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On January 04 2013 17:01 yamato77 wrote:
Well like I said, the first post in Parallel was from Mementoss and I immediately did not like it. It was really setup focused and said a lot of nothing. He turned out to be scum. My opinion on the matter overall is that focus on the setup is a scummy trait.
Thaaaaank you. So in light of this, what do you make of Rise's stuff then? He's been pretty openly trying to play the setup-speculation game early on, and I'm surprised you haven't commented on it at all given your stance here.
Your post this game had a similar feel to me, and as others have said contrived posts are not something to be liked. However, I knew your experience in IRC and thought I made a meaningful connection to why you made the post. My conclusion was not that you were scummy, it is that you're townie.
You say it in a long winded way, but basically you want town to act rationally because you want to lynch people who hammer a townie with little explanation, because that is a scummy play. Again, I draw conclusions to IRC where people hammered townies all the time and the hammerer was lynched really often, but they were often town as well. You want to eliminate this problem, to separate the townies lynching an honest scum read from the scum lynching a townie.
Cool. So do you agree/disagree with my stance on things?
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On January 04 2013 17:10 yamato77 wrote:I agree, the hammer vote should definitely be looked at. With that in mind, I'm not sure why CC says this: Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 11:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On January 04 2013 11:42 jaybrundage wrote:On January 04 2013 11:01 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Jay
Any other thoughts on what Rise and I have discussed over the first pages of the thread? Day length, hammer votes, or anything really. We should lynch someone when we feel confident they are mafia. We should always be aware of the hammer vote. People should be responsible for there hammer vote. We shouldn't rush a lynch cause we lost discussions to read people with. Policy Lynches rarely work so we should refrain from doing them. Pretty straight forward imo. So the hammer vote takes full responsibility for the lynch? Everyone who votes is responsible, not just the hammering guy. Why does CC not want us to put emphasis on the hammer vote? It is prime opportunity for differentiating scum from town yet he thinks it isn't?
Regarding the bolded, in what way would you say it is a "prime opportunity [to] differentiate" alignments? Give me some examples.
Also, I think you're just shoving words in CC's mouth. He's saying that we shouldn't shift disproportionate responsibility on the person who hammers on a lynch, and I don't see what's wrong about that statement.
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On January 04 2013 17:32 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 17:16 Hapahauli wrote:On January 04 2013 17:10 yamato77 wrote:I agree, the hammer vote should definitely be looked at. With that in mind, I'm not sure why CC says this: On January 04 2013 11:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On January 04 2013 11:42 jaybrundage wrote:On January 04 2013 11:01 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Jay
Any other thoughts on what Rise and I have discussed over the first pages of the thread? Day length, hammer votes, or anything really. We should lynch someone when we feel confident they are mafia. We should always be aware of the hammer vote. People should be responsible for there hammer vote. We shouldn't rush a lynch cause we lost discussions to read people with. Policy Lynches rarely work so we should refrain from doing them. Pretty straight forward imo. So the hammer vote takes full responsibility for the lynch? Everyone who votes is responsible, not just the hammering guy. Why does CC not want us to put emphasis on the hammer vote? It is prime opportunity for differentiating scum from town yet he thinks it isn't? Regarding the bolded, in what way would you say it is a "prime opportunity [to] differentiate" alignments? Give me some examples. Also, I think you're just shoving words in CC's mouth. He's saying that we shouldn't shift disproportionate responsibility on the person who hammers on a lynch, and I don't see what's wrong about that statement. What is disproportionate responsibility? I think there's plenty of reason to give the hammer more look than other votes. It is the act of making the decision to lynch someone, it makes the player into the executioner. The use of the hammer vote is perhaps the most important thing in this game. You said so yourself and now you seem to disagree with me? Why?
In one sense yes, and another sense no.
If someone makes an idiotic hammer vote, I will put that player under a lot of scrutiny. However, a normal, responsible hammer vote is just the same as all the other votes on a wagon in my view.
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So basically, my post deals with the former (idiotic hammer votes). Mr.CC's post in my view deals with the latter (normal hammer votes). And I have zero objections with Mr.CC's view.
