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On November 28 2012 20:17 JacobStrangelove wrote:
Yeah I am waiting for that case xD I have the most fun shutting down people. However considering there were only three truly in lynch situation (imo) yesterday if i went for any you could consider it sheeping. I haven't been pushing a scum read hard because I honestly don't know. As scum this part is easy you pick a poor sod and you harass him and make him look as scum as possible but as town there is more a sea of potential that my poor brain can't handle.
I have however been looking for scum and trying to understand people (hence the questions)
Yeah, I've been thinking about this exact thing but haven't posted about it because it's wifom etc. But I was thinking "how would I have played this game if I was scum?". This question to me is quite interesting, because when the horror strikes and I rand scum in my next game, I need to play as close to how I'm playing now as possible and I'm not looking forward to that.
Anyway, I don't think scum generally would be very confused and flip-floppy. As scum you pick a target (or a few) and go with it. As scum in this game I most likely would've pretended to be confident that player X or Y is scum and I could've easily gotten away with it because frankly, there are good enough cases out there to make it look reasonable.
So while your argument is wifom, it's a wifom idea I've had myself and you having those thoughts (knowing you've played both town and scum before) makes it feel quite townie.
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everybody makes mistakes aqua.
Is there a scum motivation to posting the speculation?
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Yeah, trying to look like derptown. Didn't I just say that?
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Well I did post a rather large case on Yamato right before night ended and it has only gotten responses from Yamato himself (he basically just dismisses it, but that it to be expected since it is against him) and Jacob who thinks it brings up valid points. Anyone else have an opinion on it?:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 28 2012 07:35 Kickstart wrote:Right so as promised I did some digging into the Munk-E lynch because I felt there would be something there that would help us get some reads on people. After looking at it I have come to the conclusion that Yamato77 is SCUMNow before I get into making my own case I want to show what Munk-E had to say during Day 1 and particularly near lynch time, because at this point in time the only person who we know for 100% is town is Munk-E., so we automatically know that his posts were genuine and had town motivation. Now I will grant that just because Munk-E was town does not necessarily make his reads correct, but I think the fact that he is the only confirmed town at this point gives his reads some extra weight that we cannot yet give to anyone else. Munk-E's strongest read was on Yamato, here are his posts: + Show Spoiler +On November 27 2012 05:51 Munk-E wrote:Right now, I feel Yamato is our best bet. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 23:10 yamato77 wrote:It seems like most people that have posted opinions about me that are negative have done so while quoting or referencing the earliest part of my posts, so I guess I'll explain my thought process behind them. Early on, it became apparent to me, as I believe it did to Oats, that literally everyone was either not online at all or not posting intentionally. Most of my posts were in response to other people. If you'll notice, one of them was in response to CC asking me what I thought of him. I said On November 25 2012 14:53 yamato77 wrote:
I don't really care for your topics of discussion, but that's about it. Perhaps I should have explained then, but I meant that I didn't like the way he entered the thread. His little questionnaire was really, really pointless. It seemed to me at the time something that a mafia player might do to appear to be "starting discussion" without putting anything of real value in the thread. Thus, I limited my posting intentionally as to not really do anything except react to other people and try to get them to give information. Aqua was willing; I asked him his thoughts on me and Cheesecake and he gave them, without any questions. It was then that Cheesecake asked me my opinion of him, and I gave the aforementioned answer. Then he asked me what I thought the discussion should be about, and I told him, I thought us (Aqua and I) talking about whether he was acting suspicious was fine. I called out Oats for calling him scum, which I was not ready to do without more solid evidence, and have not done so yet. My next post received a lot of heat. I posted my ill-timed opinion of Mr. Cheesecake. I was being honest. Nothing looked like worthwhile contribution up to that point, to me. It still doesn't. He says he has contributed, but I don't see anything except a poor read on Helos he backed away from, continually attacking me for voicing my opinion of him, and defending himself. He has posted no other reads on anyone else. I keep saying these same things and they are still true. I want to know what people think of me because I don't want to be surprised by more votes on me like I was with SDM's. I didn't like his voting of me because I didn't think people would honestly give a scum read on me based on my posting up to that point. I suppose I was wrong, which is why I've since become much more forthcoming with my thoughts and motivations. As far as reads on other people. Kickstarter's sheer aggression when defending Cheesecake against Oats is astounding. He uses vulgar language more than once and seems wholly preoccupied with Oats' vote being on CC. He doesn't even care if other people think Oats is scum necessarily, so why did he vote for him? The play doesn't really make sense because all he did was cause a whole lot of uproar over a play that no one else saw as scummy. If anything, THAT seems like a scum play. That being said, Oats is definitely not a town read. None of his posting is particularly forthcoming about his actual motivation. His vote on CC, while initially seeming like a pressure vote, hasn't been justified properly. SDM and Aqua are probably town. They have posted the most real content up to this point and their arguments have been clearly motivated. Helo is a less troll version of Oats. None of his play is backed with clear motivation, but it is not inherently scummy either. If Jacob misspells my name one more time I will lynch him. In seriousness, I think he has posted a lot of fluff and rehashed arguments. I am interested in who he reads as blue, though. I have a blue read too. Munk-E is seriously lackluster. I would vote for him over CC if I made a choice right now. I don't like CC's play but I don't like how little Munk has contributed and how long he has lurked. So to rank my reads from scummiest to least it would go: Munk-E Cheesecake Kickstarter (area of ambiguity) Jacob Helo Oats (/end area of ambiguity) SDM Aqua Me He seems to be against me, CC and kickstarter. I understand his reasoning behind being suspicious of me (despite my opinion of being suspicious of lurkers), however he never made an argument against CC, despite promising to. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 15:56 yamato77 wrote:
I'll make my case against CC when I get home. My early game posts were obviously bad play. I get that now. Since then I think I'm quickly improving. I keep asking because it does no good to be town and get lynched day one for playing like scum.
