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I thought even Mocsta touched on VE's town meta in his case. Personally I (omni) have never played with VE but I worked it out another way for scum VE to still make sense to me without meta, and that was determining that a mafia Newbie would never have made the NK on Dirk and therefore my previous suspicions had been wrong. Obviously wrong about Dirk, and through a town Dirk, probably wrong about Newbie. Rather than knowing how VE plays I tried to use process of elimination and found that I could not eliminate the possibility of a scum ObliviousEyes.
I also think his caps lock contest was really scummy considering how he has been behaving all game up to that point. It comes across to me as being WAY over defensive. People mention he might be scum and he flips out? It's pretty telling behavior. I believe he is scum.
This still leaves us with 1 more candidate though and it's why I said I wanted to hear back from Golems as he was suspected during D1, came back and did what he needed to survive and then left again.
Hope that clears up any confusion about my vote DrP.
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On March 16 2013 15:38 TLCastingGolems wrote:
and you all are posting and reading based on you all knowing each other, which I do not.
I can kind of understand where you are coming from with this, I was a little concerned when everybody was making meta calls on VE when I have never played with anybody (other than you WoS) before. I had to try and approach why VE looked scum from a completely different angle as everybody else so that it would make sense to me and I'd be able to actually see him as scum vs sheeping blindly and hoping everybody else knows what they are talking about.
That being said I didn't find it very hard after looking through the filters of OE/Dirk/Newbie to realize that OE scum makes sense after Dirk's flip and the way he reacted to being called scum although somebody said VE can be very emotional to me still seems very scummy. IMO I'd rather lynch my top scum read (OE) over lynching Golems just to keep VE in the game longer. I can't really say I understand the point of doing that.
As I've said previously I do like some of what Golems has posted and I'm not anywhere near being sold that he's our 2nd scum without a doubt, so I'd rather go with the players more likely to be scum.
basically
VE - Strong scum read
TLGolems - Weak scum read
Prom - null (leaning town)
Newbie - null (leaning town)
So I want my strong scum read lynched.
Everybody else I have some kind of town read on at the moment.
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EBWOP: I referred to OE as 'players' more likely to be scum.
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hmm I thought OE were iffy yesterday and the points raised against him do make sense to indicate scum #1- the lack of presence from either head this cycle is also condemning.
What i dont get is: if scum OE was voting and hunting Hardpec Day1; why shoot them Night 1?
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I've read over the CastingGolems a few times now. And I am still not seeing them try to take any "accountability".
Even with the whole "posting without consulting each other" bullshit earlier.... are we not all in that situation?
Fact is, I know I am town; Omni knows he is town; even though he is less experienced than me, I trust him to post and scum hunt when I am not around. Yes we share opinions and reads, but i dont need to proof-read him...
Whats odd with CastingGolems, is that they need to hold each others hand in order to post. Why is that?
Wave even went out of the way to say that jcarlsoniv is more experienced than I; so this attitude is sticking out like a sore thumb for me. Regardless of hydra dynamics, []b]town shouldnt fear not proof-reading posts etc [/b]
Im reading newbie scum right here.
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Give me 10~ minutes and I'll make some time to post. I also think lynching Golems over OE is a dumb idea... I'm not sure why that is even a topic when you are 100% sure of OE and still think there are other scum candidates other than Golems. I want to lynch scum, not maybe get his scum buddy based on some association of bussing before OE flips. I think you are putting the cart before the horse when talking about lynching Golems or anybody other than OE today.
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The blue claim seems fake to me. Or at least unbelievable.
"oops I meant to write town"
to
"I thought he did it intentionally to keep us from being lynched but nope it was just a bad mistake"
I'm still saying we should lynch VE/OO rather than Golems because I believe its a higher chance of lynching scum. Once OE flips and it is CONFIRMED that he is scum, the points made about Golems odd comments about Prom being scum while OE is voting for him and the fact that Prom was the one who singled out OE can be explained much more clearly.
To me it looks like Golems is trying to separate himself from OE while also trying to shift around blame where he can. He has even admitted to not really reading the thread while still throwing out accusations. That's not a very town-oriented move. It is what scum does when they start to feel pressured. Town reads and comes to an educated conclusion and then gives their thoughts. Scum throws crap at a wall and hopes something sticks.
However Golems was not the only one to try to get off the topic of OE scum or not quite believe it 100% and try to curve the lynch to others.
