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On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying?
If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:
Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.
I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla.
i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game.
It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi!
@Rayn
Can we please continue this discussion.
This exchange just doesnt sit right with me. + it looks like you are setting yourself up for a CPR request.
If I am reading this correctly, you believe a CPR role is not a bad *TOWN* role if 'used right'.
i.e. it didn't cross your mind, that it would be beneficial to scum; nor a high priority scum pick
How so?
The CPR doctor kills anyone you protect, that isnt attacked that night. As town, this is one of the most WIFOM inducing roles. i.e. Lets protect "XYZ" the town leader, because he surely will be shot.... and if scum doesnt shoot him, you just killed the town leader.
So yes, I would like you to extrapolate on why you think CPR is a beneficial role to town; as opposed to a role worth ensuring scum can not use.
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On April 05 2013 13:55 Keirathi wrote:
Sup fellas, I'm back.
@geript:
Only 1 investigative role and no protection roles in your lists?
That seems like a recipe for disaster.
yeah, cant say im a fan of that list.
Im surprised america has been relegated to a POD C list.
and awesome town roles like the witch seem to have low emphasis and also is in POD C.
Hooker is dangerous with lots of investigative roles though.
I wonder: If you use KP on someone that is infected.. do you still get infected? If so, thats a pretty dangerous role too (even if cancelled by medic protection)
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I still like the idea of parity cop.. even though someone shat on it earlier (cant remember who).
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On April 05 2013 14:09 geript wrote:
Point taken. Perhaps I was thinking that town would be smart enough to not fire on a consistent basis. Probably a bad idea in hindsight. I'd still like to see your list.
Insert Personality 2, and the 5 nukes sl0osh gave out.
If I recall, 4 ppl instantly fired them (all town, launching at town).
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On April 05 2013 14:47 geript wrote:
It's important to balance not shooting with shooting. When everyone shoots, it's likely to be a recipe for disaster.
yeah, thats why for town i like roles like
"capitalist" which wasnt in ya pod.
You get 1 KP, and 3 role-checks. Nice balance.
Either way, can you please reply to my follow question regarding Rayn.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=32#631
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On April 05 2013 14:58 geript wrote:
Sorry missed that question. The more I play the less full 180's seems like 'sure thing scum tells' to me; as a matter of fact, IIRC 90% of the 180's in the last game were done by town. I'd say it's suspicious and worth looking into him more, but there was a quote from the VE/BH mason log that it reminds me of it boiled down to something like "I don't want to push Geript into a corner because the more we do that the likelier he is to look like scum and prevent us from being able to avoid a mislynch. Instead I'd rather try and interact with him on his scumreads etc." I think VE's strategy is a very good one. I think it's suspicious but not to the point that it's a full scum tell for me. I'd much rather try and interact with him in a way to not lose him in case he is town.
Fair points that are applicable to anyone.
Look, though my emphasis is on Rayn, I am not tunneled on him. If he proves his innocence, I will move on.
But having reviewed my interactions with him, I am struggling to see how he can even be a remote town read.
(From my POV) At best he is null.
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As an aside, I think holding off lynching candidates in the top 5 draft is terrible: just because there is a risk of lynching a townie that held an awesome role.
If someone be scummy, you lynch them. Full Stop.
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On April 05 2013 15:09 geript wrote:
Thank you Moc, now I know that you are town.
errmm OK o.0
Will have to talk more about this post-game.
Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you.
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On April 05 2013 15:19 ObviousOne wrote:Hey Mocsta! I'll direct this question to you and Yamato since he's all AMA right now. + Show Spoiler +I have two games played together with Vivax (LX and Fruity) and I was interested in getting a preliminary read on him based on what we've seen so far. I did a (pretty weak) meta case on him in LX and I have a not-entirely-unfamiliar handle on his play, but I wanted to see if my read agreed with yours. Surprisingly he's been talking a lot of sense, but he's got Rayn as his #1 town read according to his filter: On April 05 2013 03:19 Vivax wrote:
Supporting gonzaw and rayn for high picks so far. Objections?
