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On March 29 2013 07:12 cDgCorazon wrote:
Well there is explanation for Palmar kill:
Scum afraid of him being good analyzer, kills his scumread to try and discredit him. It doesn't lead to him getting lynched, so they take him out.
Unless there is a town vig that didn't call their shot, can we assume it was a scum vig?
Alright Yamato, the clock is ticking.
##Vote: Yamato/Smurf
I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that it was definitely a scum vig if there is the possibility it was a town JOAT.
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Jack of all trades - a group of one-shot powers like Vig, Mason, DT, whatever Kurmui decided, if one in fact exists. That's the only reason I can think for a town Vig D1 to not claim.
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On March 28 2013 06:18 sinani206 wrote:
OO ninja vote with 40 minutes left in the day ok.
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On March 29 2013 07:17 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 07:11 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:10 strongandbig wrote:
I would like some people to read OO's filter and tell me if they agree with me re: his effort to content ratio. What's your read on Marv? well the fact that scum shot hapa and palmar obviously makes me wonder if marv is scum but other than that I always have a hard time reading him, and it's especially hard to tell whether or not he's town now because if he is town he would be behaving differently from normal anyway because of the personality stuff. so basically, null but def on my list of people to look more closely at.
Okay, I was mostly asking because he pretty much hard defended me as town D1 and he has had absolutely zero reason to do that in this game when I was clearly a person of interest. Do you think a scum Marv would do that, and why?
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On March 29 2013 07:26 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 07:18 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:17 strongandbig wrote:On March 29 2013 07:11 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:10 strongandbig wrote:
I would like some people to read OO's filter and tell me if they agree with me re: his effort to content ratio. What's your read on Marv? well the fact that scum shot hapa and palmar obviously makes me wonder if marv is scum but other than that I always have a hard time reading him, and it's especially hard to tell whether or not he's town now because if he is town he would be behaving differently from normal anyway because of the personality stuff. so basically, null but def on my list of people to look more closely at. Okay, I was mostly asking because he pretty much hard defended me as town D1 and he has had absolutely zero reason to do that in this game when I was clearly a person of interest. Do you think a scum Marv would do that, and why? Scum marv would definitely do that. Go read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16497364Scum marv hard defended town kush, then VE came in with a red check on kush. I explained why I thought that kush was still probably town and just framed. Marv commented to me in irc that that analysis was one of the few ever on TL that actually made him think about how he plays scum.
That's pretty clever.
Actually thinking about how that situation applies to me, it's a good bet to hedge that I'll survive to end-game if I don't get lynched D1. Look at my town record:
1st newbie game: lynched d1 as town
2nd newbie game: NK night 4
3rd newbie game: win at endgame
4th normal game: lynched d1 as town (marv was in on that one and later admitted he did it for the lulz)
6th normal game: win at endgame (d2 in this case)
7th normal game: died by 3p N4
A scum Marv would know if I'm town. It's a crazy and unpredictable move unless someone was aware of it and brought it up in the thread. Do you think he's using the same trick twice?
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On March 29 2013 07:32 Palmar wrote:
looks like I got shot. GG!
GG Palmar <3
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On March 29 2013 07:39 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 07:34 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:26 Keirathi wrote:On March 29 2013 07:18 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:17 strongandbig wrote:On March 29 2013 07:11 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:10 strongandbig wrote:
I would like some people to read OO's filter and tell me if they agree with me re: his effort to content ratio. What's your read on Marv? well the fact that scum shot hapa and palmar obviously makes me wonder if marv is scum but other than that I always have a hard time reading him, and it's especially hard to tell whether or not he's town now because if he is town he would be behaving differently from normal anyway because of the personality stuff. so basically, null but def on my list of people to look more closely at. Okay, I was mostly asking because he pretty much hard defended me as town D1 and he has had absolutely zero reason to do that in this game when I was clearly a person of interest. Do you think a scum Marv would do that, and why? Scum marv would definitely do that. Go read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16497364Scum marv hard defended town kush, then VE came in with a red check on kush. I explained why I thought that kush was still probably town and just framed. Marv commented to me in irc that that analysis was one of the few ever on TL that actually made him think about how he plays scum. That's pretty clever. Actually thinking about how that situation applies to me, it's a good bet to hedge that I'll survive to end-game if I don't get lynched D1. Look at my town record: 1st newbie game: lynched d1 as town 2nd newbie game: NK night 4 3rd newbie game: win at endgame 4th normal game: lynched d1 as town (marv was in on that one and later admitted he did it for the lulz) 6th normal game: win at endgame (d2 in this case) 7th normal game: died by 3p N4 A scum Marv would know if I'm town. It's a crazy and unpredictable move unless someone was aware of it and brought it up in the thread. Do you think he's using the same trick twice? It's irrelevant because I don't know if you are town or not.
