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On March 28 2013 07:01 Hapahauli wrote: Anyway atleast we have a flip to parse things over. And by that I mean that Yamato should be lynched tomorrow. I agree with this.
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Smurf:
3 particular things make him scum:
1.
On March 26 2013 12:37 InsertSmurfHere wrote: Is he an idiot as town, too?
From your filter, that is what I surmise is your opinion of him already. If that's the case, I guess you're content to let him lurk away the rest of day 1 as he intends?
Or...? If Smurf is Yamato, he has played at least 2 games with a town DI (British 1 and Personality 2) and thus cannot simply claim ignorance of how DI plays as town. Even if he can be forgiven the remarkable oversight of not looking at DI's townplay, his excuse of ignorance here is a lie.
2. His scumreads: All 3 of his scumreads throughout the game:Grackaroni, Cora and Nisani. I painted Cora green, because I doubt this is a power play by the scumteam to claim mason. However, most strikingly, look how easily he jumps onto the Nisani is scum wagon. He never even mentions Nisani as a scumread until his completely irrational defense of prplhz (see point 3), when this suddenly happens: + Show Spoiler [prplhz town] +On March 27 2013 15:04 InsertSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 14:49 Hapahauli wrote:On March 27 2013 14:47 InsertSmurfHere wrote:On March 27 2013 14:35 Hapahauli wrote: If anything, Nomination Mini supports my case. If you think low activity is alignment indicative out of prplhz, you're wrong. While it's true that he's done little this game, he isn't acting trollish or distant with town when he is posting, as he does normally when he's mafia. He posts little and rarely as both alignments. Have you read prplzh filter? Go and read it, then get back to me and tell me he's not "distant." I've heard of a ton of meta arguments, but this is the most retarded one. Prplzh has posted next to nothing, has soft-pushed half the thread, hasn't made a single original contribution, and somehow you arrive at the fact that he's not scum. It's quite easy. Read yamato's analysis of prplhz's meta from Nomination. When you look at his filter from LIX, it is blatantly antagonistic with town and completely uninvolved. Do these posts read trollish to you? Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 05:09 prplhz wrote:@sinani206 Why haven't you been playing mafia for ages and what made you suddenly come back to this game? @Acrofales What you think about Palmar? What did Nisani201 say to make you think that he is scum? Just a line or two, I'm not a big fan of huge posts. And yes, I did read your filter so please bear with me if there was something I didn't understand and say it one more time @InsertSmurfHere On March 26 2013 23:38 InsertSmurfHere wrote: [...] Prplhz I have seen be lurky early as town, but by the end of day 1 I expect to know his alignment. He's good enough as town to put forth effort justifying his suspicions. [...]
That can't be true unless you're like ... no, that can't be true. Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:19 prplhz wrote:On March 27 2013 11:16 Grackaroni wrote:On March 27 2013 11:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: Nobody is going to vote OO/Oats/Smurf either way whatever i say. And Grack has not dona anythig useful. I would be okay switching into one of those three or Nisani/prplhz, but nobody is going to listen to me anyways so what the hell. Better to trust people i trust are town then. lol see what the hell is this. I thought he was town but nobody is going to listen to me so now I'll just vote for town. Some people do that when they get frustrated. I think he's frustrated and that's why he's doing it. @Palmar Why is Acrofales town? Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:29 prplhz wrote: If anybody else knows why Acrofales is town I'm also interested in their answers. Here he's clearly following a line of thought with a few people. While his interaction is minimal, it is far from being distant. This does not read like the mafia prplhz I know. What concerns me about all this is how lazy you are with this push on prplhz. I really think you don't know him well if you think low activity = scum in his case. What is MOST concerning, however, is how easily Nisani jumps in with you. Observe: Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 12:41 Nisani201 wrote: I don't understand why we're still taking about this meta stuff. Just because OO’s play style is different in this game than another doesn't make him scum. In fact, it means absolutely nothing.
I agree that prplhz has been flying under the radar and he could be scum. I want to hear other's thoughts on it though. Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 13:10 Nisani201 wrote: Alright, throwing my vote on prplhz.
Not gonna do the ## thing here though because I'm on my tablet. Two posts, barely mentions prplhz, and he's on the wagon. Regardless of prplhz's alignment, this looks terrible. He's even less concerned with figuring out the game than prplhz appears to be. So... the MOST concerting part of the prplhz case is how easily Nisani jumps on the wagon. So suddenly Nisani has been bombarded to scum, as part of the whole prplhz = town crusade.
From that point onwards he never even questions anything else and just blindly wants to lynch Nisani.
3. Irrational defense of prlhz. I would quote posts, but it shat up the thread for about 3 pages. I don't even think this says anything about prplhz's alignment. I can see a scum doing this for a townie (defend the innocent for townie points, when no scumbuddy is in danger of being lynched) or a scumbuddy (given that the alternative at the time was my push on Nisani, which he promptly sheeped he could have been defending his buddy), but the whole thing feels like Smurf had made up his mind before even starting to post on what prplhz's alignment was and was going to defend that stance to the death. And while some of the points he made make sense, when I looked at prplhz's filter at the time, it just read like a scum filter, so it's the complete lack of DOUBT about the alignment that strikes me. That is not the critical mindset of a townie.
TLDR: lied to excuse his shoddy case, no critical mindset when analysing players and has only wanted to lynch townies. Verdict: scum. Now lets move onto everybody else.
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On March 28 2013 07:07 cDgCorazon wrote: I also caught half of the scum team in Personality. If you can't remember that. While I don't want to throw oil on the fire, both you and Vivax keep priding yourselves of that, when NONE of the scumteam felt threatened by you at all at any point.
