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On December 02 2012 07:50 Xatalos wrote:
I'm really puzzled by DYH's tunneling of me, but I can't say if it's A) bad town play B) bad Mafia play. He just seems to relentlessly want me lynched for little to no reason. Would Mafia go that far and make themselves look bad? I'm not convinced. But it isn't really town play either. What the heck is he doing?
At least for me, his tunnelling looked...bad. Not alignment indicative, but not helpful. I poked him earlier, noting every post but one of his was about you, and tried to get him to talk about anything else. In and of itself, that's just not helping town but not scummy.
However, that vote post...that vote post is scummy. It shows he doesn't really care where his vote is, he's just choosing between popular options based on a terrible methodology. Moreover, he's giving up on the guy he's been tunneling all game to go chase someone else for no stated reason.
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Not your Xatalos read. Your other reads.
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Things that we know:Things that we don't know:
We'll find out, but it's not guaranteed yet. Especially given that, approaching deadline, he gave out his reads in one post and then claimed vigi LATER in a separate post. The ordering and the timing on those posts doesn't make me smile.
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On December 02 2012 08:17 Blazinghand wrote:
DYH is definitely not above suspicion. I just don't lynch claimed blues D1. But the way he claimed was probably... the worst possible way to claim and the least useful for town.
That's fine, but...I did not expect posts like these from you guys:On December 02 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
Well at least we didn't lynch the vigi. Damn DYH you ass you needed to claim much earlier than that. Now at least one of you/marv will be able to get your night action done though :D On December 02 2012 08:12 marvellosity wrote:
DYH needs to make sure he claims his shot pre-deadline Both are ... more certain than I like? that DYH is a vigi
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On December 02 2012 08:19 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 08:18 austinmcc wrote:On December 02 2012 08:17 Blazinghand wrote:
DYH is definitely not above suspicion. I just don't lynch claimed blues D1. But the way he claimed was probably... the worst possible way to claim and the least useful for town. That's fine, but...I did not expect posts like these from you guys: On December 02 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
Well at least we didn't lynch the vigi. Damn DYH you ass you needed to claim much earlier than that. Now at least one of you/marv will be able to get your night action done though :D On December 02 2012 08:12 marvellosity wrote:
DYH needs to make sure he claims his shot pre-deadline Both are ... more certain than I like? that DYH is a vigi Um, look dude DYH needs to make these claims specifically because he's a scummy ass and quite possibly not a vigi. He is not confirmed. He is not a town-read in my book.
:On December 02 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
Well at least we didn't lynch the vigi. Damn DYH you ass you needed to claim much earlier than that. Now at least one of you/marv will be able to get your night action done though :D
In your initial post, you didn't say "Claim your shot so we know." You were relieved we didn't lynch "the vigi." Not "the claimed vigi." Not "someone who might be vigi." Not "now we can figure out if that's a real claim or fakeclaim."
Read that post of yours, your first one. It doesn't say unconfirmed, it doesn't hedge, it is absolutely certain that DYH is a vigi.
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On December 02 2012 08:25 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 08:24 austinmcc wrote:On December 02 2012 08:19 Blazinghand wrote:On December 02 2012 08:18 austinmcc wrote:On December 02 2012 08:17 Blazinghand wrote:
DYH is definitely not above suspicion. I just don't lynch claimed blues D1. But the way he claimed was probably... the worst possible way to claim and the least useful for town. That's fine, but...I did not expect posts like these from you guys: On December 02 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
Well at least we didn't lynch the vigi. Damn DYH you ass you needed to claim much earlier than that. Now at least one of you/marv will be able to get your night action done though :D On December 02 2012 08:12 marvellosity wrote:
DYH needs to make sure he claims his shot pre-deadline Both are ... more certain than I like? that DYH is a vigi Um, look dude DYH needs to make these claims specifically because he's a scummy ass and quite possibly not a vigi. He is not confirmed. He is not a town-read in my book. : On December 02 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
Well at least we didn't lynch the vigi. Damn DYH you ass you needed to claim much earlier than that. Now at least one of you/marv will be able to get your night action done though :D In your initial post, you didn't say "Claim your shot so we know." You were relieved we didn't lynch "the vigi." Not "the claimed vigi." Not "someone who might be vigi." Not "now we can figure out if that's a real claim or fakeclaim." Read that post of yours, your first one. It doesn't say unconfirmed, it doesn't hedge, it is absolutely certain that DYH is a vigi. Whatever, it's a wording thing. Scumslips don't exist.
You made a post.
