Also, everything HeloKnight said.
Newbie Mini Mafia XXXI
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Also, everything HeloKnight said. | ||
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After the 26th I will have a fair bit less time to post - in particular I'm very unlikely to be around at deadline. Before then should be fine. | ||
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On November 16 2012 01:18 JacobStrangelove wrote: The Strangelove has entered the building.... No seriously last exam is... one day and 7-ish hours from now. I'M COMING FOR YOU SONIC! I'M COMING! /in My last exam was one day ago... I signed up here the night before and then spent a few hours thinking about mafia instead of sleeping. :/ Exam was OK though. | ||
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Looking at NMMXXX I was expecting this to fill up inside a day. Well, we live and learn I suppose. | ||
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On November 17 2012 21:44 marvellosity wrote: XXIX took at least a week to fill up. And XXX was special marv porn edition, so ofc it filled up fast xD That'll teach me not to generalise from a single data point again | ||
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On November 19 2012 12:23 debears wrote: I'm going to tell my little townies to mass claim d1 lol That would be a grossly irresponsible act. | ||
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I had hoped the game would be starting earlier to have more time before my other commitments took over, but if most other people won't be around (because Thanksgiving) that would hardly be an improvement, now would it? I really do hope and believe that I will still have enough time after the 26th to play, but if I won't then it should be immediately obvious. If that turns out to be the case I will request replacement around the start of the second day. Is this acceptable? | ||
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2) We should lynch the scummiest player. That being said, building up a wagon on a lurker and watching their reaction is an entirely acceptable means of finding the scummiest player. 3) Either suits... but this is truly delicious. Fortuitously, I will be eating some today. | ||
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On November 25 2012 13:23 Oatsmaster wrote: I got a scum feeling from cheesecake with his first 2 posts, I suggest we lynch him Could you elaborate? I don't intend to lynch based on your "feelings". | ||
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On November 25 2012 13:53 Oatsmaster wrote: think about it if I'm scum, why would I randomly single out cheesecake? why did I even post? WIFOM ahoy! In all seriousness, a green flip on Mr. Cheesecake wouldn't automatically make Oatsmaster scum. Whether Cheesecake is scum or not, Oatsmaster could have a scummy feeling about him without lying. Yamato's desire to line up a day two lynch at this point makes me a little uneasy. | ||
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On November 25 2012 14:16 yamato77 wrote: Still feel uneasy about me? A little bit. I'd still like some input from MunkE and Kickstart (since they're from the US hopefully they'll be around). Care to throw in your thoughts? Also, (to everyone) if you're leaving for the night/work/whatever do let us know, I'd prefer not to be talking to thin air without realising it. HeloKnight appeared to leave before things got a little interesting, but I'd like to know whether he's actually left or is still here and doesn't feel the need to respond. | ||
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On November 25 2012 14:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I really don't understand where your trepidations are coming from. You agree with me, but get scummy feelings from me? I'm not liking this. In the first quote Cheesecake took, Oatsmaster is agreeing with this post: On November 25 2012 11:55 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Pretty obvious statement if you ask me. We just need to possess the confidence to scumhunt effectively. There is a 48 hour window between now and lynch time, so there is no reason anyone should be lurking. If we have to lynch a lurker, meh, but I'd much rather have this "small sample size" inflated within D1 so we aren't forced down the coin flip road. Anyone else around? which is pretty generically town-speech stuff from Mr. Cheesecake. I could well see Oatsmaster agreeing with the body of this message, BUT not liking the fact that Cheesecake is making speeches rather than poking people and looking for scum. (I'm taking a wild guess at what Oatsmaster's feeling was based on here.) And apart from Cheesecake's questions in his first post and contentless sniping at Oatsmaster since that's all there is. | ||
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On November 25 2012 21:37 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I don't really understand this post. What read did you end up with on CC and why? On rereading my post it indeed appears not to have a conclusion. Short version is that I was dissatisfied with Mr Cheesecake's posting up to that point. Slightly scummy, but after five posts my conclusions are, well, inconclusive. I've read the thread but don't have the time for meaningful analysis right now. Will be back in a while. | ||
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For now: ##Vote: Munk-E I require more posts from Munk-E to make any kind of a read on him. Post some more stuff Munk-E, look for scum (somewhere other than in Oatsmaster's early contributions, there's plenty more to read now). If your posts have new content this vote will disappear. | ||
