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11589 Posts
On February 07 2013 05:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm not a fan of asking people to replace out due to skill level, but I don't think it's indicative of Mocsta's alignment. Taken with everything else, I think Mocsta is town.
You know yamato for someone who's so against talking about townreads, you seem to be keen on asking people for theirs in the form of seeking arguments against your case. Are you aware of that?
I'm just trying to understand how people view his alignment, to be honest, and to see their reasons for defending him.
I really think he has a really good chance of being lynched, and I want information from people about him now rather than later when everyone realizes he's dead.
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Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then.
As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum.
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On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote:
Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then.
As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum.
Why don't you look at me closely and ask yourself if I'm trying to find scum. For me being your opening vote, I'm growing a little impatient with you pussy-footing around a case.
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On February 07 2013 05:45 yamato77 wrote:
The Man of the Hour!
How nice of you to appear!
What are YOUR thoughts on Yamato/Sloosh? You conveniently forgot to mention us in that post there.
I was rereading your dialogue with Sloosh, and the other post was already big enough.
I don't like how you accused him of making an association case (which he was clearly not), and how you tried to dodge his questions. you not wanting to give town reads is not really alignment indicative. You're case on Mocsta is rather weak, the tone of his posts vs Oats is completely different than what you posted from his scum game. Your reaction to sloosh's questions feel over the top. You seem to bark at him for no good reason instead of just trying to answer his questions. It feels partially like someone who just got caught in the act and tries to hide it. Specially the following two posts stick out:
On February 07 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
I said I agree with the general scumminess of phagga, in that he has some of the things I think mafia might do in his play so far.
What I didn't tell you is why I doubt those, and I'm not going to. You've got to do better than equate phagga to Mocsta to prove he's scum.
You're making an association case here, which is incredibly scummy this early in day 1.
and
On February 07 2013 03:45 yamato77 wrote:
Let's talk about why YOU think Phagga is mafia, Sloosh. You've said you think I should because of similarity to Mocsta, but aside from your first post you've done little to justify the read in the way of meaningful analysis from a personal perspective.
Afterwards everything else is just you attacking him until prplhz points out to you that it might be beneficial for you to actually answer slooshs question.
The way you explained why you thought I was town actually showed that you have reasons to believe so, and it's not because you'd actually know my alignment, which seems townish. Still, due to your reaction I slightly lean scum on you.
Regarding Sloosh: Nothing I have read so far indicates that he would be scum.
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God could you waffle any harder phagga?
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I missed the last line, which invalidates my statement. As you were phagga.
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Got a minute to post on break.
Yamato, why does Mocsta have a good chance of being lynched? I didn't come to the same conclusion.
Phagga, in those posts you were being unecessarily defensive, at least the tone seemed to be a harsh backlash. I understand why you made the response to Mocsta, my point was that you come off as like "no way im anti-town at all how could you think that!" its not a point we can really debate.
Ill read your post on yamato after work.
i want to hear from Djo, because if he keeps up the random lynch shenannies I'm going to be a sad panda.
Brb later, also VE waffles are delicious.
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Why is VE being mean to me?
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Why aren't you doing shit? You can't be scared of NKs, it's like you don't give a fuck. And in my experience a Palmar that doesn't give a fuck is a scum Palmar...and I hate scum. I FUCKING HATE SCUM PALMAR
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11589 Posts
I could get behind a Palmar lynch depending on his involvement with the game.
I think Mocsta could be lynched because Oats and JX share votes with me on him and Djo shows interest in the lynch. That's 4 people already.
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All right, so here are my thoughts:
1) On VE:
My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that.
But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE.
2) In response to Mr. Cheesecake:
On February 07 2013 04:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:==SNIP== SnarfsBeen playing super neutral so far and non confrontational. Example: Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 14:38 Snarfs wrote:
I could point out that it looks like one or both of you are purposefully being stubborn to try to draw reactions out of scum, possibly some sort of trap, but I don't know either of you well enough to give you that much credit. If you CAN do something, then you do it. This post serves no purpose other than to illustrate that either Oats or Mocsta could be stubborn for "possibly" some sort of trap, but then says he doesn't have enough information.
