EPTit's mini tiiime all the way!
Mario Mini Mafia
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strongandbig
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it's mini tiiime all the way! | ||
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On November 12 2012 16:27 Djodref wrote: Guys, y u no join cold war africa mafia ? /replacement I'll be following this game for sure but I'm not taking the obs QT just in case I get a chance to replace ^^ I am also /in for cold war mafia and if it starts before this one finishes I am totally up to playing two at once but i needs mah mafia fix also minis with marv who can resist? | ||
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On November 12 2012 21:17 syllogism wrote: /replacement this is why wbg's "not-first-come-first-served" system is better i would like to play in a mini with syllogism | ||
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On November 12 2012 21:51 marvellosity wrote: Yeah, I need ma flips. DP, NMM3 was an all-vanilla game basically. Actually scum had rber/framer, but all townies were VTs, so those roles were pointless. igrok's Sword Girls mini mafia (I think it was called "iGrok's good clean old-fashioned mafia'') was a really good example of this kind of game - open setup with only VT and goons, plus what he called a "crazed fiend" which was a bulletproof sort-of-SK with only one bullet. e: what I mean by "a really good example" was that it was an invite game which included several of the best players on TL mafia | ||
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##vote: hapahauli im down with that iamperfection thinkamajig | ||
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but now if i did that people would be like "two millers what are the odds" and then probably lynch you so no good on that one | ||
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you know it | ||
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On November 13 2012 10:01 debears wrote: Hapa, last time you did that little spoiler trick (GsL III), you were the role that you put in the spoiler. Here, you put bowser. Now why would you put bowser out of all the scum roles? It seems to me like you were actively thinking of bowser, which you shouldn't be if you are town. I would expect you to put a town role in that spoiler this is stupid | ||
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that "lol" was when I was reading the thread and ppl were like "omg vote him he claimed vt" and then I was like, wtf are they talking about when did I claim vt? and then I was like, "oh." yeah so, oops? | ||
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kenpachi rule ##unvote: hapahauli ##vote: debears actually srs this time btw | ||
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well, I guess I did, but it wasn't on purpose | ||
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its ruined if you tell him what it is | ||
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that doesn't even make sense, he can't be a town all by himself srsly lets dooooo eeeeeeet | ||
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kiiiiill some scuuuuuuuums doods | ||
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On November 13 2012 11:02 Hapahauli wrote: Because it's strange. He was far too willing to dismiss the argument of someone who was taking his side on an issue. He didn't attempt to explain anything about his reads in that post. lol i didnt attempt to explain anything about my reads in a post that consisted entirely of "this is stupid" am i explaining my reads in this post bro? | ||
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On November 13 2012 11:04 Clarity_nl wrote: Where do you currently live? Could you change your profile to that? u got it | ||
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On November 13 2012 11:03 marvellosity wrote: not a lot worth sharing. I think the s&b wagon is a bit silly, but s&b's last two posts are a little too... try-hard for my liking. "look how casual i am guise!!!!" lol marv it's all because you said on irc that i'm more composed when i'm scum i'm upping my game son + Show Spoiler + wifomwifomwifomwifomwifom | ||
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debears is scum tho in other developments: seriously, I wasn't really thinking too hard about what I posted last night. Believe me or not, I didn't intend to "claim VT" when I made the post in question. I'm going in to work in a couple hours, I'll read over the thread more carefully. However, here's my unfiltered thoughts atm marv: i hate trying to read marv, apparently someone caught him on meta analysis a game or two ago so I'll have to look that up but it's so much easier just radfielding him bh: thinks i'm town therefore my first reaction is to think he's town lol. i like his case on zboson though. hapa: scummiest of the actual good players in the thread atm more reading time | ||
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On November 13 2012 21:56 marvellosity wrote: I think this whole case is pretty bad actually. 1. You're introducing the word meta for no reason, and in a horrible way. While Z-Bo's point may be bad, comparing stuff and attitudes to things within game is perfectly valid and calling it bullshit meta is just total nonsense. 2. It's just you not reading. Z-Bo said "implying", not "appearing" or "saying". He's right, scum do like to *imply* they are town, and I understand the perspective of "oh, s&b "accidentally" claimed VT, of course he did, har har har". I don't see why your more correct explanation has to be more correct at all. Also, why are you attacking Z-Bo for the manner in which he's voted when there's a raft of players who have done similar things? (debears, s&b, hapa, DARTHPUNK (voted twice with no explanation), and probably a couple others too) ah but my first vote was stupid on purpose, whereas zboson's vote was serious (i think) you're right about the meta stuff in bh's case, it's terrible but he's more right about zbosons two shitty cases and the lack of attribution of a scum motive | ||
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On November 13 2012 22:02 marvellosity wrote: s&b, I'm going to want something else than you pushing the Kenpachi rule, using that as an excuse going forward for not building a case (even if it is on debears) is unacceptable. lol k tbh that's the only responsible position you can take man I don't want to have to start taking this seriously yet playing like palmar is so much more fun remind me to persuade everyone i'm a mafia genius so they let me do shit like this | ||
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i just don't like explaining it because once you explain it it stops working.... T_T | ||
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On November 13 2012 22:20 marvellosity wrote: the thing is, s&b, when you first mentioned it I went and re-read over that portion of the game, and honestly debears didn't even really attack you for it particularly, he only really mentioned it, and indeed subsequent posts he was replying to other things. So this would be an extremely weak instance of it at best in any case. Au contraire - I contend that he must have had a very "claim-talk-about-ey" mindset to even see that as a claim in the first place, because it wasn't obvious that it was a claim. That mindset is exactly what the kenpachi rule is supposed to ferret out. | ||
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maybe I was just being even stupider last night than I thought I'll try to make up for it :p | ||
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On November 14 2012 02:41 iamperfection wrote: I changed my mind deal with it bro. When I get home I might do it again. does that make me scum? If so continue if not don't waste my time iamperfection is lazy as fuck, he's like mattchew in being both terrible and lazy but at the moment hapa's case is super unpersuasive to me | ||
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On November 14 2012 03:04 Blazinghand wrote: this kind of hostage-taking isnt cool dude. if you don't call me a cool dude I'll eat your hat | ||
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On November 14 2012 03:27 debears wrote: ....... Ok reasoning to switch from insta town read to scum read.... When I get back to my comp I will relook at it. I didnt come to the same conclusion but look at the reasoning for his town read, it was also terrible. it was a visceral (no eyes) reaction, the first thing to come out of his gut, just like "oh i guess zboson is town" was the first thing to come out of my gut when he posted it. So he changes from a weak, gut-reaction-based townread to a scum read. It's not like he was hard defending zboson or even really thinking about it in a way that we should be super concerned about, he was just pooping ideas out onto the thread. | ||
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On November 14 2012 01:01 Blazinghand wrote: Marv uf you think Im scum vote me if nog stop beig a babu and vot ZB oh yeah I meant to quote this post that's some great logic right there - vote for me or vote with me. normally i'd find that super scummy but coming from bh it's only mildly scummy | ||
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On November 13 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote: Honestly I think it's bad to tie yourself down with ideas like that. If someone's playing scummy, they're playing scummy. My scum play isn't amazing, but due to my extreme sex appeal and enormous intelligence and penis, I can assure you that it's improved a great deal. Mostly it's due to my large penis-- it is quite a monstrosity. It works as a pad, even. Back on topic, don't feel like you can't vote or push people because of possible contributions. This kind of play is lazy and puts preconceived notions of what certain players are worth ahead of behavioral analysis. Someone voting for me because they legitimately think I'm scum and they have the cojones to do it is infinitely more helpful to town than someone not voting me because I'm a sexy baller. That being said, iamperfection's vote is pretty typical iamperfection throwing his vote around trying to pressure people but not doing it effectively. He needs to realize that you should vote people when you want to lynch them, or else you won't be taken seriously. the grammar and sentence construction of this post feel too composed to me given its content. somebody remind me who am I voting for right now? | ||