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On November 26 2012 17:01 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Aqua, that's all you got after all this discussion? It is not. (Apologies, this took a while to write, and yes, I was aware of the hypocrisy.) tl;dr: I believe Kickstart is scum. Kickstart's First Post Kickstart's first post was completely contentless. Some rambling about a previous game he's played, just filling space, and the same jab at Oatsmaster that pretty much every other player made. SDM and Jacob had the same material to work with and gave some sensible analysis. And then, after four hours of lurking... DING DING DING DING DING ...Kickstart jumps on Oatsmaster's CC vote. On November 25 2012 21:27 Kickstart wrote: First off your format for your vote is wrong, secondly saying you are "intensely serious" is not a case on cheesecake. Frankly this is ridiculous and so anti-town so far that if it continues I don't think we should keep you around because this is either scum play or bad town play. The beginning of your filter is all fluff, which isn't that big of a deal since it is the start of the game and I don't really expect anything amazing from anyone, but then you post: I already told you before, if you are suspicious of someone you need to make a better post than that, you need to make a case against the person providing reasons for why they are suspicious. Then there is this: Why would you bring up "think about if I was scum", that is not a town mindset. Scum are the ones who would say something like that, all town needs to do is let their actions show that they are being pro-town, and so far you arent. And then the final straw for me so far is this: So you say yeah ok me saying cheese is scum without providing any reasoning is a bit extreme, THEN YOU DO IT ANYWAYS????? This is unacceptable. I suggest you start making some real cases, untill then: ##vote: Oatsmaster Kickstart claims Oatsmaster's vote is "anti-town", or "if it continues I don't think we should keep you around because this is either scum play or bad town play". How in the hell is voting for your top scum read anti town? Especially when the thread has stagnated. Also, trying to remove guilt from himself if/when Oats flips town ("I told you guys he might be bad town anyway, remember?") I'll grant you Oatsmaster is not playing cautious obv-town, but I don't really see anything he's done as being exceptionally scum motivated. What kind of newbie scum randomly tunnels someone within their first three posts? For reference, a post about Oatsmaster which meets with more of my approval is HeloKnight's return #246. Sure, it's not entirely original, but at least he's making an effort. HeloKnight is LOOKING FOR SCUMINESS in Oatsmaster with this post, not saying "Take your vote off Cheesecake because it's bad." Kickstart's subsquent posts don't inspire a lot of town feeling in me either. Next were some short postsposts, which seem to be more about defending Cheesecake than looking for Oats scum. On November 25 2012 22:02 Kickstart wrote: This is stupid btw, we should be scumhunting. If you are going to vote someone, you need to show why you think they are scum. I showed why your posting so far and your vote is crap, and you have still refused to make a case or provide adequate reasoning for your vote. We need to be finding scum - so do it and stop wasting time. With that I will ask again: Can you give us a reason why you think Cheese is scummy and why you voted for him? "This is stupid btw, we should be scumhunting." Do as I say, not as I do? None of Kickstart's posts are about Oatsmaster being scum, just about Oatsmaster being bad (specifically, his vote on Cheese being bad). On November 25 2012 22:40 Kickstart wrote: You two seem to be agreeing that you don't think Oats is scum. Can you explain his vote onto cheese then, because he apparently can't provide a decent explanation for it himself. How is throwing a random vote onto someone without giving any sort of decent explanation town play? All Oats' vote has done is sow confusion because of how pointless it seems to be - which is scummy. Now if you have actual reasons to vote for someone, and present them to everyone, then discussion can flow from it and we can better assess everyone and get some reads going - but as I said you didn't provide that so have only managed to cause confusion. So aside from waiting for a decent explanation from Oats, I would like for some other people to actually get involved in the thread, so far discussion has been between a few people and on not a very broad spectrum of topics, neither of which is good for town at this point. GUYS GUYS WHY ARE YOU NOT PUSHING MY MISLYNCH WAGON FOR ME GUYS And then there was some more defence of Cheesecake. On November 26 2012 06:09 Kickstart wrote: Lol wow I missed that post from yama, glad you pointed it out SDM because yeah it is suspicious. @ Yamato77 You saying Cheese doesn't read town is nice and all, but I am more interested (as I think SDM has said (and you better not accuse me of what you accused cheese of SDM!)) in if you read him as scum. Do you have any scum reads at all? As far as I can tell you are just saying you are suspicious of cheese because he said he was suspicious of you.... Pretty opportunistic poke at yamato, but doesn't lose sight of his main goal - defend the cheesecake! Kickstart also pokes lurkers a lot - easy to do as scum or town. No judgement here. Conclusion: Everyone else commented on Oatsmaster's read and vote based on how