I was just saying what was on my mind. I was hoping by adding the "but" part of things someone else who knew these players would chime in. There are a lot of new faces here for me, and I apologize for not making it more clear that I was looking for some input from someone else. Either way, the point I was getting across was that it was not scummy that they were arguing like that.
Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 16:22 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 15:33 Mocsta wrote:On February 06 2013 15:26 VisceraEyes wrote:
Mocsta I'm intrigued by your posts regarding the nomination phase. However I'm going to suggest/request that you save it for AFTER the dawn phase of D2 so that scum aren't given instructions on how you're going to view nominees they put up. It's going to be clear enough after D2 because we're going to have to lynch into their choices - but if we can go all of D1 without speculating on who and why scum will send up D2 I think that's going to be a net gain for town. I disagree. On February 06 2013 12:04 Mocsta wrote:
The choices scum have for nomination will be based on the status quo of the ODD days; so it is paramount to consider ODD day play for EVEN day nomination. Having said that, I am going to hold off further strategy talk due to: fuck all people online. Need some others to contribute. @SnarfWhat do you make of VE wanting to bury all nomination mechanic talk till the nominations are released? I think it's a null tell. Town would do it if they wanted to shift the focus off of WIFOM. Scum would do it if they thought it was in town's best interests to be talking about the setup. I've personally never cared for too much setup speculation as most of my scum hunting success has come from observing what they actually do, not guessing at what they should be doing. Another null tell.
I was just answering the question that was asked.
Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 14:34 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 14:27 Oatsmaster wrote:
Hey Snarfs,
Do you have any conclusions about the 'discussion' between me and Mocsta relating to our alignments/ Not really being swayed either way. Looks like standard day 1 banter. The only real stance he had on someone is VE, but the only justification is for his "disappearing act". Snarfs has had plenty of time to justify his vote, but all I see is "lol people were shouting in thread you weren't there must be scum". Apart from that, the only thing he's done is talk about WIFOM crap. Snarfs plz do something instead of trying to be all blendy and stuff, k? ==SNIP==
Please read my first point and if this comment still stands feel free to rephrase it or ask again.
3) On Mocsta:
It looks like most of the votes on Mocsta are based on meta (correct me if I'm wrong, please: Oats, yamato, JX). Now, from the case that yamato makes, my biggest issue is that the tone between NMM XXXV (the referenced scum game) and this game is quite different. In the referenced game, he is quite unabrasive. He is questioning people but he's not actually showing any emotion, as in this game.
Compare:
I appreciate the sense of energy you are giving back to this thread, and I certainly do not want to deter that; town needs this energy.
BUT.. you are almost sounding "paranoid" - I know this, because after my last game, many assumed I was "paranoid".
I think we both want the same thing, a town environment where people can voice their opinion and join together for the scum hunt.
When you say "it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast"; that alienates participants from wanting to contribute.
You are actually creating an environment scum can thrive in with that attitude - even though I doubt that is your intention.
I ask that you please think about the above.
vs.
Oats you have an uncanny ability to read a wall of text and focus on one word in that paragraph.
You sound like a whiny chick to me, who hears one word she doesnt like, and zones off to everything else.
I AM NOT SETUP SPECULATING. The fuckn setup is 9 town, 4 mafia.
I am saying we need to make scum work hard to become read as town,
I am saying good play Day1 is to emphasise quality posts, and avoid being a lurker
I am saying, bad play Day1, is going to make nominations for scum in Day2 much fuckn easier.
Quote 1 sounds all nice and blendy in. Quote 2 is.. not. This meta argument is not convincing enough to sway me to change my vote.