When you have 0 credibility with town because you post like an irate chipmunk, you cannot actually CATCH scum, regardless of how good your reads are.
This game I feel you're doing a far better job, btw. You just have to learn to focus and concentrate on convincing others of your reads, rather than pointlessly arguing with your scumspect, which leads to tunneling and nobody taking you seriously.
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On March 28 2013 07:27 marvellosity wrote: I'm also probably off until tomorrow. Not sure when I'm going to have time to work on the game properly because I have a chess thingy tomorrow evening. There's too many people I'm leaning town on at the moment, which is partly down to the fact that 2 of my 3 orange reads have flipped/claimed. I don't understand how you have too many town reads in this game. I literally have 3 town reads I have any confidence in, and another 3 players I am willing to consider town, because I don't think they play like this as scum.
That leaves you, Sinani, raynpelikoneet, prplhz, SnB, Smurf and OO in the null to scum range. I am really dying to know how you have any kind of confident town range on them.
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OO, you ask so many broad, and leading questions, that you make it incredibly hard to answer them. I have made it quite clear what I found scummy about Nisani's case on me and it WASN'T because it was on me, it was because at the time I saw this: there was a blatant lie, which served one single purpose: to make me look like scum.
I still have no clue what Nisani was thinking when he made the case or how he could say that my initial posts were contributions while simultaneously stating the direct contradiction of their content, but it's water under the bridge: I was clearly wrong and if I play with Nisani again I will take this into account.
The mere fact that YOU and quite a few other people agreed with me on it should indicate that I was clearly not stupid to think this way about the post, so calling it a bad OMGUS case is wrong.
As for why Nisani (and not someone else)? Because I thought he was scum. The fact that you even ask this question seems to indicate you have presupposed a scum motive for me making a case and are then asking why Acro, as scum, is making a case against Nisani of all possible targets. There is no answer, because I'm not scum. I was just wrong.
*Could I have voted for other "targets" of opportunity at the time?" --- I'm still not scum, so there are no targets of opportunity, just people I suspect are scum and people who I think are town.
*Was it a solitary tunnel? No. I think that is clear from my filter. I'll let others be the judge of whether I played a good game or not, but I don't think I was stuck in a rut where I overanalysed Nisani and never considered anybody else. But by and large, Nisani looked scummiest to me.
Also, you won't find scum by trying to ask why a lynch was pushed. You're far better off trying to figure out who had no decent reasons to be on it, but got the townie lynched anyway. People like Smurf, who jumped on halfway through with a shoddy reason. I am going to spend the rest of the day looking at the people in my null-scum list who I haven't properly analyzed yet. Quite a few of them had really dodgy reasons for hopping wagons.
Finally, can future vote tallies please be in the order of voting, rather than seemingly randomized? It's important to know who voted early, who hammered, and what votes in the middle were safe and which caused momentum swings. So here is the actual votecount: + Show Spoiler + prplhz: raynpelikoneet, StrongandBig, Hapahauli, Nisani201, Keirathi raynpelikoneet: marvellosity, cDgCorazon marvellosity: Dandel Ion, Acrofales ObviousOne: Hapahauli, marvellosity, Palmar, raynpelikoneet, raynpelikoneet Grackaroni: Palmar, Hapahauli, Keirathi, ObviousOne, prplhz, raynpelikoneet Palmar: Keirathi, Acrofales, Oatsmaster Keirathi: Dandel Ion, marvellosity, Oatsmaster, ObviousOne, Nisani201, Palmar, raynpelikoneet, strongandbig Dandel Ion: InsertSmurfHere Acrofales: Nisani201 Nisani201 (13): Acrofales, Sinani206, marvellosity, Acrofales, prplhz, raynpelikoneet, cDgCorazon, InsertSmurfHere, raynpelikoneet, marvellosity, Keirathi, ObviousOne, Oatsmaster, Palmar, Strongandbig, Hapahauli Strongandbig: Oatsmaster InsertSmurfHere (1): Dandel Ion, cDgCorazon cDgCorazon: InsertSmurfHere Sinani206 (1): Hapahauli, Palmar, Palmar, ObviousOne, Oatsmaster, Nisani201
Everybody after Keirathi and ObviousOne is basically just hopping on "for consolidation" and their votes should be taken with a grain of salt. The interesting votes that I feel were cast without any real motivation are prplhz, Cora, Smurf and rayn.
Out of these I find Cora's to flow the most naturally: he mentions him a few times as scummy and then decides pushing his own read is unfeasible and hops on the Nisani wagon.
Prplhz is half-on half-off the wagon the entire time: he ninja-votes, he says he doesn't see what makes Nisani scum, then says Nisani is probably scum and then says Nisani's meta is unreadable and he might be town. And none of that seems well reasoned through. It seems more like a sheep vote than anything else, which is strange, because he'd be sheeping me and he seems to think I am scum.
Smurf I have discussed already. I think he's scum, so that right there is the justification for him being on the wagon.
Rayn is also a weird vote: he mentions Nisani quite a few times in a list of people he feels are scummy, but never really does anything about it until he feels he has to consolidate (way earlier than he actually has to). He then hops onto the Keirathi wagon, once again to consolidate: this time he hops OFF the leading wagon in order to consolidate, which just increases the chance of a no-lynch. And then jumps back onto Nisani. Given both Nisani is town and Keir probable town, this feels like "as long as a townie gets lynched, I'm cool with it" votes.
Marv deserves a special mention, because he was hard on the Nisani wagon, then starts up a counterwagon on Keirathi and then hops back onto Nisani when Keirathi claims mason. But this deserves more extensive analysis... have to decide whether this was town Marv being indecisive or scum Marv screwing around with the lynch.