they reflected on Oatsmaster. Kickstart appears to be placing a much greater emphasis on how a vote for Cheesecake is bad. In particular, I believe Kickstart was the only one who wanted Oatsmaster to take his CC vote back (which doesn't make any sense, what's done is done and Oatsmaster will just take more flak if he does). Besides Oatsmaster, Kickstart hasn't looked for scum anywhere else at all, and I don't think his scumhunting on Oatsmaster is genuine. His only priority appears to be defending Cheesecake. There are three possibilities: (1) Kickstart is scum, knows Mr. Cheesecake is town and is white-knighting him. A lot. (2) Kickstart and Mr. Cheesecake are both scum and Kickstart is defending his scumbuddy. (3) Kickstart is town, has a town read on Mr. Cheesecake (correct or not) and for some reason feels the need to defend him vehemently against all attacks, in lieu of any actual search for scum. I don't buy (3), and so ##Vote: Kickstart | ||
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If not, why not? If so, why aren't you voting him? Do you find someone else scummier? | ||
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On November 25 2012 14:16 yamato77 wrote: Still feel uneasy about me? When I saw this post originally, I thought the same thing that I've been seeing in your reads - that it seems like anxious scum. This was in reference to a post I made which (among other things) said I was uneasy about yamato. However, yamato (and CC) had posted since my last refresh and I then posted that I'd been ninja-d a lot. I can well believe that yamato might have thought I'd made the second post because my uneasiness about him had been nullified. Could well still be scum paranoia, but there's a reasonable innocent explanation too. I'm still thinking about the rest of the case. | ||
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On November 26 2012 16:57 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Oats, do you have any other scum reads? In a game where 90% of the players look like scum I'm having a hard time seeing a townie so convinced of a target at this point. I'm also legitimately concerned about Jacob and Aqua. They really seem to not want to take a stance on anything. Jacob seems really wishy-washy and not very interested in finding a lynch candidate. He's showing no sense of urgency at all and quite satisfied with the current state of the game, which I would expect scum to be right now because we're really heading nowhere and activity is low. I'm soon heading off to school and I would've liked to be able to narrow down my potential list of lynch candidates, but there are probably 5 players I'd consider now. I don't think I saw anything from you about Jacob after this post. Do you still feel this way about Jacob? | ||
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In short, I don't see any reason (good or bad) for a town Kickstart to defend Mr. Cheesecake as much as he is, without any attempts to find scum aside from a non-insightful case on Oatsmaster. I don't think it's a good play as scum either, but I can see the instinctive appeal of a "let's defend someone I know is town" mentality - and I think it's worse as town play than scum play. As far as the other lynch candidates go (which I'll define as people who had/have votes on them): - Munk-E really, really needs to post more, but scum lynch > lurker lynch. - My read on Mr. Cheesecake is inconclusive. I was feeling him as scummish initially, but his game stepped up when he stopped focusing on Oatsmaster's vote. - I'm not feeling Oatsmaster scum, he's just too... enthusiastic, I guess. - Comparing Yamato77 to HeloKnight (two players who have similar profiles, I think) I see more purpose in Yamato's posts. To clarify, my feeling is that Yamato is giving more thought into how his posts can uncover scum. Compare their filters, YMMV. | ||
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On November 27 2012 00:15 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: @Aqua I expressed why I wasn't entirely convinced about your Kick case here. If you're convinced he's scum, can you explain why you don't share those concerns? Kickstart's defence of Cheesecake wasn't limited to Oatsmaster's case - iirc he poked at the use of meta in your CC case, too. The combination of these two, and the lack of serious posting on any other topics really, is what's setting me off. I'm not quite as convinced as I was last night, but I certainly don't have any better reads. On November 26 2012 22:02 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Aqua Do you REALLY think Yamato has more insightful posts than Helo? Helo was playing neutral, sure, but at least he had the audacity to come up with an original case on Munk with the little posts he had. Imo he's showing way more initiative than this Yamato fellow. Not sure I've read the case in detail, but with the natural suspiciousness on someone with two posts total it's not hard to make some kind of convincing case. I'm not saying Yamato is TELLING us anything more useful, but I just get the feeling that his posts are probing people a little more. Asking more interesting questions. It's a vague feeling though. My vote stays on Kickstart... I'm beginning to see how he might do this as town, but I still think that what he's been posting would look awfully tempting as mafia. I think I might be missing something about Yamato that you are all seeing, but I don't have time to look at all of his posts in context right now. I'm not comfortable leaving a vote on Munk-E when his filter (and the substantiation of any reads on him) could quadruple in size. Kickstart, if you're town, I expect serious and active scumhunting from you in the future. See you on the other side. | ||
