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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On February 27 2013 12:26 thrawn2112 wrote:
I don't have a problem with dieno looking at kei/adam and deciding that adam is the scummier one. The problem is when he summarizes keir's play as lurky, safe, etc and doesn't seem to be the least bit suspicious.
Of course its a little suspicious, but we are still so early into it that I pretty much have that level of suspicion on everyone. Once you start doing big things to needlessly shake up an already unsure game, then you get put on a different level.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On February 27 2013 12:33 Acrofales wrote:
So far I get the impression that Dieno is not putting the same effort into figuring stuff out as in PU or CT, but there is both still time and I haven't fully analysed him yet.
You're impression is right. It's true that I haven't put the same effort into this game as my previous two, and unfortunately I'm probably not going to. For both of those games, I was unemployed and had every single minute at my leisure. Now, I have a pretty demanding job that easily takes 7-8 hours of my day, 5 days a week.
That being said, I'm still going to get on here as often as I can, I'm still going to be making my maps, and I'm still going to be mercilessly hunting down scum. I'm just not going to be sitting at my laptop f5'ing every two minutes like I used to =P
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On February 27 2013 12:20 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 12:16 Dienosore wrote:
@Adam: If you really were under zero pressure and not in danger of a lynch, then why not let Thrawn and Keirathi duel it out? I'm 95% sure that's the way the duel was heading until you jumped in. Why put yourself in danger like this?
Asked and answered. Read my filter.
Thats also what you said about those earlier scum reads.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
Wait, hold on... Did I read this right?
On February 27 2013 15:38 Oatsmaster wrote:
I dont think that Keirathi is gonna flip scum, but on the slight chance that he is trying not to draw flack for his play, I am in favour of lynching him.
Quoting this for preservation purposes.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
I'm here, I'm here.
Firstly, let me say NICE MOVES ADAM! Fucking man of steel right there. Some Clint Eastwood/Zoro shit. I admit, I totally thought you were a scumball, but with keirs flip, you turn back to gravy in my books.
And why are you guys all jumping down my throat? Because I've been inactive? Is that really the only reason? I've been working, posting when I can. And then it was my day off today, so naturally I went out to the bar last night and got hammered.
Well here I am. I'm gonna start on a new map. I have today and the next off, so I'll pretty much be watching this thread like a hawk until it's time to go back to work. If you guys have any specific questions, shoot em at me.
As for me dueling Syl, I would totally be OK with that. He has looked scummy to me for a while now.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
I'll make a bigger post later tonight explaining my reads.
What is his plan, Oats? Can you summarize?
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 06:33 Alderan wrote:
Reason being, he never actually said anything about Syl looking scummy. If he was scum he would want to go with the easiest lynch bait. If he was town he would duel the one he felt most strongly about. That doesn't seem to be the case.
Are you suggesting I pull an Adam and duel my top scum read?
I said I was okay dueling Syl because he feels scummy to me and most of the town has asked for it.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 07:55 Sylencia wrote:
my wanting to duel him has increased
This town obviously isn't big enough for both of us, Sylencia.
##Duel: Sylencia
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
I'll be checking on the thread every 30~ minutes or so until I fall asleep to answer questions and write my case on Sylencia.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
Case on Sylencia
Here we start with this awesome post:
On February 25 2013 07:05 Sylencia wrote:
Because of your piss poor attitude when things don't go exactly the way you want it to.
Anyways, I odn't see anything that's particularly out of the ordinary about the policy that Hapa is suggesting. I think even as a blue role it might be better to just put yourself out there and have a good defense. Reluctance makes you suspicious in town eyes, as well as suspicious on the mafia side.
Speaking of bad first posts, he openly suggests blues come forward at the start of the game. Then he says reluctance to reveal yourself should be met with suspicion. Why would a towny ever want to expose blues, especially so early? I can understand if it is later in the game and there are lots of zany roles to protect people with, but this set-up so far seems to be pretty straight forward and simple.
Here he promises reads then doesn't deliver
On February 26 2013 08:25 Sylencia wrote:
As for reads, this is going to sound like a broken record to you by now, but tonight. If that's not good enough for you, I am perfectly willing to put myself up for the duel.
Then there is his vote on Adam:
On February 26 2013 18:31 Sylencia wrote:
The sad thing is that I don't see Adam being scum, but just a detriment to town.
