actually looks like it's designed to WIFOM townies out of shooting him, which makes sense if they want to mislynch him.
This is in line with what Caller was pushing as a mislynch day 2.
Now there's a few ways this could all fall apart.
First off there's the fact that it means mafia were throwing a fair bit of suspicion on each other at the beginning. Either that was their plan to begin with, or they got forced into it, or there's the possibility StrongAndBig isn't mafia but just ended up in the middle of Deconduo/VE/Artanis.
There's also a lot of assumptions in this case. It assumes that A) Deconduo was not just a townie mad about being shot so that he used his janitor power, and that he was actually mafia. B) It relies on BM actually confirming that he is or is not the justice vig. I think it's very important we confirm this because if he's not then Caller was not necessarily mafia. C) Caller being mafia. If BM is the justice vig he for sure was, but until we know that for sure this is the weakest point of the case. If Caller was not mafia, I am not as certain that StrongAndBig is mafia.
One last point I almost forgot:
On April 08 2013 04:30 strongandbig wrote: gonzaw says vig shot me VIGS DONT SHOOT ME I WILL DO GOOD THINGS FOR TOWN!!!!!!!!
This post reads to me as a joke made by someone who couldn't get it out of their head that they were mafia. That's really up for interpretation though.
It's food time, so I'm going to post this. I'll make one more post on who the other person I think we should lynch today is before I go, and I'll try and be back for lynch time, but I'm unsure if that's possible.
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I'm not particularly happy with any other lynch right now. I'd like to lynch StrongAndBig as things currently stand. Even his lynch has too many "what ifs" in my mind, but that's the lynch I'm most confident in, unless someone has proof that BM is not JusticeVigi.
I agree with the plan to claim from the bottom up, I'm just waiting until we get up to me. I'll do my best to check in on the thread throughout the day, because I don't want to slow the claims down. It seems to likely to me that scum don't have BC, but there's still the possibility that they do.
My votes will be on StrongAndBig, and my second vote will be on Austin. If someone has an anti-nuke to save him, I'll likely move my vote.
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Only have a half second for a phone post.
I am Eli Thompson, officer of the law, and vanilla townie after attempting to take detective.
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Hey, guys, so I finally got to read the last few pages. I think StrongAndBig is the last member of the mafia.
Apparently he is the detective, which is what the mafia would have wanted as their fifth slot, in my opinion.
If Caller was mafia showtime, VE the mafia NRA, Deconduo the mafia janitor, and Artanis was the Mafia Assassin then where was their ability to determine a players role? Their last slot would either have to either be a role thief (who stole Decon's role just before he died and used it in his stead, perhaps having a mafia bonus to be able to use it twice) or a role that detects other players roles. I don't believe CPR doctor was chosen by mafia, so this seems to be the likely solution to me.
I completely believe his claim of being Detective, but I am sure he is the mafia detective.
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On April 12 2013 08:52 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 08:50 Sharrant wrote: Hey, guys, so I finally got to read the last few pages. I think StrongAndBig is the last member of the mafia.
Apparently he is the detective, which is what the mafia would have wanted as their fifth slot, in my opinion.
If Caller was mafia showtime, VE the mafia NRA, Deconduo the mafia janitor, and Artanis was the Mafia Assassin then where was their ability to determine a players role? Their last slot would either have to either be a role thief (who stole Decon's role just before he died and used it in his stead, perhaps having a mafia bonus to be able to use it twice) or a role that detects other players roles. I don't believe CPR doctor was chosen by mafia, so this seems to be the likely solution to me.
I completely believe his claim of being Detective, but I am sure he is the mafia detective. Why would mafia take Detective instead of the safer Role Cop (or even better, Capitalist) picks?
He was in 7th draft pick, and there was another mafia member above him so essentially he was in 6th slot. He was quite high up the list, I think it was a safe bet AND it denies town both a role check and an alignment check.
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On April 12 2013 08:54 Keirathi wrote: Also: Today is a double lynch. Who else do you want to lynch? Why?
How do you feel about Vivax?
I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. It seems to me there is only one mafia left, and StrongAndBig is the person I think far and away most likely to be mafia. I'm more comfortable with a single lynch since Austin is essentially already an extra lynch.
I'll give Vivax a read through right now. From what I can remember he's acted far more sane this game than when I played with him, but someone mentioned this play is similar to his play on a smurf. He also at least seems on the same page about StrongAndBig which is a point for him in my books, but if StrongAndBig isn't the last mafia then that really means nothing. The last point alone makes him townie enough for me to want to lynch him until it's proven that StrongAndBig isn't the last mafia.