That being said, I completely understand SDM's vote to me, but I have not changed my opinion on CC. In fact, the only one I see who has made a real case against CC is SDM, and that case was based off of how he played in previous games. I feel basing a scum read on how he played before is really dumb, because he could easily change his style, and in that post he also said that he probably intentionally did that. This just creates a massive WIFOM situation, and thus to me, invalidates the point. This post was also posted in the middle of a minor Kickstarter bandwagon. And while he did make a small case against kickstarter, it was nothing really substantial, and somewhat contradictive. Show nested quote +The play doesn't really make sense because all he did was cause a whole lot of uproar over a play that no one else saw as scummy. If anything, THAT seems like a scum play.
That being said, Oats is definitely not a town read. (Also as a side note, I saw that play as scummy, as I explained before.) This may be to distance himself from oats, who I feel still isn't in the clear, but his entire case on kickstarter was because he went after oats so aggressively, therefore, going and saying he might be scum is contradictory to his entire case. What I noticed most about his only posts that were more than a few lines were hardcore about defending his image. (above and below) Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:55 yamato77 wrote:On November 26 2012 06:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Yes, SDM, I know you pointed this out, but I have to say something. On November 26 2012 05:34 yamato77 wrote:
Mr. Cheesecake is playing without contributing. He's written a lot, but most of it is absolutely useless to a town looking for scum. His policy discussion and talk about other mafia games he's played doesn't help hunt for other players, it seems like more of a defense for himself. Then he calls out two players, myself and Helo, trying to draw attention away from himself. None of this reads town to me, at all. I really do NOT like this kind of post from Yamato. First, he is completely hypocritical because he hasn't contributed two cents to the thread. Secondly, he is answering a question that isn't addressed to him. He randomly pops up when I'm being pressured to cast aspersions on me. Where was he before this? What is his motivation or making such a cavalier, random post? He is entitled to his opinion, but his convenient timing and content reads inherently scummy to me. My motivation is to give my read on someone who is playing suspiciously since his first post. Where was I before that? Asleep. A bunch of your argument to me is simply fallacy. Me being hypocritical (whether true or not) has nothing to do with your contributions to the thread. My timing and content is scummy? Of course I want to voice my opinion on someone who is being cast into the spotlight. What am I supposed to do? Ignore it? You didn't even answer my accusations, you just spun around and attacked me. At least SDM's post against mine had some quality. On November 26 2012 06:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
I don't like this reaction. Sure, you can argue he hasn't contributed much, but at least he's been somewhat enganged in the thread unlike a lot of others.
Aside from that, the reason he talked about his old games was because I asked him, him answering is appreciated. Him calling out you and Helo can easily have town motivations. Obviously town wants to call out what he considers suspicious bahaviour.
You end up saying nothing reads town, but the more important question is: does it read scum, and why?
Other than that your one-liners are really not contributing much and kind of stay-under-the-radar like.
FOS Yamato I don't think my posting at the beginning should be taken as alignment indicative. It was prodding, mostly. I'm on the fence about Mr. Cheesecake. His posting is still mostly defending himself, and attacking two players who posted early, me and Helo. That kind of behavior doesn't really indicate alignment, but if he keeps coming after me with posts that don't even address my concerns about him, I'm going to vote for him. Most of what I've posted so far has been to get a reaction, and it has worked. How people answer questions and accusations are definitely tells. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 12:38 yamato77 wrote:
SDM's vote on me is based on information from a single post basically, which does not bode well for my opinion of him. Honestly if I am your top scumread because of a bunch of one-liners and a post where I give my negative opinion on someone you read as scum, you are doing something wrong.
CC's vote on me looks like scum trying to deflect attention onto a player receiving negative heat. Also, it would eliminate someone he sees as a threat, if he was scum, in that I haven't liked his play since the start of the game.
