Paranoia Mafia

On November 25 2012 09:11 yamato77 wrote:
Does /obs give you any special privileges a regular forum lurker wouldn't get? Such as knowing alignments/roles, etc.?

If so, /obs

If not, why /obs?

On November 26 2012 17:51 Ace wrote:
/in

On November 28 2012 04:00 Keirathi wrote:
ffffffffff austin too?

Player....list.....so.....tempting.....

On November 28 2012 11:32 DarthPunk wrote:
I would play. But I am scared of this many good players.

/obs

On November 29 2012 04:22 austinmcc wrote:

Good Sir,

I am writing to inquire as to where one might purchase such a gold-finding chicken. The missus and I have been training gold-finding ferrets and gold-finding cod for a decade now, with no success to be shown for our efforts.

Warmest Regards,
austinmcc

On November 30 2012 08:01 marvellosity wrote:
Hi all.

Totes town ^^

On November 30 2012 08:03 marvellosity wrote:
No, I say "Totes town ^^"

but the meaning is much the same

On November 30 2012 09:15 Dandel Ion wrote:

I'm a noob too, and you already lynched me

So inconsistant

On November 30 2012 10:24 marvellosity wrote:
i'm old, i can't remember which games i played when

just click on games and see if i'm in them, i'm in quite a few

On November 30 2012 08:25 DoYouHas wrote:
Hi everyone, looking forward to an active game. It's nice to recognize many of the names on the playerlist even though I haven't played in a while.

I'm happy to see Marv/BH/VE in here. With those 3 there is no reason the thread should be inactive.

I'm perhaps overly cautious of Ace. His reputation obviously precedes him. Never having played with him paired with the knowledge that he can be a devastatingly effective scum leader makes me a little paranoid.

As always, I am in favor of lurker lynching on day1 unless a better candidate shows up (which it inevitably will).

On November 30 2012 08:01 marvellosity wrote:
Hi all.

Totes town ^^

On November 30 2012 10:06 Dandel Ion wrote:
@debears: Did you give Xatalos your CONFIDENCE speech?

On November 30 2012 10:41 marvellosity wrote:
debears, you so silly

On November 30 2012 10:19 DarthPunk wrote:


All I ask is that you take his newness into account. Marv is right though It probably was unnecessary to request this given the player list. However, I don't think it caused any harm either.

post how you want. I just read his post as awkward and attributed it to him attempting to over polish his posts. His case on your read that way as well.

Can't say I loved his case either.

On November 30 2012 10:38 DoYouHas wrote:


Because it does the dual job of accurately explaining my feelings towards him to start the game and hopefully stirring up a little fear towards him so that people don't sheep him quite as readily. If he ends up taking a town leader role, I want him to earn it instead of being ushered into it on his reputation.

On November 30 2012 10:46 DarthPunk wrote:


Your ridiculous. The only thing silly about it was that potentially people should have known what i was requesting already.

This comment was completely unneeded, brought up something which was over, and just repeated what marv and others said about it.

##vote: debears

On November 30 2012 10:51 DarthPunk wrote:


I read your other posts. mostly meh. That post was scummy though.

On November 30 2012 11:03 Dandel Ion wrote:

Ah, but if you're scum, you'd put more thought and effort into those, meaning you're less likely to slip up and let your mentality shine through than in the less important ones.

Also funny considering how you cast your own votes on relatively minor nit-picky things.

On November 30 2012 11:17 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh, maybe I shouldn't have said I'm a noob, but compared to 90% of the people in this game I am, no way around that.
I'll be sure to not talk about it any more and exude pure CONFIDENCE.

On November 30 2012 11:15 DarthPunk wrote:


Your reading to much into it IMO. It was the start of the game and I am pretty sure he was only being half serious.

On November 30 2012 11:24 austinmcc wrote:
debears,

If both players you voted for are "scummy as shit," why move your vote?

On November 30 2012 12:05 DoYouHas wrote:


So this particular bit of my intentions doesn't apply to you personally, congratulations. Have you honestly never been in a game where someone's opinion was given more weight simply because of their reputation? I have, and I hate it. I can't comprehend how you construe my somewhat subtle attempt at working against that as scummy.



I have no idea what you mean by "such suspicion". You act like I'm actively trying to get Ace lynched based purely on his potential scumplay. I'm not. I'm far more focused on Xatalos.

Everyone has a higher probability of rolling town than scum. This is in no way relevant to me wanting the rest of the town to be cautious of giving Ace influence due to his reputation. I dislike arguing this point with you because currently Ace seems to have no interest in leading the town.

You want to kill me off by blowing a small thing in my first post out of proportion. I've explained my intent twice now. Either you are happy with it or you are not. I'm moving on.

On December 01 2012 00:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
I'm going to be gone until tomorrow because it's FRIDAY.

Good day, ppls

On December 01 2012 01:44 austinmcc wrote:

Some of what he's posted has been rubbish. But he actively participated and generated rubbish, when something dumb led to people wanting to lynch him, he responded to that with more dumb stuff. Gut read on that is mildly townie, because he shows no desire to shape up after seeing that his play may get him some votes.

He followed up on his CONFIDENCE question to debears. I have no idea what that speech is, but the fact that he followed up again shows me that he's participating and maybe not just for show.

All in all, his play currently makes me want to skip his posts and not read them, but doesn't make me want to lynch him. Mild town read, but a lot of that is stemming from it being D1 so there isn't oodles to go on.

On December 01 2012 02:03 austinmcc wrote:
Alright Lazer, doyouhas/debears

I personally find doyouhas's posts legible and pretty clear about what he's thinking. That said, his couple posts are mainly focused on debears/ace, and while his last post ends with
he doesn't actually "move on." At least not to anywhere we can see.

Do you have (tee hee) an overall feel of doyouhas at the moment?

---

Moving on from doyouhas, how are you feeling about debears?

I find his justifications for voting DoYouHas poor, and I disagree with his interpretation of DoYouHas's thoughts on Ace...pretty hard. That alone isn't scummy, but he's very focused in on this one topic, yet drops a top gun picture in the middle of his discussion, and never follows up after DoYouHas posts that he's moving on but never moves on.

