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On January 06 2013 19:16 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 19:02 yamato77 wrote:
Xatalos what the fuck is that post?
How is Shiao voting for a lurker who eventually got replaced scummy? He wants him to be more active, and somehow that's scum motivated?
His stances are not weak. He's been putting pressure on me since he made the post, and he wants to do so to you. It's not like he's just saying shit to say it.
And then this gem
"I guess it's about time to finally cast a vote"
Or in other words:
"I'm going to put this riiiiight here. Hopefully town doesn't think I'm scummy for this!"
That shit is weak, bro. It's not about the vote itself, it's about the way he did it. What caused me to feel uneasy about it was this: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:13 KharadBanar wrote:
So for the sake of pulling more active people into this thread I'm going to do something Kohbee did in Newbie VI to spark some discussion:
##Vote: HiroPro
I have no clue whether he is actually scum or not (he was in Newbie VI) but at least it will get him to talk. This is a scum in one of my earlier games. It's a frighteningly similar situation. A scum makes a vote on a lurker, but is 0% convinced about the vote, and repeats that both before and after the vote to make it absolutely clear. Talk about overdoing it? And doesn't that completely destroy any meaning the pressure vote might have had? I'm just not seeing the town motivation for doing a weak fake pressure. His stances are strong? He's been extremely hesitant and vague so far, not committing to absolutely anything. That's in stark contrast to his town meta that I know of.
Shiao had good reason to pressure vote the lurker here. He didn't just slap his vote somewhere just to have it there.
No one this game has been super pushy with their reads or committed to them. It's beneficial to us as town that we don't make any bad decisions on lynches this game because of the mechanics of instant majority.
Nothing he's done is scummy. You've certainly tried to make it looks so, but it isn't, and it makes me think you're just looking for an excuse to vote someone.
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On January 07 2013 05:09 Xatalos wrote:
Alright. I've made my decision. I'm fine with lynching yamato77, especially if it comes down to me or him (which is a very real possibility at this point). I've outlined my reasons for having him as a lynch candidate earlier and my opinion hasn't significantly changed after that, unlike with MrZentor, DarthPunk or jaybrundage.
##Unvote ShiaoPi
##Vote yamato77
Mr. Cheesecake, I don't think it's bad to include counter-arguments within your case against someone. It should be a fair judgement after all, not a one-sided tunneling tool. Especially if you're not entirely convinced about your target being scum.
Where was your inclination to lynch me earlier? Now that it's the only thing you can do to save yourself you're all for seeing me hang? You were trying to get me to follow you on voting for Shiao last night, remember? Why would you do that if you have a scum read on me? It look like you're just fitting your reads in at your convenience.
I already attacked you for that scummy case post on Shiao, so convince me why I shouldn't just lynch you now.
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On January 07 2013 05:49 Hapahauli wrote:
I'm pretty interested in seeing a conversation between Yamato and Xatalos right now. Since you both want to kill each other, I want to hear your reasons for why you want each other lynched.
I really hate the way he voted for Shiao, the case was bad and wrong but then he goes
"I guess it's time to cast a vote"
Like wtf kind of scum thinking is that? He's just looking for a reason to vote people
Just like he's looking for a reason to vote me.
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I don't think you guys should lynch CC, he's looked townie this game IMO.
On January 05 2013 14:31 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Yo guys, cease the shitflinging kk? You both think each other are scum, that's cool and all. You guys can make condense cases later so we don't have to sift through this mess.
This argument could pretty much go on forever between you two. What say you guys to SP being super ultra mega neutral so far this game? Concerning or no?
This post I referenced before but it's a huge town tell in my eyes that he wanted to stop the fight between Hapa/DP that was consuming the thread. He saw two of his town reads going at each other and managed to get them to stop shitting the thread up and post logically. Scum could have egged it on, or not even posted.
On January 06 2013 09:09 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
@MrZ
Get off your loaf and do something this game besides reserve your hammer like some God on Mt. Olympus. I haven't seen one bit anything controversial from you besides a few trolly comments.
All I've seen is some defending of yourself via "Oh, scum don't want to hammer vote, therefore I'm auto-town yo. I can't be scum because scum don't want to do things like this."
Last game you voted for yourself which scum would "never want to do". But you didn't flaunt it around to assure everyone that you were town.
##Unvote
##Vote: Mr. Zentor
You were much more interesting last game. Start being interesting plx.
Here he puts pressure on a player he views as not contributing. He notices the same things I have about Zentor's play. This is something I agree with and something that makes me see him in a better light for doing.
You guys should rethink this.
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I'll be back later.
