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On March 28 2013 06:45 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 06:43 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:42 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:40 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:39 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:37 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:32 Nisani201 wrote:
I don't really know who else is mafia. I was thinking Cora was suspicious but he's probably not scum.
I'll have to look things over. Guys Guys Lol this is the right person to lynch. Since when the hell are you suspicious of Nisani? Does this not read to you as he's still suspicious of Cora There's no reason, NONE, right now, if you've read the thread, to worry about Cora. Zero. I don't know what you're reading at all. He says he was suspicious of Cora. So he literally brought NOTHING new to the table. And you are okay with this? So you're all over him now and convinced he's scum (despite supporting Sinani/Kei earlier) because all of a sudden he makes one post that brings nothing new to the table? uhhhhh.
Not sure what your beef is. It's the right lynch for D1 based on what is possible right now. If you're unhappy about the candidates maybe you should have brought it up, oh, I donno, anytime before the final hours before the lynch. Nisani is the better choice between Sinani and Nisani right now, especially with Keirathi now definitely not getting lynched. That's my updated opinion. They are calling each other scum and any insight we might gain from one on the other is bunk.
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On March 28 2013 06:49 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 06:48 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:45 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:43 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:42 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:40 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:39 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:37 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:32 Nisani201 wrote:
I don't really know who else is mafia. I was thinking Cora was suspicious but he's probably not scum.
I'll have to look things over. Guys Guys Lol this is the right person to lynch. Since when the hell are you suspicious of Nisani? Does this not read to you as he's still suspicious of Cora There's no reason, NONE, right now, if you've read the thread, to worry about Cora. Zero. I don't know what you're reading at all. He says he was suspicious of Cora. So he literally brought NOTHING new to the table. And you are okay with this? So you're all over him now and convinced he's scum (despite supporting Sinani/Kei earlier) because all of a sudden he makes one post that brings nothing new to the table? uhhhhh. Not sure what your beef is. It's the right lynch for D1 based on what is possible right now. If you're unhappy about the candidates maybe you should have brought it up, oh, I donno, anytime before the final hours before the lynch. Nisani is the better choice between Sinani and Nisani right now, especially with Keirathi now definitely not getting lynched. That's my updated opinion. They are calling each other scum and any insight we might gain from one on the other is bunk. Bolded implies that you still want to lynch me. Discuss?
No, I'm trying to type fast and that's not the implication, sorry if it came off that way.
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On March 28 2013 06:49 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 06:48 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:45 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:43 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:42 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:40 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:39 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:37 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 06:32 Nisani201 wrote:
I don't really know who else is mafia. I was thinking Cora was suspicious but he's probably not scum.
I'll have to look things over. Guys Guys Lol this is the right person to lynch. Since when the hell are you suspicious of Nisani? Does this not read to you as he's still suspicious of Cora There's no reason, NONE, right now, if you've read the thread, to worry about Cora. Zero. I don't know what you're reading at all. He says he was suspicious of Cora. So he literally brought NOTHING new to the table. And you are okay with this? So you're all over him now and convinced he's scum (despite supporting Sinani/Kei earlier) because all of a sudden he makes one post that brings nothing new to the table? uhhhhh. Not sure what your beef is. It's the right lynch for D1 based on what is possible right now. If you're unhappy about the candidates maybe you should have brought it up, oh, I donno, anytime before the final hours before the lynch. Nisani is the better choice between Sinani and Nisani right now, especially with Keirathi now definitely not getting lynched. That's my updated opinion. They are calling each other scum and any insight we might gain from one on the other is bunk. My beef is how you magically pulled this Nisani lynch out of your ass because one of his posts "brought nothing new to the table." That's my beef. And it's a big beef.
Then you can have your beef and eat it, too.
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On March 28 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 06:58 Hapahauli wrote:On March 28 2013 06:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Huh, so even without knowing what Nisani will flip you are discussing tomorrow's lynch targets? What's your point? Based on what he will flip we find a lot of new information. Like about OO who does a weird sinani -> nisani thing with no apparent reason.