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That's quite the frustration there. When I look at the votes I see things that I thought were weird. I point them out. You answer. Why the angst?
Also, I remember your OO case and you explicitly asked me about it. I admit that it was long and I was busy at work, so I didn't give it the attention it deserved at the time. Mainly because my own read on him at the time was null with some town tells. Since then I've been rereading him. Do you still think he's scum?
OO gets an A for effort, but it seems misdirected. He spends a long time analysing trivialities. I'm still falling on the side of misguided townie effort, but I agree with you that some of the words he uses seem weird from a town mindset, so I am not fully convinced in my read. Why do you think he's scum?
As for your question: if scum thinks they can justify switching wagons, and the wagon is gaining speed fast, then sure, why not switch? As for Keirathi not being confirmed: you're right, but I am choosing to believe he's town. If he's scum then this point is clearly moot, but looking over Cora's filter in particular gives me quite a lot of confidence that they're town.
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On March 29 2013 01:01 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 00:55 marvellosity wrote: See my last post.
It's not the fact that he is potentially correct with the analysis, nor is it about whether the analysis in question is good. You're misrepresenting/not getting what people are getting at with this.
Considering the post is about you, you should ask yourself why *you* like it, but so many other players seem to have a problem with it. That's my little thought exercise for you ^_^ Because the only person who has read as much into my posts as InsertSmurfHere is me. I don't care that he was right when no one else was as long as he was right for the right reasons. Would you really have felt better about InsertSmurfHere if he had just jumped on me after Haparathi and Keihauli did? The problem I have is this:
I look at the information I had available to me at the time and my read on you, which was null leaning to scummy. I know that you tend to look scummy to me on D1, so I didn't automatically want to lynch you, but I definitely didn't have a town read on you. Other people seemed to reach similar conclusions, ranging on the scum to null side of the scumometer.
In comes Yamato, champion of the underdefended to give you a town read based on meta. I still don't know whether he is right or wrong, you are soft-claiming town here and that Yamato read you completely accurately. That is great. Lets analyse both cases:
prplhz is town and Yamato is correct. However, is Yamato the kind of player perspicacious enough to correctly read you using meta alone, or is he using the prior knowledge, given by his scum role PM to "guide" his correct meta read and cherry pick the gems out of the rough? Well, on the one hand we have Hapa, Keirathi, myself and probably some other people all having doubts about prplhz. On the other we have Yamato. So is Yamato better at reading you than Hapa, Keir and most everybody else? I don't think I believe that (you can call it hubris if you like, but I call it common sense)
other case: prplhz is scum and Yamato is wrong. In this case, Yamato made a giant error as town and was adamantly defending you based on meta. This is the least likely scenario out of all 4 possible combinations, so lets ignore it. Yamato being scum and cherry picking your meta to give you a town read and you now agreeing with him is plausible.
So regardless of prplhz's actual alginment, the most likely explanation for yamato's behaviour is that he is scum. And him picking the right bits out of your meta is guided by FIRST assigning you to be town and THEN looking at your meta, which makes a case a LOT easier to make.
For the record, I have a slight town read on prplhz based on reading his defense and late D1 activity.
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On March 29 2013 01:05 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 01:04 Hapahauli wrote:On March 29 2013 00:53 prplhz wrote:On March 29 2013 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On March 29 2013 00:45 prplhz wrote:Just wanna bump in and say that I don't really find InsertSmurfHere's defense of me weird. The various arguments against him have been how he was right when nobody else was (I remember that Palmar said that wherebugsgo was scum in some game just for that reason and then wherebugsgo put it in his signature because wherebugsgo was actually town). There's also the argument that he was very adamant in his defense of me at a relatively early point but if you look at this post it looks like he takes a certain pride in being able to discern my alignment (something I don't think anybody other than yamato77 and marvellosity would ever do). Finally I'd like to point out that just about everything he said about me was, at least in my opinion, perfectly true. He wasn't just bullshitting, he was actually interpreting my posts really well and squeezed every little thing out of them that he could while not taking anything too far. Good analysis in my opinion. Would not lynch. Correct/good analysis is super-fucking easy as mafia, sweetie. Correct analysis obviously is, good analysis not so much and no matter what, good analysis should just about never be held against people. The argument myself and others are making is that yamatos defense of you is seemingly correct but not "good" due to how littl you had done at that point in the game. I'm saying that the reason he was so adamant is because: He was right and for the right reasons. He takes a certain pride in being correct about me specifically. That's perfectly alright for me.
Why does yamato have such an accurate read on you specifically? Has he played with you a more than average amount? Was he the first to catch you as scum and defend you as town in previous games?
Note: I don't know the answers, I presume you can help you.
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On March 29 2013 00:11 InsertSmurfHere wrote:Hey Acro, now that you're here, and I'm here, I want to talk to you about some things that I don't like in your "case" on me. Show nested quote +1. On March 26 2013 12:37 InsertSmurfHere wrote: Is he an idiot as town, too?
From your filter, that is what I surmise is your opinion of him already. If that's the case, I guess you're content to let him lurk away the rest of day 1 as he intends?
Or...? If Smurf is Yamato, he has played at least 2 games with a town DI (British 1 and Personality 2) and thus cannot simply claim ignorance of how DI plays as town. Even if he can be forgiven the remarkable oversight of not looking at DI's townplay, his excuse of ignorance here is a lie. This is bullshit, and quite obviously evidence that you're not reading my filter. I specifically mentioned that I have not played with Dandel from the very beginning of the game, and that my experience with town Dandel is not that he's an idiot. If you looked into either of those games, you would realize that he was a replacement in both, and a troll in neither. Given this, how do you think that I'm lying? Show nested quote +2. His scumreads: All 3 of his scumreads throughout the game:Grackaroni, Cora and Nisani. I painted Cora green, because I doubt this is a power play by the scumteam to claim mason. This is bullshit. By this metric, I could easily call Hapa or Palmar mafia, but I don't because it's fucking stupid. You're not this bad. Except that Hapa has played about the towniest game out of anybody in the thread and I can't match the way Palmar is playing with the disinterested trolly Palmar when he's scum. Also, Hapa DIDN'T want to lynch Nisani, so why is he in this list. Rather, Marv should be there, and I have him on my scumdar.
