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On November 24 2012 04:59 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:41 Z-BosoN wrote:On November 24 2012 02:57 phagga wrote:Ok, now that I've gone through Goodkarma's filter, I know why I thought he might be scum. When you look through his filter, literally the first half of it he almost only talks about what town should do, what people should do (with the one exception of his very first ingame post). There is a ton of stuff that just does not bring town anywhere. He looks like he is contributing, but nothing is really helping town. Also, the tone of his posts seems so neutral, as if he was emotionally completely detached. This is probably what others described as "constructed", for me it is just strange because it seems he does not care at all. The best example for this is this post: On November 22 2012 00:01 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 sandroba wrote:
I wouldn't mind syllo being leader either and if I win I will give him veto power over the people I choose. I'm fairly certain he is town at this point. I found this particular quote to be upsetting. I understand, on the one hand, if you have a town read on syllo. But I don't understand why you would be willing to go so far as to allow him to veto your picks. If you're not that confident in your choices, you should as well just have him pick for you... Or better yet, let him be party leader. As current "frontrunner" I would like a response from you on this scandal. Are you looking to concede and have syllo run in your stead, or was this merely an assertion that you are super-confident syllo is town? He says he is upset, and calls it a scandal, which means it must have pissed him off. Bbut the tone of the post does not feel this way, it rather sounds as if he actually does not care. Then, this post is an improvement. I actually liked that post from him, even if it was a bit long and overexplaining. But then he posted that he would have Sandroba on his team, and I was really confused by that. Afterwards, it seems back to the old ways for him. When I look at his posts from today, it is mostly defending himself, a vote and post to sandroba, that's it. Tl;dr: Too much fluff, a single scum read on the Bus of the day, looks emotionally detached. Now, it is possible that this is his normal way of playing/writing, I am not familiar with his meta. However, for the above reasons, Goodkarma stands on the scummy side for me. Goodkarma:I see you have voted Sandroba. Can you name me up to three other people you also find suspicious, and why? I don't need a whole case, a short explanation what you think is scum motivated in their play would suffice. This is pretty interesting. GK is in fact detached as scum, as from his LVII filter, but I think that his much higher activity is fairly town-oriented, he's prodding around and asking questions. While he does seem detached and has taken the "lecturer tone", I don't see this necessarily be mafia-oriented, due to his activity. After checking his filter, though, there is one thing that I don't really understand, and I would like him to answer this. He goes from:
A brief note on Dieno: He is playing so badly that many would consider him likely town, as newbie scum tend to play far more cautiously. However, the persistence and singlemindedness with which he's been pushing his campaign (even after repeatedly being warned) and shitting up the thread leaves enough doubt in my head to exclude him. As a newbie town trying to improve he would have changed his gameplan long ago, as a troll he would be more, well, trolly, and as a newbie who doesn't give a shit he would have given up. How he's been playing is just plain sad, to the point where I wonder if what he's been doing is deliberately anti-town as a scum. He most definitely could be town, but I would rather not take such a risk on such an unknown.
To: On November 22 2012 21:49 goodkarma wrote:
Okay, I have finalized my team. It will be of an unusual composition (of the semi-lurker variety). Since mafia needs to influence party compositions in this game it is to their advantage to be proactive and not lurking. As such, I have chosen those I see as both pro-town and semi-lurking. These individuals I feel have been semi-lurking while contributing genuinely to the thread their own thoughts and opinions about the current game mechanics and other players. These are currently my strongest town reads.:
In no particular order:
1) Djo
2) phagga
3) dieno (only because dieno has made a role-claim I am inclined to cautiously believe...)
I will be around the next thirty minutes, and will review the thread briefly afterwards in about six hours. Please discuss any thoughts or concerns you have of these players before then. Fairly quickly (in around 7 hours). @goodkarma I would like to know what made you change your mind heavily on dienosore. I don't think that's very clear from your filter. You mention his roleclaim, so was that solely it? Please explain. Yes, it had solely to do with his roleclaim. I maintain what I said in the earlier post, but what makes him a town read for me is how absolutely stupid it would be for him to fakeclaim frog (of all people) as scum. Scum would have to fear a counter-claim, and as a newbie scum I'm very skeptical he'd have made such a move on his own.
I asked. Scum get fake claims. Do you still feel the same?