That's fair.
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On March 29 2013 07:49 strongandbig wrote:
Nah we should be lunching obviousone
I am delicious
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On March 29 2013 07:45 Keirathi wrote:
Anyways, someone walk me through why Sinani is so scummy that he should bet he lynch today. I'm just not seeing it. Like I said in my post, I have him pretty firmly in the null category. Biggest thing to me is that he seems extra concerned about his survival, but I don't think that is strictly 100% a mafia trait, it's just more likely to be mafia than town.
I don't see what makes him the best second target for the day at all.
iPod posting so I'm not quoting my reads from a little while ago but we can talk about the points regarding Sinani if you wish.
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On March 29 2013 07:59 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 07:53 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:45 Keirathi wrote:
Anyways, someone walk me through why Sinani is so scummy that he should bet he lynch today. I'm just not seeing it. Like I said in my post, I have him pretty firmly in the null category. Biggest thing to me is that he seems extra concerned about his survival, but I don't think that is strictly 100% a mafia trait, it's just more likely to be mafia than town.
I don't see what makes him the best second target for the day at all. iPod posting so I'm not quoting my reads from a little while ago but we can talk about the points regarding Sinani if you wish. I read your reasons but....I dunno, they don't really feel like such black-and-white-SLAMDUNK-we-got-scum reasons. Why him over Smurf/marv/s&b?
I'm voting for SNB as well with the double lynch
Marv has today to get his groove back, definitely Sinani over him.
As for smurf, he does deserve a second look because his D1 was mostly spend arguing with people about his town read on prp and retaliating against Cora.
By elimination I came up with the 6 players I felt were on the probably-not-town end of the spectrum. Palmar has since flipped town so I'm down to 5. Marv can go on that list if he isn't going to push harder today. ISH is spending a lot of time on the defensive but he seems to also find Acro suspicious and I agree with that notion.
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On March 29 2013 09:02 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 08:11 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:59 Keirathi wrote:On March 29 2013 07:53 ObviousOne wrote:On March 29 2013 07:45 Keirathi wrote:
Anyways, someone walk me through why Sinani is so scummy that he should bet he lynch today. I'm just not seeing it. Like I said in my post, I have him pretty firmly in the null category. Biggest thing to me is that he seems extra concerned about his survival, but I don't think that is strictly 100% a mafia trait, it's just more likely to be mafia than town.
I don't see what makes him the best second target for the day at all. iPod posting so I'm not quoting my reads from a little while ago but we can talk about the points regarding Sinani if you wish. I read your reasons but....I dunno, they don't really feel like such black-and-white-SLAMDUNK-we-got-scum reasons. Why him over Smurf/marv/s&b? I'm voting for SNB as well with the double lynch Marv has today to get his groove back, definitely Sinani over him. As for smurf, he does deserve a second look because his D1 was mostly spend arguing with people about his town read on prp and retaliating against Cora. By elimination I came up with the 6 players I felt were on the probably-not-town end of the spectrum. Palmar has since flipped town so I'm down to 5. Marv can go on that list if he isn't going to push harder today. ISH is spending a lot of time on the defensive but he seems to also find Acro suspicious and I agree with that notion. So those 5 are SnB, Smurf, Sinani, Marv and me? How about you give some reasons for these... or if it's elimination, explain your town reads.
Marv is not in there. Oats is. Why do you want town read?. I gave scum reads. We can discuss my read on you if you want. Let's hash out why we each suspect the other. Was my assessment that your read of me boils down to disliking my tone and word choice for the most part accurate? That's how I read your representation of me so lets see if we're on he same page with this.
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On March 29 2013 09:30 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 06:50 ObviousOne wrote:
scummy
1 sinani206
- Outside of Acro, was the second champion to the Nisani lynch.