Show nested quote +So... the MOST concerting part of the prplhz case is how easily Nisani jumps on the wagon. So suddenly Nisani has been bombarded to scum, as part of the whole prplhz = town crusade.
From that point onwards he never even questions anything else and just blindly wants to lynch Nisani. Yes, it was concerning. I openly questioned Hapa's motives with the prplhz thing, because I don't see how one who had done his research could see prplhz as mafia. But I give Hapa slack, because he's been wrong before. However, I won't give Nisani slack, even now as confirmed town, for mindlessly sheeping on the wagon without a second thought. That SEEMS to be what you're accusing me of, even though it wasn't, yet you can't seem to understand why I found it scummy from Nisani? Bullshit. But he came out of nowhere. You suddenly bombarded him to your primary scumread. You didn't question him about it, you just instantly bombarded him to scum for ninjavoting. It feels like it was all a ploy to give extra weight to your whole prplhz defense thing, which still makes no sense.
Show nested quote +Irrational defense of prlhz. I would quote posts, but it shat up the thread for about 3 pages. I don't even think this says anything about prplhz's alignment. I can see a scum doing this for a townie (defend the innocent for townie points, when no scumbuddy is in danger of being lynched) or a scumbuddy (given that the alternative at the time was my push on Nisani, which he promptly sheeped he could have been defending his buddy), but the whole thing feels like Smurf had made up his mind before even starting to post on what prplhz's alignment was and was going to defend that stance to the death. And while some of the points he made make sense, when I looked at prplhz's filter at the time, it just read like a scum filter, so it's the complete lack of DOUBT about the alignment that strikes me. That is not the critical mindset of a townie. Total bullshit. "It just read like a scum filter"? What kind of "critical mindset" is that? You don't even bother to address the meta point that you say "make sense", you just blow them off as nothing, when in reality, THAT WAS THE WHOLE ARGUMENT. Yes, it shat up the thread. No, it gave me ZERO town cred, and how would it anyway? Most of town was null or against prplhz at that point, so who is giving me town cred for it besides prplhz, and how much is that town cred even worth? Really, this is pathetic. What's even more pathetic is that these are the arguments that people have against me, and that they're all based upon ridiculous assumptions like the ones you've made here. Addressed in full in my previous post.
But really, I want to talk about you, Acro, because this case is just a little too perfectly timed. What about the Nisani flip makes you any more ready to call me mafia than before? Why didn't you bring this up before the lynch, when it was all still relevant? Or are you just using the pathetically stupid and lazy idea that my being on Nisani's wagon is evidence of me being mafia? Because if that's the case, THERE ARE TWELVE OTHER PEOPLE who voted him with me, you included, and most of them after me.
One such person is Marv, but I'll get to him when I'm done with you.
The timing is quite obvious: my prime scumspect was lynched and flipped town, so I was obviously wrong and had to reread filters. I started with yours, because you had been floating around my scumdar the whole game. I simply had to reread it to realize why you were scum. Also, your vote on Nisani was pretty terrible. I trust that out of the 12 other people, all of your scumbuddies are there too, but not all votes are equal and yours sticks out as particularly scummy. You hadn't mentioned him before, you never pressured him, or pushed him afterwards, you just voted and then continued your prplhz is town diatribe. You question people about Nisani and say you want to "convince" them, but not once do I see anything ever again that convinces anybody about anything. Never once do I get the feeling you even really thought about Nisani, rather than just deciding he was scum at a time it was convenient for you.
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On March 29 2013 02:10 Hapahauli wrote: Can you talk about your town-read on Acro a bit? I'm giving him some activity points no doubt, but I haven't read any of his scumgames. I've played a fair bit of scum. The most recent is probably the most relevant (Personality 2), but LVI is probably also fairly representative, although it was before quite a long streak of town games, in which I think my play generally improved.
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On March 29 2013 02:15 marvellosity wrote: EBWOP *stupid, sustained argument with me Talking about that... what do you think of OO?
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K, been reading OO's filter. I am confused how Hapa has a town read on him. Hapa, can you explain that?
My main problems with OO are:
1. His inconsistent scumhunting. He just sort of mentions people in passing, without following up on anything except really Grack.
I currently have no clue who he thinks is scum. He made quite a big case on me, but I'm not even sure he's calling me scum. They all seem very tenuous. The only person he has taken a conclusive stand on was Grack. Everything else is really really vague as if he's afraid of having an opinion. This insecurity is further evidenced by the number of times that he asks people to tell him what they think about his stuff.
The problem is that I don't know OO at all well. I read his meta and none of the games he played seem at all similar. I don't get the same insecure feeling from his town games at all, but his scum game has a different feel too.