+ Show Spoiler + On March 16 2013 09:40 NewbieXXXI_ObsQT wrote:##UnvoteI'm too damn paranoid. The simplest explanation for the NK is that marv ordered the kill. I don't know how likely that is, but I need to pursue it to see if it has merit. It was a fucking weird-ass NK for anyone here to make, and today shouldn't be a "sheep marv blindly" day without additional reasons to trust him. @ MarvThere are two reasons why I'm concerned. 1) You did something very similar in DeathNote Mini, where you wanted to kill Palmar on Day 1, but couldn't because of wonky-kill mechanics and the town mislynching Palmar Day 1. 2) Palmar does have a history of trolling Day 1. DeathNote Mini comes to mind, where he just made like 2 posts the entirety of the day. As such, this explanation in your "martyr" post comes across as dishonest: Show nested quote +Dirk Hardpec - so yes, this guy is mafia. It's clear enough, it's been mentioned why - the trolling, the "I knew he'd flip town but did nothing about doing something else", the lack of anything. On March 16 2013 03:47 Dirk Hardpec wrote:
Please hold some of your questions. I'll convince yall I'm town tomorrow. Do *not* be fooled by this. This is typical vettish scumplay from Palmar (probably bugs too). I'll contribute later... just you wait... I'll prove I'm town... and then there'll be a post that these players are very capable of making look good or convincing. What you need to remember is that they have not contributed in the slightest so far. That's actually the important issue. Don't forget, also, that Palmar is well known for having Day 1 as his absolute best day. Like, by far. He catches mafia regularly Day 1, and tails off after. There's a post he made about this in the obsQT for Hero Mini Mafia if you're really interested in checking what I've said. The salient point being that theoretical town-Palmar has wasted his absolute best day of catching mafia, on the offhand promise that he'll do better tomorrow, and willingly lynching into town. He must die. Palmar does waste Day 1's as town. Not often, but he does. This is a pretty clear misrepresentation of his play, and you definetely know his history.
I have to say I still believe Newbie to be null-town but it should be pointed out that Golems was not alone in making strange accusations. Marv is one of my town reads and I understand you were just trying to come to a better understanding of the Dirk NK but I still feel trying to place blame on marv for the NK was odd.
as for my inactivity, sorry. As mentioned before my house got gassed and it's a large cleaning job. (5 bedrooms, takes about 4 hours to clean each one + living room / dining room / kitchen ect.) And for Mocsta I think it's like 5am for him right now. I read to keep up with the conversations but unless I make time I can't reply as much as I would like. However I am making an effort to keep up with the conversations.
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I don't think I'd have an issue with the blue claim if he could at least back it up. And then he tells us he JK'd Newbie instead of yourself or Marv which I would have thought would be the two targets scum would have wanted to get rid of N1. Instead he takes a shot in the dark hoping that not only would Newbie be mafia but that he would also be the one doing the NK. The chance is just so much smaller to stop the NK that way.
I agree his blue claim is extremely weak. There is no proof behind it and it is extremely sloppy. It's a bit of WIFOM but I think it's exactly the scenario that scum would fall into after accidentally claiming blue rather than saying town.
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I agree that last post where he fails to name ANYBODY other than OE as scum is really troubling... To me it makes it seem like he is extremely non-committal. Nobody else has a problem listing the two people they believe are scum and would like to lynch. Golems seems to be aware that if he said OE was anything other than scum it would be bad for him, and then is so wishy-washy with everybody else. It's like he's afraid to follow up on anything he has said and wants to let others make the cases first so he can jump on which ever of the three null reads he's got and sheep his way to victory.
I don't think he actually cares who gets lynched today. Especially after admitting he released his "current reads" without them being current at all.
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EBWOP: Actually, he's done this twice now where his reads are not current but he doesn't seem to care. Once as you mentioned as he continued to pressure you after Dirk flipped town, and again now on Prom.
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On March 17 2013 07:43 NewbieXXXI_ObsQT wrote:
Anywho Moology, where do you stand on Caster right now? Do you still unequivocally support an ObliviousEyes lynch first?
Yes, Although I do believe Golems is our 2nd scum, I see no reason to lynch him over OE today. After OE flips scum all of this will stop being speculation, Prom will imo without a doubt be town and Golems will be guilty.
I admit I've had some bad calls by switching to my 2nd scum read for votes lately and that is also weighing on my mind. I'd much rather lynch my top scum read than lynch Golems with even the slightest chance that he's actually our JK and he's just played everything terribly up till now. I guess his blue claim as much as it seems awful does still give me 2nd thoughts. I don't think any townie should be fine to just lynch a blue claim with no counter even with all this evidence against him.
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Sure thing.
