EPTBoardwalk Empire Mafia: Pick Your Power - Page 2
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 08:16 Mocsta wrote: Its association because there is no flip. The association was, if Geript is scum; it goes someways towards implicating Keirathi as associated scum (you know, the stuff that was taken precedence over the past 2/3 pages, originated by Caller) But I'm not using it as an association case at all, my main crux of the case was the post I mentioned which has no bearing on Keirathi or Caller or any of that. Look at that post alone and tell me if you see any town motivation in making it. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On April 06 2013 08:29 Bill Murray wrote: Artanis is scum with Keirathi GG I'm gonna put in as much effort as you just did. Bill Murray is scum. Now can you comment on the Geript case or are you going to be useless? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 08:27 Mocsta wrote: Geript is a difficult player to work with. + Show Spoiler [Geript fallacies] + His second game on this forum (Mafia LX).. lets just say.. post-game, people decided he needs to be wrapped in cotton-wool. Geript is not stupid; is aware of this perception; and realises to play it to his strengths. Geript also has more balls than ppl give him credit for. The other hard part is: his play is still developing. He just played scum; so has more insight in how to blend in as scum; and also what he values are being a good townie. I just wanted to point out here some context for a publicly considered "fragile" player - a reputation I dont think he deserves. I think there is merit in what you have pointed out, and am paying close attention to his responses. I also find it curious that when defending Rayn, he likes to point out validity in VE strategy as a basis. Soon he proceeds to call out VE for "working behind the scenes", and then later calls him out again for not scum hunting. P.S. its sat morning for me, so I will be back in 10-12hrs. So he's playing to his strengths by saying things that have no town motivation? Please explain to me how that works. Are you saying that like Vivax he rolls scum in 100% of his games regardless of his role PM? If he's so aware of his perception, why does his posting history look so awful? You've basically said in this post that he's better than people give him credit for, yet his post history reeks of scum. If he's good as you say he is then this should ring even more alarm bells. The point regarding VE you make only compounds that, so that makes me wonder. Why so noncommittal? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On April 06 2013 08:41 Mocsta wrote: Stop over analysing the key point i said is "i think there is merit in what you have pointed out" The other stuff was saying, I am not confident on giving a firm read on him due to my knowledge of his play. Henceforth, the watching closely. Dude, whether I agree with you or not; doesnt make me town or scum. It's not the agreeing or disagreeing part that's important, it's how you get to that conclusion and your conclusion didn't line up with the rest of your post. You said you (partially) agree with what I've pointed out, add more to the case, yet only say you'll "watch him closely". I was expecting a more firm conclusion given the rest of the post. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On April 06 2013 08:50 Mocsta wrote: I cant give him a firm conclusion yet. Its still Day 0; and I need to see him scum hunt more. As I said, there are points of merits; that I want to see responses to. Look, you either think I am scum, or you dont. If you dont think I am scum, than this convo is donig nothing but shit up the thread. If you do think I am scum, and being wishy washy.. by all means, continue. I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 08:57 Restraining Order wrote: I'm not particularily interested in lynching geript. I'm null on him, and he's not a good lynch in terms of policy either. Can you please explain the post I've mentioned countless times from a town perspective? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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Then you'd be null again. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 09:25 geript wrote: On phone. Artanis can you explain what you find so scummy about my filter if it is not just the quotes you posted in your mini case? Asking people whether you can sheep them isn't exactly the height of taking responsibility. Antagonizing people that refuse to play along with your plan because they want to approach the game in a different way, single line comments about players you find suspicious then asking other people what they think about them rather than fleshing out your own opinion, all the while focussing on your own plan. I'd rather you reply to the mini case I made though as it contains the stronger points. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On April 06 2013 09:36 gonzaw wrote: Artanis, do you believe your own case and "push" of geript....or are you joking? What does it look like? I'm not joking. How about 'enlightening' me if it's such a 'joke' to you? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote: @ArtanisXp I would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] + On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully. As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY? Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] + On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote: Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play? No, I don't flip-flop on your alignment as all. I'm very specific in what my conclusion is and my thought process towards it is explained. I could've just posted that I thought you looked town now, and you'd ask me "why?" and then I'd say the same thing. I just saved us two posts of meaningless banter. Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. Because you asked me a very specific question, which was my reasoning why I was questioning you. I'm explaining my thought process so you can follow it. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 07 2013 15:52 gonzaw wrote: 1) Introduction: Ah yes. I've been keeping an eye out on Artanis for a while. I've noticed him when I made this post. What I had noticed, was how Artanis tried to be part of discussions. Here's the thing. Players like yamato, rayn, maybe Sharrant, etc, started discussing how to make draft picks. Other players straight up didn't say much about it or said they didn't care much, like Keirathi (I believe), Meapak, etc. The "active" ones that were discussing things though, did so in a productive manner. They proposed plans, they discussed them, they argued with each other about their benefits and criticisms of others. They posted thoughts on other people's plans and thoughts. Most importantly though: They tried to put effort in their posts, while still trying to be productive. Artanis certainly did seem to put effort, but didn't seem to try and be productive How is pushing my RNG plan not productive? I kept bringing it up even when people ignored me because I thought it was a good plan. I pushed it when people weren't discussing it and asked people how they felt about it. I commented on the Yamato plan and why I disagreed then improved upon it. You're giving a very distorted image of my day-1 play here. So let's start this kay? Bring it. 2) "Hiding in plain sight" via setup discussion: One of the reasons I had an early town read on Meapak....was just how he took the words out of my mouth regarding Artanis. First, here are some posts for reference (you can always just check his filter, 1st page): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#191 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#195 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#196 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=13#256 Here's the thing. These posts just scream "I'm trying to contribute with setup talk!" to me. For instance, take yamato's filter as comparison. See how he approaches the discussion about role picking. Now check how Artanis approaches said discussion. Artanis seems to be putting up an appearance. He seems to be posting just for the sake of discussing setup stuff. He posts just to be active, or so it seems. He even tries to come up with a "plan" of his own, with the RNG stuff! Scum love to do this as well. I'm not trying to contribute, I am contributing. So contributing makes me scum? Okay. I don't see the putting up an appearance at all. I read the thread, had an idea and pushed for it. I'll go back and mention something I've posted before: When I was talking about those "possible first scums", I was talking about Artanis primarily. This is a fact: Artanis chimed in with the setup discussion, and even proposed a "pro-town plan", yet he had absolutely no impact in the game at all. He was just a passenger in the thread discussion about plans, coincidentally something scum love to do. Compare that to other player's, like yamato, Mocsta, rayn, or geript, who cared about the discussion and the outcome from it. You can't say the same thing with Artanis There are some people that acted similarly regarding plans, but not to the extent Artanis did IMO, and even some of those have other qualities about their play that make you have a completely different read on them (austin, Keirathi and maybe even RO spring to mind) So I'm scum for contributing but not getting my idea through despite asking numerous times. You could also consider the option that everyone wanted to get their own ideas through, plus the distraction of interaction between people who said they didn't like plans and just wanted to pick their favourite roles made it so that no plan actually got through, not just mine. I really don't see how you can hold that against me. 3) Unnecessary complaints that happen out of place: Here I find an unnecessary complaint about the thread. Unnecessary in the sense that he seems to mention just to mention it. It serves little purpose other than complaint. They seem out of place and happen too often as well. This seems a little fake to me, because I don't think a townie would spend so much time to complain about it in so many different places. Nobody else did, bar maybe Vivax at some points (but those didn't feel so out of place either, specially since at least Vivax expanded a little bit on why he was complaining). He's just complaining, specially those last 2 posts, just for the sake of complaining, and most