2. Odd phrases that shouldn't be in a townies vocabulary: we've talked about "planting the seed" which makes it seem like OO was more concerned with looking like he was consistent in his reads than actually getting his read out there. However, we can add the whole thing where he talks about "targets of opportunity" + Show Spoiler +On March 28 2013 20:56 ObviousOne wrote:K I have a giant notepad document filled with quotes and I'm not going to paste them here as is so I'll try to distill some information from it. Notable mentions of Nisani (chronologically if I copy/pasted correctly)+ Show Spoiler [Hapa] +On March 26 2013 12:12 Hapahauli wrote:@ NisaniWhere'd ya go? You offered us two pointless comments then dropped out of the thread: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 09:28 Nisani201 wrote: I highly doubt that there are people who haven't read their role PMs. Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 09:31 Nisani201 wrote:On March 26 2013 09:29 sinani206 wrote: What's the point in saying that you haven't read your role though? Because it seems like the standard D1 meta is to fuck around and wait for someone to take it too seriously. What are your thoughts on some of the suspicions in the thread so far? Particularly on Grack and prplhz? + Show Spoiler [Acro familiarity with Nisani's p…] +On March 26 2013 12:20 Acrofales wrote: Nisani is lurking and Dandel is spamming. Amazing. Who woulda thunk that would happen. + Show Spoiler [Acro votes] +On March 26 2013 14:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 13:52 Nisani201 wrote:Acrofales seemed to be making a lot of sense at the beginning of the game and now he's looking really bad. He said this: On March 26 2013 10:54 Acrofales wrote: However, if you BELIEVE OO is lying about not having read his role PM; you should really be in favour of lynching him. The ONLY reason to LIE about this, is because he's scum. There is no townie reason to lie and say you have not read your role PM. The joking stage of the game is over and he's still trying to drag it on into seriousness. And looking back at his filter, he said a lot of things about how people should be interpreting OO's words without putting in his own opinion. And in general there isn't much real content in his filter. I think he's scum. ##vote acrofales You are terrible. I made a lot of sense in the beginning of the game. My VERY FIRST serious post was my opinion on OO's claim. The rest of my filter has my opinion on DI, prplhz and Marv. Off the top of my head. Probably anything else that has been discussed in the thread too. This game gonna be easy. Lynch the liar! ##vote Nisani201 + Show Spoiler [Acro] +On March 27 2013 02:38 Acrofales wrote:Some updates. I like Smurf's more recent participation. Pressure on Cora feels good. Still don't like his stance on DI, and it depends on how good a player Smurf is, whether this is something that can be excused, or is an obvious scumtell. I want to know who he is.
Raynpelikoneet does not look particularly scummy to me. There are some posts I don't like: + Show Spoiler [this one] +On March 26 2013 10:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: S&B: I never said i wasn't serious with my vote. I asked marv why does he assume i am serious. Something he also failed to answer. completely dodges the point. Because of the way he phrased the initial question, he inherently claimed he wasn't actually very serious. A vague answer that feels like it's part of a larger backpedal regarding prplhz. However, having a very serious vote a few hours into D1 is an oxymoron. + Show Spoiler [and this one] +On March 26 2013 10:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 10:34 Keirathi wrote:On March 26 2013 10:29 raynpelikoneet wrote: And given that you don't (at least you should not) know prplhz's alignment how exactly is it not beneficial to see how he reacts to the case first? Because it doesn't matter a single bit how he reacts because the case was built on false information. Hell, if I was scum, I would love nothing more than for someone to make a case on me that I could so easily refute just by posting a few quotes from my previous games that wouldn't even be hard to find. The point of making "cases" isn't to convince the person they are scum. They are to convince everyone else that someone is scum. Plus, S&B was asking for opinions about his case. The problem with meta in this prplhz case is that it's the easiest thing in the world to fake. Even the dumbest idiot could probably fake their "town meta" by posting some general advice as their first post. Other than that part, you are right. misrepresents the argument, which was not that prplhz was playing to his town meta, but that meta was useless in this situation, because prplhz does the same as both alignments. However, neither of these are particularly concerning... and while his case on OO was somewhat OMGUS, I think he picked on some good points and OO's case really was just a bad association case based on unflipped players. Mostly, however, I like that he does not seem concerned to speak his mind or share his reads, and I don't get the feeling that he is just throwing suspicion around to see where it sticks. In closing: he's not a scumspect at the moment.
I'm not really liking what I see in Cora's filter. In particular this post: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 15:17 cDgCorazon wrote: Acro you are blowing OO saying that he hasn't read his role pm way out of proportion. It was annoying at first, but now it's looking scummy. came at a time when I was NOT talking about OO at all (except to answer Oats' stupid question). In fact, I only directly talk about OO in two posts, the rest is all using it as a springboard to analyse OTHER players' reactions to it. At the time, I had specifically singled out two reactions as feeling off: Nisani's and Cora's own. Trying to flip it back just reaks of panicked OMGUS. However, given how Cora was a rather easy mislynch in Personality 2, I am hesitant to just outright call him scum for this behaviour. While I don't agree with his read on Rayn, his posts about it are reasonable and he seems forthcoming with his opinion.
My main scumspect is still Nisani. His case was a pack of lies and he has disappeared from the thread again. Lynch him. Here is his case on me: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 13:52 Nisani201 wrote:Acrofales seemed to be making a lot of sense at the beginning of the game and now he's looking really bad. He said this: On March 26 2013 10:54 Acrofales wrote: However, if you BELIEVE OO is lying about not having read his role PM; you should really be in favour of lynching him. The ONLY reason to LIE about this, is because he's scum. There is
no townie reason to lie and say you have not read your role PM. The joking stage of the game is over and he's still trying to drag it on into seriousness. And looking back at his filter, he said a lot of things about how people should be interpreting OO's words without putting in his own opinion. And in general there isn't much real content in his filter. I think he's scum. ##vote acrofales My first few posts were where I gave my opinion about OO's claim. How can those be my most sensible posts when he has clearly not even read them properly?! It's because he is scum and needed to contribute, so jumped on something without thinking it through, that's why. ##revote Nisani201 for emphasis. + Show Spoiler [Obvious] +On March 27 2013 03:41 ObviousOne wrote: Acro, I think your case on Nisani has some merit, though it may have roots in his relative inactivity up to this point. Do you have a second scum read? We seem to agree on Rayn looking town
for now so I will ask for your opinion on Oatsmaster.
