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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 07 2013 20:16 glurio wrote: I find jcarlsoniv to be much scummier. I believe he is either 3rd party or scum. (Right now im obviously leaning 3rd party.) Thats why i vote for him. What exactly about him do you find scummy? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 07 2013 20:43 glurio wrote: Look at randombums case it's quite good. I have some issues with randombum's case. + Show Spoiler + On March 07 2013 12:33 randombum wrote: I don't think glurio is scum. Or at least I don't think he's scummier than a lot of people here. I've left this alone for a while because there's been a clear consensus on who to lynch and I didn't want to divert the thread, but I think it's time we lynched jcarl. He's been riding as scummy looking in the back of a lot of people's mind, but nobody has come out super strongly against him. His filter is short enough that everybody can go read it right now. Here are the things out of his filter that I would like you to notice and reach the same conclusion as me. That he is scum. Utter lack of commitment to reads. I've pointed this out before but, starts with a case on vayesh/vivax and drops them with minimal explanation. He then tries to push JJ because everybody thought JJ looked scummy, but now that JJ looks good his response is: + Show Spoiler + On March 04 2013 09:18 jcarlsoniv wrote: Yeah, I no longer believe JJ to be scum. After the RB claim and the subsequent RO flip, JJ looks pretty good. I'm not sure about aqua, but I'm somewhat inclined to listen to WF this go around. Jcarl reads will follow wherever the town is leaning. He will also drop down his "reads" with no backing whatsoever. Dropping a scumread on an un-counterclaimed power role (JungleJorge) IS NOT SCUMMY. This point from randombum is really sloppy. Dropping a scumread on Vayesh given additional information (and the advent of actual useful play from Vayesh, as I recall) IS NOT SCUMMY. And I don't think he ever had a serious case on Vivax in the first place. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On March 06 2013 11:30 jcarlsoniv wrote: Not quite sure at the moment. I was fairly sure that either geript or hassy would flip scum. I feel like there's one (if not both) in the following list: WoS, DrH, WF, randombum, Macho Man Need to relook though. He throws down 5 names in a game of 15 remaining players. One of whom has since flipped town. More importantly he doesn't say why. He says he will relook, but it's been over a day since he claimed he would re-look and hasn't come back with anything. Maybe because everybody keeps ignoring me and goes after people not named jcarl. It's even more damning because literally 2 posts after he puts + Show Spoiler + On March 06 2013 14:26 jcarlsoniv wrote: DrH himself (the one you've been so keen to buddy up to most of the thread) said earlier this game: Someone who says they are going to do something and never does it is probably scum (I may be paraphrasing). But he hasn't come back to do what he said he would do. Not actually making the reads he said he would is bad, I agree. By comparison, TestSubject hasn't even promised to give reads. TS has done nothing. This thread is pretty damn long and I can understand if it's taken jcarlsoniv more time than he thought to come to a conclusion (it certainly did for me). That being said I would really like to see jcarlsoniv's reads. + Show Spoiler + Hard defense of chezniu. It's self evident in his filter, but he clearly defended chezniu and hard. He claims hard defending scum is a town tell because only an idiot mafia wouldn't bus his teammate when chez was clearly next to be lynched. But chez's lynch wasn't truly set in stone. If you look at the final vote-counts http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400335¤tpage=6#105 Chez only had 13 votes. And RO (known scum) could switch at any time. Furthermore if they somehow manage to cause a no-lynch then they get an extra night kill. If they are super lucky they somehow get people to forget chez and lynch geript the next day giving them another night with 2 kills. Point being, he tried really hard to save his scum mate, but the plan backfired so he goes: "Oh, that's not a scum tell its actually a town tell to try to push a lynch off a mafia and into a townie." I don't buy it. I don't quite know what to make of his hard defence of chezinu. He does have a point that chezinu was clearly going to be the lynch (geript wagon never really took off D2, despite the number of votes it ended up with - BH would have squashed it with fire if it got really threatening). WIFOM at best here. TestSubject on the other hand voted Chezinu and then contributed to swinging the lynch onto Geript, without unvoting Chezinu. All the votes were on one or the other, one of them was going to get