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On November 27 2012 06:11 Aquanim wrote: ... I'm not comfortable leaving a vote on Munk-E when his filter (and the substantiation of any reads on him) could quadruple in size. ... At that point Munk-E had made four in-game posts (one of which I don't think I saw) and I had no idea which of a Yamato or Munk-E lynch would take off. Regardless, I think the Munk-E wagon was so big that scum would feel quite comfortable both hopping on it - safety in numbers. Which brings me to Kickstart. To clarify, I don't think that pushing Oatsmaster as he did then or now is scummy - it just wasn't particularly town (ranting about bad/incautious town plays is not a hard thing to do). My concern is and always was his repeating defence of Cheesecake - it was the consistent theme of the majority of his posts. I've never played mafia on a forum before (and not much elsewhere) but I've read a few games, and someone spending most of their posts defending another player seemed completely bizarre. However, I've realised a flaw in my case. At the end, I listed three possibilities: On November 26 2012 17:35 Aquanim wrote: ... There are three possibilities: (1) Kickstart is scum, knows Mr. Cheesecake is town and is white-knighting him. A lot. (2) Kickstart and Mr. Cheesecake are both scum and Kickstart is defending his scumbuddy. (3) Kickstart is town, has a town read on Mr. Cheesecake (correct or not) and for some reason feels the need to defend him vehemently against all attacks, in lieu of any actual search for scum. These all assume that Kickstart was deliberately choosing to defend Cheesecake a lot (which, as I've said, makes no damn sense to me as a town move). However, if this wasn't a conscious decision and he just happened to spend a lot of time defending CC, then that makes some sense. The points (or lack thereof) he was attacking in the CC cases were indeed not that good and his statements were rational. So, having found a credible town explanation for Kickstart's posting I'm downgrading my scum read on him. He is not a town read, either. Attacking very bad play and refuting fallacious arguments are not hard for scum to fake. More reading and posting after food. | ||
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On November 27 2012 16:52 Oatsmaster wrote: Why would scum try to shoot down bad arguements? doesnt it benefit them to have suspicion on a town player? Well, yes... but it benefits scum more to look like they are townies. Almost every case scum makes is going to be on a town player, so they're going to have to lie a lot. By defending a townie, a scum player can make an argument which they know is correct. Furthermore, if they refute a bad case, that doesn't mean they can't make a better case on that player later without appearing to contradict themselves so much. And for that matter, bad cases are easier to refute without letting slip that the scum player KNOWS the other guy's town. Attacking bad arguments is also a good thing to do as town, so it's not much of a direct tell IMO. But as I said, if a player hasn't done anything which would be hard for scum to do, that's cause for suspicion in my book. | ||
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On November 26 2012 15:56 yamato77 wrote: I'll make my case against CC when I get home. My early game posts were obviously bad play. I get that now. Since then I think I'm quickly improving. I keep asking because it does no good to be town and get lynched day one for playing like scum. That being said, I completely understand SDM's vote to me, but I have not changed my opinion on CC. What happened to the case on CC? I know you were defending yourself, but I still want to see this case. | ||
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On November 27 2012 20:30 JacobStrangelove wrote: How does this question help? (then again how does the question I am asking now help) hmm *starts searching filters for scum* I'm having difficulty understanding Cheesecake's thought processes at the moment. I'd like to hear him express an opinion on something which isn't a direct attack or a response to an "OMG you're scum!!!1!" so I can get to know him a little better. | ||
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(Votecounts in the spoilers.) 26th November (Before this is Oatsmaster's CC vote and Kickstart's Oats vote.) [4:59] SDM FoS's Cheesecake, makes case largely based on meta. [5:01] SDM votes Cheesecake. [5:18] Munk-E appears in thread with useless post. [6:18] Munk-E makes a less useless post on Oatsmaster. [6:58] Having obtained a meaningful post from HeloKnight, CC un-FoS's him and Cheesecake votes Yamato. [7:02] SDM unvotes Cheesecake. SDM votes Yamato. + Show Spoiler + Votecount: Mr. Cheesecake(1): Oatsmaster Oatsmaster(1): Kickstart Yamato77(2): Mr. Cheesecake, Sonic Death Monkey [9:22] HeloKnight analyses Munk-E's (short) filter. HeloKnight votes Munk-E. [16:49] Aquanim votes Munk-E. [17:35] Aquanim makes Kickstart case. Aquanim votes Kickstart. [23:10] Yamato makes a long defensive post and gives his reads. [23:14] SDM summarises current cases. 