Don't lynch someone until I get back.
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It seems like other people are seeing what I saw in Xatalos with his case in Shiao and vote on CC.
The dude doesn't really care where he votes, he gives weak justifications and has continually changed his reads over the course of the game on a moment's notice to fit his agenda.
It's enough for me to see him hang.
##Vote: Xatalos
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I think I made it abundantly clear why I wanted to lynch Xatalos. Contrary to DP's idea of him not changing his play to suit town's opinion being a town tell, I found it frustrating and ultimately scummy. Perhaps I was overly emotional in my decision to hammer him but I was fairly convinced he was scum.
I voted after Zentor even though I have been suspicious of him because he wasn't the hammer vote like he said he would be. Everyone else seems to find him fitting his town meta so I thought he might actually have thought Xatalos was scum for the reasons I did. Apparently this as not the case because his reaction to the lynch was to downplay the fact that it was a mislynch.
Obviously I was correct in my read of Zentor not caring about who he lynches. I thought that because he wasn't the hammer that it meant he actually had a scum read on him but apparently he just wanted to see a lynch happen.
I'll be on for the next seven hours or so sporadically.
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That was one of my points against him. If he was willing to not hammer a lynch and people seemed to think he was town based on meta I didn't see why I should miss the opportunity to lynch one of my best scum reads this game.
Perhaps in hindsight it was an error in judgment . Given the content of his post I should have seen his true intentions instead of assuming he had the right ones just for agreeing with me.
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He posted his tree of lynches deal that seemed to contain some thought about the game that wasn't related to who he could be mislynched.
I do wish he'd bothered to take the time to explain his scum read but the fact of the matter is that I did. You guys know why I wanted Xatalos dead, it's in my filter. If your problem is with Zentor's vote, maybe you should look at Zentor and discern his intentions.
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As I said before the lynch I have a townish read on CC but his play since then has been pretty abysmal.
That being said I don't think I want to lynch him tomorrow. I think Zentor's plays is worth a long look.
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On January 08 2013 07:45 MrZentor wrote:
lol
Is your only response to my suspicion of you "lol"?
Let's say I vote you tomorrow with case attached, are you going to just lol that too?
Fucking useless.
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Hapa I'm interested in hearing more about your accusations against Shiao because I definitely do not share your opinion of him.
A lot of people have been inactive this game, what about his inactivity is special?
His OMGUS deal with Xatalos didn't seem that scummy to me. I defended him after all.
Substantiate the case, if you will.
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As for who I would lynch over Shiao, I would obviously answer Zentor for how he played around the lynch. Supposedly not giving a shit what town says is a town tell but I don't agree with that logic. He seriously gave no shits about who he was lynching. He didn't even bother offering a reason for his vote. "Too scummy to be scum" shouldn't be a defense. I should have seen it at the time but obviously hindsight is 20/20 so I shouldn't beat myself up for not realizing what he was doing.
My town read on Shaio comes from this post:
On January 06 2013 17:15 ShiaoPi wrote:
Okay finally got some time to give out some thoughts.
First off welcome Z-Boson, good to have a active replacement!
Moving on to some housekeeping:
DP's reactions since I was gone seem to me pretty townie, by extension Hapa seems town as well with the entire thoughtprocess behind tunneling being revealed. So I am retracting my scum-leaning read that I had on DP earlier.
I am interested currently in these people:
yamato
Xatalos
MrZ
yamato:
There are many things which would probably be me reiterating stuff that was mentioned (discrepancy in behaviour as hapa said). Not being really present, throwing votes around with little reasoning. But that can be explained by his lack of time due to RL business. could really use more analysis and reasoning from him.
Xatalos:
I said earlier that Xatalos is a lynchbait. That is because he is hesitating a lot, laying out a lot of his thoughts in the thread and therefore opening himself up for harsh critique if he changes his mind and posts it. His lack of any stance is alarming though. While it is somewhat just his playstyle (IIRC) I still dislike it a lot, I mean day 1 has been going for quite a long time now already, while we did not get more information through lynching there is still a lot of content to search through and find something.
MrZ:
He is useless, which is stupidly just his meta with the lightheartedness he has shown. I don't like useless people but cannot condemn him based on this.
Actually I started this post with wanting to lynch into Xata/yamato preferrably yamato but now that I am writing those reads feel just unsatisfying...There is nothing really much that distinguishes one option from the other. I am reluctant to lynch yamato since he seems legitimately busy, also relcutant to lynch Xata for just playing as he does (same goes for MrZ).