importantly, for the sake of appearing he's active and contributing something. By doing stuff like this, he's hiding in plain sight. That last post makes me a little suspicious about him. Why? First he discredits what's going on in the thread by complaining about it being filler. Then he posts a wishy washy read on Oats. Then he posts some fluff about the draft plans, and even mentions his plan even more. Just look at that, "...the RNG option,.. which I still believe is the strongest...." . Even when talking about the plans he has to mention how HIS plan is the best, he has to mention how much he contributed to the thread by posting a super-duper plan, right!!? Yes, I am complaining because I hate big games and I got busy since the time I signed up. So you can see me pushing my plan here once again, yet I'm supposedly just talking to put up an appearance. The pushing of my idea has a very clear objective. I want people to talk about it. Those 2 last posts of his are total fluff, specially with some of his reads (on Oats, sinani and VE). Those posts scream "I'm trying to cram as much stuff as possible that makes others think I'm contributing!". He crams so much bullshit in so little space, yet he has no time to do anything else? He has little time to comment on other stuff, or interact with people, be part of discussions, etc. I've found scum do this the most. They have a single post where they cram some shit into it trying to compass different topics, posting fluff and filler, then just let it be that. They don't expand on those points, don't interact with others, don't participate in discussions willingly and without pressure, etc. With those last 2 posts Artanis does this, which I find suspicious. I thought scum wants to say very little with a lot of words. Guess it's the other way around when you have a scumread on someone. I'm being as informative in as little words as possible because A) I'm lazy and B) The thread is already cluttered up enough. Also, what I've found from post-game talk, you can make your point very clearly with a short post and convince others with it, like Syllogism did in Fruity Mafia. It takes up much less energy and you can convey your thoughts just as well. That I'm not very good at it yet just means I'm not experienced with it yet. 4) The geript case: At this time I think it was when I was telling myself "Okay, Artanis seems suspicious to me, but I'll wait before pressuring him and see what he does"... ...and that "case" is what he does indeed. Firstly, I don't know if I am the only one, but when I was reading the thread I had the feeling geript was likely town, with the way he proposed his plan, the behaviour of his, etc (right now I can't really post many reasons because I had these feelings some days ago and haven't checked geript since, but these were indeed my feelings then). Second, let's dwell into the case. That first part is horrendous. Even worse than VE's "RO called Oats out therefore is scum!" part from his case. So, let's see if I get this straight: geript has specific knowledge of Mocsta's town play he uses as a heuristic he knows himself and nobody else does. He mentions this to Mocsta so Mocsta knows he's watching him. Then mocsta does this apparently, and geript tells him he "passed the test". Basically, geript knows something Mocsta always does as town, and thus is waiting for him to do it this game, to get a better read on him. Sounds pretty normal right? And at worst null, right? Well apparently not to Artanis Look at his god damn formulation and tell me that isn't wishy washy as fuck. Seriously, read over it and say it in your head. It put up some serious red flags in my head, and I didn't see a town explanation. I still find Geript's explanation for it mediocre, but his general attitude towards the case as well as his other posts since then have made my suspicions wane. I also presented my suspicions a bit stronger than they were because I wanted people to actually pay attention to them. That's something I've learned from Promethelax when he convinced me to post for Vivax after I had called Vivax town in Empire Mini Mafia II. This post specifically still haunts me, and it's something I want to learn from. I just can't believe Artanis is serious with that accusation. It seems he saw something random from geript and decided to use it against him without even thinking about it, it's the only explanation I can find. His next part in the case is something irrelevant about some comment geript made about setup speculation (which is and should be null at worst) If that comment doesn't put red flags in your mind then I'm not sure what else I can say. It definitely did for me, which is why I confronted people with it every time. And...that's it? That's his "case"? Oh wait, he mentions that "geript thinks Mocsta is town" bit again, and even mentions the "scumslip" (which is obviously not a scumslip for anyone with 2 brain cells). The "scumslip" bit was just padding to the case, it wasn't the main focal point. It's the said post that I found very odd. I did half-seriously ask him if he was joking...to see if it maybe was a "bait" case to get info on geript... ...but it wasn't, meaning Artanis seemingly believed his own case, and I can't believe a town Artanis would do