27th November [0:09] Kickstart makes an angry counter-post to case against him. [0:15] SDM votes Munk-E. + Show Spoiler + Votecount: Mr. Cheesecake (1): Oatsmaster Oatsmaster(1): Kickstart Yamato77 (1): Mr. Cheesecake Munk-E(2): HeloKnight,Sonic Death Monkey Kickstart(1): Aquanim [0:38] Kickstart posts his reads. [0:39] Yamato votes Munk-E. [2:13] Jacob votes Yamato. [2:16] Cheesecake analyses Yamato further, and expresses the opinion that he "feels like this Munk-E lynch is an easy way for scum to secure a mislynch". Likes Helo, feels Oats isn't doing much. [5:51] Munk-E makes a post on Yamato. Munk-E votes Yamato. [6:04] Kickstart is satisfied with Munk-E. Kickstart unvotes Oatsmaster. Kickstart votes Yamato. [6:11] Aquanim leaves vote on Kickstart and leaves. [6:33] HeloKnight posts on Munk-E, is not convinced. [7:19] Yamato rants at Munk-E. + Show Spoiler + Votecount: Mr. Cheesecake (1): Oatsmaster Yamato77 (4): Mr. Cheesecake, Kickstart, Jacob, Munk-E Munk-E (3): HeloKnight, Sonic Death Monkey, Yamato77 Kickstart(1): Aquanim [7:25] Mr. Cheesecake votes Kickstart. [7:47] Mr. Cheesecake unvotes Kickstart. [7:51] Oatsmaster votes Kickstart. [8:40] Mr. Cheesecake votes Munk-E and leaves. Justifies his switch by saying he thinks lynching a town Munk-E would be better than lynching a town Yamato. [8:40 - 8:55] Jacob and Yamato discuss Yamato's play. [10:10] Debears is modkilled. + Show Spoiler + Votecount: Yamato77 (3): Kickstart, Jacob, Munk-E Munk-E (4): HeloKnight, Sonic Death Monkey, Yamato77, Mr. Cheesecake Kickstart(2): Aquanim, Oatsmaster [10:11] Jacob claims he "can't vote for Yamato with the votes like this". Jacob votes Munk-E. [10:17] Oatsmaster and Kickstart going at it again. [10:52] HeloKnight posts about Munk-E again. [11:25] Oatsmaster approves of Kickstart's "vitriol and fire" play. Oatsmaster unvotes Kickstart. Oatsmaster votes Munk-E. + Show Spoiler + Votecount: Yamato77 (1): Kickstart, Munk-E Munk-E (6): HeloKnight, Sonic Death Monkey, Yamato77, Mr. Cheesecake, Jacob, Oatsmaster Kickstart(1): Aquanim [11:35] Munk-E makes a pretty bad final plea. [11:36] HeloKnight becomes a little more conciliatory about Munk-E's play, but doesn't want to lynch Yamato. ... and nothing more of importance until Munk-E flips VT at 12. At least he wasn't blue, I guess. So, what's to be learned from this? One question is: what happened to the Yamato lynch? Up until four hours before lynch Yamato was leading Munk-E in the lynch stakes. @everyone who switched from Yamato to Munk-E (in other words, everyone except Kickstart): Why did you switch? And for that matter, Kickstart, why didn't you switch? Also of note: HeloKnight made the original case on Munk-E, and pushed it pretty hard except at the end (when a Munk-E lynch was pretty much a lock): On November 27 2012 11:36 HeloKnight wrote: Okay, I still think it's a little suspicious that your top read also happened to be the wagon of the time, but I'll drop that point because a townie would go after their top scum read. I still don't want to lynch yamato today. I'm trying to not "white knight" him and to keep my mind open to him as scum, but I'm leaning pretty hard towards a newbie town feel right now. Trying to make himself look a little better for when Munk-E flips green, and keeping his options open on yamato? Looking through HeloKnight's filter I don't see much scumhunting substance besides his Munk-E case and an earlier, inconclusive post on Oatsmaster (and let's face it, a case on a lurker with two posts isn't exactly difficult to concoct). I'd appreciate other people looking through HeloKnight's posts and giving your opinion. | ||
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On November 28 2012 00:20 yamato77 wrote: Also I want more from Aqua and Helos. Aqua, you made the original case on kick. Your vote stuck with kick. What do you think of his play right now? Is your backing of your initial scum read final or are you still suspicious? I don't think I have the same problems with his play as I did previously, but I still haven't read anything he's posted and thought to myself "That's not coming from scum". On November 28 2012 01:21 Kickstart wrote: The fact that is can be applied to anyone inherently makes it a bad case when applied to one person. Indeed, and now that I've realised that my case can be I am taking off the Tunnel-Glasses (tm) (made by Confirmation Bias Inc.) and taking another good look at everyone else. And I'll try one last time: I agree that the cases on Cheesecake were bad. I agree that Oatsmaster's posts were not up to scratch. What I didn't like about your posting was just HOW MUCH you were attacking the bad cases on Cheesecake (which is not something I ever felt the urge to do, Cheesecake can take care of himself) and HOW LITTLE you posted on anyone but Oats. And I've still seen no reply to these questions: On November 27 2012 18:18 Aquanim wrote: What happened to the case on CC? I know you were defending yourself, but I still want to see this case. On November 27 2012 18:26 Aquanim wrote: @Mr. Cheesecake: What do you think is important for a good town atmosphere in Day 1? How do you think you contributed to this? One question is: what happened to the Yamato lynch? Up until four hours before lynch Yamato was leading Munk-E in the lynch stakes. @everyone who switched from Yamato to Munk-E (in other words, everyone except Kickstart): Why did you switch? And for that matter, Kickstart, why didn't you switch? Also of note: HeloKnight made the original case on Munk-E, and pushed it pretty hard except at the end (when a Munk-E lynch was pretty much a lock): Trying to make himself look a little better for when Munk-E flips green, and keeping his options open on yamato? Looking through HeloKnight's filter I don't see much scumhunting substance besides his Munk-E case and an earlier, inconclusive post on Oatsmaster (and let's face it, a case on a lurker with two posts isn't exactly difficult to concoct). I'd appreciate other people looking through HeloKnight's posts and giving your opinion. | ||