Somehow this day 1 has not been really productive >_>
Aside from his read on me, which I somewhat understand, this post agreed with me in terms of who I was suspicious of. It's not a perfect town tell that someone thinks like me but it is a good one because if he's reaching the same conclusions, then I have at least some understanding of his thought process and can reasonably expect him to have similar motivations.
On January 06 2013 19:11 ShiaoPi wrote:
@yamato:
While I like you doing more analysis, there is some stuff I do not agree with. Especially the first post you quoted with the guidelines on time. Hapa actually wanted a self-imposed deadline of 72h, which is something I did not agree to. So taking that quote from Zentor out of context makes it seem as it were all the time pushing for lynching somebody to end it the day. That is simply wrong. I can also sympathise with his sentiment that we really should start consolidating on someone by now. A much longer day 1 has negative effect on us imo.
You are right when you say that his play is not necessarily pro-town by now. But I can understand where he comes from to a certain degree, which explains why I said earlier that I am torn on all my candidates for today's lynch.
@Xatalos:
Nice that you have popped in, but not only are you dead wrong on me but your case is crap. I expected more than cherrypicking my filter for bits you can build something on.
I cannot even fathom how you critisize me for putting a vote on Rise as pressure when he had done jackshit at that moment.
The next two quotes are an answer to a question I was asked to. I was asked who the other options of mine were, I responded. Don't even see what is wrong with them as if you have studied my filter it is pretty clear why I listed each of them.
Now towards my stances being neutral and weak is stupid as shit. I posted my thoughts on the players I found suspicious at the moment and pressured them when they were around see the entire dialogue between me and yamato just above.
As icing on the cake you take a game from almost half a year back (which was also one of my newbie games) as a "meta-argument". That is a nice example of false usage of meta-arguments. If you want to study my meta at least take the most recent game in which I was town (which is LVII if I recall correctly) and compare it to this game...
This is just terribly bad and feels forced.
##vote: Xatalos
This post also has a similar reaction to Xatalos' case that I had. Again, he has the same thoughts as me about the guys which leads me see him more town like. He also expresses doubt in his reads, which suggests an open mindset to new information that I think scum sometimes lack.
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On January 08 2013 08:28 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Yamato
You think scum wouldn't have a similar reaction to you? I hate to be harsh, but it's not like you push town agendas in your town-games very frequently.
Also, Shaio making a list post is not a town tell.
So I should think Shaio is scum for thinking the same things as me, a town player?
That doesn't make sense to me.
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EBWOP
Also how do I look townie and push scum objectives at the same time, Hapa? Earlier you had a meta read on me because I "look townie" in YANMM but you seem to think I push scum objectives? I'm not sure I follow that line of reasoning either.
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On January 08 2013 08:57 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 08:54 yamato77 wrote:On January 08 2013 08:28 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Yamato
You think scum wouldn't have a similar reaction to you? I hate to be harsh, but it's not like you push town agendas in your town-games very frequently.
Also, Shaio making a list post is not a town tell. So I should think Shaio is scum for thinking the same things as me, a town player? That doesn't make sense to me. What prevents a scum from thinking the same way as you (if you're town)? The similarities in your thought processes have no relevance to his alignment, since we don't know if the players he's giving his thoughts on are scum or town. What if one of your town reads is scum, or if one of your scum reads is town? A mafia would be happy to think they way you are thinking.
I suppose that makes sense but most people who think like me are town in my experience.
I'll reconsider my read.
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On January 08 2013 09:43 DarthPunk wrote:
@ Yamato. You have a lot of experience playing with CC don't you? how would you say his play this game correlates to his previous games with you?
@ ZB have you dramatically altered your playstyle since the last time we played together? This is certainly not the town meta I remember from you.
I've only played with town CC so I haven't seen his scum meta but this game doesn't look like the games I played with him. For one, he hasn't outright called me scum yet, he's actually defended me. Two, he doesn't seem active or invested like he usually does. Like I've said before, I have had a town read on him but it isn't strong, and it's quickly degrading.
As for my top scum read, I still don't like Zentor for his play day 1 and he hasn't done anything to change that. I'm going to put some time into reading filters more carefully and see if I can see things more clearly.
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On January 08 2013 09:55 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 09:53 yamato77 wrote:On January 08 2013 09:43 DarthPunk wrote:
@ Yamato. You have a lot of experience playing with CC don't you? how would you say his play this game correlates to his previous games with you?