I'm tempted to vote Cheesecake with you, if your vote is actually serious. However, if I get lynched today, I would 100% go after CC and SDM tomorrow because of the way they have parked their votes on me. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:26 yamato77 wrote:
You want my opinion on Oats? He is probably just a bored townie early on because him giving some silly read is just to spark discussion on something. As he keeps going on, a lot of his posting is in reaction to you and accusations against him, which is entirely logical given that until you guys FoS'd me, that was the only discussion. Nothing there reads either way, in particular.
SDM's post was "a little jab"? Dude voted for you. If I'm interested in his reasons, which I was, and I have my own reasons, which I did, I would voice them. Again, am I supposed to just stay silent and let you lynch me for saying nothing?
I definitely said I didn't like your topics of discussion in my first few posts. They are fluff, which I don't care for. I didn't react to them because that is adding to the fluff. If that is how people think we should start threads, I disagree. It doesn't provide any information at all. What Oats did was more productive, in my opinion, but hardly alignment indicative.
Also, I'm definitely interested to see if SDM still thinks my play is scummy after these two posts. And how about the rest of you lurkers? Do I look scummy to you? Yes Yamato, yes you doNow I shouldn't need to tell you why I'm suspicious of someone who's only real content is making cases for why he's innocent. He also voted for me after both helo and SDM, but i'll let it slide because I was at the top of suscpicion list. Nonetheless, he seems most concerned about defending himself, and explaining his actions, and that certainly seems more scummy than anyone else so far to me, and while I wish I had longer to decide, he certainly looks the worst to me, so therefore ##Vote: yamato77(p.s. before anyone says it, I didn't just make this post because he was voting for me, I understand that's just pressure.) and + Show Spoiler +On November 27 2012 11:26 Munk-E wrote:
Alright,i hate having to defend myself, but i guess it's necessary so you don't waste a vote. No one has made a real case against me. The only real argument against me that everyone claims is that I'm lurking, and that i voted to save myself. As for the lurking, the point of accusing lurkers is to get them to talk. In theory, the more they say the easier they are to read, of they're mafia, they might say too much and give a tell. This point is null though, because it brings suspicion to lurkers. Besides, you got what you want from me, I'm talking more. As for the voting solely to save myself, it's not true. Yamato still is the scummiest player here, doing minimal scum hunting and over reacting every time someone accuses him of something. Someone accused me of being sheepish, because i said i wasn't 100% sure. I guess that was a wrong thing to say, even though that's how the game works. You never are positive about a role unless you are detective, which wouldn't work because it's day one, or mafia. You just go with your best guess.
The point is there isn't a case against me, just a band wagon. Honestly, there are so many of you that voted for me with no or minimal justification, especially those who only recently jumped on the bandwagon. Now to sum up Munk-E's points against Yamato (but you should still read the posts I quoted because I think Munk-E actually did a good job in making his case, and again knowing that Munk-E was town makes his rather well thought out case against Yamato even more compelling) he accuses Yamato of content less posting, not making any scum reads himself while getting on others for doing the same thing, and of only defending himself. All of these charges are true and they hold up all through Yamato's filter. Now I cant copy and paste his entire filter but I encourage you to go look at it and you will see that Yamato has the largest filter of anyone in the game (about 5 pages), but it entirely composed of, one liners, summation posts (just a summary of events thus far), defense of himself, and bad/easy cases (his only real cases have been against cheese, both times they are bad and use points that have already been made by someone else). Now that is a huge pattern of posting - he has had more posts than anyone else and with the longest filter he has managed to offer nearly nothing in the way of looking for scum. Now all this so far is bad for Yamato and on its own would make a good case against him and is good enough reason to vote for him because it is all very scummy. But looking at the Munk-E lynch I found something even more damning. I looked at the progression of votes that went onto Munk-E and tried to see which ones were suspicious. The first vote on Munk-E is from HeloKnight and the second is from SDM. Now Helo is the first to make a move on Munk-E and does it because Munk-E is lurking and the only post Munk-E did make was a sheep onto Oats - both valid points at the time. Now SDMs vote onto Munk-E is for lurking aswell, but at least SDM is hesitant with the vote, but still gives solid reasons for it other than the ones Helo gave and doesn't seem to be jumping onto a Munk-E wagon. Then Yamato throws his vote on Munk-E with this post: Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 00:39 yamato77 wrote:
##Vote: Munk-E
If he posts anything useful at all in the few hours I am sleeping after this post, I will change it, because I really don't like lynching people just because they lurk. However, right now, I have to place a vote just in case I oversleep drastically and he really is the best candidate.