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On November 28 2012 02:23 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I don't particularly like this broad question and I don't particularly think voting for Munk-E was scummy. I think it's much better to focus on someone who actually did look really scummy during the voting, throwing out those questions makes it so easy for scum to slip by in a sea of answers. My explanation: + Show Spoiler + I was one of the first to express suspicion of Yamato (I actually think Aqua was the first but I can't be bothered to go back and check). I later made the case against Cake, which I thought was pretty good but after Cake had responded didn't feel was strong enough. When I made the case against Cake, Yamato sheeped it hard with really poor motivation, which made me switch to him since I had already been suspicious of him. When Yamato started explaining himself I got the feeling he was genuine. Yes, this is kind of abstract, but I thought his effort to change read townie. Also, Yamato expressed before the game started that Marv was his role model for town play. From what I've seen from Marv he tends to post a lot of one-liners, so I was getting the feeling yamato had tried the Marv strat, it had backfired, and now he was feeling bad because he had fucked up. He explained what his thought process through-out the game and tried to be more transparent than his one-liners had been. Some attacked him for just restating events, but I thought his way of explaining himself was rather good. What was still lacking was original cases, but I let that slip by because making original cases while defending himself isn't really that easy (and honestly, when it comes to a lack of original cases he had competition of a lot of other players). (As an aside, the Yamato wagon still gained momentum even after I jumped off. I thought his response to this wagon was rather townie. This is getting really long-winded so I won't go into detail, but for obvious reasons this part of the defense had nothing to do with me switching to Munk-E At that point I switched to Munk-E. He really had shown no effort and I convinced myself he was an ok vote. I still think he was a better vote than Yamato, but I also still think it was a bad vote in the sense it was a coin-flip. Like I said at the time, it was a cop out and admitting that I couldn't find a good scum read. Basically a policy lynch. Now Aqua, I'm a bit curious about your vote on Munk-E. If found it weird. If I recall correctly, you made a short post voting for Munk-E. Then 45 minutes later you had typed out a long-ass case on Kick. I know those posts take a lot of time to write. Did you really read through Kicks filter, decide he was scummy, type up that post with all the formatting and stuff all in 45 minutes? If yes, then it seems you couldn't have put a lot of thought into your case and weighing it against other possibilities (weird considering how confident you seemed it was the best case out there). I asked that question because I didn't have any idea of the spirit of the thread or thoughts at that time - if I'd been reading and interacting with the wagons I wouldn't have asked. The question is indeed broad and I didn't expect to gain a huge amount with it. As for my vote on Munk-E, I came back, read the thread, saw he still hadn't posted much of anything and voted him on principle. It was a vote intended to make him post some more - any decisions on my part as to whether he was scum worthy of a lynch was going to come after his posts. I had written up half of the case on Kickstart the day before, but I wasn't fully confident in it without seeing another day of his posting patterns before I shook the tree (which didn't change much - if they had I'd have thrown the case out). Having gone back and read through exactly what he'd said since, I added his new posts and posted the case. On November 28 2012 06:33 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: @Aqua How did you become so convinced Kick was scum (or at least the best lynch candidate)? You don't seem to put that much time into this game, so it seems a bit weird to me. I had a lot more time to put into it the first day, and that was when the nucleus of the Kick case was born. Also, I put a little more time into the game than might be apparent - most of my time for the next few hours (whenever that is in your timezone) has been put into reading the game, there's just not many people around to interact with. Most of my time last night no-one was posting at all. | ||
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On November 27 2012 11:45 Oatsmaster wrote: The last newbie mafia had 2 so 2 would make sense for this one. Im confused Munk-e? I hammered the vote! ! ! Quick question @Oatsmaster. What did you mean by "hammered the vote"? | ||
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I had a town read on Oats initially (I didn't dislike his early pressure on CC), but his posts have just kept making no damn sense - he keeps contradicting himself. Maybe he's mafia and thinks he can just post disjointed thoughts and get away with it. Whether he's scum or not, there's at least one other elsewhere, and I keep talking myself out of scumreads on most everyone else. Gonna keep thinking about it. Anyone else here and want to have a chat? | ||