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On November 14 2012 02:31 Hapahauli wrote: Catching up on my lunch break. Regarding SnB ##Unvote After sleeping on it, I'm starting to agree that his play is too far of a deviation from his normal scum play to be scummy. I don't know what he's thinking, but it's much more reckless of a playstyle than I'd expect of scum SnB. (FWIW, the fact that he's continuing this behavior into today makes me think he's an SK or something. It falls into that "townie but really off" type of play that's common with 3rd party roles.) I still believe both situations to be the same - they are both strangely timed VT claims. Cheese's intent to "signal" other townies isn't a significant difference, as both potentially fall into the category of "scum wanting to look less suspicious despite not being suspicious." The situations are not identical by any means, but they're more similar than not. Regardless, I'm not suspicious of SnB anymore so I don't want to dwell on this. Regarding the Z-Boson Case I really disagree with it. The case is a giant anecdote for how Z-Boson's actions could be scummy rather than why they're scummy. All of this isn't valid at all hours into D1. All of the stuff described above is completely non-alignment indicative in the early game. Z-Boson has been less active than I'm used to seeing him, but again early D1 caveats. No reason to vote him. Regarding iamperfection His sudden flip-flop on Z-Boson is really strange. He goes from strongly trusting Z-Bo's claim early in the game to a vote for really shitty reasons. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=22#434 In his vote post, he first picks a fight with BH - odd considering that he's ultimately going to agree with his read. He puts a lot of stock into one of Z-Bo's early D1 postings and early-game banter (meaningless). He then talks about the "iamperfection rule" and another early D1 wishy-washy post. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't for his discussion about the miller claim: WHAT?!?!? Iamperfection had almost no doubt about Z-Bo's motives, and he's willing to do a complete 180 with the above reasoning. Just take a look at his previous stance, made right after Z-Bo's claim: He immediately trusted Z-Boson without question the second Z-Bo made that claim. Then all of a sudden now he turns around and can doubt the claim he so strongly believed in earlier. It makes no sense to me, and it looks like scum jumping on someone the second they have the reason to. This would be fine if he had a good case, but he just hinges on a couple of early D1 posts and the "iamperfection" rule as opposed to anything substantial. It doesn't help that the rest of his filter reads really artificially confrontational to me. It feels like he's trying to overcompensate for being caught in GSL III for not showing his "bravado" throughout the game. ##Vote iamperfection this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above | ||
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On November 14 2012 01:03 Z-BosoN wrote: It seems to me people are thinking too much of my posts, expecting some sort of brilliant day one cases. Disagreeing with my logic does not make me scum. That should pretty much handle the vast chunk of shit I got the last few pages. There are, however, some things I'd like to point out during these last events, though: First thing to note is how uncharacteristically bad BH's case is against me. He's basically saying I'm bullshitting with every post I make. While I agree my posts are not the bestest they can be, I'm not sure why that implies I'm scum. He says this one thing in particular though: Note two things. 1) He's saying I'm setting up to look good as a wagon starter. you're misinterpreting it, i think he's saying you're setting up to start a wagon without looking bad later because you started a wagon on a townie. This is balls-to-the wall dumb. How am I a wagon starter just for having the first vote? Also, as he himself noted, I did not write a full essay regarding why I think SnB is scum. I voted for him for implying that he is town, and that's basically it. If I wanted to become a "wagon starter", that's obviously the exact opposite of what I should do, I would make a much more elaborate case. Ironically, I could say the same about BH and his case on me, and with much more validity, as he actually goes deep in his case on me, and seems somehow certain of my alignment, something which he leaves very clear later on: Now, I'm not scum, so in my pov he is pretty much full of shit with this remark. There's a difference between bad logic, the thing he is calling me on bullshitting, and actual bullshitting, which is what this "wagon starting" remark actually is. 2) He's saying my filter is short, and it's clear I'm not helping. Again, completely ironic and hypocritical. this is true. not sure being hypocritical is a scum tell coming from bh. probably is but only a small one? He has only three completely useless posts up until this one: The second paragraph is completely fluffy, he's not actually saying anything. agree That being said, I would like everyone to pay attention to the bolded on the third paragraph. He heavily, heavily thrashes me for being weak on my vote on SnB. Let's ignore all the others, especially DP (who voted TWICE on SnB, without saying anything). Let's focus on what he says here on iamp - and this is important. He says that iamp is throwing his vote around to pressure people, and that's all A-ok. so this is true but you and iamp have a very different character as players Now pause and think here. I'll quote what he said about that on me for clarity: and Now contrast that to what he said about iamp's voting. On iamp, he is completely casual regarding his voting. On his case on me, however, he's aggressive and incisive , as you can clearly tell from the quotes I posted above. Why does this make him scummy? Because it shows clear signs of fabrication, as one can easily infer from the quotes above. His views on "casual voting" are in complete contrast. One more thing, that I ignored earlier. If he feels so strongly about me voting SnB without giving any reasoning or thoughts, why isn't he going after DP, who's actually done that not once, but TWICE?? Townie Motivation: none. Scum motivation: he feels threatened that I have claimed miller and people are not showing signs of doubt on my claim. tl;dr 1) Blazinghand's case on me is uncharacteristically bad. i haven't decided whether I agree with this or not. It's also not consistent with his townie play on Liquid City. Look at his progression on Shiaopi, who was incidentally also making uncharacteristically bad cases as well. 2) Blazinghand is being supremely inconsistent, contradictory and hypocritical of what he defines as scum-motivated and what not, showing signs of someone who is merely fabricating cases, as detailed above. I tried to be as clear as possible here, because I don't want people to feel like this is just OMGUS. My votes on SnB and debears were more pressure votes, as if that wasn't pretty much clear. This one on blazinghand, is not. I think he's the best lynch so far, as everything I've stated seem to point on him being scum. ##Unvote ##Vote Blazinghand idk overall i feel kind of suspicious of bh right now, but it isn't because he's being 'hypocritical', it's just because his play this game has a different feel to it than last time - like, last time he was making a bajillion cases and yelling at everyone and it was pretty obvy he was town. that said, i was scum last time and knew he was town, so maybe it felt different to me. | ||
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bro | ||
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On November 14 2012 04:54 iamperfection wrote: also fuck you *Looks at your play in gsl II as town *Looks at mattchews play in liquid city as town *Looks at iamperfections play in liquid city as town yeah im the lazy one out of those three stfu. gsl 2 doesnt count thats the one where i got mislynched for not having enough time to play while i was on vacation with my family i mean yeah i was lazy there but whatever also i mean like "intellectually lazy", as in "not bothering to explain yourself very much." | ||
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what just happened | ||
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one he was SK, two scum team had weird communication restrictions, one was idiot cop mafia | ||
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On November 14 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: i'm starting to ponder debears also keeeeeeen paaaaaaa chiiiiiiiiii ruuuuuuuule debears is scum | ||
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On November 14 2012 11:21 Hapahauli wrote: Easy on the claim stuff guys - it's pointless to argue about something that already happened unless you actually think BH's claim is scummy - and it's too suicidal to be scummy IMO. He could be scum, but it's pretty unlikely. BH - can I get your thoughts on Debears? lol hapa this post almost persuaded me to vote for BH | ||
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On November 14 2012 11:21 thrawn2112 wrote: I wanna lynch darthpunk. I remember his town play as somewhat aggressive and stubborn, and what I'm seeing from him in this game is completely different from that impression. I still think the whole snb 4 votes early on thing was a little silly and probably had scum behind it. I can get behind this part (bolding by me) You unvoted snb, who you originally voted for because of a dumb reason, in order to vote for clarity who had voted for snb because of a dumb reason? man though when will people start to realize - "you were inconsistent" is not sufficient to establish that someone is scum. You either have to show that their inconsistency has a scum motivation or you have to show that from a particular player, being inconsistent is a scum tell based on their meta. Townies change their mind too! Just saying "scum like to be inconsistent" is not sufficient! Scum motivations for being inconsistent are things like (-) going along with whatever the thread sentiment is at the time (-) buddying whoever has thread control (-) appearing to contribute without having to take strong positions (-) switching off of scum buddies or onto strong townies when a bandwagon goes further than they expected You can't just say "lol an inconsistency! Scum!" You have to do quite a bit more work than that. Specifically, this is what i'm talking about with dp's tone. This... ...is not what I expect from dp. I expect him to be argumentative and to challenge anyone who accuses him of being wrong. I don't like his votes/unvotes for snb or the explanations for the votes. His last voting action was an unvote, and the next 8 posts contain mainly fluff and jokes, not much information that's pertinent to the thread. this is better - at least it's actually a real argument for him being scum. It's fundamentally a meta case, and therefore it would be better with quotes from other games by darthpunk or at least a guide for what other people should look for in his filter in specific games of his, but darthpunk is usually kind of a character so the case is easier to make here. Summary: He took the easy vote on snb and was wishy washy about it (voting then unvoting then voting then unvoting) because he knows the vote looks bad. After voting the first time, he unvoted then challenged clarity for doing the exact same thing that dp himself did (hasty bandwagon voting for snb) and then he unvoted for a final time and his filter after that point contains no scumhunting or any of his reads/thoughts. ##Vote: Darthpunk The other people that voted for snb during that time were hapa, clarity, and boson. With boson... the miller claim didn't seem to come at the right time to be a scum fakeclaim. I'd expect fake claims to come along much later after everyone has been given a chance to post/claim. Hapa, I'm wary of. BH made a comment along the lines of "whoever voted for snb is bad or scum," and hapa is definitely not bad. But he as well as clarity continued giving reads and interacting with the thread after the snb stuff, while dp has been wishywashy with his vote and not talked about much of anything else. The snb bandwagon grew so quickly that I think it's very likely that there were scum behind it, and dp looks scummiest out of all of them. There was his original voting/unvoting, not following through with any reads afterwards and having a fluffy filter, and being extremely peaceful and not willing to get in fights. That's the exact opposite of town dp. Bolding by me - these are the central points of this case. | ||