Although Prom hasn't said very much really, Almost less than me. if OE flips scum he'll be town in my book though. No reason for him to start the lynch on OE if they were both mafia. For now he's null. They claimed to be busy and I can understand exactly how much that takes away from being able to post.
DrP is my strongest town read. His back and forth with Mocsta at the very start put him as townie imo. He continues to scum hunt and nearly everything he has said resonates town to me. The constant change in opinion from Thrawn/Oats is a little concerning but at the same time I don't think town really needs to worry about having different opinions where scum would be the ones who need to always be on the same page. Maybe I'm thinking about that wrong but imo it makes sense in a hydra game.
FT is right behind DrP and is also a town read for me. He seemed genuinely upset (and imo mistaken) that people were just going to sheep his vote and stop scum hunting for the rest of the day. Both DrP and FT have made their thoughts on who is town/scum very clear and the reasoning behind it is sound. It's for that reason I thought one of them would have made a good NK target and also why I found it so strange when Golems said he JK'd you (newbie) instead of one of them.
You as well seem town in my book because of the way the Dirk lynch was set up. I can't see you as being scum and basically lining yourself up to be lynched today to get rid of DIRK. If Prom hadn't got on VE's case and called him out / forced him to handle the pressure so poorly I think you would have the majority of votes right now competing with Golems instead of VE. For that reason you are also null - leaning town until the flip of VE.
This is another reason why I want to see VE dead. When he flips scum I can move both yourself and Prom to town and as I know I am town, this only leaves Golems left to be scum.
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morning all.
Interesting claim to wake up to.
Newbie thoughts on those 3 players
(1) FT - I got a good town read on them
(2) Dr.P - Done some weird shit this cycle (voted themselves) but still my best town read
(3) Newbies - You guys are becoming better town read.... BUT.. i get the feeling it is only hapa posting ??!?!?!??!
(4) Prome - I dont agree with marvs basis for a strong town read. I think good mafia can be flexible; + his first reaction was to ask "is it a loaded question"... (to me, indicating: he is thinking critically how answering this question will *AFFECT* his perceived image)
As an aside its important to note, I dont think full meta reads apply to this game. You and another hydra head to ground you and help influence you to decisions you would not normally make. I think Marvs point was that the about turn came in minutes... but does it really take *just* minutes to re-read a filter and change your mind? I think it takes more time, so i dont find FTs "town read" relevant.
Final Stance
I am for a VE lynch. I still don't get why a scum would shoot their main "scumspect" but, that it is only OO posting makes me just go *ignore, lets lynch*
CastingGolems are the #2. I dont like the claim; having gone to the OP we are not certain on the # of blues. So unless we have 2 other blues in the mix (Not asking for a claim).. I dont know how valid it is.. i mean.. I could say we were JK and jailed Marv..Why should that statement alone keep me in the game?
The context the claim out with; and HOW it came out with.. i dunno just smells real fishy.
I *Still* want to see more accountability from Casting and develop a proper case vs sheep.case. They have essentially 24hrs to produce the goods.
(moc)
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On March 17 2013 08:20 NewbieXXXI_ObsQT wrote:Show nested quote +(3) Newbies - You guys are becoming better town read.... BUT.. i get the feeling it is only hapa posting ??!?!?!??! Yep. Iamp is being lazy... he says I'm doing well enough for the both of us >>
hahaha 
My reason for the change is that I had started to run with some crazy theories in my mind to try and work out the Dirk NK, one of them being if you were the scum team with VE and he did it to intentionally make you the next lynch so you could say exactly what I brought up about you being the most likely lynch after Dirk... and it started to hurt my head and I decided I was reading way too far into things and deleted it all. Some if that evidently still came through in my posts though.
(Omni)
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On March 17 2013 08:20 NewbieXXXI_ObsQT wrote:Show nested quote +(3) Newbies - You guys are becoming better town read.... BUT.. i get the feeling it is only hapa posting ??!?!?!??! Yep. Iamp is being lazy... he says I'm doing well enough for the both of us >>
Thats a problem for me.
The issue I had with your play was
You were coming across townie to me
& iamp.. well. . lets just say he wasnt.
If now all you are doing is posting... well... i have concerns.
Franky. i dont get two shits about judging the "hydra".. because..
Guys like me/Omni are here at different timezones (7.20am sunday here); I have to trust his reads are on the same page as me... Your completely avoiding this accountability.
Thing is.. from what I am aware, you spew bullshit when scum; and im not seeing that. so i would still go with town; i just think its important that iamp posts as well.