CC and kick still on my scumdar. Jacob, Helo, and Oats are not far from it, either. This is suspicious for a few reasons. First he tries to hedge himself by saying that this isn't his final choice, he is just making it and will change it because he doesn't like lynching lurkers. Well the vote never changes - Yamato says he doesn't like lynching lurkers (which is his only charge against Munk-E in this post) but in the same post says Munk-E is the best candidate (when his only beef is his lurking) and again he just leaves the vote on the lurker. This is someone trying to jump on a wagon without drawing attention to themselves if I've ever seen it. He says "oh this really isn't a great vote and I will change it" but makes the vote anyways and never changes it. It is even worse given that he says he has two other scumreads, because if his only problem with Munk-E was his lurking then why would he jump onto that easy wagon instead of trying to push his actual reads? Here is another post from Yamato when he was under a bit of pressure: Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:19 yamato77 wrote:
Seriously pressure CC to do anything besides tunnel one player. That's all he's done today and tomorrow he may have no plan, if he is scum.
Jacob, equally, has contributed nothing of real value. If he's off playing a video game like he claims (terrible cop-out), then perhaps you guys need to pressure him into making reads that aren't complete fluff like posting a whole paragraph deciphering if I slept the right amount of time in his opinion. His vote on me seems contrived, as does Munk-E's, because neither one cast serious suspicion on me before placing their vote.
MUNK-E IS SCUM. He has lurked the whole game for no good reason. His two serious posts are mostly content-less reasons to sheep his vote on a player already under heat. I see absolutely zero town motivation in his actions at this point. If I get lynched, your day 2 should be DESTROYING him for how terrible he is playing. Again we have the typical accusing others of tunneling and sheeping and all that while not providing much himself, but the interesting thing here is the last paragraph because it just reaffirms what I have been saying. Yamato only brings up two points against Munk-E here, one is that he is lurking and the other is that Munk-E's two posts are content-less cheeping onto players. Well the first is just his excuse for leaving his vote on Munk-E, everyone was already saying Munk-E was lurking so this is just a safe statement - nothing new here. But the second statement is a blatant lie. Look at Munk-E's post on Yamato that I spoilered above and ask yourself if that is a content-less sheeping post. I don't think it is, it is a well reasoned post and all his criticisms of Yamato are valid even up until now, and we know now that Munk-E was town and this leads me to believe that he was being genuine - this was not a sheep. So there is my case on Yamato. I do need to go to class now but I wanted to post this case before night actions because I won't be back until afterwards and wanted to contribute incase I get NKd. So right now Yamato has been promoted to my top scum read followed by Oats.
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I actually just saw that again a few minutes ago. I'll have a proper look at it.
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Reading it right now. It was so long I put it on my things-to-read-later list :p
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Yeah I didn't really expect it to get read until after night time but shit, its been day2 awhile now and no one said much :[
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On November 28 2012 20:48 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Reading it right now. It was so long I put it on my things-to-read-later list :p
I do this far too often lol. I need to find CC's case on oats now as oats didn't include it as a quote.
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On November 25 2012 22:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
OH YES FINALLY, you say why my behaviour is scummy. :D
My explanation is that his first 2 posts seem off. What do you want? Cheesecake posted less than 10 posts, how can you garner any evidence from that?
Just something I came across again. With all this talk of CC being scum because he is casual doesn't it seem like you are trying too hard to be town? the "OH YES FINALLY" part is like oh yay i'm a townie and someone is scum reading me! This is so amazing for no reason ever..... Town should just act like town. I admit I like a little enthusiasm but still.
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So I should not encourage good cases?
His first post was just a commentary so it wasnt any good.
He then followed it up saying that I voted for CC and it cause confusion which is what mafia do. I dont agree but at least he showed a scum motivation for retardly voting for CC which no one else did.
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Oats did that a lot to my posts directed at him, without ever answering any of them so whatever.
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Yo kick maybe I am just tired for some reason but can you reword that?
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On November 28 2012 21:04 Oatsmaster wrote:
So I should not encourage good cases?
His first post was just a commentary so it wasnt any good.
He then followed it up saying that I voted for CC and it cause confusion which is what mafia do. I dont agree but at least he showed a scum motivation for retardly voting for CC which no one else did.
How can it possibly be a good case if you are town? If you are town you should stop acting in a way that allows for a good case on you. If there is a good case on you as town take it into consideration and actually stop doing what the case says. Saying
*start irl simulation* yay good case you got me haha buddy! Lets go to the pub /end irl simulation doesn't seem like the town thing to do (at least not in that manner.)
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He made a lot of those one-liner retarded comments whenever I made a post against him but he never actually talked about any of the points I made.
On November 25 2012 21:32 Oatsmaster wrote:
lol
OMGUS vote me :D
glad you still are a newbie :D
Welcome to the thread by the way
On November 25 2012 22:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
OH YES FINALLY, you say why my behaviour is scummy. :D
My explanation is that his first 2 posts seem off. What do you want? Cheesecake posted less than 10 posts, how can you garner any evidence from that?
On November 25 2012 23:26 Oatsmaster wrote:LOL kickstart learning from the vets huh. there are like 4 pages of content, I challenge you to find a case out of that. A proper case that has scum reasons for certain posts. ok about cheesecake Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 11:06 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Greetings gentlemen!