My initial impression is still that any lynch I see today would benefit threefold by having another day which should resolve the BM situation that has its tendrils in just about every case I can think of.
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On April 12 2013 08:58 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 08:54 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 08:52 Keirathi wrote:On April 12 2013 08:50 Sharrant wrote: Hey, guys, so I finally got to read the last few pages. I think StrongAndBig is the last member of the mafia.
Apparently he is the detective, which is what the mafia would have wanted as their fifth slot, in my opinion.
If Caller was mafia showtime, VE the mafia NRA, Deconduo the mafia janitor, and Artanis was the Mafia Assassin then where was their ability to determine a players role? Their last slot would either have to either be a role thief (who stole Decon's role just before he died and used it in his stead, perhaps having a mafia bonus to be able to use it twice) or a role that detects other players roles. I don't believe CPR doctor was chosen by mafia, so this seems to be the likely solution to me.
I completely believe his claim of being Detective, but I am sure he is the mafia detective. Why would mafia take Detective instead of the safer Role Cop (or even better, Capitalist) picks? He was in 7th draft pick, and there was another mafia member above him so essentially he was in 6th slot. He was quite high up the list, I think it was a safe bet AND it denies town both a role check and an alignment check. Still doesn't answer why not Capitalist. Capitalist is like, an awesome middle ground. One extra vig KP, and some role checks. Is denying town the DT worth it?
Probably the same reason I didn't try at Capilast, it felt more like an early draft choice than Detective did. I was fairly certain it wouldn't've made it out of the top 5 slots.
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On April 12 2013 09:15 Keirathi wrote: Sharrant: What about Meapak?
I don't mind him too much right now. I think that his shot on Austin was very bad play, but I liked his reaction to it when he saw your claim about Austin. Sure, he could've faked it, I wouldn't put it past him. But I'd rather keep as many people alive as possible. I don't know how to take him not coming back to the thread for so long though. That could've been an embarassed townie being glad he didn't have to stick around after his mistake or a mafia looking to clam up and not reveal anything before he was "officially" dead.
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On April 12 2013 09:22 Keirathi wrote: Also one more question for Sharrant: On day 1, you wrote up a big case about why OO was scum. What made you change your mind today, and why aren't you voting for him anymore?
I posted this before I think. If BM is JV like it seems, then Caller was being set up to be the scum to win the game. They were putting him to squeak by to LyLo on the back of his Artanis kill. And while Artanis was set to die/during the night Caller was calling both OO and Rayne scum. If BM is JV then there is no chance OO is scum. Because A) Caller would've been set to kill another mafia after they had already lost 2 members. B) because BM as JV and Decon as scum mean that there is only one scum left. I think that StrongAndBig fits that more than anyone.
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On April 12 2013 09:25 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 09:24 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 09:15 Keirathi wrote: Sharrant: What about Meapak? I don't mind him too much right now. I think that his shot on Austin was very bad play, but I liked his reaction to it when he saw your claim about Austin. Sure, he could've faked it, I wouldn't put it past him. But I'd rather keep as many people alive as possible. I don't know how to take him not coming back to the thread for so long though. That could've been an embarassed townie being glad he didn't have to stick around after his mistake or a mafia looking to clam up and not reveal anything before he was "officially" dead. So this isn't your position anymore? Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:23 Sharrant wrote: 1. America should not be picked by any town member. I don't think it very strongly benefits town. The only way I think it benefits town is if it is used by a town player to essentially act as a second lynch. I believe that America must announce its nuke in the thread (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). This is my proposal. Either A) we all agree to avoid the role. No town member takes it, thus if it is ever used we will know that a mafia member took it. or B) If someone does pick it they announce themselves right away and we use it as a second lynch. Announcing it after day 1, or using the power to kill someone that the town does not agree on should be seen as that person claiming scum.
I personally prefer option A, but I can't control anyone.
I prefer that much more than what we have right now, but with no one else to back it up it becomes a moot thing. The whole point of it is to lengthen the game by scaring people off of using nukes and kill roles, but when it's just one person that nobody really listens to it doesn't work very well.
Aside from that, like I've said, it's unrealistic for him to be scum based on numbers, so I'd rather focus on the person who I think is most likely to be scum, and then if he's not BM will be resolved tonight and that will either mean the assumptions I've been using are correct, or they've been incorrect.
Once I know that I'll either have to reevaluate or keep going after people I think would fit the slot as the last scum member.
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@Vivax You can always put a vote on Austin, he's set to die today, so it's like voting for a single lynch.