BTW.. just realised, points like the above, is stuff Omni will have no clue about (hes only played newbies).. so yeha, our raeds can differ until i give him context.
(moc)
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On March 17 2013 08:31 FiveTouch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 08:19 Moology wrote:
(4) Prome - I dont agree with marvs basis for a strong town read. I think good mafia can be flexible; + his first reaction was to ask "is it a loaded question"... (to me, indicating: he is thinking critically how answering this question will *AFFECT* his perceived image)
As an aside its important to note, I dont think full meta reads apply to this game. You and another hydra head to ground you and help influence you to decisions you would not normally make. I think Marvs point was that the about turn came in minutes... but does it really take *just* minutes to re-read a filter and change your mind? I think it takes more time, so i dont find FTs "town read" relevant.
You are missing the point entirely. Yes, scum can be flexible *WHEN THEY HAVE TO BE*. To play scum well, you have to be able to read thread atmosphere, and know how to 1) manipulate it, and 2) use it to know who you can push for a successful mislynch. Everything about the thread atmosphere at the time when Promato was talking about ObsQT was pointing towards ObsQT being a very possible lynch candidate. Scum don't shut down a potential mislynch option for themselves for no reason whatsoever. If thread atmosphere is turning, they will "change their minds" etc, but that was not the case at the time. I think its very, very, very unlikely that Promato is scum.
Well my perspective is:
(1) If they are scum; they *KNOW* your alignment.. im thinking you are town, and the thread atmosphere indicates the same thought.
So
(2) if someone you know is town; and everyone else thinks their town; and has a reputation for solving games comes and puts soft-pressure on you: do you cock up and stick to your guns; or be soft and play the nice-guy card.
Survival instincts, and typical mafia play suggest: be jelly every time.
Fact is: Day1, usually there are multiple candidates to consider (as either alignment). I think as scum, its a low risk option to discard a current read, to appease someone you are threatened by. + can always play the "reads subject to change card" to shift them back into the limelight. Survival suggest playing the long game; not the short one....
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one
(moc)
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On March 17 2013 08:31 NewbieXXXI_ObsQT wrote:
and dealing with flood control when you have two spammy townies on the same hydra is annoying as fuck.
Truest words spoken this game. Now i just need to hear it on the podcat in that deep sultry voice 
Franky. i dont get two shits about judging the "hydra".. because..
Guys like me/Omni are here at different timezones (7.20am sunday here); I have to trust his reads are on the same page as me... Your completely avoiding this accountability.
(Hapa)Huh? Not sure what you're getting at with the "accountability" thing. Perhaps i worded that harshly. I meant, if one guy is coming across not townie; and one guy is coming across townie. To me its concerning the "not townie" guy stops posting. The net effect is, your townie stock rises - but in my opinion artificially.
The point is: I understand the hydra speaks for both parties. and we have a QT; so technically one guy could represent the hydra publicly all the time; whilst they are actively 'debating' in the QT.
Its just, with timezone differences we get scenarios where people have to post "off-the-cuff" and we have already seen Marv pin down OO for that.
i.e. OO was held accountable for a post he made that represented his hydra.
Hence, if iamp is being perceived negatively, I think its odd, that he would stop posting. *It also times well with OO being nailed*
Look, as I said before, my town read on *you* is strong enough to not put much weight into this currently. But if the game was to continue down this path, I would be concerned.
(moc)
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Kei,
as I said before: I am going to have to agree to disagree.
Two different trains of thought.
Regardless, promato are not my primary concern for this cycle; its OE / TLCastingGolems.
Be back in maybe 6hrs if anyone has questions for moology
(moc)
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On March 17 2013 11:45 TLCastingGolems wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:39 FiveTouch wrote:
The point is, ObsQT just posted about how you played in LX, making cases on multiple Toms, Dicks, and Harrys. In this game, you haven't given a solid reason to be suspicious of ANYONE. What gives? *shrug* it's different playing as a hydra. My contribution level probably looks less than it feels because of how much me and him were collaborating early on. You never answered me before, it might have been lost in my post. What do you think of Moology?
I'm not against hearing an update from FT but why aren't you giving a more detailed read on me instead of asking other people to do it? It's like you are accepting the fact that you haven't made any cases, but then saying "well... too bad huh?" and still expecting other people to pick up that slack.
"Moo and Newbie I'm leaving null because I'm still not convinced they aren't scum. Newbie less so than Moo, he's been quite active, and the pressure on us I feel is more town motivated than scum jumping on a scummy player."
You don't even actually say what you think about me here...
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EPT