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On November 14 2012 11:22 marvellosity wrote: my rage is perfectly coherent. what's even more infuriating is that you don't understand why you are bad. any sensible townie would argue his way out of his lynch (3 votes, cmon) and only if necessary, a few hours from deadline, claim if he could absolutely not avoid getting lynched. Jailkeeper is a very strong role and now you've made it so it cannot protect anybody, plus a confirmed bluesnipe on you, if you are town. Which I'm not even convinced of yet, I just can't bring myself to lynch the claim day 1. Marv come the fuck on. blazinghand obviously knows this. He had such a good time trolling keirathi in Whose Line before that game's premature end, that he wants to keep it up now. I will give 2:1 hat-eating odds that blazinghand's claim is fake. idk whether that makes him scum or town, but I'm inclined to think scum. | ||
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On November 14 2012 11:35 marvellosity wrote: thrawn dear, where indeed have you been? The problem is, thrawn, is that my meta read on DarthPunk is the diametric opposite to yours. hmm apparently both marv and bh disagree with me for agreeing that dp is usually more aggressive and in-your-face and not-wishy-washy than he is in this game. I'm pretty sure that at least one of marv and bh is town, if they were both scum BH wouldn't have claimed like that. I'll have to think a little bit or reread some darthpunk history if I really want to vote for him I guess. | ||
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On November 14 2012 11:59 DarthPunk wrote: That game is one of the specific ones I'm thinking of in regards to dp's town play. He stays on his targets till he gets a flip, he is sorta.. aggressive.. with his language, especially when people are disagreeing with him. This game he's made extremely questionable votes while not pushing his reads. Town dp reads as the most convicted guy ever and that's not what i'm seeing this game. The reason I don't sound convicted is that I literally have no convictions whatsoever right now. I am barely keeping up with the game. I am spending obscene amounts of time reading filters in my other game. Once I have some clue as to the state of the game. I will be busting peoples balls and generally aggressive as per usual. Do you think as scum I couldn't fake some contributions by now? and get all up in your faces about it. The reason I am not is because I care about being right and I have not put enough thought nor analysed enough information to be right about much at all. My strongest read so far was a town read on BH when he was under pressure. But then he claimed JK so I didn;t need to defend him as I was planning to. Like. What you are saying is reasonable. But playing twow games is kicking my arse and I just don;t have the time to play as well as I would like to. Lynching me is a mislynch. [/QUOTE] meh this is a decent explanation for the meta mismatch. Thrawn, still read what I said about your case. Part of it was decent and quite well-written, part of it was stupid. | ||
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On November 14 2012 22:51 strongandbig wrote: meh this is a decent explanation for the meta mismatch. Thrawn, still read what I said about your case. Part of it was decent and quite well-written, part of it was stupid. a hearty fuck to whoever screwed up the quote tags in that chain, it's not hard >  | ||
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On November 14 2012 12:31 thrawn2112 wrote: You're fine with flipping either of two vets? I'm not comfortable lynching either bh marv or hapa on D1 unless there's some huge scumslip. QQ why do I suck i've been playing longer than hapa and exactly as long as marv plus i just had one of my best games ever T_T i just need to stop spending half my games tunneling drazerk ;P | ||
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On November 14 2012 14:46 debears wrote: On iamp Alright guys, I really need someone to give me a good answer on this question, which everyone has failed to do Why would town iamp 1) Switch his vote, agreeing with the case of someone he thought was scummy 30 minutes earlier after 1 case? you idiot I already explained this TL uses military time it was 12 hours and 30 minutes | ||
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On November 14 2012 12:39 Blazinghand wrote: anyone who would lynch a claimed blue D1 has serious issues that sir is what's called "pushing your luck" On November 14 2012 13:31 Blazinghand wrote: Thrawn is more right than he's wrong. More stalling, excuses, and mentioning other games in progress from DP. ##unvote ##vote: Darthpunk BH posted this after reading exactly the same explanation from DP that I read, and exactly the same comments on DP's meta from marv as I read, and doing exactly the same amount of work looking into DP's actual scum/town meta as I did (none) - and yet he comes up with a vote? Without at all addressing the points from Marv and from himself about DP's meta? And without addressing the other game in progress issue - which isn't an "unverifiable irl excuse," we can go look at the thread - and yet he comes up with a vote? guys what we have out of BH is not just a scummy and needless claim - we have a scummy and needless claim from a player who isn't playing up to his usual town standard in several ways - bad cases - trolling/fluff while taking the easy opportunity to gain points by attacking other people for fluff and most importantly - the huge mismatch in thread presence, thread control, and town organization between BH's last town game (whose line) and this game And then we have On November 14 2012 12:39 Blazinghand wrote: anyone who would lynch a claimed blue D1 has serious issues BH psychology: he just saw me do well - not win, except for self-declaring victory, but do much better than I should have given how the game started out - he saw me do well by fakeclaiming blue and then really pushing that fakeclaim hard. He also just had what I assume must be a trollgasm from evoking ridiculous reactions from Keirathi in that same game. Now he's claimed blue for no good reason, and it's a blue role that he can "verify" easily by withholding KP, or that he can make unverifiable by claiming to be roleblocked. There's no way a town BH decides "there are 3 or 4 votes on me, like 30 hours before the lynch - time to claim!" I just don't believe that thought process is real. ##vote: blazinghand | ||
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On November 14 2012 22:57 strongandbig wrote: you idiot I already explained this TL uses military time it was 12 hours and 30 minutes sorry debears that was a little harsh. I should have said "lol didn't read" or "fool!" instead of "you idiot." | ||
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still think he's scum and would possibly be willing to consolidate on him if we need to consolidate but bh is just shouting "hey i'm scummy" at me ##unvote ##vote: blazinghand | ||
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marv do you honestly believe bh was really being that dumb? Like, do you think he is telling the truth about why and how he claimed? | ||
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I have yet to see why this is true. I addressed in this post why BH specifically would make this fakeclaim as scum right now. To summarize, it's a combination of reasons: he really enjoys trolling, and he knows how good of an idea making an unverifiable fakeclaim is as scum under pressure in the current TL meta. your argument "if he's alive in a few days" is terrible. if, in theory, he was town, there would be no reason for scum to kill him above anyone else; they could just roleblock him forever now that he's claimed, and he's taking enough heat that town doesn't get any kind of "confirmed townie" advantage from having him alive. all that said, debears is still my second lynch choice. I guess I should say more about him than "kenpachi rule", but I won't right now because I don't have time. | ||
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On November 15 2012 03:16 marvellosity wrote: There are some reasons not to lynch BH today. In any setup with 3+ blues, scum will have a roleblocker. If BH is lying, scum will have to withold all of their roleblocks. This makes the claim inherently a poor scum play. There may yet be another Jailkeeper (or perhaps, the only jailkeeper) who doesn't want to claim, but can 'prove' their existence when a roleblock appears tonight (hopefully on me, yo  ). Or 2 jailkeepers is possible (although it would require JJJ which is pretty unlikely).I've seen a fucking appalling day 1 jailkeeper claim before on a day 1. VE did it in... er... LIII? The claim made no sense, and it was fucking stupid. We lynched him. He flipped jailkeeper. So... ugh. yeah but that's kind of VE's "thing" | ||
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##vote: debears | ||
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i think he's more likely to be scum than hopeless is | ||
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On November 15 2012 07:06 Clarity_nl wrote: Does this mean you agree that BH is a bad lynch now, or you simply realized he won't get lynched today? the latter i do not agree that bh is a bad lynch now among other reasons, if we just say "we won't lynch claimed blues on day 1" then it becomes optimal play for everyone who would be otherwise lynched to just claim a blue role | ||
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On November 13 2012 09:46 debears wrote: Eh. If it's down to lylo we'll need to take a strong look at it if he's alive. Other than that, nothing much to talk about with the claim On November 13 2012 10:01 debears wrote: Hapa, last time you did that little spoiler trick (GsL III), you were the role that you put in the spoiler. Here, you put bowser. Now why would you put bowser out of all the scum roles? It seems to me like you were actively thinking of bowser, which you shouldn't be if you are town. I would expect you to put a town role in that spoiler On November 13 2012 10:12 debears wrote: Why would someone claim vt like that so early? It's quite weird On November 13 2012 10:44 debears wrote: What do you guys think of Clarity's early play? It's very similar to his scum play imo. Saying neutral stuff. Then, the vote on S&B. He's coming in and out of the thread, ie active lurking so i scrolled through dabears filter there's just a whole lot of meaningless junk there, and some really terrible posts but why is everyone voting for hopeless? let me read his filter as well | ||
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there's so much terrible in this game | ||
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On November 15 2012 08:18 marvellosity wrote: debears is right, by the way. Some of Hapa's pushing on him is fucking nonsense. this is true like all that stuff about "not voting your top scumread" that's only important when votes actually matter, i don't get this obsession people have with who voted who for what reason during the first six hours of the day | ||