A few questions to spark ye olde town discussion:
1) How many games have you played on TL?
2) Where do you stand on lurker lynching D1?
3) Pie or Cheesecake?
For me:
1) this is my third, one game as mafia one as VT
2) Lynching a lurker d1 is good to me if no viable scum read presents itself. Also, we have no vig to take care of pesky lurkers otherwise.
3) Pie. Jk jk. This post looks like he is being light-hearted, especially with the Pie and Cheesecake question. I feel that it is an act, the post looks VERY deliberate in being casual. Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 11:55 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 25 2012 11:33 Oatsmaster wrote:
I think that accurate day 1 reads are difficult to make due to the low sample size and if we lynch the lurkers, everyone has to contribute which will help in making more accurate reads. Pretty obvious statement if you ask me. We just need to possess the confidence to scumhunt effectively. There is a 48 hour window between now and lynch time, so there is no reason anyone should be lurking. If we have to lynch a lurker, meh, but I'd much rather have this "small sample size" inflated within D1 so we aren't forced down the coin flip road. Anyone else around? Then here, a reason for people to be lurking is because we havent called them out. He basically says, I will lynch a lurker/anybody. Which is good reason to hop onto any bandwagon that is benefical for scum. Like lynching an inactive town/active but bad town
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On November 28 2012 20:45 Kickstart wrote:Well I did post a rather large case on Yamato right before night ended and it has only gotten responses from Yamato himself (he basically just dismisses it, but that it to be expected since it is against him) and Jacob who thinks it brings up valid points. Anyone else have an opinion on it?: + Show Spoiler +On November 28 2012 07:35 Kickstart wrote:Right so as promised I did some digging into the Munk-E lynch because I felt there would be something there that would help us get some reads on people. After looking at it I have come to the conclusion that Yamato77 is SCUMNow before I get into making my own case I want to show what Munk-E had to say during Day 1 and particularly near lynch time, because at this point in time the only person who we know for 100% is town is Munk-E., so we automatically know that his posts were genuine and had town motivation. Now I will grant that just because Munk-E was town does not necessarily make his reads correct, but I think the fact that he is the only confirmed town at this point gives his reads some extra weight that we cannot yet give to anyone else. Munk-E's strongest read was on Yamato, here are his posts: + Show Spoiler +On November 27 2012 05:51 Munk-E wrote:Right now, I feel Yamato is our best bet. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 23:10 yamato77 wrote:It seems like most people that have posted opinions about me that are negative have done so while quoting or referencing the earliest part of my posts, so I guess I'll explain my thought process behind them. Early on, it became apparent to me, as I believe it did to Oats, that literally everyone was either not online at all or not posting intentionally. Most of my posts were in response to other people. If you'll notice, one of them was in response to CC asking me what I thought of him. I said On November 25 2012 14:53 yamato77 wrote:
I don't really care for your topics of discussion, but that's about it. Perhaps I should have explained then, but I meant that I didn't like the way he entered the thread. His little questionnaire was really, really pointless. It seemed to me at the time something that a mafia player might do to appear to be "starting discussion" without putting anything of real value in the thread. Thus, I limited my posting intentionally as to not really do anything except react to other people and try to get them to give information. Aqua was willing; I asked him his thoughts on me and Cheesecake and he gave them, without any questions. It was then that Cheesecake asked me my opinion of him, and I gave the aforementioned answer. Then he asked me what I thought the discussion should be about, and I told him, I thought us (Aqua and I) talking about whether he was acting suspicious was fine. I called out Oats for calling him scum, which I was not ready to do without more solid evidence, and have not done so yet. My next post received a lot of heat. I posted my ill-timed opinion of Mr. Cheesecake. I was being honest. Nothing looked like worthwhile contribution up to that point, to me. It still doesn't. He says he has contributed, but I don't see anything except a poor read on Helos he backed away from, continually attacking me for voicing my opinion of him, and defending himself. He has posted no other reads on anyone else. I keep saying these same things and they are still true. I want to know what people think of me because I don't want to be surprised by more votes on me like I was with SDM's. I didn't like his voting of me because I didn't think people would honestly give a scum read on me based on my posting up to that point. I suppose I was wrong, which is why I've since become much more forthcoming with my thoughts and motivations. As far as reads on other people. Kickstarter's sheer aggression when defending Cheesecake against Oats is astounding. He uses vulgar language more than once and seems wholly preoccupied with Oats' vote being on CC. He doesn't even care if other people think Oats is scum necessarily, so why did he vote for him? The play doesn't really make sense because all he did was cause a whole lot of uproar over a play that no one else saw as scummy. If anything, THAT seems like a scum play. That being said, Oats is definitely not a town read. None of his posting is particularly forthcoming about his actual motivation. His vote on CC, while initially seeming like a pressure vote, hasn't been justified properly. SDM and Aqua are probably town. They have posted the most real content up to this point and their arguments have been clearly motivated. Helo is a less troll version of Oats. None of his play is backed with clear motivation, but it is not inherently scummy either. If Jacob misspells my name one more time I will lynch him. In seriousness, I think he has posted a lot of fluff and rehashed arguments. I am interested in who he reads as blue, though. I have a blue read too. Munk-E is seriously lackluster. I would vote for him over CC if I made a choice right now. I don't like CC's play but I don't like how little Munk has contributed and how long he has lurked. So to rank my reads from scummiest to least it would go: Munk-E Cheesecake Kickstarter (area of ambiguity) Jacob Helo Oats (/end area of ambiguity) SDM Aqua Me He seems to be against me, CC and kickstarter. I understand his reasoning behind being suspicious of me (despite my opinion of being suspicious of lurkers), however he never made an argument against CC, despite promising to. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 15:56 yamato77 wrote:
I'll make my case against CC when I get home. My early game posts were obviously bad play. I get that now. Since then I think I'm quickly improving. I keep asking because it does no good to be town and get lynched day one for playing like scum.