I suggest everyone makes a list of his top 5 townreads to send in highest numbers, and we find the ones most agree on.
If there's someone mostly suggesting scum in his list, we will find out later.
That's why scum will try to stop this plan.
1. Rayn
2. Gonzaw
3. Vivax (duh)
4.-5. : To find out. It seems the reason for this was because Rayn's opinion was that there was a low likelihood of there being scum in the most active/outspoken of townies for D1. This doesn't seem to jive with the concept that people are being active/outspoken about disagreeing that we should have had a plan to begin with. Each time I read the next quote I get more and more confused about what Vivax is actually saying here, to be honest. It seems as though Vivax is reading Rayn as town because Rayn is active/engaged, but Rayn is conversely suspicious of people who are active and engaged. Is this some kind of process of elimination or how did Vivax form his read? I'm not seeing it... On April 05 2013 02:50 Vivax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 02:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:43 Vivax wrote:
It's ok caller, just means you will be the last one along with the designated elected townie mofo you'll contest. Hurt yourself bro.
I'll take a look at your options there. Seems like you like to pick the most active ones, but need to check if they're actually proposing malicious ideas. Disagreed on some stuff with sharrant, for example. It's like he wanted to leave "dangerous" roles open for scum. It doesn't matter if they proposed good or bad ideas. Mafia is probably not going to push any ideas at all (because they all have a backdoor - because there are so many roles). Everyone pushing ideas regardless if they are good/bad are probably town at this point, especially the guys who are pushing ultimately bad ideas. :D I would probably support you as candidate cause I don't think that there can be mostly mafia among the most active and engaged candidates you proposed, so that makes you look quite townie. ##Pick #1: Rayn  I guess I should extend this question to Vivax as well, then. Vivax, does your town read on Rayn waver at all based on what I've demonstrated before (that Rayn's scum reads are all people pushing against the current/trending of town's intentions during pre-picks). Moc, Yam, do you think Vivax' town read of Rayn is unfounded? Maybe you can explain it better than I understand it since I could be misinterpreting it.
I will look into Vivax for you, but will have to read the filter first.
As for rayn, unfortunately, you just blew my mind...
The rayn quotes identify that he thinks non-planners are scummy. Hence, technically, his actions towards RO as weird as they were, could be substantiated as town through that mentality.
e.g.
On April 05 2013 02:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Mafia is probably not going to push any ideas at all (because they all have a backdoor - because there are so many roles). Everyone pushing ideas regardless if they are good/bad are probably town at this point, especially the guys who are pushing ultimately bad ideas. :D
I still want to hear from Rayn regarding my comments on our CPR exchange though.
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On April 05 2013 15:34 Oatsmaster wrote:
1 for 1 trades are never good.
On April 05 2013 14:51 Oatsmaster wrote:
No.
We dont shoot. On April 05 2013 15:24 Oatsmaster wrote:
Policy regarding nukes, if you launch one, you are scum bro.
Oats,
I just find stuff like this really disruptive Oats.
Like fair enough, the points you raise have validity; but the iron fist manner in which you are dropping those points; in my opinion acts to cease discussion.
Your essentially coming across as: my way, or the highway.
As I said before, some of your points this game have been very valid; I just think you need to work more on trying to develop others ideas to a common ground, rather than just.. shit on it.
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On April 05 2013 15:46 geript wrote:
@VE Why are you so quiet? I'm not used to you being so behind the scenes instead of being spammy. I would like to get a read on you.
I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip.
Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that.
I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess....
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On April 05 2013 15:53 Oatsmaster wrote:
EBWOP:
Also I agreed with keirathi on the lynch people who shoot nukes that hit town.
So Im not shutting down discussion clearly...
Those posts were just a quick grab.. Im not going to go through 5 posts to get that point across.
Regardless of policy or whatever.. what makes you the judge with the hammer to enforce what is policy and what isnt?
The point is to raise an idea, and discuss the validity and let it be agreed by town in general to become policy.
That is the approach Keirathi is taking.. he is assertive without being "my way or the highway".