- Ostensibly should have had a better handle on Nisani's alignment, was completely wrong, so either a poor use of meta or intentionally using Nisani's lurky habits to push the agenda.
- Sinani's voting reason claims that Nisani was pushing soft reads all game. This is hilarious because Nisani is his own first push. The rest of his filter before that is questions and looks like pretending to be involved.
2 Acrofales
- I'm seeing dislike for my word choice and tone and how those cannot be linked to a town mentality. He admits he doesn't know me so how can this even be a thing if he's not comparing it to anything I've done before?
- My activity within the time before the deadline is already explained within my filter during my conversation with Kei, somehow it's still an issue
- Conversely gives me some credit for effort, but calls it null - that's fine and all but you could say that about anyone. Is time expenditure a town or scum tell for certain?
- Strange reaction to my points about how the lynch came about. What's wrong with pointing out how the bandwagon got started?
3 strongandbig
- Dislikes my "tone" ? Okay
- Last minute vote-switch attempt (half-hearted at that)
- Felt like mostly a non-entity D1
maybe not town, not sure yet
Oatsmaster
Palmar
InsertSmurfHere Ah, I completely missed this post. That explains why I was confused. I don't see where you say why I'm scum. You say why you disagree with my points for calling you scum. But why does that make ME scum? Or, in fact, a similar thing for SnB. These reads seem to be pretty much pure "you made a case on me, so I think you're scum". The only case that actually contains a reason for someone being scum is Sinani. As for the points: 1) I don't "dislike" your word choice. I explain it pretty well. Why are you bothered with when your read started ("planting the seed") or what target a scum might have lynched if they didn't lynch Nisani ("target of opportunity")? These are things that should not be occupying a townie. I don't have to know you to know that townies should not be worried about that. 2) So what? I still think it's scummy. 3) No. Time expenditure is not a real tell, although scum tends to have a harder time being active. 4) Nothing. You just didn't do it properly. The utter lack of Marv in that list was remarkable. The inclusion of Hapa, one of the greatest opponents of the Nisani lynch was also strange. And your analysis of it was focused on all the wrong things.
The purpose of the gigantic post was to discern how the Nisani bandwagon began, not to call everyone who was on it scummy. I spent about 4 hours in the thread talking to myself anyway so it was something to do in the down-time. And now we're all on the same page when it comes to how the bandwagon was formed and we can make conclusions from it. Mine was that the town all share blame for how it went down, but that Nisani's play wasn't doing him any favors either.
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On March 29 2013 09:30 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 06:50 ObviousOne wrote:
scummy
1 sinani206
- Outside of Acro, was the second champion to the Nisani lynch.
- Ostensibly should have had a better handle on Nisani's alignment, was completely wrong, so either a poor use of meta or intentionally using Nisani's lurky habits to push the agenda.
- Sinani's voting reason claims that Nisani was pushing soft reads all game. This is hilarious because Nisani is his own first push. The rest of his filter before that is questions and looks like pretending to be involved.
2 Acrofales
- I'm seeing dislike for my word choice and tone and how those cannot be linked to a town mentality. He admits he doesn't know me so how can this even be a thing if he's not comparing it to anything I've done before?
- My activity within the time before the deadline is already explained within my filter during my conversation with Kei, somehow it's still an issue
- Conversely gives me some credit for effort, but calls it null - that's fine and all but you could say that about anyone. Is time expenditure a town or scum tell for certain?
- Strange reaction to my points about how the lynch came about. What's wrong with pointing out how the bandwagon got started?
3 strongandbig
- Dislikes my "tone" ? Okay
- Last minute vote-switch attempt (half-hearted at that)
- Felt like mostly a non-entity D1
maybe not town, not sure yet
Oatsmaster
Palmar
InsertSmurfHere Ah, I completely missed this post. That explains why I was confused. I don't see where you say why I'm scum. You say why you disagree with my points for calling you scum. But why does that make ME scum? Or, in fact, a similar thing for SnB. These reads seem to be pretty much pure "you made a case on me, so I think you're scum". The only case that actually contains a reason for someone being scum is Sinani. As for the points: 1) I don't "dislike" your word choice. I explain it pretty well. Why are you bothered with when your read started ("planting the seed") or what target a scum might have lynched if they didn't lynch Nisani ("target of opportunity")? These are things that should not be occupying a townie. I don't have to know you to know that townies should not be worried about that. 2) So what? I still think it's scummy. 3) No. Time expenditure is not a real tell, although scum tends to have a harder time being active. 4) Nothing. You just didn't do it properly. The utter lack of Marv in that list was remarkable. The inclusion of Hapa, one of the greatest opponents of the Nisani lynch was also strange. And your analysis of it was focused on all the wrong things.