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Inactivity is pretty fucking horrible in this setup guys. This is especially the case when there are a couple of things that we should be discussing:
1) Shaio's post about RiseAgain's "overagressiveness"
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391112¤tpage=5#84
2) Yamato's strange town-read on myself:
On January 04 2013 17:01 yamato77 wrote:
Well like I said, the first post in Parallel was from Mementoss and I immediately did not like it. It was really setup focused and said a lot of nothing. He turned out to be scum. My opinion on the matter overall is that focus on the setup is a scummy trait.
Your post this game had a similar feel to me, and as others have said contrived posts are not something to be liked. However, I knew your experience in IRC and thought I made a meaningful connection to why you made the post. My conclusion was not that you were scummy, it is that you're townie.
You say it in a long winded way, but basically you want town to act rationally because you want to lynch people who hammer a townie with little explanation, because that is a scummy play. Again, I draw conclusions to IRC where people hammered townies all the time and the hammerer was lynched really often, but they were often town as well. You want to eliminate this problem, to separate the townies lynching an honest scum read from the scum lynching a townie.
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On January 05 2013 05:53 DarthPunk wrote:
well. I expected to wake up to a hell of a lot more posts than two.
Ugh. There is nothing really to go off yet. All this arguing over set-up only servers to obfuscate reads on things.
Hapa.
You keep asking about our views on Riseagain and the 'aggressiveness' he showed. How does him being aggressive make him scum?
How does yamato attempting to show his thought process and his follow up from your pressure of him read to you?
Regarding Rise - aggression isn't a scummy trait by any means. However, it reads like Rise is trying to pick a fight for the sake of it rather than anything else. That's potentially scummy.
Because it's a strange town-read, and I'm trying to figure out if it's artificial or not. The guy finds setup-speculation scummy in general, then 180's on it because of my tendencies in IRC mafia? It's nonsensical.
So what do you think about all this then?
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YES, TUNNEL ME! Finally someone takes a stance on something.
As for why I'm tunneling, I have two options:
1) I can sit here and derp around waiting for someone to do something. Clearly this is not happening this game.
2) I can try to make conversation on something I find off in the thread to get things going.
I always lean towards option 2. This is why I pursue things early and aggressively early in the game. They may or may not stick (i.e. my case on you in Witchcraft Mini), but it's an important part of the process.
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And once again I am wondering how the fuck a town hapa is not reaching the same conclusions as myself and is pushing the wagons of two people who are null at worst.
This deserves special mention, because it's night and day from your early-game in Witchcraft Mini. You were willing to jump on people for random, inconsequential things in order to create discussion. This statement is the exact opposite - you're finding things null and keeping an arms-length separation from the thread. What's up DP?
Also, you called me "town hapa." Hehe.
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On January 05 2013 06:36 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 06:22 Hapahauli wrote:
YES, TUNNEL ME! Finally someone takes a stance on something.
As for why I'm tunneling, I have two options:
1) I can sit here and derp around waiting for someone to do something. Clearly this is not happening this game.
2) I can try to make conversation on something I find off in the thread to get things going.
I always lean towards option 2. This is why I pursue things early and aggressively early in the game. They may or may not stick (i.e. my case on you in Witchcraft Mini), but it's an important part of the process. well I would hardly call that post tunnelling. In fact that reaction is just plain weird. So what you are saying is that you are deliberately acting scummier than usual but that this is what you do every game?
Oh that's full of shit and you know it. How am I acting scummier? As far as I'm concerned, I'm the only one here actively trying to start discussion.
And what part of my reaction is "weird?" You're dropping words without any reasoning to back it up.
The thing that is hurting this game the most right now is lurking. So why are you not saying anything about lurking? In fact the only time you have 'pressured' people is when another player first comments on them. Shiao Pi with Riseagain and myself with Yamato.
That's a fantastic idea DarthPunk - let's tunnel people that haven't posted anything less than 24 hours into the game. That will do something useful for discussion.