a majority - why not just vote Geript? Answer: Doesn't want to look too scummy when it doesn't work. Or if it does, for that matter. + Show Spoiler + Contradictory It starts with: Willing to sheep BH on a geript vote. Then says after geript and hassy die Bold mine. Into He is now trying to make Wade look bad, when he has been willing to sheep him and stated that he felt wades reads were correct? I'm gonna be honest, I badly wanted to rub Wade's nose in the fact that he'd mislynched Geript too. I see no reason to think jcarlsoniv is scum simply because he has less self-control than I do. I believe I've shown that for every point in randombum's case, either it doesn't make jcarlsoniv scummy or TestSubject looks worse on the same metric. Understand: This is not a town read on jcarlsoniv. This is a statement that TestSubject is much more likely to flip scum than jcarlsoniv. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
I want one of two things from everyone who posts before I come back: 1) A vote for TestSubject OR 2) An explanation for why they're not voting for TestSubject (issues with my case, or reasons why they think their case is stronger Oh, and Layabout: "Aqua is scum LYNCH HIM" is not sufficient reason for you not to be voting TestSubject. I've explained why I think the cases on jcarlsoniv and glurio are not strong enough for my vote. As for the other mentioned targets today: Aquanim - I'm not scum WaveofShadow - I'd prefer not to lynch someone based solely on an association case, even with a flipped scum. MS I believe you've expressed the opinion that WoS is town-y. You're going to need more than some tenuous association with Restraining Order to lynch WoS. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 07 2013 23:51 layabout wrote: i'd would've sworn aqua had pointed it out but it appear he didn't killing vivax today would be a sack of stupid. I was asleep. Killing vivax today would indeed be a sack of stupid. JJ, if I wanted to start lynching uncounterclaimed power roles today I'd start with you. Also, Vivax is town and was town before he claimed Vigilante. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 07 2013 23:26 MilkSuckler wrote: Aquanim, The case on TestSubject893 hasn't swayed me. Maybe my heuristics are flawed, but, I still see honesty and confusion in his posts; so my vote won't go there. I see no honesty, merely prevarication. On March 07 2013 23:27 layabout wrote: We are not lynching testsubject since he looks town. Care to explain this? Did you even read his damn filter? TS has done NOTHING helpful this entire game. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 07 2013 23:36 The Macho Man wrote: how about we stop being silly and actually listen to me..... glurios one thing he contributed is to think he is going after third party it looks like to me he has no intrest in actually finding scum.... thats scummy He is by far the best lynch. That was indeed awful and if when I come back before lynch it's a choice between no-lynch and glurio I will vote glurio. Same for jcarlsoniv, though that lynch is giving me more bad feelings. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 08 2013 02:09 TestSubject893 wrote: In NMM37 I claimed tracker in what was effectively my first post. You can imagine that being the obvious night target might change how I play. On top of that, the I for the most part disagreed with what some of the town players were saying in that game and felt the need to steer public opinion. I am much more in alignment with most players reads in this game and haven't found a need to be as vocal to get the suspicion onto the right people. Sure, whatever. I'd expect a townie you to be trying to make *something* happen in the thread though. Show me one example of a question that fits this description. You're just making things up to support your conclusion. Let me rephrase this. I don't see any unifying, scumhunting mentality behind your play as a whole. You're asking questions, but I can't see anything coming from any of them. Since you already had my filter open, how about you take a look at the posts I already made addressing this. If those aren't enough for you I'm happy to add more, but I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself. Yeah you came up with a plausible explanation, but there are often plausible explanations for things scum do. Same as day 1. I've explained already, and am happy to explain more, but I'm not going to repeat myself. How on earth is this trying to swing the lynch to geript. I say in the post you quoted that a no-lynch is concerning to me, and again in my filter you can see that its my opinion that a lynch of chez or geript would have been fine with me, but I want to avoid a no-lynch at all costs. You're putting words in my mouth and drawing ridiculous conclusions. I'm not comfortable with your willingness to swing to geript