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If people think my voteswitch was scummy. Can anyone give me a better course of action that I could have taken with the information available and my playstyle, from a presumed town perspective?
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I assume you're going to say that I should have justified my vote then and there, and that not doing so is scummy?
Why is it scummy? What possible scum intention could I have? I am so sick of my intentions being misinterpreted just because they are not entirely standard. THIS GAME IS NOT SPOT THE DIFFERENCE. For something to be scummy, it must have a scummy intention. Going back to bed was not good for my agenda regardless of whether I am town or scum. I was tired and half asleep. A Town me would see that he could make one of his preferred lynches happen and be content. A Scum me would need to stay awake in order to guide the lynch. While conventional logic dictates that a scum doesn't care who gets lynched, this is wrong. A scum needs to make sure that scum is not lynched. A Town has the fallback of the possibility he was wrong when he does not get the lynch he wants [as demonstrated by this very game]. STOP HITTING ME BECAUSE I'M DIFFERENT OR LAZY, HIT ME BECAUSE MY ACTIONS SPEAK OF SCUMMY INTENT.
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[quote] [QUOTE]On January 18 2013 12:07 JacobStrangelove wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 15 2013 02:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
(3) - OmniEulogy is confirmed town. He has changed his meta from scummy to actual pro-town. This is a read from a more complex dialogue outside of the game, but put simply:
- he has played deliberately scummy in previous games in order to give himself room to work with when he actually rolls scum
- I warned him that while I have been avoiding him in game I had decided to tunnel him as I could no longer take the bullshit, along as communicating several reasons for why a better player would play to the best of their ability every game
- He improved his style when he did not need to. I was not in the game to tunnel him, and if he rolled scum he would have had three games worth of established scummy play to work with, all but guaranteeing him a scum victory if he rolled scum.
If he rolled scum he would be under zero pressure to change his style and we would be looking at a clusterfuck of WIFOM and OMGUS instead of the rational play he is demonstrating.
[/QUOTE]
While this turned out to be true I think this might have been a scum slip, even with all the evidence town are normally far more careful with reads. For example with this evidence I would say most likely town and would think of the possibility of having improved his play to appear more town not remaining scummy to appear more town. (although I haven't seen him play before I don't think?)
Also in general Spags meta is way off... he is the only other australian and while he has given reasons for being less active you would have thought he would have at least chimed it (it's almost 1pm Australian time)
So in other words his meta is off, he isn't posting much (which is a separate issue from meta while being connected) and he isn't following though on his non LAL policy. A LAL policy is really easy for scum to talk about because it requires no evidence beside from lack of content.
Also he posted this
[quote]
I want you there on day three because you are active, and if you are scum you will slip as a result. If you downgrade your activity I will shit on you for motivated lurking. It is clear that I want you to stop wasting time being a victim, and I am not the only person with these thoughts. You are not responsible for other people lurking, but you are responsible for hiding their posts with tirades of self-pitying crap.[/quote]
Is seems he has taken up the mantle of motivated lurking.... after being so bold and aggressive against them has he realised he can't keep up?
FOS# Spaghetticus[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]
A scum-slip? Fuckoff. With this evidence you would have been wrong. I have also had the pleasure of playing two games Omni, and I have a feel for his play and mind-set. I looked at his intentions behind this massive change and saw only town motive, with zero possibility of scum short of some sort of complex (and spontaneously appearing) code of conduct. I gave you the brief version, as that was all that was functionally needed. Again, I WAS FUCKING RIGHT. I know scum have information that town do not, but again I respond with an argument based on a now familiar paradigm:
If I say something it is ignored until I am proven correct, and then I must be scum for knowing.
I do have information that you do not. I talked to OmniEulogy and you didn't (though I believe the conversation is available in the obs QT for XXXIV). What possible SCUM MOTIVE could I have for protecting a townie? He would likely still be in the game if he hadn't DCed, and I would be getting zero credit. I could make a long term play and have Omni killed day four or so, which would gain me town cred, but by reducing the number of threats townies were thinking about I would be doing town a ginormous favour in finding a scummy spag and his scummy friends. This would not be a good play, particularly since any fire that would be going onto Omni would be going directly onto me for protecting him. Your analysis of his actions was okay, as you thought him probable town, but ultimately inferior due to the depth of your probing. Your proposition that he could start acting as town while being scum is simply an inferior play when he's spent three games setting up a scummy meta. You know it, I know it, and Omni would know it.
As for me being inactive... I'm sorry for that but it was unavoidable as previously stated. I have sleep issues that have affected previous games, I am busy with obligations to my family, and I am in the middle of sorting out the next semester of university. I can't make you believe me on these things, but I am still managing to get a fair bit done, and more than some other players. The action that takes place without me is... negligible.
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EBWOP: fucked the BBcode REALLY hard. Ignore the above post.