Furthermore, looking for people who resisted joining the Nisani bandwagon - i.e. scum would know he would flip town and thus might not be willing to pile on it willingly - and their reasoning for doing so can help us analyze the votes. For instance, how Marv brought up Keirathi close to the end of day. Let's check where his vote was parked before that:
Rayn
Me
Nisani
Kei
Nisani
If you have a scum read on Marv then this concept makes sense, Marv distancing himself from a Nisani lynch by bringing up Kei towards the end of the day. This is, by itself not enough information to call Marv scummy, but also reflect on how he's been mostly withholding his reads while still engaging in the thread. It speaks to a certain amount of calculation that I don't think anyone would put past the skill of Marv. Then again it could be coincidental and that's why I'm waiting to see what he's going to push today and how.
As far as "planting the seed", I spoke colloquially and in reference to how it seeded the concept of Rayn being mafia in my mind based on a possible slip during a tired moment. It was a reflection on myself, and not on how I perceived the thread's reaction to it. Instead of storing the idea away, I posted it in the thread.
or what target a scum might have lynched if they didn't lynch Nisani ("target of opportunity")? These are things that should not be occupying a townie. I don't have to know you to know that townies should not be worried about that.
Because it's information that can be gleaned and analyzed and I see nothing wrong with considering it?
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If I take the SNB claim at face value and corroborate it with his stuff after day post he is town.
Rayn why did you have a TOWN read on SNB during day 1? You said "leaning town" so now I want to hear why you did not find him scummy yesterday. Full disclosure, go.
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Okay I will see if it satisfies me while I have my coffee. Thanks.
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On March 30 2013 09:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 09:04 ObviousOne wrote:
If I take the SNB claim at face value and corroborate it with his stuff after day post he is town.
Rayn why did you have a TOWN read on SNB during day 1? You said "leaning town" so now I want to hear why you did not find him scummy yesterday. Full disclosure, go. I just posted two posts directed to marv where i explain it. :D
I only saw one and it was a question of why a mafia SNB would do something. Before when I asked this question about Marv, Kei corroborated a scenario in which a scum Marv would, as mafia, defend townies. He even just admitted as much.
Scum SNB would do that if scum SNB knew I was town. It's an easy as balls case to make and ultimately hinges on my word choice to describe what he perceives to be my "mental state". I'm going to just he blunt here and say that this method is fallible agains me because I do not have my "writing voice" set in stone. If it was judging who I said it against and if those claims we're valid it would be a better post. ( for example, was the concept that I pointed out a possible major scum slip a viable option ). That didn't seem to be discussed.
Mafia can use anything they find to get town lynched. The difference is understanding why and sometimes that doesn't become clear until a flip.
I'm inclined to believe SNB is town for the original claim that he medic protected Hapa.
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When I shadoweded VE in Nomination, oats and Mocsta went head to head for 17 pages. They both ende up looking very very town. Mafia would want to head that kind of thing off sometimes. Chaos is not the only kind of misdirection.
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On March 30 2013 09:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
EBWOP: I think at that stage of the game chaos is the best kind of distraction. Not the only one though.
If anything you were doing what you claim to be a mafia tell - trying to start a big fight in the thread with me to create that large disruption. You corroborate that this is a tactic you feel is viable for scum and you may have attempted to draw me into a large argument over it.
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@rayn Seriously though I think we're two townies arguing with each other. Your early game struck me as incredibly townie during my re-read. Palmar gave you the green light for it as well (though he later changed his mind) and you are actively discussing things in the thread including accusations against you. I want to talk about new things with you and not re-hash old. Need to get off this couch / iPod but I really don't feel like moving at this moment.
Where are you on Acro right now? He was my third scum read N1 and you can find the reasons in my filter. Later when we started talking about it he disappeared and I felt that I remained on the right track with him.
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EPT