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2) Lemme see... there was the claim that there wasn't a case to be made on CC (and then you made one anyway). Then there was this: On November 26 2012 10:40 Oatsmaster wrote: I made that case so that you guys could see how bad of a case it was.. and yet I've seen no better cases from you since. Dammit, if you're town you need to at least try to convince the rest of us of your reads. Then there was a vote for Kickstart, where you went from "KICKSTART IS SCUM" to unvoting him pretty quick. You also went from thinking I was scummiest after the lynch to not pretty quick (after you'd pitched it to the other players and it wasn't clicking with them). And lastly, even if there had been a night kill we would be at FIVE town and TWO scum, which would give us another lynch. On November 27 2012 11:57 Oatsmaster wrote: also to everyone who said that I tunneled CC, You do not understand what tunneled MEANS. What does tunneled mean, then? 3) Make a more substantial case on Helo and I'll give you my thoughts on him and it. | ||
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Yamato, Oats, Helo, I'd very much like you to prove me wrong. Make some cases beyond superficial comments on already heavily discussed players. Chasing our collective tails on Oatsmaster and Munk-E only earned us a mislynch on day one. | ||
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On November 28 2012 20:22 Oatsmaster wrote: 6. My wrong post about having to get a scum this lynch or town loses was speculation and A NULL READ. I'll make my own decision about what constitutes a null read kthx. For the record, this always seemed to me to be either a "player-not-paying-any-attention-to-the-game" read or scum trying really, really hard to look like derptown... a familiar feeling for me at this point, honestly. | ||
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Thought-out stuff like this is what I'd really like to see from Oatsmaster and most of the players in the States. | ||
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On November 29 2012 12:04 iamperfection wrote: Votecount: Oatsmaster (2): Jacob Strangelove,Sonic Death Monkey Jacob Strangelove (2) HeloKnight,Oatsmaster Not voting (4):Aquanim,Mr. Cheesecake,Yamato77,Kickstart,Oatsmaster If you see your (or another's ) vote to be wrong, it would be kind to notify us. Currently Oatsmaster is set to be lynched 24 hours remain Oatsmaster isn't voting and not simultaneously, is he? Not a critical error at this point (anyone reading the thread really ought to know where Oatsmaster's vote is, after all) but it might propagate. | ||
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On November 29 2012 17:26 Oatsmaster wrote: Maybe I have 2 votes? hey aqua what do you think about helo's case on Jacob? It's plausible. Then again, I know first hand how difficult it is to totally engage with the game and get good reads in Oz. I want to see what context each of those quotes is in and make my own judgement, and that'll take a while. Hasn't changed my opinion of Helo much, though. It was at "town or half-decent scum" before, and that's still where it is. I believe he has availiability problems, which I can sympathise with, but I can see an entirely plausible scum motive in everything he's done. In other news... | ||
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It's kinda difficult to substantiate a read like this, but I have a few points: 1) The Cheesecake vote. This is in some ways a townish move - it started the first real discussion and got the real game underway. I was particularly liking this because I too had a difficult-to-define scum read from CC's first handful of posts. On the other hand, we discussed Oatsmaster's vote around and around through all of day one, and didn't really accomplish that much with it (he was just too random to lynch). Perhaps this was his intention? 2) These posts: On November 27 2012 11:57 Oatsmaster wrote: also to everyone who said that I tunneled CC, You do not understand what tunneled MEANS. On November 28 2012 08:56 Oatsmaster wrote: I see the folly of my bad play d1, but if it helps us to find scum, I am fine with it. This would seem to indicate to me that he isn't just playing badly, he's aware of what he is doing. I mean, his posts were kinda better day two until the lolswitch onto Jacob (and tbh I think there's a worthwhile case to be made on Helo out there) but still... 3) The hammer thing: On November 28 2012 17:13 Aquanim wrote: Quick question @Oatsmaster. What did you mean by "hammered the vote"? On November 28 2012 19:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Again, it was a joke. hammering the vote means that your vote causes the guy to be lynched, if you didnt vote for him, he wont be lynched. Do you have examples of my disjointed thoughts? What do you think about helo being scum? I knew full well what a hammer is. (Check this one out sometime, it's hilarious.) But anyone who knows what a hammer is, or has even heard of one, either read a GSL mafia game, in detail, or has experience with mafia offsite (the concept only applies to instant lynch), which is more experience than I'd expect someone posting like Oats to have. For that matter, Oatsmaster made the sixth vote with nine players, so it's not even like his vote gave Munk-E a majority of the votes. Again, something I would expect someone who knows about hammers at all to know. 4) Grammar. It's not that hard to make a little effort. Everyone else in the game is. And I for one find uncapitalised, unpunctuated posts harder to read and tend to glaze over them. Again, perhaps this is intentional. Look, none of these point are a slam-dunk, and it's not like I have any meta to work with. But the outline they sketch out is interesting - I see a player TRYING to look bad (apologies if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am). And Oats is not contributing anything towards a town victory. Daft town is quite capable of doing that too, but the simplest explanation is scum. ##Vote: Oatsmaster | ||