If DoYouHas saying he's moving on but not doing so sticks in my head as something interesting, I don't know why it's not doing the same for debears, especially as his vote is still on DYH. Overall, I'm lightly scummy on debears because of the DYH stuff.

Disclaimer, I've only read debears posts in obs qts, and found him to be generally interested in the entirety of the game, what everyone was doing. Some of my read is him not...trying to figure out the game here in the same way I've seen him post in obs qts, but obs and in game are a bit different.

On December 01 2012 02:11 marvellosity wrote:


Where did he say this? He said he was paranoid of Ace's scum abilities.

On December 01 2012 02:43 marvellosity wrote:


I've not found DYH's comments scummy, rather I find them quite straightforward and transparent.

Regarding the voteswapping it tells me that he doesn't value his vote particularly, although I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from that yet... but...



Handily we have him commenting on both players in the same post. On Dandel, we have something that makes zero sense from a town perspective. Whereas on the whole spiel on DYH there is little/no demonstration of why it's a scum mindset over a town mindset. If DYH is town, he could be scared of a master scum Ace. If DYH is scum, he could be scared of a town Ace figuring him out or whatever. Why is one more likely than the other?

From reading this post alone it seems like his vote should be on Dandel, not DYH.

Over to you, debears.

On December 01 2012 03:00 marvellosity wrote:
you can rethink it all you like, but at the time of your post you believed otherwise.

that doesn't resolve anything as to where your vote was at the time of that post.

On December 01 2012 03:03 marvellosity wrote:


why was it scummier than something you believed had "zero town motivation"

Could you not find even a bit of town motivation in DYH's post?

On December 01 2012 03:10 marvellosity wrote:


what has dandel's responses got to do with it?

you're fundamentally contradicting yourself and that has nothing to do with what dandel responds with...

On December 01 2012 03:26 austinmcc wrote:
Dandel Ion (now DI) said he'd be gone because it's Friday.

So we're waiting for a response from someone who explicitly said he wouldn't be here. While it may partially ruin debears' ability to confirm whether DI is doing whatever debears thinks DI is doing, I'm more interested in debears right now than what DI may or may not have been doing yesterday.

I'd rather debears explain what he's thinking, not drag his heels and have more time to respond, and be up front about his thoughts. DI can confirm later or not.

On November 30 2012 11:08 marvellosity wrote:


Simply untrue. Scum have plenty to gain by being ignored. Just take a gander in Ver's guide for an example (Misder possibly)

On December 01 2012 03:38 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Vote: dabears

Frankly I don't care about further explanation from dabears regarding this whole mess. I think he's said enough. The whole exchange between dabears and DYH is ridiculous in my opinion. People don't SHEEP Ace because he's known almost exclusively for his SCUM play. I've seen him really fucking own as town, but people don't know or care about that. Ace is known as a top-tier SCUM player, and so that's the image Ace conjures.

The fact that dabears is all up in arms about DYH "discrediting" Ace is nonsense...not only had Ace barely posted anything at the time, but DYH explained his motivation TWICE and dabears still didn't relent, or verily even acknowledge said explanations.

Also this post rings scumbells for me.



Like...I don't know if it was meant to be a joke, but I think I know EXACTLY when marv started saying he's town at the outset of games, and it had nothing to do with his alignment at the time. Yet he's trying to pass off this post as some sort of actual analysis of marv's play? Simply by calling it analysis? Give me a break. Let's just kill it with fire, yeah?

On December 01 2012 03:58 marvellosity wrote:


the point is, debears, this 'town' explanation only appeared later and was not present in your mind at the time that you voted for DYH over Dandel. At the time you said there was zero town motivation and yet you moved your vote off him for spurious Ace-related reasons.

On December 01 2012 03:58 austinmcc wrote:

No...I don't. Because this came up last night.


Here's marv mentioning Ver's guide


Here's me responding, noting the same thing, that newbie guides keep talking about hiding behind newness as a scum trait.


I also have no idea why, if DI's actions didn't make sense as scum, you'd vote him, say he was scummy as shit, and maintain that point of view.

On December 01 2012 04:05 austinmcc wrote:
debears,

thoughts on lazermonkey and shiaopi?

On November 30 2012 23:35 ShiaoPi wrote:
EBWOP: format



Lazer, why are you so intent on stopping me from questioning xata further?

On December 01 2012 00:03 ShiaoPi wrote:
Well have fun tunneling further then, cant help you.
Since xata is gone now and nobody besides lazer seems to be here I am going to bed now...

On December 01 2012 04:08 Zealos wrote:
I'll be the first to say it.

I don't think Debears is mafia

On December 01 2012 04:32 VisceraEyes wrote:
It rings scummbells anytime someone tries to pass off BS as actual analysis. You honestly can't see Mafia motivation for having town believe he did something worthwhile when he really didn't do anything?

On December 01 2012 10:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
wait, wtf? My last post didn't go through.

I don't remember the last votecount but from my mental image of the game it seems like we're moving toward lynching Xatalos. I'm fine with that; I have some small doubts that he might not be scum (i.e. his activity, for one) but I've seen him play active scum (Newbie XV for example) so perhaps it doesn't mean anything.

However, I want to point out that there is something about Lazermonkey that I find quite disconcerting: he shows up for a brief amount of time, votes randomly, and then leaves. He first did that with Ace and then did it again with Shiaopi. His exchange with Shiaopi seemed really forced and artificial, and he hasn't said anything of substance. Try to think of an opinion he's had or of anything of substance he's said: my mind comes up blank.

##vote Lazermonkey

On December 01 2012 11:41 Ace wrote:
Between VE, marv and that useless spambot BH something is off. I highly doubt all 3 are town and wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them were Scum or anti-town.

At first I was reading and concentrating on the debears-ShaoiPi-DYH interaction but Blazinghand showed up and derailed it all.

I was going to call him out for that terrible case on MrZ but he reneged on it, only to bring up a few more terrible cases on various people in the same format with no real effort to convince people on any of them.