I encourage everyone to think about what I've said about StrongAndBig. If you lynch me today, that's fine, but please shoot or lynch StrongAndBig afterwards.
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On April 12 2013 09:48 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 09:39 Sharrant wrote: @Vivax You can always put a vote on Austin, he's set to die today, so it's like voting for a single lynch.
I encourage everyone to think about what I've said about StrongAndBig. If you lynch me today, that's fine, but please shoot or lynch StrongAndBig afterwards. What Vivax is saying is that if we start moving votes off of you, then he's next in line to get lynched and will lose his ability to parity check someone tonight.
I know, but if enough people move over to either StrongAndBig or Austin then it is possible to save both of us, and that way would at least give us a chance to kill scum.
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On April 12 2013 09:53 Keirathi wrote: Maybe austin should just shoot S&B too. We kill all 3 of you and settle it (hopefully) for good.
I like the simplicity of this, but if we're wrong about BM being JV then it means that there's a very good chance at least one scum is outside of the group of 4. Personally I'd rather you guys take it slow and not give the mafia a chance of coming back into this game. There's a chance that the day ends instantly ifwe do it that way, but there's a chance we kill 4 townies, or 1 mafia and 3 townies going into the night phase.
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On April 12 2013 10:03 strongandbig wrote: Oh apparently no one has actually voted for me it's just sharrant in here trying to save his ass at the last minute. Gl with that.
I'd like to see you flip before me, but if that's not possible I'll settle for seeing it after.
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The lynch is in 45 minutes, yes?
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The GF's ability that "covers" a player, does it obscure their flip as well? Like, if he made someone appear as a certain role and alignment would the player revert to their actual role and alignment, or would they flip as what he covered them?
This just popped into my head, it may be a little paranoid but whatever:
The Godfather role says he can cover a player "CHANGING THEIR ROLE AND ALIGNMENT" as opposed to the framer which says "CHANGE HOW ONE'S ALIGNMENT APPEARS". This makes me think that it would obscure a flip as well. What if Caller didn't kill a mafia, what if Artanis was made to look like the assassin?
I think I'm getting really paranoid with that one, and BC will probably come in and say their proper alignment is revealed upon flip, but that would really change where we are in the game.
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On April 12 2013 10:43 austinmcc wrote: Yeah, there's not much time to shoot but I'm serious when I've said all along that the long game favors town and I don't think people should be firing KP all over the place. Perhaps it's dumb to not use the shot, but oh well.
Only thing I'm super considering is shooting obviousone, as a prelynch almost, since it appears that he's going down. But I don't love having stalled this long, only to dick with the double lynch this late in the cycle.
Frankly, I don't love my play during the nuke day as a whole. Not enough scumhunting, too much crappy play and disinterest in game.
Then spend the last hour chatting with me. Do you think it's plausible a scum caller was going to push a scum ObviousOne today or is it more likely ObviousOne is town? Do you think MZ's nuke was a townie mistake, or a mafia play?
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On April 12 2013 10:44 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 10:41 Sharrant wrote: The GF's ability that "covers" a player, does it obscure their flip as well? Like, if he made someone appear as a certain role and alignment would the player revert to their actual role and alignment, or would they flip as what he covered them?
This just popped into my head, it may be a little paranoid but whatever:
The Godfather role says he can cover a player "CHANGING THEIR ROLE AND ALIGNMENT" as opposed to the framer which says "CHANGE HOW ONE'S ALIGNMENT APPEARS". This makes me think that it would obscure a flip as well. What if Caller didn't kill a mafia, what if Artanis was made to look like the assassin?
I think I'm getting really paranoid with that one, and BC will probably come in and say their proper alignment is revealed upon flip, but that would really change where we are in the game. Mod confirmed, the GF was a bonus meaning.. he chose a KP role; and had a Killer type Role PM. So I suspect this is paranoid, but we shall see when he responds I guess.
Nono, the GF's ability. I know the GF part was a bonus. But Artanis might not have been the Assassin GF. If say, Sn0man (just picking a name at this point) had picked the role Godfather and used the ability to cover Artanis, would Artanis' death reveal his original role, or the role that he was covered with.
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On April 12 2013 10:48 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 10:31 Mocsta wrote: And then there is this stupid bickering with Sn0, who is prob CPR Medic based on claims thus far. Things that I am NOT: CPR Medic
Just claim already. I actually can't even understand why you're not claiming at this point.
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On April 12 2013 10:49 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 10:48 Sn0_Man wrote:On April 12 2013 10:31 Mocsta wrote: And then there is this stupid bickering with Sn0, who is prob CPR Medic based on claims thus far. Things that I am NOT: CPR Medic WTF lol so its possible the role was WIFOM'd out of the game.. funny wasnt sharrant obsessed with that role before? And now he is "vt" going for detective?