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On November 24 2012 08:04 marvellosity wrote:
Acro darling, kita me up please.
I was working on GK. Dieno's basis for finding GK scum was not what I was expecting. I agree that Kita is probably more urgent. Give me a sec.
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On November 19 2012 10:47 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 10:24 Promethelax wrote:
edit: Before we start I'd like to say that I am trying to develop a new meta, my old one (easily witness-able in the recently completed ACME) takes too much time which I just don't have in my life right now. I'll do my best to play well though. My usual pre-game warning: I work overnights on the weekends, I won't be here for long stretches of the weekend due to that. I'd also like to announce that I plan to disappear for extended periods of time (assuming I role mafia) 
Mission accomplished?
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On November 22 2012 10:58 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 10:36 sandroba wrote:
@kita sup. Any reason why you don't like me as a candidate? It's fair to assume that given your inactivity you being elected is a long shot like it or not. Isn't it time you read the thread a throw your support behind someone you think is town and has a shot? I haven't been inactive and acquiring 4-5 votes to take the lead is hardly a long shot. I've hardly been inactive, my posts are just less spread out. Don't infer that I haven't read the thread because that's untrue. I've been working on several posts the past hour or two. As for my opinion of you, I haven't reread your filter yet. From what I recall, your posts have been logical and reasonable, but that hardly means you must be town. Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 10:44 Hapahauli wrote:@ SandroOn November 22 2012 10:31 sandroba wrote:On November 22 2012 09:49 Hapahauli wrote:On November 22 2012 09:41 sandroba wrote:I just woke up and there is 20 more pages, I'll respond to stuff as I read: On November 22 2012 00:01 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 sandroba wrote:
I wouldn't mind syllo being leader either and if I win I will give him veto power over the people I choose. I'm fairly certain he is town at this point. I found this particular quote to be upsetting. I understand, on the one hand, if you have a town read on syllo. But I don't understand why you would be willing to go so far as to allow him to veto your picks. If you're not that confident in your choices, you should as well just have him pick for you... Or better yet, let him be party leader. As current "frontrunner" I would like a response from you on this scandal. Are you looking to concede and have syllo run in your stead, or was this merely an assertion that you are super-confident syllo is town? I'm very confident he is town. We talk about reads and games constantly in skype when we are not playing in it, and we get better results when we work toghether I believe. Is there a reason you consider him so townie? I'm thinking of voting you or him myself, so any reasoning you could provide would help. I believe I gave a brief sumary to marv already some 20 pages ago. I've played and talked with him a lot and I'm pretty sure I can tell. We often discuss games toghether so I know what's up with his thought process. Hm ok, I'll look through some of syllo's stuff and see if I agree. Also, thoughts on my thoughts on Toad? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=52#1024@ KitaAs much as I enjoy flag-waving turkey's, running a joke campaign doesn't help town here. Do you actually believe Sandro/Syllo/etc aren't good candidates? Hardly a joke campaign. Hours into the game I provided my initial thoughts, I have been at work all day, and now I have returned to elaborate on my reads after having some posts to go by. I shouldn't be punished based on my schedule. Why have I been eliminated after not having a chance to share my thoughts? I believe I'm a superior candidate to sandroba and syllo.If you remember correctly, sandroba's platform was simply a rehashed version of my proposal that players be selected by their towniness beyond all other factors. Still working on a post of reads.
Kita. Why exactly did you think this? This phrase here seems rather incongruous with all the rest of your campaign. You made some slightly disingenious remarks at Sandro about how the whole town thought they could read him, but asking what it was based on. You made a quip at Syllo's second post. About 20 hours later you come back. We get a joke post with a turkey and vegetarians, and then you say you think you're superior to Sandro and Syllo. Yet you never explain why. Even when asked why.