That being said, I completely understand SDM's vote to me, but I have not changed my opinion on CC. In fact, the only one I see who has made a real case against CC is SDM, and that case was based off of how he played in previous games. I feel basing a scum read on how he played before is really dumb, because he could easily change his style, and in that post he also said that he probably intentionally did that. This just creates a massive WIFOM situation, and thus to me, invalidates the point. This post was also posted in the middle of a minor Kickstarter bandwagon. And while he did make a small case against kickstarter, it was nothing really substantial, and somewhat contradictive. Show nested quote +The play doesn't really make sense because all he did was cause a whole lot of uproar over a play that no one else saw as scummy. If anything, THAT seems like a scum play.
That being said, Oats is definitely not a town read. (Also as a side note, I saw that play as scummy, as I explained before.) This may be to distance himself from oats, who I feel still isn't in the clear, but his entire case on kickstarter was because he went after oats so aggressively, therefore, going and saying he might be scum is contradictory to his entire case. What I noticed most about his only posts that were more than a few lines were hardcore about defending his image. (above and below) Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:55 yamato77 wrote:On November 26 2012 06:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Yes, SDM, I know you pointed this out, but I have to say something. On November 26 2012 05:34 yamato77 wrote:
Mr. Cheesecake is playing without contributing. He's written a lot, but most of it is absolutely useless to a town looking for scum. His policy discussion and talk about other mafia games he's played doesn't help hunt for other players, it seems like more of a defense for himself. Then he calls out two players, myself and Helo, trying to draw attention away from himself. None of this reads town to me, at all. I really do NOT like this kind of post from Yamato. First, he is completely hypocritical because he hasn't contributed two cents to the thread. Secondly, he is answering a question that isn't addressed to him. He randomly pops up when I'm being pressured to cast aspersions on me. Where was he before this? What is his motivation or making such a cavalier, random post? He is entitled to his opinion, but his convenient timing and content reads inherently scummy to me. My motivation is to give my read on someone who is playing suspiciously since his first post. Where was I before that? Asleep. A bunch of your argument to me is simply fallacy. Me being hypocritical (whether true or not) has nothing to do with your contributions to the thread. My timing and content is scummy? Of course I want to voice my opinion on someone who is being cast into the spotlight. What am I supposed to do? Ignore it? You didn't even answer my accusations, you just spun around and attacked me. At least SDM's post against mine had some quality. On November 26 2012 06:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
I don't like this reaction. Sure, you can argue he hasn't contributed much, but at least he's been somewhat enganged in the thread unlike a lot of others.
Aside from that, the reason he talked about his old games was because I asked him, him answering is appreciated. Him calling out you and Helo can easily have town motivations. Obviously town wants to call out what he considers suspicious bahaviour.
You end up saying nothing reads town, but the more important question is: does it read scum, and why?
Other than that your one-liners are really not contributing much and kind of stay-under-the-radar like.
FOS Yamato I don't think my posting at the beginning should be taken as alignment indicative. It was prodding, mostly. I'm on the fence about Mr. Cheesecake. His posting is still mostly defending himself, and attacking two players who posted early, me and Helo. That kind of behavior doesn't really indicate alignment, but if he keeps coming after me with posts that don't even address my concerns about him, I'm going to vote for him. Most of what I've posted so far has been to get a reaction, and it has worked. How people answer questions and accusations are definitely tells. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 12:38 yamato77 wrote:
SDM's vote on me is based on information from a single post basically, which does not bode well for my opinion of him. Honestly if I am your top scumread because of a bunch of one-liners and a post where I give my negative opinion on someone you read as scum, you are doing something wrong.
CC's vote on me looks like scum trying to deflect attention onto a player receiving negative heat. Also, it would eliminate someone he sees as a threat, if he was scum, in that I haven't liked his play since the start of the game.