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OK caught up on the thread the 3 pages of discussion a few times to make sure my head was clear.
(1) Issues with people overnight
- JieXian Throws in a vote, based on pre-game/early game banter/trolling. Thats his sole post. Im letting this one slip under the radar.
- Djodref The RNG tirade is over. If you want to vote for Oats, make a case and with due supporting evidence. Your actions over Day1 so far read to me as a guy trying to push his agenda by "fallacy: bandwagoning' hoping someone is zealous enough to blindly follow.
- Yamato77 Very wishy-washy case; and wishy-washy stances. I will dissect his case in my following post.
(2) Issue with Mocsta Meta
Firstly, in regards to Newbie XXXV (my only completed game as scum); this is my second post in the QT.
Hi Darthpunk. Its a bit hard to come up with any gameplans yet, barely anyone is contributing (here or in thread). As mentioned earlier, I would like to infiltrate town and be the scum mastermind  I have had 2 games in a row where town kept saying I was that, but never had the confidence to vote for me; so i think this is a good play.
i.e. I was simulating my town meta. Your calling me out for pushing town atmosphere; is something I am known for doing as town (aside from being tunneled).
Therefore, those that played with me in Newbie 33/34 know pushing for a solidified town atmosphere is part of my game. I dont think that makes me pro-town, its just a trait of my character.
Me and Oats butted heads in Newbie 35 not because I was scum; but because we have different avenues of pursuit. He is a loner by trait, I like to work in teams by trait.
What made us kept butt heads together is because he is stubborn, and I was scum trying to flame.
As evidenced again from the scum QT
Hey DP/Guys..
whcih do you think is the better approach for dealing with Oats... set him up as the easy mislynch; his rational is just way too confirmation biased (I think theres a high chance he will escape the lynch because too many lurkers).. OR.. call him out as a bad townie, identify the mistakse in his play to hoepfully turn my scum read into a town read... I may get good town cred frmo this play as well... as town thats probably what I would do... even though he is a easy mislynch, his conviction seems genuine of a townie.
Guess what I have been pointing out to Oats: (in my opinion) flaws in his logic/play - its pretty clear from above thats my town agenda.
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Off to dissect Yamato case
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I think Snarfs might well be scum. So here's a little push in his direction, care of the guy who isn't pushing anyone.
First of all, something I noticed last night.
On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote:Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyesAs far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then.
Here we see Snarfs' first vote on me. He's convinced of my alignment based on the fact that I left the thread "when two other players start shitting up the thread". But...why? Why is that indicative of me being scum? The only way that makes sense is if he is assuming that Oats and Mocsta are both town...and this is a conclusion he couldn't have already come to at this point in the game.
This alone isn't really enough for me to call him scum, but then we see how he pushes me after this:
On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote:
Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then.
As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum.
On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote:
All right, so here are my thoughts:
1) On VE:
My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that.
But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE.
**snip**
Anything new in there? Just a weak-ass meta read based on 24 hours of D1. But he asked for others' opinions TWICE in those two posts. We have players who haven't said fuck all. He's saying we can't lynch Palmar today...why? Why the fuck not? He's not doing shit. But he wants to lynch me? Based on what? A weak ass meta read and an absence I've explained?
It's cognitive dissonance. Why would he be against lynching Palmar D1 and not against lynching VE D1 for the same reason? I mean, okay if he thinks Palmar is better for town than me assuming we're both town, that's one thing...but he doesn't say as much. He simply shuts down the Palmar lynch for no reason...when no one is even voting for Palmar but me.
Now I'm at a crossroads. I want to kill Palmar with the holy fire of righeousness. But I also want Snarfs to hang. I want others' opinions of this, because at this point I could go either way. Kill the scummy lurker who doesn't give a shit, or kill the scummy active participant? Right now I'm leaning lynching Palmar, but if there's more support for a Snarfs lynch I'm all over that shit.