That is quite distinct to what you did in witchcraft for example, which was push people on your own regardless of the positions of others, make a strong case and ask people to judge that on it's merits.
The bolded is exactly what I'm doing this game.
And the fact that you think I'm scummy because I haven't made a case less than 24 hours into the game with 4 pages of game filter is a level of absurdity I can't begin to comprehend.
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On January 05 2013 06:44 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 06:29 Hapahauli wrote:And once again I am wondering how the fuck a town hapa is not reaching the same conclusions as myself and is pushing the wagons of two people who are null at worst. This deserves special mention, because it's night and day from your early-game in Witchcraft Mini. You were willing to jump on people for random, inconsequential things in order to create discussion. This statement is the exact opposite - you're finding things null and keeping an arms-length separation from the thread. What's up DP? Also, you called me "town hapa." Hehe. You know as well as I do that the way I phrased that was not calling you town but in fact suggesting that I could not reconcile your play this game with your town play. So I don't even see the point of that statement. You are talking about djo from last game correct? well firstly that was not pressure voting or attempting to increase activity. That was me thinking Djo was scummy as shit. Lo and behold. he flipped scum bro.
You jumped on Djo for setup-speculation. Why haven't you jumped on anyone here for the same? You've just been all "eh fuck it it's all null."
The other pressure votes from that game were clearly labelled as such and were consistent with the policy of voting for a lurker until they contributed. This policy was clearly expressed beforehand.
So quit trying to OMGUS me with a shitty meta case. Which you KNOW to be untrue.
Nah you're being quite different so far. You feel more distant, and it's scummy. You're not jumping on people, and you think the only player who gives two shits about the activity in the thread is "scummy."
Day one of witchcraft I derailed the wagon on jixian as I thought he was newbie town/scummy town. from our IRC conversations you know very well my positions on wagons such as these. Based on my positions on Jixian and Eywa.
That's a misrepresentation. You really fanned the flames of the wagon until JieXian started being all spammy-like near the lynch deadline. Don't tell me you don't jump on things as town, cause that's a load of shit.
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Who the fuck is saying anything about tunnelling? I clearly said pressure. I fucking pressured lurkers all of day one in witchcraft.
Okay. So where's your lurker pressure now? You're "pressuring" the most active player in the thread.
And I don;t think you are scummy because you haven;t made a case. I didn't say that. I think you are scummy because of the way you are pushing two weak as shit wagons. Which are obviously weak as shit and me not being able to believe that you as town would not see they are weak as shit. ergo you are scummy as we are CLEARLY not sharing a similar mindset about said wagons.
"Hapa doesn't agree with me. Therefore he is scummy."
Not only is this bad logic in general, but we're talking about early day fucking 1.
Also you immediate OMGUS is fucking terrible. Not town play. Not good play. Not town hapa play.
LOL. Name me one of my town games in which I don't OMGUS someone.
##Vote DarthPunk
Straight-up OMGUS and a sprinkle of gut-feeling. You scum brah.
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Naw it's quite good actually.
You've been screaming "lurkers are ruining the game" in our conversation. Your solution? You've never offered a single lurker to the chopping block. Instead, you think the most active player in the game is scummy.
That's a complete load of logical shit, and I don't expect that from a town DP.
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DAMNIT WE HAD SOMETHING GOING - GET BACK HERE SO I CAN FLAME YOU.
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Do me a favor DP: outline your "case" on me. Because it's a load of logical crap.
You're supposedly very critical of lurkers, yet you've done nothing to pursue said lurking at all. Despite this, you accuse me of not going after lurkers. I love you, but you've been caught with your pants down =)
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DarthPunk's Stance on Lurkers
On January 05 2013 05:53 DarthPunk wrote:
well. I expected to wake up to a hell of a lot more posts than two.
Ugh. There is nothing really to go off yet. All this arguing over set-up only servers to obfuscate reads on things.
...
On January 05 2013 06:36 DarthPunk wrote:
...
The thing that is hurting this game the most right now is lurking. So why are you not saying anything about lurking?