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the first half of it is mega terrible like, there's a bunch of unimportant one-liners and then like his only big posts until he starts getting accused are about the "who knew when whether crossfire was a smurf" thing, which just doesn't matter so hard it hurts but then later i like hopeless's responses quite a bit more but then i actually read his list post and it contains gems like "Hapa - town, largely due to connections between him and debears, and between him and kickstart. This read has severely influenced my current scumreads. " town b/c he attacked your scumread, debears was attacked by your townread therefore he's scum lolwut "BH is trolly as fuck, but unlynchable today due to an uncountered JK claim. I haven't read into his meta, because there is no chance to push his lynch, even if I can make a convincing case. Despite this, I think the trolling is scummy, and I'll need to read the threads he's referenced during the night (assuming I'm not lynched)." he claimed so he's gonna be hard to lynch today so why bother thinking about him lolwut "Clarity - Town. He seems to misread the thread or just confuse people alot. I feel that type of repeating 'mistake' is less likely to happen as scum." yeah confusing people totally isn't in a scum's interest lolwut "Z-Bo - Town. I liked his pursuit of his case against BH and thought he brought up some legitimate points. Apparently they were so good BH had to claim to escape. " lolwut no other comments just lolwut oh actually yes other comments - zboson is town because bh responded stupidly to his case? "Strongandbig - Null-Town. Strange vt claim feels townslippy. However, Kenpachi rule shenanigans and insists on lynching BH for a while, despite blueclaim. Too strong of a scum motive to just let that slide, but I also think BH is scummy, so this read flips to Null-Scum if BH is in fact JK." lolwut - is this, like, a reverse connection theory? like, if bh is telling the truth then I must be scum? i really don't think that makes sense yeah so now i'm suddenly torn between wanting to test the kenpachi rule and hopeless's filter actually being terrible I guess if I really really had to I might vote hopeless to push that past a darthpunk lynch, because the reasons for lynching darthpunk are actually the worst. | ||
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On November 15 2012 08:28 Blazinghand wrote: The assumption that anyone is getting modkilled D1 when there are 4 people sitting on the replacement list is bad. Giving thrawn or DP null reads simply because they're in another game is also bad. If someone's lurking, give them a null for lurking if that's your take-- but don't consider the existence of another game as a mitigating factor for activity levels. If SnB is vet then I've been playing great this game and Marv has good control of his temper. sticks and stones bh sticks and stones | ||
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that post marv i can make your zboson case for you: keeeeeeeeenpaaaaaaaachiiiiiiiiii ruuuuuuuuuuule he was the first one to vote me for my accidental vt claim and the first one to try to use it as a lever of suspicion lets lynch him oh hey marv did you actually read through hopeless's list post or did you just do what everyone seems to have done and be like "oh he posted a bunch of reads that's what townies should do when they're under attack good for him"? what do you think of the things he actually said in there? | ||
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"hey db let's make terrrible terrible cases on each other and then push them really hard." "yes hapahauli let's do that then everyone will say "oh these cases are terrible the people they are attacking must be town"" | ||
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what do you think about my comments on hopeless's list post did you actually read hopeless's list post? if not go do it now and actually think for like thirty seconds about what he says in it. do the things he says in it actually make sense? | ||
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dont be voting dp ##unvote ##vote: zboson | ||
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lol | ||
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On November 15 2012 08:52 strongandbig wrote: lol this would be a great scum buddy strat "hey db let's make terrrible terrible cases on each other and then push them really hard." "yes hapahauli let's do that then everyone will say "oh these cases are terrible the people they are attacking must be town"" | ||
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On November 13 2012 09:33 iamperfection wrote: Time to fight ? ## Vote Hapahauli He had much better ways to start discussion if he wanted to pick a name basically at random. so i say he is probably full of shit. You could have done a random gambit where we could have had some discussion built around it. You didn't Now lets discuss. lol | ||
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On November 15 2012 11:14 Blazinghand wrote: Oh yeah we took a dumb risk, but it paid off <3 also this means you're probably not scum so i guess you really were this terrible or you're SK it's a retarded town fakeclaim or something, hopefully it's one of those | ||
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On November 15 2012 11:16 Blazinghand wrote: Anyone who thinks I'm scum need to square the following circles: 1: my claim 2: we lynched Hapa 6-5, and I was one of the 6. Why would I do this as scum with Hapa looking much townier than me? trolling him | ||
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i wish i was here instead of playing dota that last minute vote switch was one for the ages | ||
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On November 15 2012 11:21 Hopeless1der wrote: Does this semi-confirm either of these two? Hapa thought he was safe at this point, and was most likely trying to push a mislynch hapa's case on dabears was so bad and dabears case on hapa was so bad still think they were scum buddies | ||
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On November 15 2012 14:54 Blazinghand wrote: And I know you guys are gonna hate me for thus, but uh, yeah, I'm not a JK. Monday I had some family issues come up and it meant I wouldn't have much time to play through today, so I had to fake claim. Thursday and onwards I'm free though. Of course everyone is gonna be like super mad at me for this, but it worked, okay? Okay. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM nailed it suck it for hours | ||
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On November 15 2012 12:03 Blazinghand wrote: big plays QFT my brotha. "big plays" is how you win games from a bad position. "big plays" is how you lose games from a good position "big plays" is the best way to play. | ||
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On November 15 2012 14:55 Blazinghand wrote: I believe I have acquitted myself admirably in spite of it all. And yes, I know, I always say "don't fake-claim as town under any circumstances, it's literally never a good idea" but this is the exception that proves the rule. lol no it was a terrible play. if marv wasn't here I would've been the second most vet player after you and I would have done my utter best to get you lynched | ||
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On November 15 2012 21:57 marvellosity wrote: because he's scum or actually JK trying to avoid being hit or roleblocked or something. Still doesn't make much sense, though. Obviously somewhere between the posts he came to the decision to recant on his JK claim. In the first quote he still had the intent of keeping up the 'charade'. oh you actually think he's pulling the "I fake fake claimed" thing? le sigh. you're probably right though, otherwise he would have waited until the action resolution time to tell us that he was fake claiming. okay back to "he's either bad or serial killer" | ||
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maybe he was planning on un-claiming like this and hoped scum would believe the un-claim maybe he didn't really think it through idk | ||
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like, actually read it and tell me what you think of the individual points plz | ||
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On November 16 2012 03:34 Z-BosoN wrote: Strongandbig is trying hard to be a grush57. lol have you ever actually played with grush? | ||
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zboson tell me what you think of hopeless's list post | ||
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lurkers are easier to lynch | ||
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meh, marv is gone so I guess I'll actually have to try tomorrow .... T_T Oh well, see y'all then. Oh and if anyone has a case other than "he's been trolling" pls post it so I can respond to it. If you're gonna lynch me for docking around day 1 then fine do it, cause I dicked around day 1. It was fun. | ||
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On November 17 2012 05:06 debears wrote: I find it funny how snb made the claim, and his only scumhunting contribution rule was saying kenpachi rule on me and (zbo?), even though he said he didn't mean to claim. Anyways will be back in a few hours lies and slander even though I wasn't trying, I still did more scumhunting than this i.e: check all my posts on blazinghand | ||
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So here's God's honest truth: I didn't give a fuck day 1. Mostly because my last game was super-try-hard-ey; I had to think and double-think everything I said that game. I didn't really feel like putting all that much mental energy into mafia for a couple of days. | ||
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Scum don't sit there and troll and hope they win; or if they do, they are morons and will lose. Scum try to look like they're helping town; they try to look pro-town without actually being pro-town, or sometimes they actually do try and play pro-town but just do so in a way that doesn't aim town at their teammates. But scum don't sit there and post "lol lol," unless they've established for themselves a character in other games that they think will allow them to get away with posting "lol lol". Other than "he's a troll let's kill him with fire so he can't regenerate hit points," there seem to be two arguments in favor of lynching me: that I haven't done much to help town except sit here and troll; and, alternatively, that I've been posting the way I have as part of an elaborate plot to play "outside my scum meta" The "he hasn't been helping town" argument is stupid as an argument for why to kill me. You don't want to kill people who aren't helping town, unless you think they are scum. Wasting your kill on a townie who's not trying hurts town way more than that townie ever did. "He hasn't been helping town" is also stupid as an argument for why I'm scum. I haven't been pretending to help town without actually doing it, which is what scum do. What I've been doing is posting my honest unfiltered thoughts for the thread. Scum don't do that. It's too easy to fuck up and get caught, through inconsistency, through letting loose extra information, or just through generally revealing their mindset. Scum don't sit around and just kind of grumple around in the thread. Scum will either try to follow the thread or to mislead the thread, and I was not doing either of those. Like half my posts were expressing my very real suspicions of BH, even though no one was really listening to me. Now, let's look at the other argument - "he's posting like this because of his 'scum meta'." First, this argument is wrong, for a couple of reasons. If I was really trying to "go against my scum meta" by consciously manipulating my posting, I would be trying to emulate my "town meta" rather than "just posting whatever the fuck I feel like." There may or may not be a difference between my "town meta" and my "scum meta". That difference is plain if you just look at the last scum game I played. However, the difference isn't "when I'm town I troll and when I'm scum I tryhard." I can tryhard plenty as town too; my town games have had a variety of different posting styles and argumentative styles. It would be way easier for me to fit within that spectrum if I was doing this to avoid being caught by a meta case. There's one other reason why this argument is bad. It relies on the implicit assumption that I'm functionally retarded. For me to think that "posting nothing but non-grammatical insults and generally make myself look like a huge troll who doesn't care" is the proper reaction to hearing "your posts tend to feel more constructed when you're scum" would be ridiculous. If my primary motivation really was "avoid being caught on a meta case," there are other ways of playing that would have been both (A) far more effective, and (B) much easier to fake than what I did on day 1 of this game. Like, in my two recent scum games, I've "done nothing but sheep other people's cases and try to blend in" and "try to be a town leader by claiming blue really early and pushing cases really hard and shit." There's a whole spectrum of room between those two that I could have hidden in. If you really believe that I'm scum because my posts were "intentionally constructed to seem off-the-cuff and poorly thought out", then you have to also believe that I'm stupid. I'm not stupid. | ||