On November 22 2012 11:31 kitaman27 wrote:I'd also like to state a bit more setup speculation before I forget about it. From a game design perspective, the mafia team has to have certain tools that sabotage our events in order to remain balanced. Without any outside intervention, assume the town comes up with a successful group of players. There appears to be no restriction about selecting the same players, meaning the mafia team has to have some way to combat selecting the same people every time. Even if they can only eliminate a couple of the players through night hits, they are still playing from a disadvantage. I think this is something we should keep in mind going forward. Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:49 Keirathi wrote:On November 22 2012 05:47 iamperfection wrote:On November 22 2012 05:47 Keirathi wrote:On November 22 2012 05:47 iamperfection wrote:On November 22 2012 05:45 Keirathi wrote:On November 22 2012 05:42 Acrofales wrote:On November 22 2012 05:38 Keirathi wrote:On November 22 2012 05:36 phagga wrote:On November 22 2012 02:40 syllogism wrote:
CaveJohnson who are you? It would be helpful to know in order to determine whether you should "know better" than to say some of the things you have said. Obviously the fact that you chose to use that account suggests that you don't want us to know, but if you are town it would be in your best interest to reconsider. I don't like your posts either, although the fact you said you don't want to be picked for the mission is slightly towny, depending on your reasoning, which I expect you to later reveal. why is that townie? I would expect a townie to want to be part of every mission if possible, as it will make sure that at least that spot is not occupied by scum (from that specific townies point of view). If a townie has a low "success modifier". I could see him not wanting to be picked especially in the early game where its much more likely that a scum (or two) are picked for the team inadvertently and it could cause mission loss. How the hell do you have any idea what your HIDDEN success modifier is? What CaveJohnson's post made me think of was 3rd party. I thought syllo was referring to the fact that a 3rd party didn't want to come along on the mission was "townie", because he at least cares enough about the town to warn them off. So why do you think I said that, then? do you know your success modifier? Not specifically, but yes. i dont understand I don't know "My 'success modifier' is 3." But I do know that I have a low success modifier. While reading through the filters, I came across this post. What struck me as strange was that Keirathi insists he has a low success modifier. On what basis is he making this assumption? From my point of view, I would have no idea whether 3 was a low value or the highest value in the game. Only if I had the ability to compare my modifier with other players could I come to this conclusion. Finally, the Frog role claim may be the most important event that has taken place this game. There needs to be more discussion about it. I'll post my thoughts later tonight.
I either mentioned it earlier, or just wrote it in my notebook, he never incited more discussion about the claim. Now that I look back, I would like an explanation of why Kita thought the Frog claim was so important.
Those are my questions for now.
@Marv: I have the right to remain silent (for now).
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Also, gonna play some actual Chrono Trigger. Tired of staring at a TL thread.
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On November 24 2012 11:15 VisceraEyes wrote:
Never forget LI Acro. Never.
Why do you mention me?
Anyway, what I really want to comment on is Drazerk's role and abilities. I can make no sense of it. Just wandered over to the Dota 2 wiki and Invoker has:
Cold Snap
Ghost Walk
Ice Wall
Tornado
Deafening Blast
Forge Spirit
EMP
Alacrity
Chaos Meteor
Sun Strike.
First off: I don't see any "Betrayal" and a wiki search doesn't give me anything either. The other abilities claimed are Lightning Shield (not an Invoker ability), Firestorm (ditto), Chaos Meteor.
What Chaos Meteor does in Dota 2 is drops a meteor from the sky which does damage and then rolls around a little bit doing more damage if you're dumb enough to stick around. I fail to see how this can be implemented in this game, other than as a simple nuke.
So, how about you claim what your abilities do, instead of your Dota 2 analogies, which may make sense to you, but don't to anybody else.
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Also, your claim is ridiculous and I don't believe you.
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Ah, they changed the names from Dota 1 to Dota 2. At least it makes some small amount of sense. Greymist definitely knows his Dota, so there is the chance that he used that. I still don't get the food, though. It makes no sense. Nothing else in this game indicates this. It doesn't make sense compared to my own role and I'm not sure Chef even exists in CT. He didn't claim "Master of Kitchens".
Also, there doesn't seem to be enough food in CT for this to make sense.
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On November 24 2012 12:07 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 12:01 sandroba wrote:
Pretty much his forged nonsensical cases against me, deliberately misinterpreting things to make me look scummy. I'm not quite sure yet because he could be really bad and have confirmation bias, trying to fit every single post I make in his theory. Oh come on... you're straight up OMGUS Clarity? I mean the guy is a relatively new player and has an 11 page filter...
Having lots of 1-liners is a town tell how?