so. But that's wrong. It IS something I believed in. 5) Aggressive "fake" behaviour: After he posts his case, his "push" of geript seems too fake too me. He seems aggressive out of nowhere for no reason He's being needlessly aggressive in my mind. The way he posts seems fake too me as well. He seems to antagonize everything, specially when he starts arguing with Mocsta He doesn't show a mentality of "I want to figure out the alignment of this player", he shows an mentality of total confrontation and wanting to paint geript as scum no matter what Mocsta keeps arguing with Artanis about stuff, yet Artanis can only think of how to make geript look as scum even more. It's called pressure. You might've heard of it. If I posted "hm, I still kinda think Geript is scum but I'm doubting about it." would there be any pressure left? No, he could sit back, relax, and answer things thought out thoroughly. I wanted him to react with his gut, and he showed a mindset that made me think twice. There's also this. I share yamato's opinion here, and I think some others did as well I'd say other townies did as well. Artanis didn't.....let's take a guess why shall we? He then backs off geript, but I think it's weak. He spent so much time and effort discrediting and accusing geript, to then just brush off saying "I still don't like your posts pre-VE case Geript..." ? That's not how he came out at all, he didn't "not like geript's posts", he apparently thought geript was obvious scum incarnate and went guns blazing against him. That just doesn't feel right and seems like a half-assed way to back off geript See the part before. 6) Other stuff: Some other stuff that make me wary....is basically how everybody is ignoring him. He is indeed flying under the radar, and was until Meapak called him out. Yet even Meapak has "forgotten" about him now Not only that, right now there are eight different players being voted, yet nobody votes Artanis, yet nobody even talks about him. I'd think scum would love throwing some dirt on town Artanis now to create even more chaos and have even more "candidates" in the table to confuse town...yet they don't. He's also AFK now for like 24 hours. I won't take that much into consideration since it must have been some IRL issue. You may realize a similar method I did in my last game. Last game (MTG Mini Mafia 2), I had a scum read on Aperture, but basically didn't mention him at all for a while and put him under 0 pressure for 24 or so hours (or more). I saw that nobody mentioned him, nobody casted suspicion on him, and he kept flying under the radar not contributing and doing shit. That instantly told me he was scum (if he was town he wouldn't do shit all when under no pressure, and if he did, scum would love to cast suspicion on him, which they didn't). I tried doing something similar here. That method worked out in the past (Aperture was scum)....I'll let you figure out the rest. Yeah, scum never mentioning their scumbuddies is a great way to play a game. WIFOM at its finest folks. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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Artanis[Xp]
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 07 2013 21:54 Vivax wrote: Artanis still think geript is scum? Comments on VE and his RO case? I still hate his earlier posts but everything since that has been good so I have no intention of lynching him at the moment. His case on RO is meh. I like the point regarding town reads that he'd suddenly like to get lynched, but that's about it for that case for me, and RO responds alright to it. He's also paranoid of everyone and everything which is generally a town trait. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 07 2013 22:09 Oatsmaster wrote: Artanis do you have reads? defending yourself is fine and all but I prefer reads. I'm going to spit through this game more thoroughly tonight and give you something more in depth then. On April 07 2013 22:36 Mocsta wrote: Not really. Other than: Its classic scum retort. Blow out of proportion the small details and glance over the important stuff. What important stuff didn't I address then? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 07 2013 22:43 Mocsta wrote: I take that response as an admission to blowing the small stuff out of proportion  BTW. I'm not here to convince u that u r scum. And ur reply reenforced what I already was sure of. U r scum So this discourse is going no where. P.s. everyone prefers townies that scumhunt instead of contribute by defending. Best of luck with that. gnite. You're taking it entirely the wrong way. I'm asking you what according to you I didn't properly address. I think my response was fine. Also, if you're actually interested in finding out my alignment then you'd be continuing in this discourse. The only people who are sure of alignments are scum, so my question is: Why do you not want to continue? I'll get to that tonight. Right now I plan on doing other things. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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I don't think Geript is scum at this point. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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VisceraEyes Defensive play, agrees with a lot of things in the thread. Seems complacent. The only game I remember that I played with VE was LI in which he was in everyone's face as scum. I also observed his play in Hydra Mini Mafia which he gave up in as soon as he got caught. This game feels like neither. He created a bad case on RO. Rereading Geript's case on him however does show a few valid points that point towards VE being scum which he never answered. Rather than defending himself, VE started attacking people that jumped on the wagon which isn't alignment indicative to me, as it's a both a valid way of finding scum and an easy way to dodge responsibility. However, I don't like his 180 going from his initial read of RO to Deconduo over one post that really didn't mean much. Leaning scum. Vivax Vivax is Vivax. In all previous games I've played with him he's rolled scum, but sometimes the host accidentally flipped him green. This game I feel like he's playing better than any game he's had before. There's still Vivax moments of trying to be right where everyone else is wrong, but he's being cooperative. I see no reason why he wouldn't stick to his unreadable meta if he rolled scum. Town. Restraining Order The case on him was weak. Has done fairly little, but nothing that suggests a scum or a town mindset. Null on him. Keirathi Seems willing to want to figure the game out. Small thing that bothered me was that he had a plan regarding people picking roles to counter scumpicks, yet also advocating that everyone just picks the roles they want. Other than that, he's had a very constructive attitude and has been scumhunting and paranoid. Likely town. Palmar Has a hilarious plan, never actually goes anywhere with it. Trolls around all game. Throws a few accusations but never substantiates them. Says BM is scum but never goes anywhere with it, then jumps on the VE wagon as soon as he notices no one else is putting in the effort to get BM lynched. After checking out RED Team's Prize (where he was blue) he always pushed his own ideas. He asked people what they thought, but nothing that came close to sheeping. He's a lot more disinterested than what I've seen in that game. Leaning scum. Shelvocke His filter is fairly empty. His D1 plan was "pick whatever you like" then never actually pushed it. Rather than contributing to plans, he just calls all of them bad. Spends a lot of time on setup talk then jumps on the VE wagon as well. He never replies to the case made on him or any suspicion laid on him at all. Avoiding responsibility for his reads. There's really nothing in his filter to suggest towniness. Scum. Raynpelikoneet Contradicted my RNG plan without a real reason. Nominates himself as towniest very quickly. Calls everyone that pushed ideas town. Randomly passes by scumreads whilst only having talked about setup before then, doesn't explain why. Massive amount of oneliners that clutter up the thread and say very little/nothing. His paranoia and flailing about in the last two pages of his filter make me hesitant, but still leaning scum. Strongandbig Basically did nothing until mid D1, but I like this post. Pointing a lot of fingers at people for good reasons. Leaning town. Deconduo Playing a fairly timid game, but I can follow his thought process very well. It's hard to really put a finger to, but all his posts speak to me from a town viewpoint and VE's reason for voting Deconduo feels weak. I'm willing to vote for VE, Palmar, Shevlocke and Raynpelikoneet, with a preference for Shevlocke. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 08 2013 16:56 Mocsta wrote: Artanis[Xp] Want to give a read on Vivax pl0x. Even though this comment was a figure of speech, Vivax is in this game. I don't think Vivax is scum. I said that in my read summary earlier today. Also anyone that thinks I'm more suspicious for the flip (I'm looking at you Yamato) is being dumb. Assassin seems like the only way to kill town in this way. Can't be NRA since Gonzaw was still talking about who to hit, and the day vig requires you to post in thread. So apparently, scum knew that Gonzaw was a Jack. He also had a lot of town presence and discussion formed around him. How is killing a town leader with a strong role not reward enough on its own? I doubt it has anything to do with whether he was on the right track or not, it's simply a good kill that will disorganize town and have them waffling about stuff that isn't scumhunting. Shelvocke unvoting me out of nowhere.. is strange. I can't wrap my head around it. Why do so when I was his main scumread? Regarding OO's meta case, it's pretty awful. Correlation does not imply causation. My scum game is similar to this game because it was also a large game and I hate large games. With small games it's much easier to get a feel for everyone in the game. The reason I'm posting less is because I'm less motivated in large games, not because I'm scum. Yamato, you just said that the death of Gonzaw doesn't guarantee anything but the death of a town player. Then why was your first response "Now we definitely kill Artanis"? You're drawing conclusions from his death instantly, yet you showed unwillingness to draw conclusions from it just now. | ||
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I've skimmed through it and it was unappealing. 