I'm tempted to vote Cheesecake with you, if your vote is actually serious. However, if I get lynched today, I would 100% go after CC and SDM tomorrow because of the way they have parked their votes on me. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:26 yamato77 wrote:
You want my opinion on Oats? He is probably just a bored townie early on because him giving some silly read is just to spark discussion on something. As he keeps going on, a lot of his posting is in reaction to you and accusations against him, which is entirely logical given that until you guys FoS'd me, that was the only discussion. Nothing there reads either way, in particular.
SDM's post was "a little jab"? Dude voted for you. If I'm interested in his reasons, which I was, and I have my own reasons, which I did, I would voice them. Again, am I supposed to just stay silent and let you lynch me for saying nothing?
I definitely said I didn't like your topics of discussion in my first few posts. They are fluff, which I don't care for. I didn't react to them because that is adding to the fluff. If that is how people think we should start threads, I disagree. It doesn't provide any information at all. What Oats did was more productive, in my opinion, but hardly alignment indicative.
Also, I'm definitely interested to see if SDM still thinks my play is scummy after these two posts. And how about the rest of you lurkers? Do I look scummy to you? Yes Yamato, yes you doNow I shouldn't need to tell you why I'm suspicious of someone who's only real content is making cases for why he's innocent. He also voted for me after both helo and SDM, but i'll let it slide because I was at the top of suscpicion list. Nonetheless, he seems most concerned about defending himself, and explaining his actions, and that certainly seems more scummy than anyone else so far to me, and while I wish I had longer to decide, he certainly looks the worst to me, so therefore ##Vote: yamato77(p.s. before anyone says it, I didn't just make this post because he was voting for me, I understand that's just pressure.) and + Show Spoiler +On November 27 2012 11:26 Munk-E wrote:
Alright,i hate having to defend myself, but i guess it's necessary so you don't waste a vote. No one has made a real case against me. The only real argument against me that everyone claims is that I'm lurking, and that i voted to save myself. As for the lurking, the point of accusing lurkers is to get them to talk. In theory, the more they say the easier they are to read, of they're mafia, they might say too much and give a tell. This point is null though, because it brings suspicion to lurkers. Besides, you got what you want from me, I'm talking more. As for the voting solely to save myself, it's not true. Yamato still is the scummiest player here, doing minimal scum hunting and over reacting every time someone accuses him of something. Someone accused me of being sheepish, because i said i wasn't 100% sure. I guess that was a wrong thing to say, even though that's how the game works. You never are positive about a role unless you are detective, which wouldn't work because it's day one, or mafia. You just go with your best guess.
The point is there isn't a case against me, just a band wagon. Honestly, there are so many of you that voted for me with no or minimal justification, especially those who only recently jumped on the bandwagon. Now to sum up Munk-E's points against Yamato (but you should still read the posts I quoted because I think Munk-E actually did a good job in making his case, and again knowing that Munk-E was town makes his rather well thought out case against Yamato even more compelling) he accuses Yamato of content less posting, not making any scum reads himself while getting on others for doing the same thing, and of only defending himself. All of these charges are true and they hold up all through Yamato's filter. Now I cant copy and paste his entire filter but I encourage you to go look at it and you will see that Yamato has the largest filter of anyone in the game (about 5 pages), but it entirely composed of, one liners, summation posts (just a summary of events thus far), defense of himself, and bad/easy cases (his only real cases have been against cheese, both times they are bad and use points that have already been made by someone else). Now that is a huge pattern of posting - he has had more posts than anyone else and with the longest filter he has managed to offer nearly nothing in the way of looking for scum. Now all this so far is bad for Yamato and on its own would make a good case against him and is good enough reason to vote for him because it is all very scummy. But looking at the Munk-E lynch I found something even more damning. I looked at the progression of votes that went onto Munk-E and tried to see which ones were suspicious. The first vote on Munk-E is from HeloKnight and the second is from SDM. Now Helo is the first to make a move on Munk-E and does it because Munk-E is lurking and the only post Munk-E did make was a sheep onto Oats - both valid points at the time. Now SDMs vote onto Munk-E is for lurking aswell, but at least SDM is hesitant with the vote, but still gives solid reasons for it other than the ones Helo gave and doesn't seem to be jumping onto a Munk-E wagon. Then Yamato throws his vote on Munk-E with this post: Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 00:39 yamato77 wrote:
##Vote: Munk-E
If he posts anything useful at all in the few hours I am sleeping after this post, I will change it, because I really don't like lynching people just because they lurk. However, right now, I have to place a vote just in case I oversleep drastically and he really is the best candidate.