Is Oats town or scum to you? + Show Spoiler [Grackaroni] +On March 27 2013 04:27 Grackaroni wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:24 ObviousOne wrote: Who else is scum besides me, Grack? Am I the only scum in this game?
I'm happy to be wrong about you if you would just do something more useful than tunnel me all day. You're just staying the course though and it bothers me. lol how many people have given multiple scum reads so far. I find it ridiculous that I'm still some major suspect because I made 3 posts without stances at the start of the game. I think Nisani and Sinani are both people to look into and both could be scum as well. Nisani wrote a case about acro and seemed to ignore all of the other things that Acro has done in the thread and just said he's too focused on you not reading your role pm. Once again I don't like Sinani's original contribution and he hasn't added anything since then. + Show Spoiler [Sinani] +On March 27 2013 04:32 sinani206 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:28 Nisani201 wrote: Good morning everyone.
The case on Grack is really weak, and if it were made by someone other than Palmar it probably wouldn't be getting nearly as far as it is now.
Just because Smurf made a bad case doesn't mean he's scum. He looks town now and there shouldn't be any suspicion on him.
Acrofales is making a bit more sense but his case on me is just a bunch of OMGUS. Acro, who is your secondary suspect? How can you say such a huge blanket statement. It's day 1, what evidence do you have that Smurf is for sure town? + Show Spoiler [Hapa again] +On March 27 2013 06:09 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 06:06 Nisani201 wrote: What the hell is wrong with Grack's "attitude" or "intention?" I don't see anything wrong with that.
It's possible that Palmar is scum. I'm more confident on Acrofales scum though. Can you outline the reasons for Acro being scum? All I see is an active townie. He's contributed a ton this game. It seemed like you were backing off Acro last night too... Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:28 Nisani201 wrote: Good morning everyone.
The case on Grack is really weak, and if it were made by someone other than Palmar it probably wouldn't be getting nearly as far as it is now.
Just because Smurf made a bad case doesn't mean he's scum. He looks town now and there shouldn't be any suspicion on him.
Acrofales is making a bit more sense but his case on me is just a bunch of OMGUS. Acro, who is your secondary suspect? ... so I'm not sure how you're so confident in your read. + Show Spoiler [More hapa] +On March 27 2013 06:58 Hapahauli wrote:@ NisaniWhy do you "want to believe" that Palmar is scum? If you think he's scum, then go after him. Furthermore, I don't understand why you think the Grack case is bad. These are your stated reasons: Show nested quote +The case on Grack is really weak, and if it were made by someone other than Palmar it probably wouldn't be getting nearly as far as it is now. Show nested quote +The initial case on Grack was bad, it was based off of his reactions to certain things, which weren't really scummy. He didn't do anything scummy after that. As I said
earlier, the only reason people are voting for him is because of Palmar. ...and they're pretty inadequate. I especially don't understand the bolded segment. The Grack case is primarily based on precisely that - that his reactions are completely objective, ungenuine, and purposeless in the context of the thread. How are his reactions not scummy? Furthermore, what in his filter to you suggests that he's town? + Show Spoiler [Acro] +On March 27 2013 07:10 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 05:58 ObviousOne wrote:In the interests of having meaningful discussion about today's candidates, I would like to see everyone take a stand on who they think should be up for lynch today so we can talk about
the candidates and not miss out on the opportunity to hear from people who are in opposite time zones or not able to be in the thread at various points during the day. We're coming up on
the halfway point of the day portion and this is the optimal time to switch gears and makes for a good opportunity for any lingering cases yet to be made to get posted in the thread before
votes are stuck in useless places due to not being around.
Original post regarding Grack: + Show Spoiler +On March 26 2013 15:39 ObviousOne wrote:Grack reads like he's ready to become an echo of thread sentiment. By admission this is a return to the game and he may be a bit rusty for that. I liked: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 11:17 Grackaroni wrote: For the record Hapa: When I say that I don't like Sinani using the fact that OO didn't read his role PM to say that he is scum. I mean that Sinani is using scummy logic. (he is misconstruing something that should not be alignment indicative and using it against OO to say that he is scum.)
This is my first game in a long time and I am having some trouble finding where I need to focus. But I am giving reads and I will continue to do so.
Lack of forthcoming reads about people he's asking questions about is kind of weird, him espousing as much is highlighted here: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 12:56 Grackaroni wrote:On March 26 2013 12:49 strongandbig wrote:On March 26 2013 12:45 Grackaroni wrote: I don't like the case on Dandel Ion. He seems to troll regardless of alignment so there's nothing in there that points to him being scum this game as opposed to just anti-town.
@ISH Why didn't you bother to look up a town game of Dandel Ion? u scum bro? No..... I know what you dislike. I didn't say anything about what I think of Dandel Ion or ISH in that post. But I wasn't intending to because I haven't drawn any conclusions on them from it. All i am saying is that I dislike the case and for good reason. Calling out sinani for tunneling on my meaningless hello post: null
We can find out a lot more about him when there are some concrete bits mid-day besides his interactions with sinani. Looking at it again, there's a kind of nugget in the middle there with the interaction between him and Palmar. (BTW I've never played with a D1-talkative Palmar before, this is kind of surreal.) He flat out gave Palmar a town read instead of proposing a better lynch target. Okay, that's weird. Scum points and town points, I want to see more. More red than green. Are you picking up what I'm putting down? Dot points outlining why I think Grack is scum: + Show Spoiler +On March 27 2013 03:13 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On March 27 2013 02:53 marvellosity wrote: Grackeroni is an infinitely better lynch than either rayn or Obvious. Obvious isn't playing scared at all which was the overarching theme of his play in Hydra Mafia (even with VE for
support).