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I go through my filter and look at stuff. On November 13 2012 10:01 strongandbig wrote: if zb was scum he would have made a much longer post ##vote: hapahauli im down with that iamperfection thinkamajig this post makes me look bad. this would be a good argument for me being scum. scum love to vote for their buddies early. In reality, I just thought iamperfection's argument seemed kinda good about the weirdness of Hapahauli's first vote/minicase/whatever-thing. On November 13 2012 10:02 strongandbig wrote: also fuck you zboson i wanted to fakeclaim miller as vt since then people couldn't say "oh he's fakeclaiming miller must mean he's scum" when i fakeclaim miller as scum but now if i did that people would be like "two millers what are the odds" and then probably lynch you so no good on that one Ahhh, the infamous "accidental claim" post. Seriously if you guys think this was a good idea for a scum player to post, you are not very good scum players. I'm not a very good scum player either, but I'm better than that. The post itself contains the entirety of my motivation. There was one time when I fakeclaimed miller as scum (actually I was traitor, but I showed up as scum to detectives), and ever since then I've been looking for an opportunity to fakeclaim miller as town. I want to be able to claim miller more often as scum, but since the odds are so small of any single player ever actually being a miller, I would first have to establish a background of claiming miller as both alignments. I've actually thought a lot about this, there are some good arguments in favor of fakeclaiming miller as town if you have a lot of time to spend on a game and you think you can make your towniness clear through your actions. It would give town a focus of discussion early on day 1 when they're often aimless, and it would remove you from the list of people that DTs need to think about checking, making their lives easier. The reason I post all those thoughts is to give you some idea where I was coming from. I've thought a lot about the "miller" part, so when I saw zboson claim miller, it triggered me to think along those lines again. The "VT" part really didn't come into it at all. I had no idea at first what debears was talking about when he said I'd claimed something. One other thing I did a lot day 1 was to point out what I thought were bad arguments. I like doing this as town for a couple of reasons - mostly that it's fun, but I also think that criticizing bad arguments and trying to get them pushed out of the town discourse is helpful. It avoids people starting to build cases and reads on bad foundations, and it stops people from building up a "position" that they can refer back to later unless they have something that's actually worth saying. Here's one example. On November 13 2012 11:04 strongandbig wrote: lol i didnt attempt to explain anything about my reads in a post that consisted entirely of "this is stupid" am i explaining my reads in this post bro? Here's another example. On November 14 2012 03:53 strongandbig wrote: oh yeah I meant to quote this post that's some great logic right there - vote for me or vote with me. normally i'd find that super scummy but coming from bh it's only mildly scummy There's another one. On November 14 2012 22:57 strongandbig wrote: you idiot I already explained this TL uses military time it was 12 hours and 30 minutes And again. This one I had to do twice. There's a reason why it's important to tell people when their arguments are bad. As well as fun. On November 14 2012 22:43 strongandbig wrote: I can get behind this part (bolding by me) man though when will people start to realize - "you were inconsistent" is not sufficient to establish that someone is scum. You either have to show that their inconsistency has a scum motivation or you have to show that from a particular player, being inconsistent is a scum tell based on their meta. Townies change their mind too! Just saying "scum like to be inconsistent" is not sufficient! Scum motivations for being inconsistent are things like (-) going along with whatever the thread sentiment is at the time (-) buddying whoever has thread control (-) appearing to contribute without having to take strong positions (-) switching off of scum buddies or onto strong townies when a bandwagon goes further than they expected You can't just say "lol an inconsistency! Scum!" You have to do quite a bit more work than that. this is better - at least it's actually a real argument for him being scum. It's fundamentally a meta case, and therefore it would be better with quotes from other games by darthpunk or at least a guide for what other people should look for in his filter in specific games of his, but darthpunk is usually kind of a character so the case is easier to make here. Bolding by me - these are the central points of this case. This one was sort of an extreme example, because I actually explained why the argument was stupid and bad. It takes a lot of the fun out if I have to explain it. [KENPACHI RULE EDITED OUT] On November 13 2012 21:57 strongandbig wrote: yo marv you're gonna have to edit out that post about the kenpachi rule debears is scum tho in other developments: seriously, I wasn't really thinking too hard about what I posted last night. Believe me or not, I didn't intend to "claim VT" when I made the post in question. I'm going in to work in a couple hours, I'll read over the thread more carefully. However, here's my unfiltered thoughts atm marv: i hate trying to read marv, apparently someone caught him on meta analysis a game or two ago so I'll have to look that up but it's so much easier just radfielding him bh: thinks i'm town therefore my first reaction is to think he's town lol. i like his case on zboson though. hapa: scummiest of the actual good players in the thread atm more reading time here's another post that makes me look bad for a real reason. Randomly throwing suspicion on hapa without providing any reasons. Looks like I'm setting myself up for good distancing in case he flips before me, but doesn't actually create any danger for him. The actual reasoning that led me to write that line was pretty simple. Hapa's posting just wasn't very good. There was the early thing iamperfection caught, and the stupid post of Hapa's attacking me for "not sharing any information about my reads" or whatever (it's above in the section where I call things stupid). And in general, I expect Hapa to be pretty aggressive and frequently wrong, but to do so in a headstrong and confident way with fewer obvious logical flaws. However, I kind of let up on him later when he started emulating his town posting better, like the following post: On November 14 2012 03:56 strongandbig wrote: this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above One last thing: On November 14 2012 03:52 strongandbig wrote: but look at the reasoning for his town read, it was also terrible. it was a visceral (no eyes) reaction, the first thing to come out of his gut, just like "oh i guess zboson is town" was the first thing to come out of my gut when he posted it. So he changes from a weak, gut-reaction-based townread to a scum read. It's not like he was hard defending zboson or even really thinking about it in a way that we should be super concerned about, he was just pooping ideas out onto the thread. this is where I explain why hapahauli's case was bad. it was the same case, it was still bad. | ||
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On November 17 2012 06:02 Hopeless1der wrote: I don't think your stupid SnB. I would like you to start helping us catch the remaining scum and/or SK. Do you still want to pursue BH or is his fake-fake-fakeclaim believable? tricky. I think the reasons that people have been giving for not lynching him are bad, and I don't like that he keeps telling us how townie he is. I also think that his nighttime shenanigans were pretty much inevitable. Regardless of whether or not he was fakeclaiming, he had to do something either to "try to let him use his role" or to actually try to let him use his role. It's just like the original claim, it doesn't tell us anything about his alignment. So atm I still want to go after him, yeah. I want to look a little further into some other stuff though. | ||
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I'm ... pretty unsure about it happening at all. We don't have an open setup, so what would it tell us? Like, we wouldn't really be able to rule anyone in or out as potential scum based on it. Like, what would a "mass claim" really be except all of town asking "anyone who's blue and hasn't claim yet please do so now"? I definitely don't think we should do a mass claim right now. | ||