Regarding Keir, I feel like he's pretty much on the same area as I am, not much from him but the fact he's argued with Adam meant that he's been put up for a duel. I'm still null on Keir, but if this is the way Adam wants to play I don't think it's exactly going to help us out in the long run.
##Vote: Adam
Here he says Adam isn't scum, then he actually has the balls to vote to kill him anyway. He also manages to weakly align himself with Keir (who flipped scum, btw). But wait... what's this?:
On February 27 2013 14:07 Sylencia wrote:
You try to nail me last night for what you're doing at the moment, but worse because you're statement essentially says you're killing off what you believe to probably be 2 townies. If you believe Keir is town, you have no reason to try kill him. Even if he's bad town, he still gives us the numbers we need to stay further afloat vs scum.
Now it's not ok to kill a towny, even if he's bad? This whole post goes directly against his vote on adam. Why you so flip-floppy, Syl?
He finally makes some real reads once Adam is dead, maybe because he is being pressured for looking scummy. Whatever, standard play. What is interesting is this little blip:
On February 28 2013 23:56 Sylencia wrote:
Should probably clarify/add to that point about why I want to duel Corazon: ~70% of his scumhunting time has been dedicated to me with ~80% of his case being completely meta despite saying how inaccurate metareads are. 15% of it have valid scum traits within them and 5% contain specific points/errors in my reasoning and logic. I honestly don't even know if he's really read through much of what I've said and just complained about quantity, quantity and quantity (with a dash of quality thrown into one of his latest posts).
While it's still considered scumhunting, I don't see it to be very productive at all seeing as how he has had his tunnel vision glasses on since stopping with yam and Oats.
He admits to having scum traits? Why would a towny ever say something like that? And the whole message is pretty much, "I want to duel Corazon because he is tunneling me". Maybe I'm wrong about this, but shouldn't you want to duel because you think someone is scum, not because they hurt your feelings?
There are a few other smaller things that add up after a while, but I think I've got the main points up there.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
@hapa: Im gonna eat dinner, then I'll get back to you
@acro: Yeah
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
lol @ the circle lynch double jerk
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
I was suspicious ever since his first post asking blues to come out. He wasn't in my top scumreads until I saw how he kind of fumbled around after the first duel. Now after digging into his filter and actually writing down my case, I'm pretty convinced.
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K im actually leaving now to eat  Ill be back in an hour or so
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 11:14 thrawn2112 wrote:
I'm calling bullshit on dieno's stance on syl. Look the post dieno quoted to justify the duel:
blah blah blah
Here's where that quote came from:
blah blah blah
What.... that post from syl is actually pretty good imo. Dienosaur completely took that quote out of context in order to justify his duel. Syl is not saying he wants to duel deino, he'd rather lynch Cor.
Would you have preferred if I quoted this one instead?:
While I'm willing to go up for a duel because of my lurker status, my lack of critical scumhunting, and whatnot - I'll let Deino cast the duel. He can show he has the same commitment that I do to being on the block.
The whole premise of this duel is stupid, it's very obvious that dieno is more concerned about keeing up appearances rather than lynching his top scumread.
As I explained to Acro, Syl is currently my top scumread.
Dieno's read on syl comes from nowhere. He's just doing this because we told him to, not because he cares about lynching scum when means we should lynch him.
Maybe you didn't read my case. I'd hardly say that my read "comes from nowhere".
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
@hapa(/thrawn): I read thrawns post and addressed his points. Here ya go:
On March 01 2013 07:56 thrawn2112 wrote:
So it seems like Dieno's main motivating factor in originally wanting to duel adam was entirely because adam wanted to duel dieno. Dieno's scumread on adam consists of nothing, like he is only dueling to defend his namesake or some shit. This is odd because you should only be wanting to duel your strong scumreads and I don't get the feeling that Dieno had a strong scumread on adam. After adam backs down, Dieno does nothing about his read except to state that he's cooled off and want to focus on other things, but also that he's ready and willing to duel if adam wants to. So does dienosaur have a scumread on adam? Does it look like a scumread that is strong enough to be the basis of a duel?
My main motivation was the fact that he wanted to duel me. I was a little offended that he would jump at me so early in the game, so naturally I snapped back at him. Then some time passed and some stuff happened. Marv vouched for Adam, etc. I stayed suspicious up until the flip, and now I'm pretty sure Adam is not a scumdog. I just don't see mafia dueling each other day 1. Unless of course it was all a genius plan to do the unthinkable and get town cred... but probably not.