On December 01 2012 11:48 Ace wrote:
There's nothing wrong with it.

On December 01 2012 11:54 Ace wrote:


and so what? If that's your major conclusion from Day 1 so far you're reading skills need improvement.

On December 01 2012 11:54 Ace wrote:


and so what? If that's your major conclusion from Day 1 so far you're reading skills need improvement.

On December 01 2012 12:14 Ace wrote:
Keep watching then. I don't know why you think I would be providing analysis of WBG looking town because that would be dumb but ok.

On December 01 2012 12:58 DarthPunk wrote:
Debears. Why are you being so much less active than usual?

On December 01 2012 15:28 wherebugsgo wrote:
of note: marvellosity thinks I've "contradicted" myself when I've said that I'm okay with killing Xatalos, but I have doubts about him being scum. Xatalos is hard to read. That's my opinion. There is no contradiction here at all, and anyone who has come to the conclusion that there is somehow a contradiction there needs to learn basic reading comprehension.

Compare it to what I could do here (and note that it would be exactly what marv said about what I am saying)



Let's do some marv-level translation:

marv: this is scummy as fuck but I'm going to keep my vote on the guy I'm currently on because I say he's scummier.

How the fuck is that different from saying that I find someone currently on the lynch list scummy, but I'd rather pressure someone else who I don't have the same doubts about?

On December 01 2012 10:37 wherebugsgo wrote:


I understand why Ace voted you now. rofl.

If anyone else is curious, go check out marvellosity's filter. If he's town, he's doig a pretty shitty job of keeping the thread coherent.

On December 01 2012 04:14 debears wrote:
shiaopi - I don't like these two posts together





So he makes a statement "why are you trying to stop me", which to me gives off the feeling that he believes lazer is scum. Then, in the next post he does a 180, and disengages "have fun tunneling further", which to me gives off the feel that he finds lazer townie.

If he believed lazer was possibly scum trying to stop questioning, he would keep pursuing it. If he thought not, then he would disengage.

I just don't see how he went from post 1 to post 2 in 50 minutes

On December 01 2012 15:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
it's always amusing when on day 1, every time I roll town, I get the same shit for the same stupid reasons. There is a pattern to how I play town: I don't say anything useful for almost all of day 1 because on day 1 I like to observe. That's why my opening votes are usually intended to create reactions, and while they almost always are intentional and on pseudo-scum reads when I post them, my day 1 reads usually change very very quickly.

It's also amusing that every time I roll scum no one calls me scum and then I get shot by some faggot 3rd party or a vigi who is scared of my scum play.

On July 17 2012 12:55 wherebugsgo wrote:
Time for questions, most important first.

VE, this question is important:

Do you have a block power, or were you faking it?

Katina, what do you think of both hiropro and VE?

Foolishness and Katina: thoughts on each other, please.

Answers to questions addressed to me that I am willing to answer now:



no to both questions. It was partly why I considered syllo to be scummy. (also his push on Probulous seemed reactionary to the pressure he was receiving in thread, mostly from Foolishness)



I was asked why I preferred layabout even though I found syllo scummy. I preferred giving a full answer as opposed to a half answer, because I know a lot of people want to lynch syllo today and not many seem to be interested in killing layabout.

It may not be an answer that people understand nor even agree with, but that's fine by me. It's my reason for wanting to keep him alive if only temporarily.

At any rate right now I'm completely fine with a multitude of players dying. We can't kill them all but I will be pushing those who I think are most likely to flip scum. If that likelihood changes then so will my vote. If it's clear I can't get my #1 target lynched then I will gladly switch to the scummiest target that has the best chance of dying.

for the record, my scumreads in order from strongest to weakest right now are:


Blazinghand
layabout
Meapak_Ziphh
syllogism

I've omitted Kurumi since he's basically dead.

On December 02 2012 00:43 ShiaoPi wrote:
@Debears: I think he is "tunneling" since is not readng my responses properly but just nitpicks them for the parts he wants to read. Either he is scummy by purposely misreading (what i was implying in the first post you quote) or he tunnels by virtue of actually believing his stuff which I categorize as townietrait.
So I was nullish on him and unsure at the time of those quotes. At the moment lazer is slightly leaning town to me. Especially the way he responded to DP feels townie (even if kind of stupid).

@Zentor: mind commenting on other things beside DYH? I'll take a look at him now.

On December 02 2012 00:54 ShiaoPi wrote:
I looked over DYH's filter and to be honest I think BH to be scummier. Ther are a couple of things that strike me as suspicious, the whole ace is dangerous and xata is noob thing but I also agree with the questions he had for BH. So I want to see some repsonses fom BH right now, unfortunately he seems to be absent...

On December 02 2012 00:53 Ace wrote:
man half of you guys are utter shit at this game. Stop fucking going back to past games and read what the fuck you see HERE. You're shitting up the thread with shit that doesn't even matter.

On December 02 2012 01:00 ShiaoPi wrote:
Bugs is hard to read regardless of alignment (imho).
I dont like him calling out lazer for doing the same thing as he is. But lynching bugs off for that in d1? I would say that it is unwise. I have by no means a sure townread on him but I would prefer to see him in d2 as that is more indicative of his play. We can lynch him in d2 if he continues like this.

On December 02 2012 01:04 Ace wrote:
Seriously amazed that you've read this thread and that is the direction you've chosen to go. Unfucking real.

On December 02 2012 01:24 marvellosity wrote:
gonna unvote bugs for now, his explanation seems kinda plausible.

##unvote

DP seems to be needlessly aggressive. I don't like that at all.

On December 02 2012 02:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
HOW WAS MY VOTE OPPORTUNISTIC?! I PROVIDED REASONING THAT WAS NOT ONLY ORIGINAL BUT SOUND!

##Unvote
##Vote: Xatalos

Enough is enough. Xatalos is either scum hiding inside a tunnel or really really bad town. Considering the way he posts, I'm ruling out town.