Nisani is dying
It was almost guaranteed
However
Instead of like
Giving some reads
He just does nothing
Nothing
Zero
Nada
Zilch
That's not town.
That's scum.
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K let's review what reads/views Nisani DID present during the course of D1 and why. Need to step away for a few min to come down from the fervor and I'll be working on that when I come back.
The Nisani <---> Sinani thing should probably be given less weight if it was pure OMGUS / survival. More thoughts in a bit.
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Nisani re-read notes
Comments about people taking OO role PM business seriously
Calls out Acro for it
+ Show Spoiler [calling out acro] +On March 26 2013 13:52 Nisani201 wrote:Acrofales seemed to be making a lot of sense at the beginning of the game and now he's looking really bad. He said this: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 10:54 Acrofales wrote:
However, if you BELIEVE OO is lying about not having read his role PM; you should really be in favour of lynching him. The ONLY reason to LIE about this, is because he's scum. There is no townie reason to lie and say you have not read your role PM. The joking stage of the game is over and he's still trying to drag it on into seriousness. And looking back at his filter, he said a lot of things about how people should be interpreting OO's words without putting in his own opinion. And in general there isn't much real content in his filter. I think he's scum. ##vote acrofales
Acro OMGUS votes
+ Show Spoiler [omgus from acro] +On March 26 2013 14:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 13:52 Nisani201 wrote:Acrofales seemed to be making a lot of sense at the beginning of the game and now he's looking really bad. He said this: On March 26 2013 10:54 Acrofales wrote:
However, if you BELIEVE OO is lying about not having read his role PM; you should really be in favour of lynching him. The ONLY reason to LIE about this, is because he's scum. There is no townie reason to lie and say you have not read your role PM. The joking stage of the game is over and he's still trying to drag it on into seriousness. And looking back at his filter, he said a lot of things about how people should be interpreting OO's words without putting in his own opinion. And in general there isn't much real content in his filter. I think he's scum. ##vote acrofales You are terrible. I made a lot of sense in the beginning of the game. My VERY FIRST serious post was my opinion on OO's claim. The rest of my filter has my opinion on DI, prplhz and Marv. Off the top of my head. Probably anything else that has been discussed in the thread too. This game gonna be easy. Lynch the liar! ##vote Nisani201
Calls out Acro for the OMGUS
+ Show Spoiler [calls out acro] +On March 27 2013 04:28 Nisani201 wrote:
Good morning everyone.
The case on Grack is really weak, and if it were made by someone other than Palmar it probably wouldn't be getting nearly as far as it is now.
Just because Smurf made a bad case doesn't mean he's scum. He looks town now and there shouldn't be any suspicion on him.
Acrofales is making a bit more sense but his case on me is just a bunch of OMGUS. Acro, who is your secondary suspect?
Starts to change his mind on Acro
+ Show Spoiler [changing mind on acro] +On March 27 2013 06:18 Nisani201 wrote:
I just read through Acro's filter again and I could be wrong about him.
I want to believe Palmar is scum but I've been wrong about him in the past which is why I'm not pushing against him.
I don't really know who else is scum. All of the current candidates are pretty bad. I'm gonna look into Cora.
Converses with Marv, Marv sort of defending Sinani
+ Show Spoiler [marv commentary] +On March 28 2013 06:53 Nisani201 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 06:32 marvellosity wrote:On March 28 2013 06:28 Palmar wrote:
don't think he'll flip scum* I mean The thing is with sinani. Look at his last 3 mafia games on the database. He basically doesn't post. He's already posted more in this game than any of those 3 games where he was potentially alive for days. I'm not seeing it. Just because he's posting more in this game or "cares more" about this game doesn't mean he's scum/town. He has been apathetic as both scum and town, so that's indicative of nothing.
So I'm going to think out loud into the thread so we can discuss whether or not Sinani versus Acrofales was either something or nothing. Acro's vote on Sinani is a professed liar lynch vote. The lie, according to Sinani, was a lack of content in Acro's filter outside of his commentary on the Role PM situation. Looking at Acro's filter, there's plenty of chatter in there and some reactions to things in the thread, so this is pretty much a false case. Looking at it in retrospect, given the flip and Nisani's few final posts, we can see that Nisani was probably feeling kind of overwhelmed (as evidenced late in the day) but was able to remain composed given his imminent death.