Keirathi has already shown that mafia will accept a challenge when directly called out, and I'm not convinced that dieno truly wished to duel adam in a townie way.... the way that a townie would want to duel somebody they have a strong scumread on. Keir and dieno are similar in this regard as they express a very diplomatic attitude towards dueling. They will accept a duel, but it looks more like they are accepting because of appearance reasons rather than scumhunting reasons. If I was called on to duel, I would only be willing to duel a select few people. This is because as town you are only willing to duel your strong scumreads. Deino didn't express a "i think he's scum and i'm willing to own up to my read" attitude, he had a "if he wants to duel me, i'll duel him" attitude. That is not a townie-motivated approach to dueling.
It was super early in the game and I wasn't entirely sure about Adam, hence why I didn't actually duel him. However, I did want to send the message that I'm not going to be cowed by anyone trying to be a bully, and I think it worked pretty well.
Here are your main points about keir, taken from that bottom paragraph:
"Other than a bit of back and forth banter mostly discussing dueling policy, he has kept a relatively low profile"
"The only real aggression shown has been directed towards a scummy looking Thrawn"
"Overall, I'd say he has been playing it overly safe, if anything."
Those things are not suspicious? wtf
No, I don't think they are. To me, he just seemed like a busy and slightly uninterested towny.
that dienosore is hella scummy for not being suspicious of obviously scummy keir. keir's actual alignment probably doesn't even factor into it. town dienosore should not be looking at someone who hardcore lurked and only introduced 1 unique point to the thread and seeing them as not scummy.
The theme of those posts is that Dienosore isn't suspicious of a obviously suspicious lurker. This is a scumtell. I scumslipped exactly like this in lviii by not being suspicious of a guy who dropped off in activity. I have no issue with the fact that he chose adam as his scumread. The problem is when he fails to understand the idea that keir's lurking is suspicious. He eve labels keir's play as "overly safe, kept a relatively low profile, etc." Yet he is not suspicious of keir at all for those things!
It wasn't obvious to me at all. Up until Keir flipped, I never really felt strongly that he was mafia. Maybe some of you other guys have more experience with Keir to have been able to make a meta read based on his lazy play, but I didn't. Lesson learned, though.
he throws this at Oats:
blah blah blah
Not only does this seem ridiculously forced, dieno hasn't done anything with it. His only mention of or interaction with Oats was asking oats to clarify something somebody else said.
I wanted to quote that because he basically says he is in favor of lynching someone he didn't think was scum. Smells super fishy to me and I'm surprised you guys just basically brushed it under the rug.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 13:00 thrawn2112 wrote:
dienosore, one question:
Give me the most basic statement you can summarizing syl's play, and why you think he's scum. Keep it as short and as to the point as possible.
Idleness and sketchy plays the entire game slowly build up to scumball status.
On March 01 2013 14:20 Hapahauli wrote:
Also DIeno, I need some of your other reads. What's your current view on Oats?
Up until the first duel, I was pretty suspect. Since then, he hasn't really done anything noteworthy, other than pop in from time to time to keeper lurker status off. He seems normal, but every now and then he says something out of line that makes me do a double take. I'm keeping my eye on him for sure, but would I call him a top scum read? Not with much conviction, at least until there is more evidence or he does something blatantly stupid.
Map D1:
+ Show Spoiler +http://i48.tinypic.com/vyl9px.jpg
Nothing really interesting here that I didn't already pick up on from reading the thread. Very few town reads and lots of poop being thrown around.
- Marv and Snarf have some sort of connection.
- Adam, who is usually lurker supreme, has shown lots of action this game.
- A couple lurkers: Alderan, Zarepath
- A few unburrowed lurkers: Snarf, Keirathi, Thrawn, Sylencia
- Corazon, Marv, and Yamato are at the center of things, with mixed lines from everyone.
- Both Adam and Yamato have cleared Corazon as Towny after much argument.
Map D2:
+ Show Spoiler +http://snaps.htmlchat.net/?img=13030101290739274302z0og
(shitty camera, sry. If you cant read it, just ask and ill tell you what it says)
- Yamato who was super active d1 has shown little activity d2. Same goes for Corazon.
- On the flip side, there has been a big increase of activity from Acro.