On December 02 2012 03:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
You repeatedly drawing attention to yourself (i.e. asking Zealos why he thinks you're town, interacting with Ace after he'd mentioned he was watching you, etc) has bumped you up to null leaning scummy for me. My vote isn't on you because presently I find Xatalos to be scummier. He even admits that I'm not scummy, he's "suspicious" based on one vote at the beginning of the day and is discounting EVERYTHING I've posted since, simply dismissing it as "meaningless fluff". While I admit to a fair amount of fluff (the marv/Bugs/BH stuff a while ago) I have a fair amount of content as well, regarding you, regarding BH and Bugs, regarding Ace. None of this is fluff, it's ALL designed to help town find scum.

And instead of posting about my other suspicions as I wanted to do, now I'm forced to ARGUE WITH YOU ABOUT WHY I'M NOT FUCKING VOTING FOR YOU!

On December 01 2012 11:03 DarthPunk wrote:


LoL. you are being bad two games in a row BH. I am disappoint.

Screenshot

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 01 2012 16:24 DarthPunk wrote:


You are scummy as shit.

Zentor is scum. Oh shit no he isn't. DP is scum. NO wait. Sheep marv, WBG scummier. Wait WBG isn't scummy after all, DP is scum.

On December 02 2012 07:06 Blazinghand wrote:


Although all the statements you gave are true none of them actually mean Ace is scum

On November 30 2012 08:26 DarthPunk wrote:


Wow. I want to lynch you already. <3

On November 30 2012 08:28 DarthPunk wrote:
So this is a game where marv can live for DAYS potentially. I need to get my sheep on.

On November 30 2012 08:30 DarthPunk wrote:
##lynch Dandel Ion

He flips 4th Party.

On December 02 2012 07:19 Ace wrote:
No shit there isn't a counterclaim - it's Day 1. If Marv is Scum why would a cop CC with no investigations? Seriously how bad are you at this game?

On December 02 2012 07:24 Blazinghand wrote:


why would you ever make this post

On December 02 2012 07:49 Blazinghand wrote:


this falls in line with your typical level of helpfullness this game

On December 02 2012 07:55 DoYouHas wrote:
You guys are really last minute vote switching on to me... ugh.

You think I'm not scumhunting? I found scum, I pursued him, and I spent the rest of my time trying to persuade the rest of you.

Good luck all, you are going to need it. You vets should know better. These last minute switches never hit scum.

On December 02 2012 08:27 wherebugsgo wrote:
w/e I'm gonna go eat.

Scoreboard:

Me 1
Retard Train (aka everyone else) 0

On December 02 2012 09:03 marvellosity wrote:


surely if your PM is different from a townflip, that wouldn't help?

i'm missing something here

On December 03 2012 11:23 wherebugsgo wrote:
I think we should consider killing ShiaoPi today.

I'll be back later when I can actually form a coherent post.

On December 03 2012 12:10 austinmcc wrote:
MrZ, what are your thoughts on Zealos?

---

Housekeeping: With DYH actually being a vigi, I'm less inclined to believe that BH changed his vote last second for a save as scum. There are things he could have thought from either a town or scum perspective that would lead him to change his vote, sure. But he didn't have to, and that's quite a snapcall to make as scum.

For some reason I don't quite want to put "BH townie now" but ... that seems more likely. I'd rather pursue non-BH targets today.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 03 2012 15:45 Keirathi wrote:
You know, I was on the fence about BH. There is definitely a point to be made about why would scum BH switch off of the vig at the last second. (I could also make the counterpoint of why would scum BH, in Bureaucracy, vote himself right at the deadline to "avoid" a no-lynch, which he did, but his vote didn't count because it was too late).

I was trying to convince myself that maybe BH could just be playing completely differently from every town game he has played ever, and suddenly become a bad player. But I keep coming back to this:



Now, we KNOW that one of DYH/marv got their ability off (unless you want to conspiracy theory about scum having 2 KP *AND* shooting their own teamate...I find that even more unlikely than scum BH switching off the vig at the last second, though).

Did anyone else actually assume that scum wouldn't have a roleblocker? If someone can honestly tell me that they thought that with 2 blue roles claimed day 1, that one of them would get an action off because there wouldn't be a roleblocker, then speak up because that was not my thought process at all.

On December 03 2012 23:18 wherebugsgo wrote:
ye sandro has it correct. A scum who is not going to die or is not under in any pressure to bus is almost certainly not going to bus.

Any of VE's pushes that "seemed" genuine were probably on townies.

On December 03 2012 16:04 Blazinghand wrote:
And here's what's really bugging me, Keirathi. You're not playing for the town here, you're not trying to reason out reads or interact with people, all you're doing is tunnelling me. Besides a very very brief response to DYH talking about ace, and calling Sandro town, you have refused to participate in the thread. Now, granted, I'm not captain mchelpful always but I share my thoughts because I want people to analyze, think, and develop.

You have refused to share your thoughts, develop scumreads, talk about flips, or do ANYTHING but tunnel me and respond to the numerous people who have defended me in thread. This "looks" like aggressive town but it's not. What this is is scum OPTING OUT of the discourse. Just like Djoref did in Mario, because it's an easy way to look town as scum.

A town player has lots of things to share, but you have NOTHING. All you have is tunnelling me. That's a great way to avoid giving reads and revealing your scum motive, and you're better than that. Most townies are better than that. This is scum play, it's play against the town, and I won't stand for it. Your blood shall flow a beautiful crimson.

On December 04 2012 00:31 ShiaoPi wrote:
now onto bugs's motive to lynch me:
Uh...I cannot help being mentioned by scum in softdefending manner? I don't even see how you can be willing to lynch me off for sth. like this. I admit that I was not the largest help d1, but I never am one of the most contributing persons d1.....

Dunno where the rest of his "case" went, oh wait, there was none. This feels like you guys are just wanting to policylynch me for inactivity.

On December 04 2012 00:36 ShiaoPi wrote:


Well I just did, duh.

I am just annoyed to catch up to stuff like this, getting voted for for no reason.

On December 04 2012 01:44 Keirathi wrote:

Right, I'm not saying tunneling makes me townie, but it doesn't make me scum either.