On January 18 2013 12:07 JacobStrangelove wrote: Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 02:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
(3) - OmniEulogy is confirmed town. He has changed his meta from scummy to actual pro-town. This is a read from a more complex dialogue outside of the game, but put simply:
- he has played deliberately scummy in previous games in order to give himself room to work with when he actually rolls scum
- I warned him that while I have been avoiding him in game I had decided to tunnel him as I could no longer take the bullshit, along as communicating several reasons for why a better player would play to the best of their ability every game
- He improved his style when he did not need to. I was not in the game to tunnel him, and if he rolled scum he would have had three games worth of established scummy play to work with, all but guaranteeing him a scum victory if he rolled scum.
If he rolled scum he would be under zero pressure to change his style and we would be looking at a clusterfuck of WIFOM and OMGUS instead of the rational play he is demonstrating.
While this turned out to be true I think this might have been a scum slip, even with all the evidence town are normally far more careful with reads. For example with this evidence I would say most likely town and would think of the possibility of having improved his play to appear more town not remaining scummy to appear more town. (although I haven't seen him play before I don't think?) Also in general Spags meta is way off... he is the only other australian and while he has given reasons for being less active you would have thought he would have at least chimed it (it's almost 1pm Australian time) So in other words his meta is off, he isn't posting much (which is a separate issue from meta while being connected) and he isn't following though on his non LAL policy. A LAL policy is really easy for scum to talk about because it requires no evidence beside from lack of content. Also he posted this Show nested quote +
I want you there on day three because you are active, and if you are scum you will slip as a result. If you downgrade your activity I will shit on you for motivated lurking. It is clear that I want you to stop wasting time being a victim, and I am not the only person with these thoughts. You are not responsible for other people lurking, but you are responsible for hiding their posts with tirades of self-pitying crap.
Is seems he has taken up the mantle of motivated lurking.... after being so bold and aggressive against them has he realised he can't keep up? FOS# Spaghetticus
A scum-slip? Fuckoff. With this evidence you would have been wrong. I have also had the pleasure of playing two games Omni, and I have a feel for his play and mind-set. I looked at his intentions behind this massive change and saw only town motive, with zero possibility of scum short of some sort of complex (and spontaneously appearing) code of conduct. I gave you the brief version, as that was all that was functionally needed. Again, I WAS FUCKING RIGHT. I know scum have information that town do not, but again I respond with an argument based on a now familiar paradigm:
If I say something it is ignored until I am proven correct, and then I must be scum for knowing.
I do have information that you do not. I talked to OmniEulogy and you didn't (though I believe the conversation is available in the obs QT for XXXIV). What possible SCUM MOTIVE could I have for protecting a townie? He would likely still be in the game if he hadn't DCed, and I would be getting zero credit. I could make a long term play and have Omni killed day four or so, which would gain me town cred, but by reducing the number of threats townies were thinking about I would be doing town a ginormous favour in finding a scummy spag and his scummy friends. This would not be a good play, particularly since any fire that would be going onto Omni would be going directly onto me for protecting him. Your analysis of his actions was okay, as you thought him probable town, but ultimately inferior due to the depth of your probing. Your proposition that he could start acting as town while being scum is simply an inferior play when he's spent three games setting up a scummy meta. You know it, I know it, and Omni would know it.
As for me being inactive... I'm sorry for that but it was unavoidable as previously stated. I have sleep issues that have affected previous games, I am busy with obligations to my family, and I am in the middle of sorting out the next semester of university. I can't make you believe me on these things, but I am still managing to get a fair bit done, and more than some other players. The action that takes place without me is... negligible.
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On January 19 2013 01:20 shz wrote:
Spag is indeed very interesting. He plays just strange. In the beginning it was okay because he just replaced the troll and had to settle in. His LAL thing was okay, but in the end worthless as we lynched the GF on d2 with him being the most active player.
But thats over now. And I still don't get the vote-switch.
@Spaghetticus:
You said you will wake up in time for the lynch and participate. You did. Or, you were awake at least. You came in, changed your vote and went off. Why did you not post your explanation before the flip? You are a self-proclaimed god in Mafia, so why the fuck do you do something so obviously bad?
Also, confirming my last 10% of being town is not a good enough reason to lynch someone. Not that I disagree that Trot should be looked upon.
I already posted a response to this, but I think your wording and the way you came across was really shitty. You are in the happy place of being confirmed town by one action, you are a valuable if not the most valuable member we have in that your questions come not as possible scum machinations, but genuine town concern. Everyone can answer you plainly knowing they are not being lead by malicious intent.
And yet... You are applying little critical thought to the game.
(1) - Voting without explanation hurts all agendas.
(2) - I can't remember calling myself a God, but I assume you misinterpreted some banter as I entered the thread? I do remember easing myself into the game by talking myself up a little, but this should be plain for all to see. Any expectation of actually godly play in a newbie is an uncritical one on your part.