IMO Maybe the most important thing to come of the lynch was the interaction with Marv, in the final spoiler. Nisani's just pretty much told us that sinani's activity is usually not alignment indicative. As far as I can see, Nisani was null on Sinani until very very late into the day where he called out Sinani for a bullshit case on him.
Sinani's vote on Nisani looks like a survival vote based on how one-sided the interaction was. Hapa's pressure could have been successful in garnering more votes and swaying things towards Sinani. For some reason I remember explicitly that Palmar stated he was okay with lynching either one. The one absolutely confirmed (flipped) town we have a read on Sinani was null for most of D1 and only near the end called Sinani scum for making bullshit up against him.
So some questions I think we should consider for night phase:
- Who was adamantly opposed to a Sinani lynch, and why?
- Review of Sinani, are we still considering him a candidate for tomorrow's lynch?
- How did the Nisani bandwagon form and who were the major factors in getting it started?
- Why did we have a shit-fest midway through the day that derailed any kind of consolidation discussion?
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Keirathi? You here still? Anyone else who isn't hiding for night phase? Do you guys not think my questions are worth pursuing tonight? I am about to dig into one or two of them momentarily but if nobody is gonna talk it out with me I'll save it for day phase.
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On March 28 2013 15:13 Keirathi wrote:And, OO, since you're here: You were so willing to hop on my bandwagon because I laughed off your post about me earlier in the game. Why did you run off and leave the thread instead of engaging me and trying to actually figure out if I was scum or not? For reference: Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 05:04 Keirathi wrote:On March 28 2013 04:59 ObviousOne wrote:
Just woke up and caught up.
If it's between Kei and Sinani I'll go with the former
Keirathi laughed off my suspicions of him early game and I thought that was related to a conversation we had pre-game where he told me to make silly cases. His response was "I've created a monster" and to me it looked like he was simply laughing it off in an offhandedly way -- as if my suspicions were just completely unfounded and terribly reasoned -- which later convinced me to drop it when nobody really commented on it.
As for Sinani I'm okay with lynching him based on participation level this game, the meta stuff doesn't fascinate me too terribly much in his case when I can barely remember he's even playing the game.
Again, I want to lynch Keirathi over Sinani. I was laughing it off. Because your points WERE completely unfounded and terribly reasoned. Your "case" boiled down to "Keir isn't playing day 1 like he did in Hydra". I literally had a total of like 15 posts in day 1 in Hydra; half of those were spam, and half were getting into an argument with mocsta defending marv/myself. You just completely ignored me. That doesn't seem like someone who cares if the person they are voting for is town or not.
Run off and leave at what point? In the hours before the lynch?
I'll flesh out my mindset on this while you clarify that point.
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On March 28 2013 15:13 Keirathi wrote:And, OO, since you're here: You were so willing to hop on my bandwagon because I laughed off your post about me earlier in the game. Why did you run off and leave the thread instead of engaging me and trying to actually figure out if I was scum or not? For reference: Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 05:04 Keirathi wrote:On March 28 2013 04:59 ObviousOne wrote:
Just woke up and caught up.
If it's between Kei and Sinani I'll go with the former
Keirathi laughed off my suspicions of him early game and I thought that was related to a conversation we had pre-game where he told me to make silly cases. His response was "I've created a monster" and to me it looked like he was simply laughing it off in an offhandedly way -- as if my suspicions were just completely unfounded and terribly reasoned -- which later convinced me to drop it when nobody really commented on it.
As for Sinani I'm okay with lynching him based on participation level this game, the meta stuff doesn't fascinate me too terribly much in his case when I can barely remember he's even playing the game.