On December 04 2012 05:00 DoYouHas wrote:
Here is an interesting point that should be mentioned. In a situation where there are 3 townies on the chopping block (myself, marv, DP) mafia will almost always split their vote (every time in my experience). That means that there should be at least 1 mafia on me and on DP (and probably on marv, but that is less sure because of shiao and zealos being by themselves on others).

The votelist for DP is the one that interests me the most, it had the longest time for the wagon to build, so should have had the best chance of drawing at least 1 scum vote onto it.

DarthPunk (5)<---- Has been lynched
BlazingHand, Blazinghand, Lazermonkey, marvellosity, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, debears, marvellosity, Blazinghand

I'm town. marv was town. I have a very good reason to believe BH is not scum. I have a townread on debears. That leaves Lazermonkey as the only person I think could be mafia on a list where I'm pretty sure there is a mafia.

Look at the post where Lazer votes DP. + Show Spoiler +
DP is voting Lazer because he doesn't like the number of null reads Lazer has been giving out, and he didn't like Lazer's given reasons for voting Shiaopi. Lazer is not wrong that DP didn't do a great job showing why Lazer's reasons for voting Shiaopi were bad. However, Lazer doesn't stop with just defending himself. Instead he goes right past that and OMGUS votes DP.

Thoughts?

On December 02 2012 08:27 wherebugsgo wrote:
w/e I'm gonna go eat.

Scoreboard:

Me 1
Retard Train (aka everyone else) 0

On December 02 2012 08:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
you fucking retards

On December 02 2012 08:57 wherebugsgo wrote:


man I asked you to come up with ONE example in context of how DP's meta fit him in this game. I argued that I came to the opposite conclusion and I was fairly loud about it to prevent him from getting bandwagoned.

Yet, you chose to tell me to fuck off. No shit I got aggressive when the guy pushing the biggest bandwagon in the thread refuses to answer any questions about his reasoning.

On December 02 2012 05:27 wherebugsgo wrote:
Explain why DP is scummier than Zealos.

Also everything you just said is not backed up by any evidence. I took a completely different interpretation from my reading of DP's posts in past games. Why don't you actually provide some evidence for your claims, since the burden of proof is on you to establish why DP is scum?

On December 02 2012 05:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
let's kill marvellosity.

Firstly:

he has 6 pages of almost nothing but aggressive one liners. He calls out DP for being aggressive and antitown, yet he's arguably been the most "aggressive" and antitown player all game. I chalked this up to him just being his normal town self, but something seems off in his reasoning this game. He seems artificially bold and he doesn't actually have good reasoning for anything that he's saying.

Indeed he just tried to use a position of authority on DP ("I got his alignment right before" bullshit) instead of actually furthering his case with evidence. When I asked for evidence that supports his claims, he just told me to fuck off. It's clear he's full of hot air and is just a scum flailing around trying to make accusations stick. His accusation on me clearly didn't stick after his half-assed shitty "contradiction" case. It was clear to anyone who was reading the thread that I am not scum, and only the bandwagon-happy and lazy players actually agreed with him.

Check this out:



How does he know what I think based on one post I made at the time? He says I had no intention on following up on my questions, before i had posted anything. ??? He calls out Zealos at some point for misrepresentation, yet this is as shining of an example of misrepresentation as one could ever find.

##unvote Zealos
##vote marvellosity

On December 02 2012 09:44 wherebugsgo wrote:
I also think we should be pressuring these players:

MrZentor
Zealos
Dandel Ion
Shiaopi

since they essentially got away with either abstaining or not doing anything all day 1.

On December 03 2012 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote:
The fact that BH thinks Keirathi is scum is an attest to him either being scum or stupid. Neither works out well.

As I said earlier, I think we should consider ShiaoPi as a lynch candidate. I also thought that we should consider Dandel/sandro today but based on sandro's contributions so far I don't think that's a good idea. If sandro continues being useful I'm inclined to call him town; he's remarkably easy to catch as scum. I wouldn't mind killing BH but I have an inkling he's just being dumb. Clearly I should've erred on the side of "marvel is saying stupid stuff about DP" instead of "marvel is scum because of how he can't see DP is town." (and once again I should've trusted my earlier read)

The tl;dr reason for why I think we should consider ShiaoPi is this:

On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 02 2012 05:12 austinmcc wrote:

On December 02 2012 05:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah, that's where I'm at with Zealos too austin, which puts me at a crossroads because Zealos also voted for Xatalos.

:/

MARV COME HERE I WANT YOU

Why exactly are you voting Xatalos?

He's scum hiding inside a tunnel = he's doing nothing but tunneling someone as a way to look active when he's doing nothing?

Shiao is.......I want to wait on Shiao. At least a day. Maybe tomorrow. I'm not really reading Shiao as scum right now.

Also note I'm less willing to lynch BH and Zealos given how some events unfolded and this:

On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
As it stands, I'm willing to lynch inside [Zealos, Dandel, Blazinghand] today. In that order.

##Unvote
##Vote: Zealos

Of note is that VE's only mentions of Dandel came in this post, which make it entirely plausible that VE was simply throwing forward Dandel's name to distance himself from a scumbuddy. His only mentions of Shiao also come in this post. In general scum ignore some of their team and thrust some others into the limelight. It serves to hedge both bets; one that they can potentially bus, and the other that they can preserve their team. Almost every scum does this, and I don't think VE is any exception to that.

While he mentions Shiao and Dandel only in these posts, he mentions other players (such as Zealos, whom he actually voted for) in other posts and multiple times with at least cursory reasoning. In addition he pushed dabears fairly aggressively, as if he was looking for people to bandwagon with him on dabears. That makes me feel like it's unlikely dabears is scum (although I already had a town read on him anyway) and I think it strengthens the idea that VE interacted more with townies than with his fellow scum.

Anyway, a lot of this is connection-based, but given that these players have been flying under the radar, there isn't much else to put on the table with respect to their play anyway.

To rehash what I said earlier about Dandel/sandro; since sandro seems to be helpful, let's leave him alive. His presence has caused my read of him to improve, since Dandel literally didn't do anything at all. If sandro is indeed town he's our best player anyway.