Acro, I'll check what you said about Nisani when I'm home and have some time later. What makes you say OO is not timid? He has not really done anything that stands out except to not read his role PM, when he had, probably, not read his role pm, which makes that completely non-indicative of alignment. Since then he has shared 2 rather vague and meaningless association cases... and a meandering post about Grack that left me with the feeling that he didn't actually have an opinion either way. Where are the reads? Where is the scumhunting? Where is the townie activity? You just don't have a handle on how I play. Marv understands me better. This is how I do. When I talk about something, it's typically because it's either worth replying to or the person I'm talking about is a scum-read of mine or someone I'm interested in getting a better read on myself. There's no reason to talk about townies except in passing and/or when referring to cases. I thought Kei was scummy yesterday but he's looking better today and I have dropped it. I'm hedging my bets on Grack being scum - responded to Palmar's pressure by giving Palmar a town read instead of an alternate lynch proposition - no substantial positions taken outside of calling Nisani's train of thought scummy - a lot of posts but little of any intent - seems to have known better than discuss my meaningless intro post but continues to talk about it for several posts instead of simply shutting down the conversation as pointless My vote is currently on Grackaroni. Fine. I nominate Nisani to be shot, hanged, drawn and quartered. After that we can burn him and end it all with a good old-fashioned drowning. I suggest sensibe people get their vote on him stat. Currently looking back into Smurf given the new insights into who he is and whether he could actually do all that crap as town, and then will look into Grackaroni. I was not convinced by the cases and didn't see anything particularly scummy about him, but his continued absense isn't doing him any favours. Deadline is still like 20 hours away, right? So plenty of time. + Show Spoiler [Sinani] +On March 27 2013 15:54 sinani206 wrote:OK, Nisani is scum. He's been using soft reads all game to make it look like he's contributing, saying people "look" or "feel" some way or another. He uses words like "possible" and "likely", phrases like "not really." Asking others useless questions to fill up his posts. Nisani is not acting as a townie should ask. He is hesitant and incomplete in his "analysis" and has been trying to deter discussion ( here and here). Not to mention voting prplhz with no reasoning and only 2 sentences mentioning him, asking for a vote count before voting. Nisani's play is not townlike. There are no third parties. Therefore he is scum. So just looking at the list of names there, a few of them come up several times. Let's look at their reasons for mentioning Nisani. Hapa filter- Unsatisfied with Nisani's contributions in the early game - Did not like Nisani's lack of confidence his scum read on Acro - More about contribution / Nisani's wanting to believe that Palmar is scum Hapa's interactions with Nisani look town motivated to me. He looks like the first to bring up anything negative towards Nisani. Acro filter- Mentions Nisani is lurking (and doesn't mention if it's suspicious) - Rather blatant OMGUS vote on Nisani - Accusation that Nisani is feigning contribution, emphasizes vote - Brings up Nisani again after my call to start the consolidation process Acro's intentions are rather clear. They also seem to match Sinani's below. Why Nisani in particular? Was it because Nisani was talking about him being scummy? That's what it looks like to me but I might be wrong, I'm getting tired trying to finish this before I sleep. Sinani filter- Attacks Nisani for Nisani's defense of ISH - Claims Nisani has given nothing but soft-reads and feigned contribution More attacks for feigning contribution, lines up with Acro's read.
Okay, so Nisani in retrospect was clearly making himself an easy target, and was not quite up to the task of providing us with multiple reads. He was under attack directly or indirectly by several people from nearly the beginning of the game based on his comments regarding the conversation about my Role PM post. I didn't see any point at which anyone was like "well, he looks like a tilted town" or anything like that in my re-read but I may have missed it. One of the possible reasons I can see this being the case is that he seems to have been brought to attention by Hapa. For the most part I've had a town read on Hapa the whole game and I'm sure I'm not the only one so I can see how it would lend itself to becoming part of "thread sentiment." The further tunneling by Acro kept Nisani on the back foot. Even I had a few words in regarding the situation (agreeing with Acro's case). Overall, the lynch happened rather easily, but I think everyone shares the blame on that. Nisani's play did not look like strong town play. We didn't question whether or not he seemed capable of coming up with something new under pressure. The most questionable candidate of the three people who addressed Nisani is Acro because it essentially boils down to OMGUS. Acro insisted multiple times that Nisani was scum. But that could just be Acro being Acro, I don't know him. I'm just looking at thread action here.
Follow up questions that I really hope someone else will take a look at: - Were these tunnels / solitary reads / the only prudent cases made the the above players or were they actively seeking out more than one target for Day 1? - What other "targets of opportunity" did these players pass up in favor of Nisani? Was there any motivation to NOT vote for certain players who were exhibiting similar characteristics? (i.e. prplhz) - Feel free to add your own thoughts... The focus just seems really strange in his questions. Why is he worried about "other targets of opportunity"? What possible town motivation is there for asking this question in the first place? It is a guaranteed WIFOM generator and utterly pointless, but moreover, this whole post shows that OO has spent a fair bit of time thinking about what juicy lynchbait targets could have been lynched instead of Nisani (or more malevolently: can be lynched now that Nisani is dead). This is not scumhunting, in fact it is the direct opposite of actual scumhunting, and not a townie mindset at all.