@ ZB have you dramatically altered your playstyle since the last time we played together? This is certainly not the town meta I remember from you. I've only played with town CC so I haven't seen his scum meta but this game doesn't look like the games I played with him. For one, he hasn't outright called me scum yet, he's actually defended me. Two, he doesn't seem active or invested like he usually does. Like I've said before, I have had a town read on him but it isn't strong, and it's quickly degrading. As for my top scum read, I still don't like Zentor for his play day 1 and he hasn't done anything to change that. I'm going to put some time into reading filters more carefully and see if I can see things more clearly. I've been calling you out for shit, apparently you haven't noticed? I wanted to LYNCH you day 1. I defended you a tad d1 and that's it.
You've been saying the same things Hapa was. I don't see any reason to attach those questions to your thought process.
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On January 08 2013 10:03 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 09:57 yamato77 wrote:On January 08 2013 09:55 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On January 08 2013 09:53 yamato77 wrote:On January 08 2013 09:43 DarthPunk wrote:
@ Yamato. You have a lot of experience playing with CC don't you? how would you say his play this game correlates to his previous games with you?
@ ZB have you dramatically altered your playstyle since the last time we played together? This is certainly not the town meta I remember from you. I've only played with town CC so I haven't seen his scum meta but this game doesn't look like the games I played with him. For one, he hasn't outright called me scum yet, he's actually defended me. Two, he doesn't seem active or invested like he usually does. Like I've said before, I have had a town read on him but it isn't strong, and it's quickly degrading. As for my top scum read, I still don't like Zentor for his play day 1 and he hasn't done anything to change that. I'm going to put some time into reading filters more carefully and see if I can see things more clearly. I've been calling you out for shit, apparently you haven't noticed? I wanted to LYNCH you day 1. I defended you a tad d1 and that's it. You've been saying the same things Hapa was. I don't see any reason to attach those questions to your thought process. Wait what? I still never defended you besides me saying "Yamato is being Yamato". Also, how can you say I don't seem as active? I'm as active if not more active than in my previous games with you with the exception of the first half of D1. You are straight up lying.
A lot of your posting this game is what I would call "posting to post". You say nothing meaningful to the thread. You announce you're here, or that you're working, or make some snarky comment.
This is different from your town games where you seem actively engaged in figuring out the game.
And now this. You haven't seen any reason to respond to me before, but now that I give the slightest inkling I think you might be scum, you start attacking me. OMGUS much?
CC, why so scummy?
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On January 08 2013 10:11 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 10:08 yamato77 wrote:On January 08 2013 10:03 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On January 08 2013 09:57 yamato77 wrote:On January 08 2013 09:55 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On January 08 2013 09:53 yamato77 wrote:On January 08 2013 09:43 DarthPunk wrote:
@ Yamato. You have a lot of experience playing with CC don't you? how would you say his play this game correlates to his previous games with you?
@ ZB have you dramatically altered your playstyle since the last time we played together? This is certainly not the town meta I remember from you. I've only played with town CC so I haven't seen his scum meta but this game doesn't look like the games I played with him. For one, he hasn't outright called me scum yet, he's actually defended me. Two, he doesn't seem active or invested like he usually does. Like I've said before, I have had a town read on him but it isn't strong, and it's quickly degrading. As for my top scum read, I still don't like Zentor for his play day 1 and he hasn't done anything to change that. I'm going to put some time into reading filters more carefully and see if I can see things more clearly. I've been calling you out for shit, apparently you haven't noticed? I wanted to LYNCH you day 1. I defended you a tad d1 and that's it. You've been saying the same things Hapa was. I don't see any reason to attach those questions to your thought process. Wait what? I still never defended you besides me saying "Yamato is being Yamato". Also, how can you say I don't seem as active? I'm as active if not more active than in my previous games with you with the exception of the first half of D1. You are straight up lying. A lot of your posting this game is what I would call "posting to post". You say nothing meaningful to the thread. You announce you're here, or that you're working, or make some snarky comment. This is different from your town games where you seem actively engaged in figuring out the game. And now this. You haven't seen any reason to respond to me before, but now that I give the slightest inkling I think you might be scum, you start attacking me. OMGUS much? CC, why so scummy? LOL! I've been attacking you but you haven't responded in the slightest. Plus, that post of yours where you voted me I just went "lol", I'm not attacking you because you think I'm scum. Why don't you actually do something in this game Yamato. Everyone keeps saying that I'm "posting for posting" or blah blah blah. But you of all people should know I do that as town. A LOT. C'mon Yamato let's go. Tunnel me.
This is the second time you've tried to bait me into tunneling you. What is with you? It's like you want town to think you're scummy or something. As town generally you want to PROVE you're town, you know. That way you're not just wasting time.
Instead you seem to want town to waste time being suspicious of you. Why?
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EPT