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On November 14 2012 11:23 Hapahauli wrote: Please do not talk about any ongoing games either in-game or pre-game. This can affect other games and is unacceptable. Please do not refer to outside-of- thread activity of players in this thread. | ||
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First I want helo's current read on oats. This. In fact, I'm repeating this so you can't miss it. | ||
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I've kind of said some of this already but I'll make it clearer. Ok, I've read the case on Jacob some more. In short, I think that his relative shortage of conclusions, sentences going nowhere, leaving "backout options" for himself, etc. are pretty much consistent with his town meta from XXVI. He's demonstrated that he's quite aware of his town meta and (presumably) would seek to emulate it as mafia, but he'd certainly have no reason not to as town. Not a clear indicator for me. Also, Yamato posted quite a bit between Jacob's vote for him and the switch to Munk-E... I don't reckon the switch is inherently scummy, Jacob and Yamato did have some interaction there and Jacob weakening his read on Yamato enough to unvote him is not unreasonable. This isn't quite a clean bill of towny health for Jacob but compared to the rest of the field I'm definitely not comfortable at all with a lynch on him. As for Oatsmaster, I just don't like how uselessly he's been posting, and he keeps wriggling out of giving cases... he made one on HeloKnight and darted out from under it at the first opportunity, and I don't think he's given much else which I found sensible. He's marginally my best scum read, and the concept of MyLo or LyLo with him in the game just makes me sick. Everyone else I think I might be able to improve my read of with more posts and more reading, but this read on Oats is about as confident as I'm ever going to be on him. When we get down to "get this right or lose" I want people I at least *think* I can read. | ||
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On November 30 2012 01:14 JacobStrangelove wrote: Also if we lynch oats and he is doctor we lose sdm (or aqua if sdm is an amazing scum) Aqua sdm scum team guys (lol) <-- if that happens I would officially quit life. I've been thinking the same thing about you and sonic. :/ Also, I'm pretty sure we can have two doctors... though it would be pretty silly. Could there be two doctors in this setup? This possibility seems to be specifically indicated in the preliminaries to the role list, but since noone else is considering it I'll check. | ||
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I can't distinguish anything Oats has done since my vote between "oh crap, I'm doctor about to be lynched" and "oh crap, I'm scum about to be lynched". I reckon his posting quality has improved maybe a little, but that doesn't tell me anything. And claiming doctor and a protect on SDM is about as obvious and easy a fake-claim as claiming VT, esp. without a crumb. Dammit! If you're a doctor, I'm really sorry, but I just. can't. tell. And I still have no better reads, and I still think this read won't improve. Vote sticks. I have 5 minutes before I have to leave, and I won't be back before lynch. In the event of a massclaim, which I do not endorse, it may be possible for me to leave a message with someone and have them post it. | ||
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Bah. glhf all! | ||
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I appreciate you just couldn't lynch Oats at that point (even though he's unlikely to save anyone again, conf. town is conf. town). I lold though when I saw that you thought I had no original thoughts, and SDM thought I was too original. | ||
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And it's all correct. EDIT: Hey, I can edit now. | ||
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you can't kill a dead man | ||
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Summary of this game: Town played bad, and then suddenly Aqua lynch. Only too happy to contribute. | ||
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Incognito's Newbie Guide to Mafia wrote: When you have limited KP and multiple targets you wish to eliminate, it is important to prioritize your kills. 1. Posters that are making sense and are on the right track 2. Townies that are known for being dangerous analysts 3. Blue roles (especially DTs and Medics) 4. Confirmed townies I'd say SDM falls under one of the first two, particularly in a newbie. On the other hand, he might have been too obvious as a kill (and thus protect) | ||
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QFT | ||
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Was Hapa going to give a post-game analysis? | ||
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Some day I will come back to read this game and EDIT: On December 04 2012 04:24 Hapahauli wrote: Oh, and as far as general scum-hunting advice goes, the guides can give you better advice more than I ever could. However, I'll endorse one of my own posts on the subject from Newbie XXIII, which I think encompass my thoughts on scumhunting this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=58#1160 Funnily enough, I already had this bookmarked | ||
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