given that you've already said "we must lynch chezinu today". This isn't damning on its own I agree but it certainly doesn't give me a town read on you. What trend? You haven't established one. Geript was shitting up the thread for all of D3, and honestly I'm not sure what you expected me to post. How is this a mark against me? The trend towards you not ever posting any decent reads or thoughts and displaying no inclination to hunt scum, which continues even now. Is this a joke? Of course I don't have an explanation. Are you gonna ask vivax why he got the same response here as prom who flipped scum? How about the one that really does stick out: the maybe on layabout? Looks like RO is trying to be ready to take credit for knowing layabout was scum without drawing attention to him. BETTER LYNCH LAYABOUT NOW, AMIRITE? So your point here is that I had a null read on RO? Yeah, I did, you caught me. He wasn't really a high priority to lynch for me. Better kill everyone who thought that way, all dozen of us. Yeah I should have been clearer about this. All I was trying to show here was that your interactions with RO aren't inconsistent with scum, not that they directly make you scum. This case is entirely baseless and frankly, I don't see how it could be anything but an attempt to distract town from reaching a majority before the day is over. For now my vote stays on jcarl because we need to get one of the scummy players to 8. Should we need to I'd be glad to switch my vote to the clearly panicked Aquanim. Or, alternatively, you're scum. How is this case "panicked"? wtf. | ||
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Aquanim
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- Pretty much all of the points after the first one are "this isn't incompatible with scum, but not directly scummy" - TestSubject hasn't done ANYTHING of scumhunting worth all game - His tone throughout the entire game is hesitant and non-committal - After defending my case he leaves without having anything further to say about the cases today than "oh look jcarlson hasn't responded to randombum let's vote him" a few hours earlier. Is this a man who cares about the lynch in < 8 hours? No no it is not. There have been two kinds of defences of TestSubject so far: - "Oh he looks townie" Have you actually reassessed him since N1? - "Such-and-such a point is weak" Yeah some of them are but the thing which actually makes him scum (i.e. his overall tone and content) is not. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 08 2013 06:10 layabout wrote: wave those people are not seriously pushing lynches they are just wasting our time with votes that will not count towards anything I am seriously pushing the TS lynch because he is scum. I am willing to sheep on another wagon in the interests of obtaining a majority. Glurio is my preference in this case. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 08 2013 06:12 Aquanim wrote: - After defending my case he leaves without having anything further to say about the cases today than "oh look jcarlson hasn't responded to randombum let's vote him" a few hours earlier. Is this a man who cares about the lynch in < 8 hours? No no it is not. EBWOP: I've realised this isn't quite true, he actually does mention the jcarlsoniv case again. If he hadn't done anything that would be incredibly scummy - his lacklustre comment leaves me at null on this point. Carry on. | ||
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Aquanim
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On March 08 2013 06:23 TestSubject893 wrote: Ok, aqua, the only thing of any substance I took from that post was this: And this too is BS. Nowhere do I say "Chez has to be lynched today". I say what amounts to "Chez has to be lynched". How is responding positively to someone saying "If we're going to kill both Chez and geript, maybe we should kill geript first" contradictory to this? The rest of that posts amounts to you saying "Yeah, those are good reason for doing stuff, but do you know who really wants to be able to explain their actions? SCUM!". Your case is bad; trying to stick with it even though I've shown you its bad is a scumtell. The case isn't panicked; you are. There is no reason to make such a terrible case unless you're trying to distract town. If it weren't 3 hours before the lynch with no votes on you, I'd demand we kill you now. Instead I guess I'll have to make due with demanding we kill you tomorrow. You want to show my case is terrible? How about giving some decent reads or hunting scum FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS ENTIRE GAME. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On March 08 2013 06:26 TestSubject893 wrote: Are you telling me the only reason you think I'm scum is because other people have written more cases than me? If this is the only indicator to you, why is grush not 1000 times scummier? Grush is notoriously useless. You are not. And it's not just cases, I can't see any indication that you're looking for scum at all. When I read your filter my feeling is that you're saying "don't look at me, I'm not here", not "which one of you lot is scum?" That being said I will consider Grush again tomorrow. | ||