Don't get me wrong. I have no clue about clarity's alignment right now. Last time I read his filter I was null and I have plenty of homework tomorrow. But what the fuck does the length of his filter have to do with it? You want a giant filter? Look at Drazerk in HRM. I believe he reached 25 pages of rhyme. Yes, he was scum.
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Okay. You want vibe? I got vibe.
Sandro: your last two posts sound like you are wallowing in self-pity and acting like a kicked dog. That does not sound like the self-assured town Sandro who tells people that they are wrong, bad or useless if they disagree. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but my doubt is getting very large.
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TheChronicler
I am glad your thought process is finally becoming clear and I am starting to see why you think there is no contradiction there. Let me go through it with you and see if I understand you this time round. If any point is wrong, please correct it, or if the whole thing is wrong, please say so. We will get to questions and considerations afterwards.
1. You have no confidence in your own D1 scum or town reads.
2a. You extrapolate from that that nobody else can be right in their D1 reads either.
2b. Or you have seen so many D1 mislynches that you conclude town sucks at picking scum and therefore also sucks at picking town.
3. Therefore the best town can do when facing the problem of picking not one, but four town reads on D1 is to choose pretty much at random and pray that we're right.
4. Your plan would probably fail the event (but that is unimportant, because we would probably fail the event anyway, see point 3), but would give us insight into who picked whom and based on what reasoning. We could then use this to scumhunt in the rest of the game.
Further considerations are that you would pick your scumreads to give their preferred party member and not town reads.
Is this assessment correct? Please also indicate whether you feel 2a or 2b is most accurate, or both are considerations you had in mind?
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On November 24 2012 19:55 Oatsmaster wrote:
The last thing that I am going to say about TC is that his vote on syllo makes perfect sense with his earlier reasoning that town shouldnt give reads that will help scum.
@Sandro,
Syllo still took damage last night.. so why are you lying?
He claims roleblocked. So obviously his ability didn't go through. I'm more interested in "Shadow". People with shadow magic in the game are Robo, Magus and lots of bad guys. Robo is unlikely to have an ability called Shadow. Magus doesn't seem like town, could be 3P. The rest are all likely scum or 3P. However, Sandro seems well versed in Chrono Trigger lore and would know this if he was actually scum... and would refrain from mentioning this. A conundrum.
@Syllo,
Hopefully the canine will be fine. :D
I share this wish.
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@Sandroba: a lot of the case against you is inspired by the idea that scum must have had someone in the running for party leader yesterday. Do you agree with this? And if it's not you, then who was it?
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Okay. Is your Kita read a process of elimination? Or do you see something in his filter that makes you lean scum?
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On November 24 2012 20:57 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 20:38 sandroba wrote:On November 24 2012 20:34 Acrofales wrote:
@Sandroba: a lot of the case against you is inspired by the idea that scum must have had someone in the running for party leader yesterday. Do you agree with this? And if it's not you, then who was it? I answered that already: kita. He got overshadowed by his lack of activity and the fact that everyone was supporting me or syllo right off the bat. I've not seen any reasoning from you on why kita (or anyone else for that matter). What gives? You're not pushing anyone. Probably you only have to convince syllo, but this influential punter wants to know why you're not pushing your reads either?
Is not pushing reads a scumtell? Especially if so blatantly obvious about it?
Regarding Prome's interactions with me: I'm ok backing up Prome on this aspect of his play. As the target I didn't feel anything unnatural about it. I tend to have quite specific and different interactions with people.
I saw iamp mentioned, and I agree with keir/hapa. Was a townread early but waning.
Regarding my own play - I seem more interested on a lynch day than some party leader n stuff day? Go figure if that makes sense from what you know about me as a mafia (the game) player.
Today I need to research kita quite a bit to see if I'm being unfair with the standards I'm holding him to. I can't really get over right now how he said he supported a sandroba lynch (as if he always had) but had never mentioned it before and has never mentioned it again. syllogism's assertion that kita goes after easy targets hasn't helped.
I agree. Today, I want to figure out Kita, GK and Prom. I also feel that I am starting to figure out Chronicler, which will allow me to go over his filter again and see if it makes sense as town.
On TheChronicler - just totally uninterested. I still don't really think he's scum and it's all a bit tedious.
From the way the game has progressed I get the impression that sandroba and kitaman aren't both town. And there are reasons for both to be scum. Now to find out which is the best lynch.