After all, your vote does not represent the vote of town.
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On April 05 2013 15:52 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:50 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 15:46 geript wrote:
@VE Why are you so quiet? I'm not used to you being so behind the scenes instead of being spammy. I would like to get a read on you. I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip. Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that. I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess.... Err what? How is that in any way a scumslip :o You're seeing things that aren't there, IMO lol.
Perhaps, the only reason I dont think its a slip is because its a common saying; and perhaps used in the wrong context.
It still does infer he is aware VE is active in a QT.
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On April 05 2013 15:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Feeling like XXXIX now Mocsta, slamming me for 'stifling' discussion.
Yeah, I disagree. I think I'm taking a completely different tact to bridging our inherent differences of opinion.
Regardless, I am not slamming you.
If you read carefully what I said.. I think you have valid opinions. I think you are just being too forceful about pushing them.
Just like you think roles should be chosen as fun.. others vehemently want to win at all costs - and hence are willing to plan more.
Right/Wrong; good policy/bad policy is a matter of opinion based on the eye of the beholder. That is all.
=====
Or paraphrased: I feel like your a Jehovah Witness knocking on my door to try and convert me.
Just give me the pitch, and leave. I can come to a decision myself.
*Sorry to any Jehovah Witness playing in this game* 
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On April 05 2013 16:02 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:57 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 15:52 Keirathi wrote:On April 05 2013 15:50 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 15:46 geript wrote:
@VE Why are you so quiet? I'm not used to you being so behind the scenes instead of being spammy. I would like to get a read on you. I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip. Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that. I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess.... Err what? How is that in any way a scumslip :o You're seeing things that aren't there, IMO lol. Perhaps, the only reason I dont think its a slip is because its a common saying; and perhaps used in the wrong context. It still does infer he is aware VE is active in a QT. You mean imply, not infer. You inferred based on his implication But I digress... I don't even think it implies that. I mean, I guess I can see how you can read it and think that, but in context the implication to me is that VE is not being out in the open with his thoughts, and instead of hiding in the background without particularly doing anything. Which I can agree with, but I don't think it really means anything yet.
Regardless of English semantics.
we are saying the same thing.
I agree, that was his intention - as the saying is common, and perhaps used incorrectly.
I think more of Geript than to scum slip and actually imply VE is busy in the QT - so easily.
Regardless, I didnt want to make an inference so early on; so went straight to the source.
The whole question is voided now, but it was never a big deal in the first place. <3
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On April 05 2013 16:02 Keirathi wrote:
and instead of hiding in the background without particularly doing anything.
This is what he meant.
But "behind the scenes" typically refers to a context based on manipulation beyond common knowledge.
Or whatever.. as I said, we saying the same thing.. Lets move on pl0x
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On April 05 2013 16:11 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 16:10 Mocsta wrote:
The whole question is voided now, but it was never a big deal in the first place. <3 Which brings me to another question: Why even bring it up then? Like, what purpose did it serve, if you already didn't think it was a scumslip?
The purpose I suggested one sentence above that line.
I didnt want to make an inference so early on, so went straight to the source.
If we start filling in the gaps now; we will never figure out the scum team.. that is what they want us to do, and how we become tunneled.
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On April 05 2013 16:20 yamato77 wrote:
I encourage all of town to do this, actually, because I'm gonna push for his lynch D1.
I already can endorse that.
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On April 05 2013 15:19 ObviousOne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey Mocsta! I'll direct this question to you and Yamato since he's all AMA right now. I have two games played together with Vivax (LX and Fruity) and I was interested in getting a preliminary read on him based on what we've seen so far. I did a (pretty weak) meta case on him in LX and I have a not-entirely-unfamiliar handle on his play, but I wanted to see if my read agreed with yours. Surprisingly he's been talking a lot of sense, but he's got Rayn as his #1 town read according to his filter: On April 05 2013 03:19 Vivax wrote:
Supporting gonzaw and rayn for high picks so far. Objections?
I suggest everyone makes a list of his top 5 townreads to send in highest numbers, and we find the ones most agree on.