Again, I want to lynch Keirathi over Sinani. I was laughing it off. Because your points WERE completely unfounded and terribly reasoned. Your "case" boiled down to "Keir isn't playing day 1 like he did in Hydra". I literally had a total of like 15 posts in day 1 in Hydra; half of those were spam, and half were getting into an argument with mocsta defending marv/myself. You just completely ignored me. That doesn't seem like someone who cares if the person they are voting for is town or not.
So you were my first scum read in the game. Clearly it wasn't very well founded, and nobody else seemed to agree with me or respond to any of my points at all. You even laughed at my comments regarding you, and I wasn't sure if you were laughing because a) of our pre-game conversation where you said to make trolly cases (which I thought your response indicated that you believed that was what I was doing or b) because the case was just bad in some way. Being my first case and coming in at around, what, 6-8 hours into D1, it was the best I had to go on at the time and I was willing to let it drop as I started to dislike Grackaroni.
I think part of the reason I'm still letting things drop is that most of the time I feel like I'm either not getting feedback or not even making good enough points for people to expound upon. This I attribute mostly to my relative lack of skill in identifying "proper" mafia traits, but getting feedback on them is really the only way I'm going to improve and when I get ignored as often as I do I don't get that opportunity to really develop anything. It would have been a lot simpler to have had one or two people say "obvious that case is shit, find something else" than to just let me bandy about on my own.
So since nobody talked about it, I just went with it. I owned that scum read on you, it was mine. I let it go to see how things would develop, and I instead targeted Grack (seeing how I'd traded one townie for another, that's not really reflecting well on me). You were still in the back of my mind, actually both you and Cora seemed slightly off to me. I didn't do do anything regarding Cora yet and now that won't even be necessary.
Here's what I'm thinking about right now, in response to this and while we're chatting. When I read interactions between you and Marv, I don't get the feeling that you're both playing for the same side. I also don't like that Marv concealed his case (he apparently was developing something for about a day and delayed releasing that information towards the end of the day cycle - his case on you). Marv is currently a person of interest to me.
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On March 28 2013 15:44 Keirathi wrote:
No, you're right. Saying "I've created a monster" was totally a reference to our pre-game conversations. I thought you would realize that I was implying that I thought your points were bullshit.
But, that's not what I'm asking. When the wagon started rolling on me, you just sheeped your old bogus read because I didn't respond to it. But, I did give a response when you said thats why you were sheeping onto me. A response that you could have easily validated for yourself by looking back at Hydra (and maybe asking me which posts were mine and which were marv's, since I tended not to sign my posts like...ever...and marv forgot sometimes too). I refuted your entire reasoning for jumping on my wagon, but you didn't reconsider your vote nor even talk with me and tell me why I was wrong.
That's a fair assessment of what I did, yes. I feel if it had been brought up hours before that I would have been more willing to talk about it, but can you fault me for thinking it was possible that you, as scum, might say anything to get out of a lynch? I was around but I was paying less attention than I should have been. It doesn't excuse it but I also jumped on Niasni for not giving a better alternative so at least I was consistent in that regard. Not sure there is a good answer to this question that doesn't involve me being terrible at arguing (IRL I don't argue often, I tend to let what is, be). (phone posting sorry it was slow)
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On March 28 2013 15:52 cDgCorazon wrote:By the way OO, I just want to let you know that coming in and saying that you haven't read your role PM is a pretty terrible way to get people to take you seriously. Words whispered on the chopping block have a lot less power than when you're not on the chopping block. The whole role pm crap did not help your case, and that's why people weren't as receptive to your reads. I really do like your post on page 66 (analyzing the lynch). It's definitely a point in your favor from me, and I will sleep on your questions and answer them in the morning, plenty of time before the deadline. I think a lot more thought needs to be given on Marv's timing of the Kei case and I can't wait to hear what Yamato is brewing up for tomorrow. + Show Spoiler +
He has no clue what he's talking about.
Sorry that was me just blatantly trying to be Chezinu. I'm sure nobody is a fan of that type of thing but fuck it, it was a throwback to appease our host because Kurumi <3 Chezinu.