Of the remaining players I think LazerMonkey also deserves attention. Off the top of my head I can't think of any strong positions he's taken all game, and that's not something you generally note about townies. (curiously, VE never mentions LazerMonkey once, unless you count an indirect mention of an observation I made of Lazer)

##vote ShiaoPi

On December 03 2012 20:03 wherebugsgo wrote:
forgot to mention:

to lend credence to my idea that VE was more willing to interact with townies than scum, note these cursory/sort of nebulous things:

If you ctrl-f "marv" in VE's filter, you get the most hits out of anyone else in the game: 23.

Ace: 21 (24 minus 3 occurrences of "ace" in a larger word)
bugs: 15
blazing/bh/blz: 22
Xata: 14
DYH/doyou: 11
Zealos: 7
shiao/shaio: 5
austin: 5
LazerMonkey/Lazer: 2
Dandel: 2
MrZentor/Zentor/Mr: 0.

I find it funny that this is almost directly correlated with the read I had on each player.

On August 04 2012 09:17 wherebugsgo wrote:


If you want to continue tunneling me, go ahead and waste your time. I'll be in my office drinking my milk.

Otherwise help me get rid of that grush fool who hasn't learned yet that his place is in the elevator and not the accounts department.

On August 04 2012 19:57 wherebugsgo wrote:


I'm discrediting your arguments BECAUSE THEY'RE WRONG.

On August 04 2012 20:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
yo guys I can't play with Erandorr anymore, he's too fucking bad.

Just lynch me.

##unvote

##vote wherebugsgo

I'm not even kidding, this is a waste of my time. I know I have said that it's a priority for townies to establish their innocence d1 and all that. However, if you actually agree with him that I am scum then there is no way I will be relieved of suspicion at any point in this game. If I catch scum, you will say I bussed them because I am good at scum. If I don't catch scum, then I will be lynched for not catching scum.

Just kill me now and get it over with so that we're all happier for it.

On December 03 2012 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote:
The fact that BH thinks Keirathi is scum is an attest to him either being scum or stupid. Neither works out well.

As I said earlier, I think we should consider ShiaoPi as a lynch candidate. I also thought that we should consider Dandel/sandro today but based on sandro's contributions so far I don't think that's a good idea. If sandro continues being useful I'm inclined to call him town; he's remarkably easy to catch as scum. I wouldn't mind killing BH but I have an inkling he's just being dumb. Clearly I should've erred on the side of "marvel is saying stupid stuff about DP" instead of "marvel is scum because of how he can't see DP is town." (and once again I should've trusted my earlier read)

The tl;dr reason for why I think we should consider ShiaoPi is this:



Also note I'm less willing to lynch BH and Zealos given how some events unfolded and this:



Of note is that VE's only mentions of Dandel came in this post, which make it entirely plausible that VE was simply throwing forward Dandel's name to distance himself from a scumbuddy. His only mentions of Shiao also come in this post. In general scum ignore some of their team and thrust some others into the limelight. It serves to hedge both bets; one that they can potentially bus, and the other that they can preserve their team. Almost every scum does this, and I don't think VE is any exception to that.

While he mentions Shiao and Dandel only in these posts, he mentions other players (such as Zealos, whom he actually voted for) in other posts and multiple times with at least cursory reasoning. In addition he pushed dabears fairly aggressively, as if he was looking for people to bandwagon with him on dabears. That makes me feel like it's unlikely dabears is scum (although I already had a town read on him anyway) and I think it strengthens the idea that VE interacted more with townies than with his fellow scum.

Anyway, a lot of this is connection-based, but given that these players have been flying under the radar, there isn't much else to put on the table with respect to their play anyway.

To rehash what I said earlier about Dandel/sandro; since sandro seems to be helpful, let's leave him alive. His presence has caused my read of him to improve, since Dandel literally didn't do anything at all. If sandro is indeed town he's our best player anyway.

Of the remaining players I think LazerMonkey also deserves attention. Off the top of my head I can't think of any strong positions he's taken all game, and that's not something you generally note about townies. (curiously, VE never mentions LazerMonkey once, unless you count an indirect mention of an observation I made of Lazer)

##vote ShiaoPi

On December 04 2012 06:32 wherebugsgo wrote:
holy cock monger that's a long post full of absolutely nothing useful.

why, as scum, would I purposely put myself so against the guy who claimed cop, knowing my team would then shoot him, making me look terrible?

Can you answer that for me?

+ Show Spoiler +

here's a reason I'm not answering you: it's a fucking waste of time. I don't find scum by telling you that you're wrong. I'm not threatened by your accusations because they aren't substantiated and I don't think anyone else is dumb enough to believe you. I am very sure you are town for exactly the same reasons Erandorr was town in Mad Men. You're just too loud and tunneling too hard to be anything but a misguided townie.

So, why should I fall for the bait and try to reason with someone who I know is already convinced I'm scum? No matter what I'll say, your bias will lead you to calling me scum. Therefore it's almost fruitless for me to acknowledge your existence.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'm going to go back to ignoring you until you come up with something reasonably intelligent.

On December 04 2012 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote:


didn't really have one, since I didn't look into his posts on d1. I think I read his posts more carefully after BH said he found DYH to be scummy.

My concern was more with why people were ignoring other players such as Lazer, Zealos, etc. (all the lurkers/coasters) and why BH + marv would ever think DP was scum.

On December 04 2012 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote:


didn't really have one, since I didn't look into his posts on d1. I think I read his posts more carefully after BH said he found DYH to be scummy.

My concern was more with why people were ignoring other players such as Lazer, Zealos, etc. (all the lurkers/coasters) and why BH + marv would ever think DP was scum.

On December 04 2012 07:35 wherebugsgo wrote:


I did, and I thought marv was scummier.

On December 04 2012 07:36 DoYouHas wrote:
debears - WBG is on my to-watch list, but your case hasn't convinced me, here are a some of the reasons why.