If there's someone mostly suggesting scum in his list, we will find out later.
That's why scum will try to stop this plan.
1. Rayn
2. Gonzaw
3. Vivax (duh)
4.-5. : To find out. It seems the reason for this was because Rayn's opinion was that there was a low likelihood of there being scum in the most active/outspoken of townies for D1. This doesn't seem to jive with the concept that people are being active/outspoken about disagreeing that we should have had a plan to begin with. Each time I read the next quote I get more and more confused about what Vivax is actually saying here, to be honest. It seems as though Vivax is reading Rayn as town because Rayn is active/engaged, but Rayn is conversely suspicious of people who are active and engaged. Is this some kind of process of elimination or how did Vivax form his read? I'm not seeing it... On April 05 2013 02:50 Vivax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 02:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:43 Vivax wrote:
It's ok caller, just means you will be the last one along with the designated elected townie mofo you'll contest. Hurt yourself bro.
I'll take a look at your options there. Seems like you like to pick the most active ones, but need to check if they're actually proposing malicious ideas. Disagreed on some stuff with sharrant, for example. It's like he wanted to leave "dangerous" roles open for scum. It doesn't matter if they proposed good or bad ideas. Mafia is probably not going to push any ideas at all (because they all have a backdoor - because there are so many roles). Everyone pushing ideas regardless if they are good/bad are probably town at this point, especially the guys who are pushing ultimately bad ideas. :D I would probably support you as candidate cause I don't think that there can be mostly mafia among the most active and engaged candidates you proposed, so that makes you look quite townie. ##Pick #1: Rayn I guess I should extend this question to Vivax as well, then. Vivax, does your town read on Rayn waver at all based on what I've demonstrated before (that Rayn's scum reads are all people pushing against the current/trending of town's intentions during pre-picks). Moc, Yam, do you think Vivax' town read of Rayn is unfounded? Maybe you can explain it better than I understand it since I could be misinterpreting it.
Matey, I did not forget about you.
I am in agreement with your thoughts. His filter reads nice at the start; and then has some peculiarities where I can not follow the logic.
e.g. the rationale for Rayn as a #1 pick.
Or that, he agrees with Rayns top 5.. yet his own Top 5 only has Rayn as a commanality??
This is nitpicking, but even small comments like
On April 05 2013 03:37 Vivax wrote:
Sadly, RO's wasn't a scumclaim. He could just shut up or lie about agreeing with sending in the right numbers while he doesn't. Why is it sad Rayn was going off nothing? etc
So, I think it is best for Vivax to come in and explain himself.
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On April 05 2013 16:20 yamato77 wrote:
please do look at Meapak and give a thought on his alignment.
The other guy i want to see *A LOT* more from is Bill Murray.
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On April 05 2013 20:41 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 13:45 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying?
If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:
Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.
I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla.
i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game.
It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! @RaynCan we please continue this discussion. This exchange just doesnt sit right with me. + it looks like you are setting yourself up for a CPR request. If I am reading this correctly, you believe a CPR role is not a bad *TOWN* role if 'used right'. i.e. it didn't cross your mind, that it would be beneficial to scum; nor a high priority scum pick How so?The CPR doctor kills anyone you protect, that isnt attacked that night. As town, this is one of the most WIFOM inducing roles. i.e. Lets protect "XYZ" the town leader, because he surely will be shot.... and if scum doesnt shoot him, you just killed the town leader. So yes, I would like you to extrapolate on why you think CPR is a beneficial role to town; as opposed to a role worth ensuring scum can not use. Okay. We continue with this. ^^ CPR is not a bad town role if used correctly (shoot scum or not use it at all). I know it's beneficial to scum also, never said i don't think so. I don't think CPR should never be used as doctor.Looks like we are thinking the same way about that role. I however do not understand why do you think i think CPR is not a scary scum role? If i say it can be a good town role it doesn't mean it can't be a good scum role too. I assume never = ever
If so, that clarifies everything.
As for your last point, it was based on you repeatedly engaging me to say it was only town you were referring to.
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EPT