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On March 28 2013 16:00 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 15:52 cDgCorazon wrote:By the way OO, I just want to let you know that coming in and saying that you haven't read your role PM is a pretty terrible way to get people to take you seriously. Words whispered on the chopping block have a lot less power than when you're not on the chopping block. The whole role pm crap did not help your case, and that's why people weren't as receptive to your reads. I really do like your post on page 66 (analyzing the lynch). It's definitely a point in your favor from me, and I will sleep on your questions and answer them in the morning, plenty of time before the deadline. I think a lot more thought needs to be given on Marv's timing of the Kei case and I can't wait to hear what Yamato is brewing up for tomorrow. + Show Spoiler +
He has no clue what he's talking about.
Sorry that was me just blatantly trying to be Chezinu. I'm sure nobody is a fan of that type of thing but fuck it, it was a throwback to appease our host because Kurumi <3 Chezinu.
To add, this is a game based on TL Mafia personalities among other things so it fit with the theme of the game even though there wasn't any flavor to draw from.
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I like this, I have an in-game coach.
I'm just looking at the timeline for when this conversation was happening to see if there's anything else I can describe about what was going on and mostly it's
On March 28 2013 04:59 ObviousOne wrote:
Just woke up and caught up.
On March 28 2013 05:01 ObviousOne wrote:
##Vote: Keirathi
On March 28 2013 05:17 ObviousOne wrote:
Brb after coffee
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In the interests of participating in this conversation, I'm filtering prplhz.
ISH purports that prplhz' scum meta suggests not reading the thread and making up bullshit cases when people think he is mafia. I'm not seeing that here. I am getting the same general feeling about his play that I had in Nomination before I knew he was town there. I'm not going to pretend I'm any good at meta but it I go by feeling and ISH's description then prp's filter supports a town read. Towards the end of what is there he's even trying to keep things cool in the thread, and presents an interesting tidbit about Sinani.
On March 28 2013 05:24 prplhz wrote:
sinani206 is showing some classic illusion of grandeur in his "I know Nisani201 so just sheep me" post. That's how I remember town sinani206 while scum sinani206 doesn't want to do much and just tries to get other player's sympathy.
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On March 28 2013 16:20 ObviousOne wrote:In the interests of participating in this conversation, I'm filtering prplhz. ISH purports that prplhz' scum meta suggests not reading the thread and making up bullshit cases when people think he is mafia. I'm not seeing that here. I am getting the same general feeling about his play that I had in Nomination before I knew he was town there. I'm not going to pretend I'm any good at meta but it I go by feeling and ISH's description then prp's filter supports a town read. Towards the end of what is there he's even trying to keep things cool in the thread, and presents an interesting tidbit about Sinani. Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 05:24 prplhz wrote:
sinani206 is showing some classic illusion of grandeur in his "I know Nisani201 so just sheep me" post. That's how I remember town sinani206 while scum sinani206 doesn't want to do much and just tries to get other player's sympathy.
I note this because it's semi-related to one of the questions I brought up earlier regarding whether or not Sinani is on the block tomorrow.
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On March 28 2013 16:24 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 16:20 ObviousOne wrote:In the interests of participating in this conversation, I'm filtering prplhz. ISH purports that prplhz' scum meta suggests not reading the thread and making up bullshit cases when people think he is mafia. I'm not seeing that here. I am getting the same general feeling about his play that I had in Nomination before I knew he was town there. I'm not going to pretend I'm any good at meta but it I go by feeling and ISH's description then prp's filter supports a town read. Towards the end of what is there he's even trying to keep things cool in the thread, and presents an interesting tidbit about Sinani. On March 28 2013 05:24 prplhz wrote:
sinani206 is showing some classic illusion of grandeur in his "I know Nisani201 so just sheep me" post. That's how I remember town sinani206 while scum sinani206 doesn't want to do much and just tries to get other player's sympathy. We are talking about prplhz before this post: Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 22:04 prplhz wrote:
@Palmar If scum had an anonymous dayvig then why didn't they shoot you dead? Or just about anybody other than Grackaroni since he was causing quite the ruckus. Everything after that is what I expect from town prplhz and why he wasn't a lynch candidate later in the day.