CC and kick still on my scumdar. Jacob, Helo, and Oats are not far from it, either. This is suspicious for a few reasons. First he tries to hedge himself by saying that this isn't his final choice, he is just making it and will change it because he doesn't like lynching lurkers. Well the vote never changes - Yamato says he doesn't like lynching lurkers (which is his only charge against Munk-E in this post) but in the same post says Munk-E is the best candidate (when his only beef is his lurking) and again he just leaves the vote on the lurker. This is someone trying to jump on a wagon without drawing attention to themselves if I've ever seen it. He says "oh this really isn't a great vote and I will change it" but makes the vote anyways and never changes it. It is even worse given that he says he has two other scumreads, because if his only problem with Munk-E was his lurking then why would he jump onto that easy wagon instead of trying to push his actual reads? Here is another post from Yamato when he was under a bit of pressure: Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:19 yamato77 wrote:
Seriously pressure CC to do anything besides tunnel one player. That's all he's done today and tomorrow he may have no plan, if he is scum.
Jacob, equally, has contributed nothing of real value. If he's off playing a video game like he claims (terrible cop-out), then perhaps you guys need to pressure him into making reads that aren't complete fluff like posting a whole paragraph deciphering if I slept the right amount of time in his opinion. His vote on me seems contrived, as does Munk-E's, because neither one cast serious suspicion on me before placing their vote.
MUNK-E IS SCUM. He has lurked the whole game for no good reason. His two serious posts are mostly content-less reasons to sheep his vote on a player already under heat. I see absolutely zero town motivation in his actions at this point. If I get lynched, your day 2 should be DESTROYING him for how terrible he is playing. Again we have the typical accusing others of tunneling and sheeping and all that while not providing much himself, but the interesting thing here is the last paragraph because it just reaffirms what I have been saying. Yamato only brings up two points against Munk-E here, one is that he is lurking and the other is that Munk-E's two posts are content-less cheeping onto players. Well the first is just his excuse for leaving his vote on Munk-E, everyone was already saying Munk-E was lurking so this is just a safe statement - nothing new here. But the second statement is a blatant lie. Look at Munk-E's post on Yamato that I spoilered above and ask yourself if that is a content-less sheeping post. I don't think it is, it is a well reasoned post and all his criticisms of Yamato are valid even up until now, and we know now that Munk-E was town and this leads me to believe that he was being genuine - this was not a sheep. So there is my case on Yamato. I do need to go to class now but I wanted to post this case before night actions because I won't be back until afterwards and wanted to contribute incase I get NKd. So right now Yamato has been promoted to my top scum read followed by Oats.
I like the case quite a bit. I won't have time to comment on it in detail because I need to go soon, but it looks like solid scum hunting. It's weird calling out Munk-E for blatant sheeping when in fact he was making quite long case. I will say that to some expect it's expected that the two wagons will go after eachother regardless of alignment though.
I'm starting to feel I let Yamato off the hook a bit too easy during N1. Much like CC I was reacting like "oh look at this poor guy" when he started defended himself. It came off as quite genuine to me. That made me drop all the reasons I had suspected him to begin with. That doesn't make much sense. Also, one reason I've started reevaluate the situation was my realization that Oats is scummy as hell. I know this is an association and I don't really like thinking in those terms generally, but his just clicked for me:
On November 28 2012 09:27 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:The only reasonable reason I can see for Oats' spazztastic change of mind wrt CC is if Oats is scum and Yamato is his scum buddy. When the momentum of the Yamato wagon is gathering, Oats pops in with this post, declaring "I've seen the light! Munk-E and Kick are scum!". Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Ok based on what I have read, Kickstart and Munke are scum, kickstart used a lousy case to justify lynching the most lynchable target. I say we vote kickstart today
[b]##Unvote
##Vote: Kickstart Without any reasoning of course. Go check that section out for yourself. Oats put his vote on Kick at the same time CC set his scum trap for Yamato. What's even more weird is that at the point Oats votes for Kick, CC had just voted for Kick. Not only does Oats abandon his scum read CC, he immediate sheeps him. Meh, now I'm really done for the day.
Will have to read Yamatos filter in its entirety, but that'll have to wait for a few hours.
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I also definitely approve of the existence of the Yamato case - it's clear you've put some thought into it and that's what I've been looking for. I reckon I need to sleep on it to decide what difference it's going to make to my previous Yamato read (namely: without any real town credit, but no more scummy than, say, Helo.)
Thought-out stuff like this is what I'd really like to see from Oatsmaster and most of the players in the States.
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You mean a yamato oats association case? Yet me check my notes... Hmm not a single note of interaction that caught my eye. Either they are avoiding each other or... my notes are limited.....
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Or I really didnt interact with yamato.. like I didnt react to helo until I made my top scum read post. Like I didnt interact with aqua until recently
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On November 28 2012 22:43 Oatsmaster wrote:
Or I really didnt interact with yamato.. like I didnt react to helo until I made my top scum read post. Like I didnt interact with aqua until recently
Are you defending yourself from an association case?
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Why not?
You implied that yamato is my scum partner, but fail to mention that aqua or helo could also be my partner based on your criteria of mafia partners..
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EPT