(3) - My reasons for suspecting/voting Trotske are not only that he confirms you as 100% town, though I am someone who factors in such things into his initial estimate of a person. I believe JSL stated it should only be a tie-breaker, this is very conservative and IMHO dead wrong. Trotske has very little contribution, and what he does say is generally fairly weak. He is one of my two biggest reads (the other being JSL, though I'm starting to suspect Zare), and while my post did not explain everything, it was a summary post, not a case. I feel that a lot of the misinterpretations of my content are happening because a failure of people to look at the context (as well as delve into my possible intentions).
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I'm VT.
What I am doing is helping you not lynch town, which is more urgent to me. My reads are not comparable to the 100% chance of mislynching if I am lynched. People are completely warping context and motive for an easy lynch and I believe that this is the most pertinent information I can help correct.
That said, I will now develop some of my suspicions, as I have already attended to filing the more dangerous contours of the case against me.
I will now be looking at Trotske and possibly JSL. My read on Jacob is less solid and may or may not develop strongly when I trawl his filter.
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And honestly I don't really understand the reasoning behind wanting a rolecall, but w/e.
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- Mocsta would bus anyone day two. He was WIFOMing like a mad-man. He did it too much and you guys caught him because of it. His actions were calculated to cause confusion, why would he act in such a way that allows us to confirm town? He was and is a bold player, and there is not a croutons chance in hell that he didn't name/mention/act against one of his scum-buddies to create further intrigue.
- Trotske probably did not believe the lynch on Mocsta would happen (I certainly didn't). By the time it became a real possibility it was too late for him to back out without being called scummy, and he may as well rack up town cred for the lynch.
- it's not as if these were hard buses. A scum's role is not to act predictably, but to win the game. If they thought that neither target would go down (I know Mocsta left enough options open), then why shouldn't they remove themselves from the lynch is it was a reversible maneuver?
Honestly my head is getting fuzzy, and your argument is not making as much sense to me as it should. What is your fourth paragraph about? I don't see the double bus play at all, and I'm not even sure of the mislynch you refer to.
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My case on Trotske is not as impressive as I had hopes it would be. It can be summarised into three parts:
(1) - Trotske is not a noob: He isn't, he's played more games than me, and while I'm not sure why he would tell us that as town or scum (A requirement for being allowed in the game maybe?), and argument that relies on him being a noob is fallacious. A year away is a while, but it's no reason to not have posted any content by now.
(2) - Which leads into my next point: he seems to have almost made efforts to not contribute. I have offered more content despite starting two days later, sleeping 12 hours a day, and being pulled into family affairs I want no part of. He is neither leader of opinion nor a creative thinker, simply a follower of other's ideas. Somehow he has managed to fail to contribute, and this is not acceptable at this point in the game for someone that has any experience whatsoever.
(3) - This third point is more the negation of arguments used to defend him. Whatever Mocsta's plan was, it was damn erratic. People seem to be banking a lot on knowing Mocsta's intentions when they just don't seem that clear to me.
I am bone tired. I need sleep and I am no use continuing to write myself into the ground. I think I will be lynched tomorrow, and frustrating as it may be I have not the strength of character to stop it.
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Will:
(1) - Don't lynch Shz. He will likely die to NK, but if he does not you should lynch Trotske first and see where that leaves you.
(2) - Acid is also coming up as strong town. I may not currently have the mental agility at this point in time to understand WTF he is saying, but if you can understand it, it sounds like he's put in a lot of genuine effort into analysing the lynch. Such effort is not something that a scum would be required to do. It also wouldn't make sense for scum to do such an analysis and then post so sparingly. Such effort could better be used as a scum in acting as town and not furthering their cause. If Acid is lynched you better have a really damn convincing reason.
(3) - JSL. He hasn't done much. He's another "read" of mine, equal to Trotske in input, but without the deminoob excuse. He shows signs of insight, but seems to be wasting time defending himself when I am hogging all the votes, or pestering Zarepath.
(4) - Zarepath. He's active(ish) and scummy as hell. His lists are semi helpful, but they are probably his biggest contribution other than getting me mislynched with really fucking bad rhetoric. I don't blame JSL for attacking Zarepath, but I feel as though his attacks have been half-hearted and not at all real. I was actually leaving Zare alone believing that JSL was going to post a solid case, but this never eventualised, so in some way it has worked as a protection...
(5) - Zebezt. I can see the noob in this one... If you look not at all that closely you can even see when they started consulting guides/coaches and changed their game around to conform to town meta of aggressive tunneling. They don't seem to have developed the savvy required to hide their scummy behaviour, so I would go with a town read, or a "not a threat" read at worst.
(6) - Trotske. I've already made my thoughts clear on Trotske, I can't even collect enough data for a real case which should speak louder than any case I could make. I suggest looking to Acid when thinking of lynching this one. He seems to have some lynch logic that proves Trotske town that I don't really understand.
(7) - There is no seven. I'm going to bed. I'll look over you from the Obs QT,
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EPT