I noted that I didn't like the way you and marv worded your posts, yours was worse.
You IMMEDIATELY jumped on my case, noted that DYH wasn't confirmed, that he had to call a shot.
I pointed out what you said, and why I pointed it out.
You dismiss.
That was quite the strong reaction, both to immediately start hedging and noting that we don't know whether DYH is a vigi and to call me out so hard, thinking that I was being dumb and didn't know why the shot needed calling.
I didn't call it a scumslip off the bat. But man, that is a WEIRD response to a mostly-innocuous comment that I made, which btw was a good thing to note.
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On December 02 2012 08:33 Blazinghand wrote:
austinmcc you can continue to talk about this or you can talk about real things, and one way will have me ignoring you.
Here, let's play a game. The game is called
Are these two posts harmonious, or are they contradictory?
On December 02 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
Well at least we didn't lynch the vigi. Damn DYH you ass you needed to claim much earlier than that. Now at least one of you/marv will be able to get your night action done though :D On December 02 2012 08:19 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 08:18 austinmcc wrote:On December 02 2012 08:17 Blazinghand wrote:
DYH is definitely not above suspicion. I just don't lynch claimed blues D1. But the way he claimed was probably... the worst possible way to claim and the least useful for town. That's fine, but...I did not expect posts like these from you guys: On December 02 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
Well at least we didn't lynch the vigi. Damn DYH you ass you needed to claim much earlier than that. Now at least one of you/marv will be able to get your night action done though :D On December 02 2012 08:12 marvellosity wrote:
DYH needs to make sure he claims his shot pre-deadline Both are ... more certain than I like? that DYH is a vigi Um, look dude DYH needs to make these claims specifically because he's a scummy ass and quite possibly not a vigi. He is not confirmed. He is not a town-read in my book.
I don't care if you're scum or not (that's a lie; I care). But I find those two statements contradictory, and you seem to be attacking me for my conclusion. So...are those posts contradictory or harmonious?
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Keirathi and eventually Sandroba, welcome aboard.
marv and bugs, knock it off. I can't speak for everyone, but I quit reading what you guys posted for these last couple pages. If what you have to say is important, then you're both negatively impacting yourselves here. So...beyond just keeping it civil, how about you both quit sniping at each other?
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Bugs,
On December 02 2012 08:26 wherebugsgo wrote:
holy fucking shit someone needs to shoot BH in the face
Explain.
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On December 02 2012 09:21 wherebugsgo wrote:
whatever, this is fruitless and marv might just be that bad.
So, let's kill BH then. Hopefully someone shoots him tonight.
Seriously, please go into a little more detail about why you want BH to get deaded.
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Is there anyone at the moment who thinks BH is town? Please speak up if you do. We've got a vigi shot that needs aiming tonight, and right now he seems like the consensus to receive it.
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On December 03 2012 07:26 MrZentor wrote:
Okay Keirathi, riddle me this.
IF BH is scum, why would he make that giant case against me and retract it immediately? Odd behavior like that is bound to be noticed, and BH could have easily made himself look productive while throwing dirt on me by not retracting that case.
From what I have seen, BH moves his cases and his votes around A LOT on D1. I remembering doing a votecount D1 in bureaucracy, and scum BH had like 8 or 9 different votes during D1, way more than others.
I actually don't ever want to lynch BH early in a game because he always seems to create discussion and activity with his votes, so even when he's scum he's useful to town. But the "BH odd behavior"/"BH visible" argument doesn't sway me much on him specifically because I'm used to him being visible no matter his faction.
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(Yes, bureaucracy was different, he didn't know his teammates, blah blah blah blah. I don't believe I've seen him just sit on a single case/vote early on in a game before. Isn't he a big "vote = tool, use it early and often" guy?)
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On December 03 2012 07:32 MrZentor wrote:
1. Moving his vote around a lot on the first day.
2. Spending a lot of time making a case and instantly retracting it.
These things aren't the same.
Aye. But it's not just the vote, he's often got a case or something with it, as I remember. I guess in my head it just doesn't strike me as odd for him to have made that case regardless of his alignment.
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Keirathi, MrZ has a point. It doesn't mean BH is town, but it's a valid point.
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On December 03 2012 07:40 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 07:38 austinmcc wrote:
Keirathi, MrZ has a point. It doesn't mean BH is town, but it's a valid point. I disagree. Retracting a mistake case is entirely a null tell. How does it indicate townieness? Why couldn't it have been scum?
It indicates townieness in a bunch of hypothetical ways. It indicates scumminess in other hypothetical ways.