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On November 13 2012 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: cause he's town. it's not my job to defend the man, just to point out the scum on his wagon. read his filter and tell me that's scum S&B seriously dude On November 13 2012 17:16 Blazinghand wrote: K I think S&B is town and you guys voting him are voting him for carless, free posting that isn't at all how he played as scum a few days ago in Whose Line Mafia when he was posting shit like this on the first day + Show Spoiler + On November 02 2012 00:32 strongandbig wrote: Blazinghand, I am not saying you are violating the "mafia rules" or being "immoral" as the mafia community would see it. Churlish is a better adjective to describe your behavior than "cheating" would be. Dastardly, you're not being. Essentially, I think that "we joined this game to have fun with minigames in a mafia context, and just ignoring them isn't in the spirit of the game." For sure, you're well within your rights and the game rules to do what you've been doing, but I think the game would be more fun all around if we were all trying to follow the minigame rules and I hope the incentives to do so are stronger next time around. Going on to Adam. His posts this game "sound weirder" or "sound less genuine" to me than anyone else's except perhaps crossfire, who's playing the mad poet or something like that. It's hard to say whether that's because he's having a hard time posting naturally within the context of the minigame, or if it's because he is uncomfortable being scum or because he's not "being genuine" (I think that's how Sandroba described his scumhunting in some recent game I was following, reading people's posts and looking for people not being genuine etc). Just read through his filter a couple of times, it's not very long. K, here's one thing - he starts off with his "meta argument" on BKE, but then drops the read for no reason when he moves on to mementoss. Later, he says "BKE isn't scum to him," I would very much like to know what in BKE's filter gave him that impression because (as I outlined in my previous post) BKE's filter looks pretty terrible to me, and the worst parts are the parts that came after Adam's "meta read". Mementoss case, I find pretty unpersuasive, I think that comparing pre-game and in-game enthusiasm levels is a valid tactic. "Not posting much of value" or "not having strong opinions" can be a decent case to make if it's clear and pronounced but it's hardly unique to Mementoss at the moment, I would contend that BKE, Djagulingu, maybe hopeless also fall into that category. Oh, something else - he promises very early on to be like super active, but he is far less active than many other people. Putting the shoe on the other foot, however, his claims about the meta component to your case are pretty compelling. Qualifying that - I know your case is not mainly based on meta anymore. Really, however, unless you disagree with him that his more recent games are different from your claim about his meta, it should be recognized that that element of the case on him is weak. Something else you argue - he did originally take a position against BKE and later backtrack on it. Though I've said above that I don't understand why he backtracked, and though I really want to hear his reasoning, and though I think it's scummy to backtrack from one position and jump on another one without explaining yourself, I do think that at least taking a position is better than not taking a position, even if there is scummy backtracking. Ultimately, here's where I stand. Voting for BKE because I think he's scummier - his positions are less both in number and firmness, and there's also the factor of him doing what I believe is "smokescreening" by talking so much about "how important it is for people to vote in both threads" and then about "how people didn't understand what he meant when he was talking about how important it is for people to vote in both threads", neither of which matter very much. With that said, however, I think a lot of what you say about Adam makes sense, and I wouldn't strenuously object to voting him if that's necessary to get a majority. so yeah looks town to me On November 16 2012 11:13 Blazinghand wrote: Also, if you're not voting for SnB you need to give a very good reason for why he's town. ##vote: SnB | ||
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also ##vote: blazinghand | ||
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"but snb i'm so town because I'm an un-counterclaimed blue claim this is stupid and you should feel stupid. This is a semi-open setup, the lack of a counterclaim means nothing. There could be no jailkeepers or two jailkeepers, we don't know. We should judge a player based on their play. "but but but the hapahauli lynch" (1) On November 16 2012 15:17 Blazinghand wrote: Take a look at the timestamps on those votes, Djodref-- they were all made within the span of the last couple of minutes before the lynch. Nobody knew how many votes where on anyone else and we were getting hit with flood control. Everyone on the Hapa wagon was town. Anyone could have been scum. There was no indication that Hapa was actually getting lynched until all of a sudden he did. (2) On November 15 2012 12:03 Blazinghand wrote: big plays cf. my "Blazinghand psychology" argument. Blazinghand is into trolling and "big plays". By "trolling" what I mean here is "doing things that get a rise out of people" not "posting with bad grammar and shit" like I was doing. "Big plays" -> high-risk, high-reward. (3) Number three is something I'm calling "trying to be consistent in the heat of the moment." For an example, look at the recent Whose Line is it Anyway mafia game. Gonzaw basically gave up himself and Mementoss because he wanted to stay consistent at the moment of the lynch. He'd said something earlier in the day, before the bandwagon on Mementoss started, that he wanted to lynch Mementoss. Once it started looking like Mementoss was a viable lynch option, the best move would clearly have been for Gonzaw to jump onto the other bandwagon, but instead he hemmed and hawed and eventually voted mementoss, but he did so in a way that made it obvious that he didn't want to lynch him. In this case, what it meant was BH backed himself into a corner by "fos"ing hapa etc, and felt like he couldn't get off the bandwagon when it actually formed. "but why would he claim jailkeeper in the first place?" I addressed that in my case post yesterday on BH. On November 14 2012 23:06 strongandbig wrote: that sir is what's called "pushing your luck" BH posted this after reading exactly the same explanation from DP that I read, and exactly the same comments on DP's meta from marv as I read, and doing exactly the same amount of work looking into DP's actual scum/town meta as I did (none) - and yet he comes up with a vote? Without at all addressing the points from Marv and from himself about DP's meta? And without addressing the other game in progress issue - which isn't an "unverifiable irl excuse," we can go look at the thread - and yet he comes up with a vote? guys what we have out of BH is not just a scummy and needless claim - we have a scummy and needless claim from a player who isn't playing up to his usual town standard in several ways - bad cases - trolling/fluff while taking the easy opportunity to gain points by attacking other people for fluff and most importantly - the huge mismatch in thread presence, thread control, and town organization between BH's last town game (whose line) and this game And then we have BH psychology: he just saw me do well - not win, except for self-declaring victory, but do much better than I should have given how the game started out - he saw me do well by fakeclaiming blue and then really pushing that fakeclaim hard. He also just had what I assume must be a trollgasm from evoking ridiculous reactions from Keirathi in that same game. Now he's claimed blue for no good reason, and it's a blue role that he can "verify" easily by withholding KP, or that he can make unverifiable by claiming to be roleblocked. There's no way a town BH decides "there are 3 or 4 votes on me, like 30 hours before the lynch - time to claim!" I just don't believe that thought process is real. ##vote: blazinghand | ||
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On November 17 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: When you bailed and decided lurking was the best strat do you really think you've effectively addressed A) my claim and B) the Hapa lynch to the point where lynching me is a good idea? or is this your last hope as scum that I might be a worth mislynch, and some bads will jump on the wagon with you? lol so my not posting for a while was enough to make you change your mind about all the points you made previously saying I was town? I don't believe that. Plus, this is like the first time you've mentioned it. It reaaaaaaaaaally looks to me like you're just trying to ride the wave of the popular lynch of the moment. | ||
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On November 17 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: do you really think you've effectively addressed A) my claim and B) the Hapa lynch to the point where lynching me is a good idea? yes I do | ||
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On November 15 2012 11:16 Blazinghand wrote: Anyone who thinks I'm scum need to square the following circles: 1: my claim 2: we lynched Hapa 6-5, and I was one of the 6. Why would I do this as scum with Hapa looking much townier than me? that's one On November 16 2012 10:10 Blazinghand wrote: but like it doesn't matter, I'm like super town anyways for my claim and for killing hapa two On November 16 2012 10:13 Blazinghand wrote: See, this is even more evidence for me being town-- if I'm so bad, surely a scumteam with me and hapa would sacrifice me rather than him three On November 16 2012 15:19 Blazinghand wrote: And like, I'm an uncontested blue claim in a way that makes no sense for scum, and I voted for and lynched Hapa. I really don't get why you're so stuck on me-- clearly you're just wrong, because nobody's being convinced. If you think SnB is town, that's fine, but make a case on someone other than me. I'm not getting lynched and honestly you're wasting your time and ours with this stuff. four On November 16 2012 16:03 Blazinghand wrote: dude just think about all the mental contortions you put yourself through to explain A) the uncontested blue claim and B) the fact that I lynched hapa. did I like kill your father 10 years ago or what five seriously would an actual townie really just repeat the same argument over and over again? and try this hard to claim towncred for something which they themselves said was random? I don't believe it | ||
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On November 17 2012 09:03 Blazinghand wrote: Your interpretation of what happened in the final 2-3 minutes of D1 is pretty crappy. pretty sure it's not my interpretation. pretty sure I just quoted you there. And honestly do you really think *I* took a page out of *your* scum-play book? I may not be an amazing scum player, but I sure don't want any of what you're selling. not out of my scum-play book out of my awesome-big-plays book It doesn't even have to be because of me, it could be for whatever reason. The point is, you've been trying all game to ride what I guarantee is one of the worst blue claims in history instead of actually play like a townie and help the town. | ||
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even if we accept that I was somehow lurking or whatever why does that change your interpretation of my day 1 posting? you were pretty adamant that it meant I was town, and then you completely changed your mind without any explanation whatsoever. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MZ2fT.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gWpZ2.png) I started a dota game at 2:50 AM and it went for 38 minutes. I posted some "lol"s when I alt-tabbed out and saw the hapa lynch. I don't lie about that stuff. | ||