I wanted that role blocked, yes. But I was picking halfway down the list, there's not a chance I'm actually blocking the role if I go for it. so I went with something that suited my character.
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On April 12 2013 10:50 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 10:48 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 10:44 Mocsta wrote:On April 12 2013 10:41 Sharrant wrote: The GF's ability that "covers" a player, does it obscure their flip as well? Like, if he made someone appear as a certain role and alignment would the player revert to their actual role and alignment, or would they flip as what he covered them?
This just popped into my head, it may be a little paranoid but whatever:
The Godfather role says he can cover a player "CHANGING THEIR ROLE AND ALIGNMENT" as opposed to the framer which says "CHANGE HOW ONE'S ALIGNMENT APPEARS". This makes me think that it would obscure a flip as well. What if Caller didn't kill a mafia, what if Artanis was made to look like the assassin?
I think I'm getting really paranoid with that one, and BC will probably come in and say their proper alignment is revealed upon flip, but that would really change where we are in the game. Mod confirmed, the GF was a bonus meaning.. he chose a KP role; and had a Killer type Role PM. So I suspect this is paranoid, but we shall see when he responds I guess. Nono, the GF's ability. I know the GF part was a bonus. But Artanis might not have been the Assassin GF. If say, Sn0man (just picking a name at this point) had picked the role Godfather and used the ability to cover Artanis, would Artanis' death reveal his original role, or the role that he was covered with. To be frank, this is reading to me as a last minute WIFOM attempt before lynch deadline.
Then you're bad at reading, because I'm dead. It doesn't matter how it happens, I will die. Either I will be lynched, or I will be shot in the night by a townie if I am not lynched, solely because I escaped the lynch. Of that there is no doubt.
I'm trying to give the town as much information as I can possibly think of in the hour I have left to post.If the GF has that ability, it would explain a lot of the early game. So I want to make sure that it is either not possible, or that people know that it's something to be awareof.
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On April 12 2013 10:51 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 10:50 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 10:48 Sn0_Man wrote:On April 12 2013 10:31 Mocsta wrote: And then there is this stupid bickering with Sn0, who is prob CPR Medic based on claims thus far. Things that I am NOT: CPR Medic Just claim already. I actually can't even understand why you're not claiming at this point. He has claimed. Well, he didn't directly say the words, but he's the inventor.
Interesting. I missed that one then. I'll guess that was where I marked I should reread what he was saying, but I was more interested in rereading StrongAndBig at that point.
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On April 12 2013 10:54 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 10:53 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 10:50 Mocsta wrote:On April 12 2013 10:48 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 10:44 Mocsta wrote:On April 12 2013 10:41 Sharrant wrote: The GF's ability that "covers" a player, does it obscure their flip as well? Like, if he made someone appear as a certain role and alignment would the player revert to their actual role and alignment, or would they flip as what he covered them?
This just popped into my head, it may be a little paranoid but whatever:
The Godfather role says he can cover a player "CHANGING THEIR ROLE AND ALIGNMENT" as opposed to the framer which says "CHANGE HOW ONE'S ALIGNMENT APPEARS". This makes me think that it would obscure a flip as well. What if Caller didn't kill a mafia, what if Artanis was made to look like the assassin?
I think I'm getting really paranoid with that one, and BC will probably come in and say their proper alignment is revealed upon flip, but that would really change where we are in the game. Mod confirmed, the GF was a bonus meaning.. he chose a KP role; and had a Killer type Role PM. So I suspect this is paranoid, but we shall see when he responds I guess. Nono, the GF's ability. I know the GF part was a bonus. But Artanis might not have been the Assassin GF. If say, Sn0man (just picking a name at this point) had picked the role Godfather and used the ability to cover Artanis, would Artanis' death reveal his original role, or the role that he was covered with. To be frank, this is reading to me as a last minute WIFOM attempt before lynch deadline. Then you're bad at reading, because I'm dead. It doesn't matter how it happens, I will die. Either I will be lynched, or I will be shot in the night by a townie if I am not lynched, solely because I escaped the lynch. Of that there is no doubt. I'm trying to give the town as much information as I can possibly think of in the hour I have left to post.If the GF has that ability, it would explain a lot of the early game. So I want to make sure that it is either not possible, or that people know that it's something to be awareof. No, GF is not a death-framer. End of that.
That's good to know.