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Aquanim
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On March 08 2013 06:35 TestSubject893 wrote: Just because I don't spam the thread doesn't mean I'm not looking for scum. I've been asking questions when I need to, and sharing reads when I need to. Just because other people are more vocal doesn't indicate anything about me. You're drawing the conclusions you want to draw. If the entirety of your read is based on that one point alone, why write that whole case? I'll tell you why: to distract the town and cause a no-lynch. Aquanim is scum. Lynch him D5. Nice OMGUS. You're going to have to do a lot better than that to lynch me. Seriously though, if you want to actually convince me rather than just make noise, you're going to have to start actually doing things. Pressure your reads, make cases, whatever. Saying "Oh, I'm looking for scum you just can't see it" isn't good enough. And claiming I want a no-lynch based on that case is bloody absurd. | ||
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Aquanim
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On March 08 2013 06:40 TestSubject893 wrote: That case is bad and you know its bad. You've practically admitted that the case itself is irrelevant. Why post a useless case if not to distract us? I never said the case was bad, I said that the other points were not in as of themselves incriminating, merely indicative. I haven't seen a case yet today which doesn't have some points which aren't slam-dunks. The first point - that you've sat on your ass and done nothing of worth this game and tried to make yourself sound like you're not worth listening to - is sufficient to make the case. If that case makes anyone here reread your filter and make a decision for themselves it wasn't useless. Besides, I have a responsibility to make a case on my top scumread and right now you're it. You're trying to cast making a serious contribution to the thread as scummy? srs? | ||
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Aquanim
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On March 08 2013 06:49 layabout wrote: aqua why aren't you posting about the lynch? test isn't getting lynched so drop it He keeps replying to me so I keep replying to him. You have a point though. Gut says jcarlsoniv is town. WoS case is insufficient and I'm leaning town on him anyway. Should probably reassess this again but he's not today's lynch. The fact that Vivax's kill went through the one night that there was no scum KP is... disturbing but I still think he's town for now. As you say TS wagon isn't going anywhere. Which leaves... ##Vote: Glurio I'm not going to lie, this is a case of "vote the best lynch on the table" rather than "vote my scumread", seeing as how I did the latter and noone was interested. | ||
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Aquanim
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Your point? Surely he'd be more confident if this was a preplanned scum gambit? Also do you think this setup is balanced without any town KP? (I have no opinion on this question at present, I am genuinely interested in your opinion.) | ||
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Aquanim
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On March 08 2013 07:10 WaveofShadow wrote: It's funny, I noticed that yesterday and forgot about it completely trudging through the cesspool that is Mocsta's filter. (Fat lot of good that did me) Not worth changing my vote, though it does seem as though Glurio is going down. Not worth changing your vote? We still don't have a majority yet. Unless you think a no-lynch is better than a Glurio lynch (hint: you don't) change your vote now. | ||
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Aquanim
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On March 08 2013 07:12 JungleJorge wrote: My point is when people are faking stuff they slip and sound fake. That's how I catch most people as scum. And regarding town kp yes. Mafia KP is very low this game. Town had two protection roles, plus two info roles so far. If any kp would be present for town I would say it would probably be hatter. On March 08 2013 07:19 JungleJorge wrote: Also I'm sandroba. And I think vivax is scum. I don't have time to consider your case now, but I will re-examine Vivax overnight. | ||
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Doesn't look like there are any crazy voteswitch shenanigans. | ||
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