3. Remarkable lack of Marv in the list of "remarkable events surrounding Nisani". For some reason he includes Hapa's posts about Nisani, but skips Marv, who definitely was on the Nisani wagon early, until he derailed it himself. Only I pushed it harder (and at the end Sinani) and Hapa never pushed it at all. It seems like a rather bad summary of the thread events. But this is a pretty minor point, because I don't really see a scum motivation for doing this except through rather painful association cases.
Nevertheless, I don't see only bad things in OO's filter:
1. Sheer activity. In Hydra, he and VE combined managed to post 3 pages between the two of them before they were killed. Here OO has 5 pages of filter all by himself.
2. Effort. Some of the posts, including the one I quoted with the "targets of opportunity" indicate a real effort, even if it is misguided. The points against me were coherent, albeit wrong, and I can see a townie going through the thread and picking up on these things.
I don't think OO is a very good lynch for tomorrow, because Smurf is surer scum, but I am far from convinced that OO ISN'T scum.
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On March 29 2013 04:00 Hapahauli wrote: And if you have a role, I suggest you claim it. Why the hell are you telling someone to claim AT NIGHT?
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On March 29 2013 04:18 cDgCorazon wrote: Yamato you are digging such a hole for yourself here.
Basically you are tunneling me and Kei is scum "by proxy". It's not hard to see what you're doing here.
You still haven't given any reason that Kei is scum. I'd love to hear an actual one. If he was in fact doing this, I would be pretty surprised if he was scum. Scum is generally not dumb enough to tunnel what are generally accepted as confirmed townies.
However, he's not doing that, so this point is moot.
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On March 29 2013 04:26 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:26 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2013 04:00 Hapahauli wrote: And if you have a role, I suggest you claim it. Why the hell are you telling someone to claim AT NIGHT? It's not like he's going to get shot by mafia. Lets play this game: we're wrong and you got him to claim DT or medic. Mafia knows he's not scum, so even if he doesn't get killed (which I agree seems unlikely even if he's town), he probably gets roleblocked.
And what did you gain? Fuck all. Claiming at night is retarded.
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On March 29 2013 05:14 strongandbig wrote: I took a look at acro's filter, I don't have too strong of a read on him but I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum. (1) he threw his vote around at the start of the game but most of his filter just feels more "focused" than I would expect. One guy at a time, really pushing. This is what I would expect out of either a town-organizer type or a bad-townie who thought he caught a scum slip, but acro doesn't fit either of these models. This is also what I would expect out of a decent scummer. (2) the reasoning for voting nisani was scummy as fuck - "ignore your terrible meta arguments, he's being anti town!" There's nothing actual scum love more than Ace's patented "you're hurting town" lynch. (3) he keeps using the word "Scumspect", I want to cut a hole in that word's flesh and dildo it. (4) one of his three big bullet points on why ish is scum is that his reads have been wrong. again, super scummy logic.
On the other hand, there is some stuff I like in his filter too. Specifically, i feel like his suspicions on marv made sense, as did the fact that he backed off them a little bit when marv got more involved, and the fact that he still hasn't backed all the way off, as he well shouldn't. I'm used to you being biased against me, but I'm not used to you being this bad at it.
1) Nonsense. 2) The meta was rubbish. You should know, you've played with Nisani. He has a very similar style as both scum and as town, so trying to give him townie points for style is rubbish. That Hapa was right in hindsight doesn't change the fact that the meta was rubbish. So that leaves "what have you done and why have you done it this game?" which I thought was scum motivated. 3) My scumspects are scumspicious. 4) /facepalm. You didn't even read that bit did you? The main point of that bullet was his dodgy reasoning for voting for Nisani.
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On March 29 2013 06:05 Hapahauli wrote: Also, why do you think SnB is town? This feels a lot like his mafia-game in Chrono Trigger, where he couldn't sustain his activity past early D1. My problem with calling SnB scum outright is that I don't see that much difference between here and Personality. He was slightly more confident in his reads, but SnB is never particularly active on D1. If he starts giving good insights from now onwards, then he's probably town. If he keeps doing nothing except calling Drazerk and me scum, then he's scum. When he's scum he is eternally butthurt over HRM. When he's town he eventually gets over it.
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On March 29 2013 06:19 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 06:15 Hapahauli wrote:On March 29 2013 06:07 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 06:06 strongandbig wrote: as for who I want to lynch tomorrow, I'm thinking obviousone. Forget the retarded backandforth about his meta, here's why: (1) the case on ryan was super scummy, both the tone and the reasoning. (2) he's been grubbing for towncred, going back in his own filter and pointing out where he's been right to make sure we all know it, and doing things that are typically "townie looking things that don't help town." example: he posted that big block of bold text about consolidation, then completely dropped it when no one but me responded, then when we were looking at the last minute for someone to lynch, he quoted his own big block of text and was all like "this town sucks right now" (3) most suspiciously - just look at the amount of effort versus content. He's putting a lot of text in the thread about how he's filtering this guy and that guy, how he's doing so much analysis, etctera. He's written all that text, and what cases or arguments has he actually made? A couple bullet points on Grack, and that terrible scummy case on Ryan. That's it. So yeah that's who I want to lynch tomorrow. This one wanted to literally last-minute vote switch to me 10 min to night post. Just a reminder. Is that what he always or just for the players he is incapable of discerning awful play from versus scum play from? Why are you insinuating that your play was bad? What are you referring to? It's objectively bad in hindsight. I wanted to lynch Grack. He was town. I wanted to lynch Rayn. I've since changed my mind. I wanted to lynch Kei. Mason claim lends itself to being town. I've tunneled poor targets for poor reasons all of D1. I call it bad because it was wrong and especially when I disregarded Kei's request to talk it out. So who do you want to lynch now? As I said earlier. I have no clue who you think is scum... and I don't like that at all.
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