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On November 17 2012 09:14 Blazinghand wrote: Um, yes, given how people have been attacking me, and ignoring the obvious points in my favor, I'm gonna re-mention them. Let me repeat them for you, since you clearly don't get them, or are choosing not to get them: 1) my claim does not make sense except from a town perspective, and is uncontested 2) I lynched hapa, which makes zero sense no matter how much you strain your small brain to wrap around it and contort your logic around it. You have not resoundingly defeated either of these arguments. I would never borrow from YOUR meta. You're saying "I , SnB, have a meta of this kind of claim as scum, and BH was in a game in which I did that, therefore BH is fake-claiming this game" which makes no sense. In fact, in WLIIA Mafia scum could buy powers just like town, which made that kind of claim viable. This is a setup in which such a claim cannot be maintained. If this was an argument for "BH is a SK fakeclaiming Vigi" then it would make sense, but I claimed JK. Your logic is terrible. And the hapa lynch is what it is. I don't have a meta of doing that. I did it once. And it was sweet. I don't think you borrowed from my meta. It doesn't matter where you got the idea, I'm not trying to claim credit here. All I'm saying is that the idea fits in with my image of your psychology as a mafia player and a scum player. And here's something else you're ignoring - your claim makes even less sense from a town point of view. You claimed early in day 1 when you had like three votes on you. If you were town, by doing this you would have unnecessarily ruined your effectiveness as a town power role. The argument that your claim is "uncontested" is completely irrelevant. This is not an open setup. I mentioned this above. Your claim is also unverifiable, making it a good claim for scum. The thing is, nothing about your behavior in this game resembles your town play. Your cases are terrible, your arguments are terrible, and your thread presence isn't constructive. And I don't have to "defeat" your argument about lynching Hapa. You did that yourself. | ||
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On November 17 2012 09:20 Blazinghand wrote: This isn't even about our argument. It's about how you play the game. Whether you're town or you're scum, that's not how you play mafia. I might as well keep my stream on constantly (though never streaming my web browser, of course) at any time I claim to be AFK and use that as evidence. What you've done here is incredibly unsportsmanlike. clarity accused me of lying I don't like that | ||
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On November 17 2012 09:24 Blazinghand wrote: Let me break it down for you SnB cause apparently you're not getting it at all. This is the last time I'm responding to your trash posting-- if you convince other people to join your crusade, I'll talk to you again but other than this you're wasting my time. Here's the deadline votecount, with confirmed flips highlighted: DarthPunk (1): thrawn2112 (now djo) Z-BosoN (5): Clarity_nl, marvellosity, Crossfire99, strongandbig, Hapahauli debears (1): Hopeless1der Hapahauli (6): Z-BosoN, Blazinghand, debears, iamperfection, Kickstart, DarthPunk Now I don't think anyone on the Hapa wagon is a serious lynch target today. I don't personally think it's impossible scum is on the wagon, but it doesn't make a huge amount of sense for scum to bus and lynch Hapa unless they're in a better position than him in terms of town cred. As the votes started to fly, any reasonable scum player would have unvoted him unless they thought they had something to gain by lynching their own godfather last-minute. So I'm gonna say that scum is among the following list: Djo, Hopeless, Clarity, SnB Hopeless is in my mind confirmed not-scum right now. There's some small probability he's the SK, but we don't need to think about that unless the third scum flips and the game isn't over (I think). Really though he's not worth a lynch today at all. Djo replaced in and isn't getting lynched today. That leaves you and Clarity, and my only suspicion on clarity is the same suspicion on Hapa I had D1: He was too accepting of my blue-claim, and too reasonable about it. It's like he already *knew* I was a JK just from the claim. This is why I was trying to lynch Hapa D1 and why Clarity doesn't get a perfect town-read in my book, despite his otherwise solid play. You have no solid play in your favor, SnB. You went from carefree posting to a mixture of lurking and aggressive, big-case posting, which is in fact not your town meta. You're dead today. aggressive big case posting is totally my town meta have you even read any of my recent town games or are you just making more shit up and I thought I already explained - (1) scum don't feel like they can unvote someone like that - they're stuck to consistency (2) you had no reason to expect hapa would actually get lynched, you yourself have said you had no idea what was going on and you got hit by flood control | ||
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On November 17 2012 09:27 Blazinghand wrote: My claim makes perfect sense. I was under heavy pressure, and they weren't listening to my arguments. I didn't want to be on the lynch table, and honestly any analysis and voting is infinitely more important than being a JK. The number one role of any blue player is to play like a VT-- the blue powers are just a bonus on top, especially in Normal games. The blue powers I used to avoid a shitty mislynch D1 and focus the discussion. And hey, it worked, too. you were not under heavy pressure, you had a few votes on you. You barely even tried to persuade them otherwise, and what a real VT would've done would have been to ignore a few random votes and actually hunt scum. It's not irrelevant. There's now town JKer counterclaiming me, and you can't just toss that out the window-- so far there is one blue claim other than myself, and that's all. I'm uncontested. for all we know there is only one other blue. Or maybe one claimed, one unclaimed. It's not relevant. We don't know anything about the setup. If you're gonna pull a meta argument, show me a damn game inw hich I act like this as scum, I double dog dare you you've like never been scum in a normal game. I don't have to show that, I just have to show that (A) you haven't been playing like you do as town, and (B) your play is scum motivated. On November 16 2012 15:17 Blazinghand wrote: Take a look at the timestamps on those votes, Djodref-- they were all made within the span of the last couple of minutes before the lynch. Nobody knew how many votes where on anyone else and we were getting hit with flood control. Everyone on the Hapa wagon was town. | ||
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On November 17 2012 09:29 debears wrote: ##Unvote Considering you did tell me twice about the iamp timing thing, there is some hope that you are town Let's see where this goes. @SnB 1) You're "scum wouldn't do that' defense is WIFOM. You know this shit. Why even bring it up? Scum can do anything. You know better than that as town It's not enirely wifom. It's true that there is an element of wifom to it. However, if you agree with me that a play, judged of its own merit, makes no sense as scum play, then to think that I did it and am still scum because of wifom, you have to believe that (a) I played badly on purpose so that I could say "look how bad this play would be". I admit - it is possible that I played "bad on purpose" so that I could say "look how bad that play would be". But making smart plays is always going to be better than making dumb plays and then calling them dumb. Like, if you look at my filter, do you think to yourself "this makes sense for scum to do?" I contend, no. If you look at it and say "wow, there's no way this guy is scum, they wouldn't do that?" Again, I contend no. What I expect you would do is say "wow, this filter is just weird." That's just bad scum strategy. 2) You haven't given any thoughts other than BH for scumreads This is true. I'm still thinking about whether or not I still think dabears might be scum, and if not who my second scumread would be. 3) "You didn't want to be serious day 1" - Then why did you join the fucking game? You make this game so much harder for those of us who try if you are actually town. That's dogshit and you know it. Give the spot to someone who wants it next time (if you are town) There are plenty of players who take the whole game non-seriously. And it's not like I wasn't playing at all - I still made reads, told people when they were being stupid, etcetera. But, sorry, I guess? Still, does this make me scum? Honestly, those 3 points make me want to autolynch you. You're playing the sympathy "boo hoo I didn't want to try" card I'm not trying for sympathy. I'm being 100% open and honest with you, and explaining my actions. Also how is "boo hoo I didn't want to try" a card? That just doesn't make sense. You're either horseshit town or scum. Now, if you are town, show me by making reads damnit Right now I'm trying to persuade people that my top scum read is scum. | ||
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because people were accusing me of lying http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332573¤tpage=118#2358 I don't like when people accuse me of lying. | ||
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On November 17 2012 15:02 DarthPunk wrote: We are not lynching BH until MAYBE after ZB DJO Clarity S&B are all dead. Continuing on that tangent is anti town. this is stupid. Trying to persuade people that your top scum read is scum is never anti town. It's only anti town if you use it as a way to hide from actual contribution or engagement with the other people in the thread. But pushing your top scum read is, like, exactly what townies are supposed to do. | ||
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On November 17 2012 15:07 DarthPunk wrote: Do you not understand that you are almost certainly lynching a blue? DP think for a minute. BH claimed that he was roleblocked. The scum roleblocker hasn't flipped. Therefore, the last scum has to be a roleblocker for BH to be telling the truth. That means that at best BH is a vanilla townie now. But please, let's actually talk about this for a minute. Why do you believe BH? And please don't tell me that it's "because his claim doesn't make sense for scum." I've already made it clear why I don't agree with that - for one thing, it makes less sense for town in my opinion, and for another thing I think that BH is the kind of player who is likely to fakeclaim blue as scum or SK. I also think that BH's behavior doesn't demonstrate a town mindset or attitude. And don't tell me it's because of "setup speculation" or that "not enough blues have claimed" - the setup isn't open, so we don't know how many blues there are. We don't even know what modifications Keirathi may have made to the mafiascum/mafiawiki C9++ probability tables. There's also a good chance that one or more blues may just not have claimed yet because it isn't yet the best time for them to do so. This is not a sufficient reason for you to be so sure about BH's claim. So please, tell me - what in BH's behavior makes you so sure he's telling the truth? | ||
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In the OP, a few specific modifications to the C9++ setup are listed - namely, doctor->JK, IC->miller, all vigs are single shot, no other single shot powers. Are these the only modifications to the C9++ setup, or have you also modified the probabilities of different setups like WBG does in his normal minis? | ||
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On November 17 2012 15:28 Blazinghand wrote: lol equating jk claim with miller claim what a guy Actually, these two claims are exactly identical right now in nearly every respect
There are only two differences - (1) ZB claimed exactly when and how a town miller should have claimed, and your claim made no sense from a town perspective (2) ZB can't be confirmed by a DT check. So yeah I see those as pretty equivalent. | ||