- Thrawn showed up briefly to drop a few names, then slinked back to the shadows. Zare did something similar.
- Snarfs has been totally mia
Probably the most interesting thing about the map today is how different it is from d1. Because of this, cross referencing from d1 hasn't yielded many extra insights. Other than myself, syl, and to some extent, Corazon, no one else really seems to be attracting any overwhelming heat.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
I don't want to back down and call you a towny because you aren't playing like a towny, not because I'm scared of a 180.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 18:26 Oatsmaster wrote:
Ok Dienosore, what do you see that is out of line every so often from me?
Well, to start off with, you attacked marv, who I was pretty sure to be town, for little reason at the beginning of the game. Called him scummy and suspicous. This immediately raised my eyebrows.
"I get a different feeling in this game than LIX.
He is not really stepping up here, even in LIX he didnt run for mayor until half of the first cycle was gone.
So therefore, I dont really think marv is helping town so far. So therefore he is scummy. "
"In this statement, I meant that his policy post is not alignment indicative.
I still think he is scummy, but that post isnt a reason why."
You stopped pushing against marv once you failed to gain any sheep
Next, you try to distract/mislead town with some conspiracy theories that had nothing to do with what was being talked about at the time:
Does this look set-up to anyone else?
Or am I just paranoid.
No mention of Hapa in the last 2 pages by these gentlemen, Marv sets up a question in order to give a scum read on Hapa that is substantiated by another veteran in a way that is totally unsuspicious and it looks real good.
Interesting.
You constantly are asking other people for their reads, yet offering nothing back other than occasionally slinging splashes of mud.
Its called keeping them to yourself :D
who is scum Iamp?
Anyway stop discussing Marv, its getting nowhere.
Acro do you have any reads?
This is the only thing you saw Zarepath?
Really?
Do you have any scumreads?
reads keirathi?
etc.
Then you have this that looks like you are trying to make an excuse to duel someone and be able to get away with murder
My plan is that if no lynch is gonna happen, I will duel my top scumread.
Not good because generally my reads are not very good. Maybe this game its different? I dont know.
yes I just discredited myself.
But no lynch is definitely not happening.
After fumbling around for a bit and making general conversation, you lay this gem on us where you explicitly say you are in favor to kill a towny:
I dont think that Keirathi is gonna flip scum, but on the slight chance that he is trying not to draw flack for his play, I am in favour of lynching him.
More poking and prodding to keep up the appearance that you are actually doing something. A string of questions followed by very few original insites:
Huh,
Who is scum Acro?
What do you mean we have bigger fish to fry?
lol Syl what do you think about that?
You did a similar thing as I recall.
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?
etc.
Like I said, not the strongest case, but there definitely is enough material here to warrant suspicion.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
It was an easy meta read based off two of his back to back earliest posts + Show Spoiler +On February 25 2013 06:20 marvellosity wrote:
you're being rather egotistical.
This game isn't about one player proving one other player is mafia, there are 15 of us. It's a collective decision. It makes far more sense to have the 2 scummiest people dueling it out, so town can choose. It goes back to my anecdote from Fruity earlier. Someone, or a bunch of people, can think someone is mafia, but it's possible that in fact the guy is not mafia, and may help prove so with his defence, or with his own cases and play.
If you have the two scummiest in the lynch, then this leaves room for error and play. It's much more unlikely that the two scummiest will both absolve themselves, rather than just one. and this one On February 25 2013 06:46 marvellosity wrote:
It's not insanely difficult to enforce. It should be not too hard to find at least the group of people we want to lynch into, and then give a deadline/ultimatum for 2 of them to duel, or if there's 1 clear frontrunner, give a couple of people the choice of whether they want to duel with the frontrunner.
Actually the information you'll get from how people deal with this while under suspicion is probably far greater than any information you'll get from just having one clear townie dueling with someone suspicious. Whether ppl duel like they're asked, or go afk, how the suspects deal with the whole dueling situation - there's a whole mine of good shit there.
Further, I overwhelmingly back my judgement on who mafia are and are not over yours, yamato, so the last thing I need is you running off playing the hero.
Couldn't be more blatant to me. Plus the guy basically just outlined the gameplan for us, handing us the keys to an easy towny victory. From then on, trust was born. Kept waiting for him to slip up, but he never did, so I had no real reason to distrust him.
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EPT