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Howdy all
The person that stuck out the post for me was Djo. I'm surprised more people haven't commented on him.
He starts out with his post. He seemingly "randomly" picks Oats out for a RNG lynch. But he uses Oats post number and uses a number that will give him Oats as his target. Its not random so why does he call it random.
On February 06 2013 20:11 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 20:01 Oatsmaster wrote:The reason why we dont use random lynching is cause no useful discussion happens. As it stands, less then half the players have posted so far. Palmer. Hi. Is not acceptable for day 1. Please elaborate. This post was the 1131th post from Oast. I propose to use this number as the number to get our lynch candidate for today ! I'm going to give numbers from 0 to 11 to the players after me in the filter list and calculate 1131 modulo 12 which gives 3. This random lynch on Oastmaster has one chance over three to hit scum which is better than the average scum lynch on d1. So I propose a random lynch on Oast. I'm pretty sure I'm going to generate discussion. ## Vote Oats
He proposes using the random lynch to create discussion. But then uses it as an excuse to stop conversation and discussion and not give his thoughts on Mocsta.
On February 06 2013 20:46 Djodref wrote:
And to answer your question, I did not say that you did exactly what you did in your last scum game. But while reading, I also thought about this game before Oats brought it up in the thread.
So, yeah, I'm suspicious of you but not enough to drop my random lynch on Oats ^^
When Oats ask's him what his thoughts are on lynching him. Djo again dodges the question further showing that he never intended to try to participate in the conversation and discussion that his RNG lynch was supposed to create. He instead sidesteps the question because he wants other players to comment first. Citing Palmar as well trying to get solid town vet behind it.
On February 06 2013 21:12 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 20:53 Oatsmaster wrote:
Djo,
You said the random lynch was to choose the target right? And to start discussion around the target right?
So what do you think about lynching me? I'd like to answer this question after I get the input from other players if you don't mind. I also would like Palmar to weight in on the random lynch thing ^^ How sure are you that Mocsta is scum by the way ? What is the most definite case you can bring against him ?
Every since his RNG lynch he has been pushing Oats and not really contributing hiding behind his lynch to get away with saying anything of significance.
Town Djo can write a damn good case. I think we have scum Djo here hiding behind a RNG to not contribute. Also note his complete disappearing act after contributing nothing.
##Vote Djodref
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hmm just back from a meeting and saw your post VE.
What you wrote was interesting,
I dont feel the same way you do about the first post + vote. At the time I interpreted it as a pressure vote, standard Day1 banter. Having said that, it left me null: breaking up fights is not alignment indicative.
As for the final post you quoted; im at a cross roads too. I dont like he defended Palmar without reason, it was something I noted (internally) before too. But I dont know you enough to know if the meta argument is valid, aside from that, I dont see much from him to support a vote that could carry to a lynch.
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Im not supporting a Snarfs lynch with the current post interactions.
Yes, I need to see more from Snarfs,
Yes, he has done a good job of standing in the middle,
and Yes when asked to present info, it was not as analytical as I would have hoped. He is actuallyl asking us to look into the filter, instead of present his "finds".
While the last point can be seem as scummy, im actually fixated on Yamato currently (I am about to start building a case / retort to his case on me) - its hard building a case at work
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On February 07 2013 09:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote: Sloosh
WTF
This better have a damn good explanation.
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Oh and plz peoples give me your thoughts on my Djo case.
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On February 07 2013 09:48 jaybrundage wrote:
Oh and plz peoples give me your thoughts on my Djo case.
Agreed. For me, its between him/yamato/jiexian.
On February 07 2013 09:19 Mocsta wrote:(1) Issues with people overnight- Djodref The RNG tirade is over. If you want to vote for Oats, make a case and with due supporting evidence. Your actions over Day1 so far read to me as a guy trying to push his agenda by "fallacy: bandwagoning' hoping someone is zealous enough to blindly follow.
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EPT