1. Your point about WBG not having a single comment about me despite me being the obvious person to switch to to avoid a DP lynch. I only became the obvious person to switch to about 13-10 minutes before the deadline, until then it was marv or zealos. It is possible that he was actively lurking between his posting at 7:40 and 8:16, but the way his 8:16 post reads just doesn't make that seem too likely. WBG, just like everyone, had about a 10 minute window from when I became a hot topic to the deadline in order to chime in on me. That he didn't is not very condemning.

2. Just because you had a townread on marv early does not make that true for everyone else. I certainly did not, I was going to switch my vote to him (instead of DP) from Xata until the claim and until I thought it through a bit more. Something was definitely a little off about his play, I don't think I was the only one who picked up on that. Him being a DT ended up explaining that difference. WBG pushing someone you think is town is a good reason to suspect him, it is not good evidence to convince anyone else that you are right.

3. The list of player mentions wasn't worthless. It would be wrong to put too much weight into it. But knowing who VE was comfortable discussing is helpful. Using the words of a confirmed scum (who didn't think he would be dying btw) is never a bad place to start. It is a firm place to stand to leverage your new reads. WBG's attack on Shiaopi based in analysis of what VE said wasn't the best case, but it wasn't horrid either. Scum DO often refer to each other like that early on when making short lists of reads. It gives them wiggle room to make a decision on bussing or supporting their teammate later on when they are more comfortable with the direction of the town.

4. Your meta analysis isn't convincing. You show that WBG bit back at Erandorr. However, what I gathered from that was that quite a few of the town was backing Erandorr up. This is a major difference between your example meta and this game. In this game you are one of the few people pushing WBG, more people seem to feel he is town. He is under no threat of lynch(day1), and nobody seemed to take your case and run with it. You are expecting WBG's response meta to be the same between a situation where he feels under threat of lynch and one where he doesn't. It just doesn't hold up.

On December 04 2012 07:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
let me make it red for you:

On December 04 2012 08:18 debears wrote:
I just don't see it bugs...

1) You hard defend someone you have a strong town read on
2) You let them die over someone you aren't sure about (DP over DYH)
3) Your town read gets lynched and you flip out on town although you did literally nothing in terms of
a) providing evidence he was town
b) being there at the lynch to sway votes off of him

Doesn't make no sense. I'm truly sorry if you are town, but I don't see a town perspective in this situation. I really don't

On December 04 2012 11:20 Blazinghand wrote:
Ok, WBG I'm putting as a scumread.
.

On December 04 2012 12:56 Keirathi wrote:

I agree with the premise of it. There almost certainly was at least one scum on the DP vote. I personally still think BH is that scum because of my meta case, but I can understand why people don't believe so because of his unvote. And I do have a town read on debears myself.

On December 04 2012 13:35 DoYouHas wrote:
I'm actually liking a WBG lynch less as this goes on, not more.

On December 04 2012 13:51 Keirathi wrote:

I've said multiple times why I think BH is scummy. Even ignoring the roleblock thing, look at my meta case on him. BH hasn't been interacting with people, trying to get them to talk about his scum reads. He just throws a name and case out there, argues with that person, then moves on when its pertinent, and I don't think switching votes from one townie to the other at the last second, when BH's scum meta is to be trolly and 'suboptimal', makes up for that. But other people aren't buying it, so I've stopped trying to push him for now.

As for Lazer:



Particularly that post gave me a townie feel. This was after his big fight with DP, and calling Zealos out. Why would scum LM then, seeing austin doing something that could be considered "scummy", engage him by trying to get him to give reads and start discussion? It would make much more sense for scum LM to just call out austin and leave it at that.

On December 04 2012 14:08 Keirathi wrote:
@debears:

What do you think about ShiaoPi?

On December 04 2012 14:32 Keirathi wrote:

If his lack of presence is the most worrying thing, why Lazer over Zealos, who hasn't done a goddamn thing?

Lazer might have OMGUS voted DP, but that's at least SOMETHING. Zealos was a non-factor day 1 and day 2.

On December 04 2012 20:11 Lazermonkey wrote:
BH I see you got a town read on ShiaoPi. Or at least not a scum read as of yet. Like I said earlier, I think his interactions with VE aren't very telling because VE could've tricked us hard anyway. However, as I wrote in my case earlier, what do you think about the fact that he basically always have been attacking the person that is under the most pressure, always jumping off the person when there are noone left chasing him? And I also don't think his reasons for chasing these persons have been super strong. Long story short, I have scum reads on both Shiao and WBG, why should I vote WBG over Shiao?

On December 04 2012 22:08 Lazermonkey wrote:
EBWOP: Obviously that isn't always the case. If someone is suuuper scummy D1 and then gets replaced you want to look into the replacement alot. But I don't think that is the case with Ace.

On December 04 2012 23:47 sandroba wrote:
Adressing points on debears case:
1) WBG defended DP, but didn't care DYH was lynched.
I would have mislynched DYH 100% D1 if not for his vigi claim. As I've stated before I thought his case on xatalos was utter bullshit and was very convinced of this guy being scum before replacing in. It doesn't surprise me that WBG didn't care if DYH got lynched instead of DP, which he had a town read on. Now as to why he didn't push DYH instead of going for marv I don't know, but I have to admit that marv's claim was pretty sketchy and I had to think real hard before determining he was likely town. "I am DT" in the middle of D1 with slight pressure on him, followed by "I might not be sane" after people start unvoting him looks suspicious as fuck, specially when you are biased because the dude is being a dick in the thread. For mafia it would make way more sense and be way easier to simply ignore marv and try to get into one of the main alternate wagons. Since you say WBG had no qualms lynching DYH why would he not as mafia simply jump on his wagon instead of trying to get marv lynched. Surely you can imagine the backlash he would suffer once marv flipped DT.

2)Vote on marv
I adressed this on the block above.