DP is apparently super-concerned with lurkers this game. In fact, he has a well-established history of pressuring lurkers in similar game situations. Witchcraft Mini Mafia had a very similar opening, where town was very inactive for most of Day 1. DarthPunk was very adamant about pursuing players who haven't posted. In his own words:
Who the fuck is saying anything about tunnelling? I clearly said pressure. I fucking pressured lurkers all of day one in witchcraft.
...
He pressured lurkers all of Day 1 in witchcraft mini mafia (as town). He's done nothing to that end so far, despite his concern. Basically, his "concern" is a front. He's pretending to be concerned about lurkers, and offering much rhetoric to that end. When it comes down to it however, he doesn't give a shit about pressuring them. Instead, he goes after the most active player in the game.
As a side note, DarthPunk and I have played many games together. He's very intimately familiar with how I play town. Hilariously enough, everything he's attacking me for this game are signature traits of my town play. Pushing "weak" wagons on Day 1, OMGUS plays... these are all things that I do in every one of my town games.
DarthPunk seems to have conveniently "forgot" about our game history for his own ends.
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@ DP
And my case isn't one yet. I haven't even voted for you. But I think you outed yourself pretty nicely in this te ta te. If someone other than Hapa wants me to clarify something or ask me a question then feel free.
Bullshit. You've been calling me scum for several posts now, and now you back down? Yeah ok. Then what's all this crap then (below)?
All the while I am somehow illogical despite having really solid reasoning and you just ignoring that to serve your OMGUS agenda.
Well, that is cool with me HAPA. I don't have to convince you you are scum. I just have to convince the town. And that should be straightforward after this little party we have been having together.
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EBWOP: (Didn't finish the post)
@ DP
And my case isn't one yet. I haven't even voted for you. But I think you outed yourself pretty nicely in this te ta te. If someone other than Hapa wants me to clarify something or ask me a question then feel free.
Bullshit. You've been calling me scum for several posts now, and now you back down? Yeah ok. Then what's all this crap then (below)?
All the while I am somehow illogical despite having really solid reasoning and you just ignoring that to serve your OMGUS agenda.
Well, that is cool with me HAPA. I don't have to convince you you are scum. I just have to convince the town. And that should be straightforward after this little party we have been having together.
On January 05 2013 07:07 DarthPunk wrote:
I will be gone soon. If I stop posting you know why.
@everyone besides hapa. If you get outposted by scum as town you fail at this game. Just saying.
Regarding Lurkers:
Also about the lurker thing. I was critical of lurkers but believing that because I am critical of lurkers I can only go after lurkers is fallacious. Especially when I value knowing your alignment far more.
No see the problem is that you haven't even attempted to go after lurkers or even pressure lurkers. Not even one post.
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@ Xalatos
Welcome! Thoughts on DP appreciated!
Regarding your own points:
MrZ - He tends to do very "trolly" stuff as town and scum. His early-game in Witchcraft Mini is a good example, where he self-votes himself and just posts a couple of meaningless one-liners for most of Day 1 (as town). I'm not too worried about MrZ, as I think reading him is fairly easy. He's very clammy and afraid to post as scum. He's much more open and jokey as town.
JayBrundage - He's lynch-bait (see Hero Mini Mafia). We should definitely encourage him to post more, but he's a pretty easy mislynch (if he's town) because he tends to make sparse and wishy-washy posts.
Mr.CC - I think he's fairly similar to MrZ. I'm not very worried about reading him, because I feel he has a hard time replicating his "jokey" town-meta. His inactivity so far is a concern, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to RL business.
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On January 05 2013 07:28 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 07:21 Hapahauli wrote:DarthPunk's Stance on LurkersOn January 05 2013 05:53 DarthPunk wrote:
well. I expected to wake up to a hell of a lot more posts than two.
Ugh. There is nothing really to go off yet. All this arguing over set-up only servers to obfuscate reads on things.
... On January 05 2013 06:36 DarthPunk wrote:
...