On April 12 2013 10:55 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 10:53 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 10:50 Mocsta wrote:On April 12 2013 10:48 Sharrant wrote:On April 12 2013 10:44 Mocsta wrote:On April 12 2013 10:41 Sharrant wrote: The GF's ability that "covers" a player, does it obscure their flip as well? Like, if he made someone appear as a certain role and alignment would the player revert to their actual role and alignment, or would they flip as what he covered them?
This just popped into my head, it may be a little paranoid but whatever:
The Godfather role says he can cover a player "CHANGING THEIR ROLE AND ALIGNMENT" as opposed to the framer which says "CHANGE HOW ONE'S ALIGNMENT APPEARS". This makes me think that it would obscure a flip as well. What if Caller didn't kill a mafia, what if Artanis was made to look like the assassin?
I think I'm getting really paranoid with that one, and BC will probably come in and say their proper alignment is revealed upon flip, but that would really change where we are in the game. Mod confirmed, the GF was a bonus meaning.. he chose a KP role; and had a Killer type Role PM. So I suspect this is paranoid, but we shall see when he responds I guess. Nono, the GF's ability. I know the GF part was a bonus. But Artanis might not have been the Assassin GF. If say, Sn0man (just picking a name at this point) had picked the role Godfather and used the ability to cover Artanis, would Artanis' death reveal his original role, or the role that he was covered with. To be frank, this is reading to me as a last minute WIFOM attempt before lynch deadline. Then you're bad at reading, because I'm dead. It doesn't matter how it happens, I will die. Either I will be lynched, or I will be shot in the night by a townie if I am not lynched, solely because I escaped the lynch. Of that there is no doubt. I'm trying to give the town as much information as I can possibly think of in the hour I have left to post.If the GF has that ability, it would explain a lot of the early game. So I want to make sure that it is either not possible, or that people know that it's something to be awareof. Artanis was also easy to talk to before death. So scum/town have the same motivation (to survive) Look. thing is.. with all the roles out there.. why wouldnt the "real" assassin have shot a town contributor like keirathi by now? etc.. i just dont think this argument holds weight.
I guess it's not an issue now, but because it would reveal that something was incorrect about Artanis' death. He'd have to wait to kill until the end of N2, and then it would just show up as a regular death, instead of as an anonymous dayvig.
And as I said earlier, I severely doubt the existance of a BC in this game.
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On April 12 2013 11:06 Mocsta wrote: OK.. can we focus on a consolidated vote pls
I going to assume you shooting (unclaimed OO)
then.. shevlocke, for VT as showtime
which DT checker do we want to lynch
so far we have austin/SnB/keirath/Sharrant
keirathi is off the block as far as i am concerned, boviously so is austin
So SnB or Sharrant?
At this point I think StrongAndBig should just be lynched, it's obviously not going to happen tonight, so please lynch him tomorrow, or shoot him tonight.
Like I said, you can't take me off of the chopping block tonight without just making more problems tomorrow. It'd be unreliable to check me because we know that mafia can have GF in their roles, and that's going to make it stick that I should still be lynched.
Best to lynch me now, and then lynch StrongAndBig tomorrow. Unless there's third party, everyone that's up for lynch today is someone I think is town. I'm going to move my votes to myself and to ObviousOne because I think those are the best lynches today, even if we're both town.
Just please listen about StrongAndBig.
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On April 12 2013 11:11 Mocsta wrote: What was the point of claiming
if the intention wasnt to lynch.
I think wanting to kill Shelvocke based on the fact that he claimed to have become VT trying to take showtime is poor play. If you think he's scum, show why he's scum, and then lynch him. Make it a part of a case, but by itself I don't think it's any reason to go after him.
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On April 12 2013 11:13 geript wrote: If there's a shot it should be vivax
Vivax is not a good shot. At the very least give him another day for his parity check. I personally think he's town, but even if I had him as null I would tell you Vivax would be a bad shot, especially while StrongAndBig is alive.
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On April 12 2013 11:26 Keirathi wrote: Bleh. I don't really think Sharrant is scum anymore. If he's acting out this whole townie paranoia thing, then he's doing a really good job of it.
But why did he wait until 2 hours before his head was on the line to get active?
Fuck me this game is a mindfuck.
Got tired of people not listening to me, plus if you look at my past games, I always get lazy after a bit. This way people have to listen to me because my flip is going to be in half an hour.
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I'm going to say this again:
Lynch StrongAndBig tomorrow. He showed up tonight not to help town on the lynch, but to see if he was on the chopping block, and when he realized he wasn't he left. He's not trying to figure out alignments because he's the last scum.
Lynch StrongAndBig.
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Good game! Good luck, town!
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