Okay, so above that he just asks a bunch of questions for the most part, one comment about Rayn being frustrated. I'll take a look at Nomination.
Early D1 nomination [town] features a lot of paragraphs and looks like real interest in the thread (genuine interest). Trying to get Oats/Moc to stop throwing shit on eachother (peacekeeping). Overall he looks committed to hunting scum right off the bat even as he catches up with the thread.
That game looks a lot tighter in terms of being town than this game, but it's not out of the question. I wouldn't give him a green stamp just for his early D1 contributions but D1 looks OK to me right now looking back at it as an entire day. It feels similar to me, but his pokes in this game (again, for the early portion of the day) are much more brief and he pokes quite a few people with not a lot of followup except about Acrofales. Is Acro a person of interest for any of you guys, as well?
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On March 28 2013 16:40 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 16:35 ObviousOne wrote:On March 28 2013 16:24 Keirathi wrote:On March 28 2013 16:20 ObviousOne wrote:In the interests of participating in this conversation, I'm filtering prplhz. ISH purports that prplhz' scum meta suggests not reading the thread and making up bullshit cases when people think he is mafia. I'm not seeing that here. I am getting the same general feeling about his play that I had in Nomination before I knew he was town there. I'm not going to pretend I'm any good at meta but it I go by feeling and ISH's description then prp's filter supports a town read. Towards the end of what is there he's even trying to keep things cool in the thread, and presents an interesting tidbit about Sinani. On March 28 2013 05:24 prplhz wrote:
sinani206 is showing some classic illusion of grandeur in his "I know Nisani201 so just sheep me" post. That's how I remember town sinani206 while scum sinani206 doesn't want to do much and just tries to get other player's sympathy. We are talking about prplhz before this post: On March 27 2013 22:04 prplhz wrote:
@Palmar If scum had an anonymous dayvig then why didn't they shoot you dead? Or just about anybody other than Grackaroni since he was causing quite the ruckus. Everything after that is what I expect from town prplhz and why he wasn't a lynch candidate later in the day. Okay, so above that he just asks a bunch of questions for the most part, one comment about Rayn being frustrated. I'll take a look at Nomination. Early D1 nomination [town] features a lot of paragraphs and looks like real interest in the thread (genuine interest). Trying to get Oats/Moc to stop throwing shit on eachother (peacekeeping). Overall he looks committed to hunting scum right off the bat even as he catches up with the thread. That game looks a lot tighter in terms of being town than this game, but it's not out of the question. I wouldn't give him a green stamp just for his early D1 contributions but D1 looks OK to me right now looking back at it as an entire day. It feels similar to me, but his pokes in this game (again, for the early portion of the day) are much more brief and he pokes quite a few people with not a lot of followup except about Acrofales. Is Acro a person of interest for any of you guys, as well? Ding ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Why was Smurf 100% absolutely positively sure that prplhz was town last night, before all the rest of what prplhz posted after the one I quoted? I don't particularly want to talk about Acro right now. But feel free if you have some thoughts.
We can talk about Acro later, preferably with prplhz as part of the conversation if he's going to be picking up that torch again.
Also, it looks like "questioning people's town reads" is going to be the general theme for this game. Before with Marv's town read on me, and this with ISH on prplhz.
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On March 28 2013 16:45 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP:
And for that matter, you aren't even my STRONGEST scum read. In my top 3, though.
I get the feeling I am on this list =[
Guess I better work on that. Before you go sleep which of the things I mentioned I wanted to talk about earlier will get us further towards the right track tonight in your opinion?
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On March 28 2013 17:26 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 08:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Palmar why did you agree to the Keirathi lynch pushed by your scumread marv and agreed by your other scumread me? on the off chance I was wrong.
He (we, as in Palmar and I) were already wrong on Grack. It could be a fatal disease for both of us. In re-reading the thread (I'm up to p21) I'm leaning town on Rayn btw. You still leaning town on Rayn, Palmar? That's the last I remember of you mentioning him off the top of my head.
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EPT