I am more cautious. I honestly feel that Toad could also have been the scum in the running. I haven't analyzed his play yet, but Sandro is giving answers that feel right. As stated before, his absense of caring can be explained by him simply going afk at the wrong time. His failure to give constructed reads seems fairly in line with what I know about him in the thread. Syllo seems to be trying to read Sandro as if they are skyping each other, which is simply not the case here. I feel Sandro is not playing any different from the town games I have seen him in, except for a noted drop off in activity.
I also think his claim of using "shadow" is indicative of a townie use, but he might be bamboozling us. I realized before he replied that his self-pity could be explained as a townie who is quite unused to getting mislynched feeling himself powerless to convince people (or Syllo) that he's town.
Additionally I am a bit suspicious of the way the Sandro wagon formed. It is basically one giant sheep of Syllo, which is way too easy for scum to just hop on with no-to-little reasoning. While I realize this would happen regardless of Sandro's alignment (based only off what Syllo thinks), it doesn't mean I like it.
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On November 24 2012 20:43 risk.nuke wrote:
You other point is bullshit. I had a townread on sandroba. Acrofales didn't have townreads on his three candidates. He just wanted to send them because they were good players and for that reason.
What the hell? We were like 3 posts into the game. How was I supposed to have a town read on anybody? It was a conversation starter and it worked.
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On November 24 2012 21:44 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:39 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2012 20:57 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 20:38 sandroba wrote:On November 24 2012 20:34 Acrofales wrote:
@Sandroba: a lot of the case against you is inspired by the idea that scum must have had someone in the running for party leader yesterday. Do you agree with this? And if it's not you, then who was it? I answered that already: kita. He got overshadowed by his lack of activity and the fact that everyone was supporting me or syllo right off the bat. I've not seen any reasoning from you on why kita (or anyone else for that matter). What gives? You're not pushing anyone. Probably you only have to convince syllo, but this influential punter wants to know why you're not pushing your reads either? Is not pushing reads a scumtell? Especially if so blatantly obvious about it? if i ask myself what town sand and scum sand would be doing in this situation, yeah, it's a scumtell. I understand far less why town sandroba isn't pushing anyone.
Are you pushing anyone? You're pressuring people, but I don't get the opinion that you have made up your mind on anybody you think is scum. You are not pushing your reads much either. Is that a scumtell for you?
How about Kita? Toad? Why single Sandroba out of the veterans who are not currently pushing their scum reads?
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On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious.
You were IN GoT mafia with him. Sure, I was scum that game, but my criticism against you was truthful. You were throwing names out there and seeing what came back. While I expect you would've figured Chaoser out, and it was too much of a risk to let you live, your D1 was atrocious. HRM you only got going quite late on D2 and it was mostly you pulling that wagon. Sandro keeping his reads close and scumhunting based on reading the thread and throwing a name out from time to time is not contrary to his town play at all. My impression of his scumhunting has always been that he gauges the mindset behind reactions in the game... and if other people are doing plenty to cause people to react, then he doesn't have to do much himself.
Am I certain he's town? No. I just don't like the way this witch hunt is going. Also, your association case is pathetic.
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On November 24 2012 21:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious. what do you make of sand's point about his party selection?
That is the one point I think is weak, lol. If scum is able to take 3 townies along and still fail the mission, then his party selection is neither here nor there. The more I think about it, the harder it seems for a scum party leader to play the party leader role correctly.
If Sandro is scum and takes 3 incredibly townie people along, yet fails the mission, he is scum through a process of elimination. If Sandro is scum and takes a shady character along, he is scum for bringing his scumbuddy along, because town Sandro should know better. Either way, having someone known for his accurate reads lead a failed party is a recipe for disaster for scum (assuming town has ways of killing scum).
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In fact, the more I think about it in those terms, the more I feel like people known for their strong reads would make BAD party leaders for scum. Someone like me, Toad, Prom, Keirathi, Hapa or GK (to name a few of the players I consider mid tier here) would be FAR more likely to get away with it: we can throw one or two dubious townies in there, fail the mission, come up with some bullshit reason why we picked them and get away with it for quite a while. I don't see anybody letting Sandro, Syllo or Marv get away with that. Still hung on whether Kita belongs to the former or the latter group.
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EPT