The thing that is hurting this game the most right now is lurking. So why are you not saying anything about lurking? DP is apparently super-concerned with lurkers this game. In fact, he has a well-established history of pressuring lurkers in similar game situations. Witchcraft Mini Mafia had a very similar opening, where town was very inactive for most of Day 1. DarthPunk was very adamant about pursuing players who haven't posted. In his own words: Who the fuck is saying anything about tunnelling? I clearly said pressure. I fucking pressured lurkers all of day one in witchcraft.
... He pressured lurkers all of Day 1 in witchcraft mini mafia (as town). He's done nothing to that end so far, despite his concern. Basically, his "concern" is a front. He's pretending to be concerned about lurkers, and offering much rhetoric to that end. When it comes down to it however, he doesn't give a shit about pressuring them. Instead, he goes after the most active player in the game.
As a side note, DarthPunk and I have played many games together. He's very intimately familiar with how I play town. Hilariously enough, everything he's attacking me for this game are signature traits of my town play. Pushing "weak" wagons on Day 1, OMGUS plays... these are all things that I do in every one of my town games. DarthPunk seems to have conveniently "forgot" about our game history for his own ends. I suggest everyone read the context of those quotes as HAPA edited them out of context to suit his agenda. Hapa stated that he was pushing terrible wagons in order to increase activity. I then said as quoted why don't you pressure lurkers instead as they are actively hurting the game. Yes I am concerned about lurkers but that does not and never will prevent me from going after someone I view as scummier. And yes I do know hapas play. and he is correct in saying that this is all hallmarks of his town play but scum try to EMULATE their town play. The key difference is that Town hapa is almost always CLEARLY town. and right now He is not clearly town but quite scummy. I am gone now. If someone wishes to talk I will be back in several hours. GLHF.
What I edited out of those quotes is completely inconsequential to the discussion.
Hapa stated that he was pushing terrible wagons in order to increase activity. I then said as quoted why don't you pressure lurkers instead as they are actively hurting the game.
Yes, and do you realize how hypocritical this is? You attacked me for not going after lurkers. While you are super-concerned about said lurkers, and haven't attempted to go after them even once so far.
For effect, not once this game have you attempted to go after a lurker.
And yes I do know hapas play. and he is correct in saying that this is all hallmarks of his town play but scum try to EMULATE their town play. The key difference is that Town hapa is almost always CLEARLY town. and right now He is not clearly town but quite scummy. I am gone now. If someone wishes to talk I will be back in several hours.
DP conveniently "forgot" our game-history again. In fact, DP was convinced I was scum in Witchcraft Mini until I revealed my alignment to him after his death! WHOOPS.
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And what's hilarious about this whole DP thing is that it's all words and no action. He has been explicitly calling me scum for the last page or so. Examples include:
On January 05 2013 07:07 DarthPunk wrote:
I will be gone soon. If I stop posting you know why.
@everyone besides hapa. If you get outposted by scum as town you fail at this game. Just saying.
Well, that is cool with me HAPA. I don't have to convince you you are scum. I just have to convince the town. And that should be straightforward after this little party we have been having together.
And yes I do know hapas play. and he is correct in saying that this is all hallmarks of his town play but scum try to EMULATE their town play. The key difference is that Town hapa is almost always CLEARLY town. and right now He is not clearly town but quite scummy. I am gone now. If someone wishes to talk I will be back in several hours.
This guy has been explicitly and directly calling me scum (without any second thoughts). Yet where is his vote? Hell when I asked him to outline his case on me, this is what he posted:
You aren't going to mislynch me HAPA. I suggest you try to mislynch someone else.
And my case isn't one yet. I haven't even voted for you. But I think you outed yourself pretty nicely in this te ta te. If someone other than Hapa wants me to clarify something or ask me a question then feel free.
Also about the lurker thing. I was critical of lurkers but believing that because I am critical of lurkers I can only go after lurkers is fallacious. Especially when I value knowing your alignment far more.
Once again, no case, no nothing. Just more rhetoric about me "outing" myself.
All talk, no backing, and nothing of substance. That's pretty damn scummy.
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EPT