It's not anything definitive, I'm just saying that MrZ has a point.
I just WIFOM about it whenever I try to see town/scum angles, so I don't want to use it as anything major
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I have a smile.
gg marv and VE
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MrZ, what are your thoughts on Zealos?
Housekeeping: With DYH actually being a vigi, I'm less inclined to believe that BH changed his vote last second for a save as scum. There are things he could have thought from either a town or scum perspective that would lead him to change his vote, sure. But he didn't have to, and that's quite a snapcall to make as scum.
For some reason I don't quite want to put "BH townie now" but ... that seems more likely. I'd rather pursue non-BH targets today.
+ Show Spoiler +SECRET PARANOID THOUGHT: SCUM TEAM HAS 2 KP, DYH NOT A VIGI, HAD TO SHOOT VE TO GET CONFIRMED STATUS. ZOMGZOMGZOMGZOMGZOMG. Just a thought, because I do loves me some speculation. We don't know how much KP scum have, and so while DYH probably town, we've got no confirmation. Could also be third party with KP, etc. etc.
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On December 04 2012 01:37 Keirathi wrote:
I want someone to answer this for me:
Do townies tunnel? When they're confident they found a scum?
I said I would reevaluate BH if someone could honestly tell me that they thought that one of marv/DYH's night actions would get through, because my assumption was that one would be killed and one would be RB'd.
I'm assuming your question is rhetorical and you're trying to say that your tunnelling makes you townie. It doesn't make you either alignment, you just tunneled someone.
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Sandroba,
As someone else pointed out, this was a very helpful post:
On December 03 2012 07:40 sandroba wrote:
I have to go out quickly so I'ma post my thoughts early:
Sandroba's Town List for dummies (TM):
WBG - marvelosity = both too emo ragers for it to be fake. I can't see the genuine asshole behavior being faked here and there is no scum motivation for it. I would seriously like to lynch marv for being an assface jerk, but unfortunately I can't convince myself he is scum.
Xatalos - LOL this guy is so townie I don't understand how you baddies manage to bandwagon him day 1. 'Nuff said.
DYH - I really thought this guy was scum for his retard case on xatalos before I read the last 30 pages. However that last minute claim looks really good so I'm putting him as town. Hopefully he can get confirmed by shooting into scummers tonight. Assuming scum have 1 rb (can't really imagine them having 2) either him or marv should get their actions through.
Scummers :
Zealos, BlazingHand are scum. I don't think I need to explain why for BH. Read Zealos oportunistic jump on xata wagon. That post has scum written all over it.
People that I'm unsure but leaning scum:
VE - who you might ask? Yes this dude is playing in this game. I bet you didn't know either. Kei/Ace - Meh ace is a hard one for me to figure out. I thought he was scum when I was obsing because of his "Oh this is interesting" comment, but I'm liking kei a bit more. This BH case seems very convinient though.
But I'd like to hear more. Dandel Ion was missing for a lot of D1, and I want to try and firm up a read on you to make sure I can trust your analysis.
(1) Why was Xatalos "so townie"?
(2) What is your current stance on Zealos?
During the night, you had posts like:On December 03 2012 07:21 sandroba wrote:
@DYH If you are vigi, which I believe you are, I would just flip a coin and shoot BH/Zealos, they are both scum. and the one above, where your top two reads are BH and Zealos.
Today, I scan see reasons for coming down off BH, but Zealos is another story. During the night, Zealos was scum because of his oportunistic jump on xata wagon. That post has scum written all over it.
but now you've tossed Zealos aside and are on ShiaoPi. I'm fine with the ShiaoPi read, but you seem to have dropped one of your main suspects, who you thought was scum because of a specific post, because ... VE mentioned him?
On December 03 2012 21:38 sandroba wrote:
Hmm Bugs does have a point. Also if we assume BH is town ShiaoPi does fit the same theme as VE yesterday. A totally unimpactful player that just stood by the sidelines, because their team was never in danger. I'm willing to roll with that because I'm getting cold feet about BH flipping scum (VE mentioning he is okay with lynching him/zealos should at least make us consider looking in another direction) and Shiao isn't doing shit so it's less risk involved.
##Vote: ShiaoPi On December 03 2012 22:24 sandroba wrote:
Well the thing is that VE didn't know he was gonna die. Do you think he would agree preemptively to lynch zealos in that case? I think our best bet is to ignore those 2 for now at least.
If Zealos was so scummy because of a specific post, why should we put him aside today because VE mentioned him?
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EPT