3)Bunch of random facts
stating facts and saying that they are scummy does not make it so. 'nuff said

4)bunch of random facts
see above

5) Meta comparison to mad men
I thought he was mafia on mad men. I then learned he wasn't. Your comparison is good for proving he is likely town this game though. You see, wbg and erandor had a much closer relationship than you-him. WBG expected erandor to identify he is town and got pissed off and raged in the thread. Simillar to how he expects better of marv and raged in the thread/assumed he was scum for playing like shit D1. The fact that he didn't adress your points can be explained by how he doesn't know your play/doesn't expect much from you and sees no needs to adress a case that has no traction. I doesn't mean he is auto mafia for ignoring you, sorry.

6) claims meta is the same even if you say it isn't
yes. so?

On December 02 2012 07:40 wherebugsgo wrote:
why does it matter, prplhz thought he was dying just like you.

scum do whatever they want to live when they think they're gonna die

On December 02 2012 07:45 Hopeless1der wrote:


Xatalos (1)
Blazinghand, DoYouHas, VisceraEyes, Zealos

DoYouHas (1)
Xatalos, debears, MrZentor, MrZentor

marvellosity (2)
Ace, Blazinghand, wherebugsgo, debears, MrZentor, Blazinghand, Ace

Lazermonkey (1)
wherebugsgo, DarthPunk

DarthPunk (6)<---- Gonna get lynched
BlazingHand, Blazinghand, Lazermonkey, marvellosity, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, debears

Blazinghand (1)
Ace, ShiaoPi

Zealos (2)
wherebugsgo, VisceraEyes, Xatalos, austinmcc

Not Voting (1)
Dandel Ion

~15 minutes until deadline
Please notify me of any errors in the votecount

On December 02 2012 08:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
you fucking retards

On December 04 2012 08:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
and for the record the reason I wasn't around at lynch time was because I was playing dota.

On December 05 2012 03:03 Keirathi wrote:

I could almost agree with that second part if it wasn't for the fact that the counterwagon was on the vig.

I know bugs has an ego though, and I dunno, it just doesn't seem unlikely for a town bugs to say "fuck you guys" before and after the flip.

I'm not even a highly regarded player and I've gotten so frustrated at times that I had to take a break from the thread. So I can definitely see someone like bugs doing it.

On December 02 2012 05:20 wherebugsgo wrote:


yes, let's call scum one of the only players in the game who is not afraid to put forth his opinion.

The fuck are you smoking? Where is your meta read of DP coming from? Based on my cursory reads of his meta and past games, I have to agree 100% with his defense (to BH) and that you're completely wrong about how he plays both mafia and town.

In addition, since when is calling people dumb a scumtell? DP is clearly not afraid to draw attention to himself by saying the thread has so far been useless. I don't find that particularly scummy in most situations, so I don't understand how DP is suddenly the exception.

On December 02 2012 05:27 wherebugsgo wrote:
Explain why DP is scummier than Zealos.

Also everything you just said is not backed up by any evidence. I took a completely different interpretation from my reading of DP's posts in past games. Why don't you actually provide some evidence for your claims, since the burden of proof is on you to establish why DP is scum?

On December 02 2012 05:31 wherebugsgo wrote:


Come up with some comparisons of his play here to play in past games that actually show what you're saying.

So far you just seem like you're full of shit, since I can't see what you're talking about. Prove me wrong or I'll start gunning to kill you, since your reasons so far all game have been god awful.

On December 02 2012 05:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
let's kill marvellosity.

Firstly:

he has 6 pages of almost nothing but aggressive one liners. He calls out DP for being aggressive and antitown, yet he's arguably been the most "aggressive" and antitown player all game. I chalked this up to him just being his normal town self, but something seems off in his reasoning this game. He seems artificially bold and he doesn't actually have good reasoning for anything that he's saying.

Indeed he just tried to use a position of authority on DP ("I got his alignment right before" bullshit) instead of actually furthering his case with evidence. When I asked for evidence that supports his claims, he just told me to fuck off. It's clear he's full of hot air and is just a scum flailing around trying to make accusations stick. His accusation on me clearly didn't stick after his half-assed shitty "contradiction" case. It was clear to anyone who was reading the thread that I am not scum, and only the bandwagon-happy and lazy players actually agreed with him.

Check this out:



How does he know what I think based on one post I made at the time? He says I had no intention on following up on my questions, before i had posted anything. ??? He calls out Zealos at some point for misrepresentation, yet this is as shining of an example of misrepresentation as one could ever find.

##unvote Zealos
##vote marvellosity

On December 02 2012 06:23 marvellosity wrote:


It's very hard to explain a feel meta-read on a guy. Bear in mind I've pretty much coached/hosted/played in every single game he's played in if I recall.

Town tells I pick up on his play are when he's lighthearted in the middle of otherwise serious discussions.

+ Show Spoiler +

Other than the initial phase of trolling, I've not seen that here.

On Day 1s DP is also less aggressive than he's inclined to be as scum. More constructive, like I said. Look at his attitude here as town:

+ Show Spoiler +

Also remember in Mario he was quite apologetic for quite a while about being absent and busy, and was only later in the day he started getting aggressive as he felt he might get lynched.

Here he viciously attacks Lazermonkey (oh by the way, also in the quotes above are how he deals with scumreads day 1 - he's not sure!). Having treeated Xatalos 'protectively' he lays into Lazer and after shouting at him a lot finally says that he's not going to bother dealing with him anymore.

DP feels much more confident unilaterally calling things shit or retarded day 1 as scum because he knows people's alignments and he knows how the game is running and he has some sense of control. Unlike when he's town when on one hand he firmly believes in his reads but at the same time recognises that his reads are often wrong, and so he interacts with the town more on them.

Town DP I know doesn't call the whole town retarded when town is actually working to try to get somewhere.

On December 02 2012 08:45 wherebugsgo wrote:


Keep talking, you give me more ammo every time you do.

You complain that no one had "adequate reason" to vote you, yet you simply throw around unsubstantiated shit like "you're misrepresenting the thread".

The simple fact is, there exists documented evidence that I was right about DP and that you were full of hot air. If you are town you need to realize this. The fact that you refuse to realize it either means you're just a stubborn townie who's playing badly (certainly possible) or, my hypothesis, that you're pressured scum.