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On November 17 2012 23:36 Clarity_nl wrote: Strongandbig what kind of reads do you have currently? Since you didn't post any in the final hour of N1, perhaps you could now? Yeah so here's what I'm going to do now - I'm going to read the cases on ZB, and his defenses, and peoples' reactions to them, and tell you what I think of that stuff. I think that's the second highest priority for me right now after trying to convince people that BH is scum. BTW clarity, let's talk about a couple of things regarding your conviction that I'm scum. (1) Part of your case was that I was lying about playing dota at deadline. Now that I've provided proof that I was not lying, does that part change? (2) You commented on the first part of my defense, which I think of as the "answers to general arguments for me being scum." However, you haven't commented on the second part of my defense, the "explanation of my filter." There were several things in there that I think were important in terms of responding to the arguments you make in your case. I would like you to tell me what you think of the following points I make:
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On November 17 2012 23:46 Clarity_nl wrote: Except for the fact that if BH is a JK then the scum roleblocker HAS to roleblock him. I guess that's true but I don't really see how that matters unless we have a second claimed blue role. Unless there's a terrible too-obvious breadcrumb, seven or eight townies should be much better at figuring out the last scum than that scum (by themselves or in the unlikely event that there's two scum left) should be at figuring out any fourth blue role we have that's still useful. | ||
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On November 15 2012 01:10 marvellosity wrote: Take more time on your phone, man. Anyway, I'll bite. First things first: you are a clever dude. You are also aware of your scum meta, and we've talked about it before too. As such you're capable of making changes to your meta, or trying to. In other words, being more aggressive and what have you. Things that have struck me this game with that: - You called iamp "bad" at least a couple of times. Just outright calling him a bad player. This is in contrast to say Rock Band where you railed at him for poor play and you kept pushing him to play better. Here you call him bad and that's different. - You called Kickstart "scum or bad", he should be "ignored", he should be "removed from our discourse" (or whatever the direct quote was). The townie BH I know does not completely belittle players like this. This boils down to pretty much outright bullying of a brand new player, and that is not the townie BH I know. - we've also talked about this before again, but one reason you're pretty good as town is that you make yourself look positively townie with your play. I don't give a shit if you got mislynched once, that's how you normally play town. Here your play is marked by put downs, sarcastic remarks, and very little positive input. - your case on Z-Boson. This was going to be part of my 'quiz', but if we take a look at your two most recent town-games, Rock Band and Whose Line, your first cases are marked by extensive use of meta. X is scummy because of Y, and look at how he played in this game and this game and this game to try to prove your argument. In this game you made no effort to research Z-Boson's meta, and that's not what I expect of a town BH. In contrast, your first major case as SK in Emergency Mafia also failed to utilise any meta as a supporting argument. Same with Bureaucracy. | ||
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On November 15 2012 21:47 Clarity_nl wrote: I just don't get this series of events. I agree that the "scumslip" thing was suspicious but we were waaaayy too close to deadline. On November 15 2012 21:48 Clarity_nl wrote: And this is coming from a claimed JK who is now claiming VT. With his reasoning being that he wouldn't be active. Only he was. On November 15 2012 21:54 Clarity_nl wrote: The dumbest part for me is that I asked him to post his night action Then a mere 3.5 hours later he posts Why would a VT blazinghand want to answer my question so quickly and with so much conviction if he planned on spilling the beans on his claim. Clarity do you still feel suspicious about BH's behavior close to the deadline? | ||
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On November 17 2012 09:21 Blazinghand wrote: Honestly, I expect more out of you, not as a scum or town player, but as a player in general and as a person. I guess my first read on you in that game so long ago was correct: SnB is a worthless mafia player. just saw this again fuck you times 9000 | ||
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On November 17 2012 10:41 Z-BosoN wrote: All righty had a tough day. Read SnB's filter, and I don't think he's a good lynch today. Couple of reasons, mostly based on his interaction with hapahauli. This post: + Show Spoiler + On November 14 2012 03:56 strongandbig wrote: this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above Seems genuine to me. I feel like this is a genuine exchange between hapa and SnB. Main point is hapa's read on SnB: And SnB's response is "that's the hapa I'm accustomed to" . Also, another post from his filter: Really, in my experience, scum don't openly base themselves off of other scum's cases like that. lol I did the exact opposite of this - hapa was saying that BH was not scummy, but he did it with such terrible reasoning that it made me want to kill BH even more. lol again this wasn't me giving Hapa a town read. I was quoting from hopeless's list post and giving reasons why I thought his reasoning was bad. This post here: Also sounds like "confused townie" rather than someone who fakes confusion. how does that sound confused? I could be wrong here, but I didn't get that impression at all. I also think that a scum SnB wouldn't play the "I don't give a fuck" routine, and his reaction to pressure right here is much much different than in LVII tl;dr His recent showing of his play is really really town-indicative, and he's openly drawing too many connections to a confirmed scum - hapahauli. I am not comfortable with an SnB lynch. Will pursue other reads, mainly thrawn (djo) and clarity. Let me know what you guys think. ##Unvote yeah I feel kinda weird that I'm attacking him for the post he made defending me, but this post is pretty much aggressively not paying attention to / thinking about what he's reading. Plus, defending bad townies can be a viable scum strategy, if the bad townies get lynched anyway and the scum can go and say "look I tried to stop you guys" when the bad townie flips town. | ||
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huh interesting not what I expected, I was expecting "no comment" or something like that very interesting Gonna finish reading zb's filter first | ||
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you know what, BH I disagree with how you characterize Z-boson's play in GSL 3 and in Liquid City. In both of those games, ZB pokes at multiple targets and moves his vote around as day 1 goes on. Some stuff from Liquid City in the spoiler + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 04:45 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm not too sure on kingjames. I can see his play coming from a noob townie. I dislike VE's play more, though. Perhaps I'm not used to his style, but now that talismania also found him scummy I guess I'm not being too unreasonable in thinking this. ##Vote VisceraEyes On October 02 2012 05:27 Z-BosoN wrote: @VE I hadn't seen your reply to my post, so I thought you basically had taken the same path as coag. I'm fine with your explanations, I just found it weird how you started the thread off by attacking annul. After reading the last two pages, I'm definitely more inclined for a KJ vote now, especially in light of his reactions after he's getting close to being lynched. His case against Mementoss is the laziest one I've seen yet. ("he doesn't care about town win condition"). Ironically, dismisses austin's vote as silly, when his own doesn't have a "real reason". He posted some lame excuse (aka resistance forum) for not being around. And finally, instead of commenting on the current cases and actually to scumhunt before he dies he spends his time tallying up a vote count. Classic fluff. So, after proper reading I've had a change of heart. ##Unvote ##Vote kingjames01 On October 02 2012 11:06 Z-BosoN wrote: That being said, regarding Node, I'm definitely up for it. BC's meta on kj has softened my feel towards KJ, and Node's one post to AWOL is very scum-like. On October 02 2012 11:06 Z-BosoN wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote Node I agree with BH that ZB shows sustained focus/pressure on his targets, but I think he shows that across multiple targets, and he doesn't necessarily let one read develop completely before he jumps over to another one. I also don't entirely agree that there's been a total lack of followup this game. ZB did keep the pressure up on BH, and he's been on and off of my wagon so many times that you'd almost expect to see him dragging back a buffalo carcass to feed his family. I agree with BH that ZB has been putting himself on several different wagons this game, which could be seen as setting himself up to be able to easily change his positions for scummy reasons. But I don't see that as a massive difference in his meta from previous games. From reading his day 1 filters in liquid city and in gsl 3, the impression I get is that he often does something like this. BUT - people, before you vote for z-boson, actually read his filters in those three games. I very much would like to hear from people who aren't BH or ZB what they think of BH's meta case. I'm not convinced ZB is town. I think Marv made some good points, and BH's case is pretty persuasive for why z-boson is scum, if you agree with the way that BH characterizes those filters. But for now my vote is staying right where it is. | ||
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That doesn't mean anything: - ZB's only chance to survive and make his time was to jump on the Hapa voteswitch - if ZB hadn't done that, it would have been completely obvious that he didn't want Hapa to die, contrary to what he had been saying - If ZB then flipped scum, Hapa would be the clear and obvious target for vig or lynching. Like, that argument means even less from ZB than it does from BH, and it already means nothing from BH. | ||
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On November 18 2012 01:42 debears wrote: Snb your vote is on bh right? that's right I still want him dead | ||
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On November 18 2012 08:37 Hopeless1der wrote: We can't because Keir has modified the setup. Stop it. this is wrong keirathi said he didn't modify the probabilities he only did one-for-one substitutions of some roles so we can calculate the odds of shit | ||
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On November 18 2012 09:05 iamperfection wrote: s&B you said you were busy playing dota here correct? just humor me for a second umm yeah I think so why did I fuck something up? | ||
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On November 18 2012 10:24 iamperfection wrote: are you sure  no extended breaks at all ????we were losing pretty terribly, so I alt tabbed out a lot when I died... why, was I posting on irc or something? | ||
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On November 18 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote: Alright well time to sit down with some filters like I promised. I'm also gonna reread the stuff I missed near the end of D2 and see what the renewed SnB push is about. If he was really faking that screenshot I would be utterly unsurprised-- it would fit with his character. seriously? fuck you fuck you fuck you | ||
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On November 18 2012 16:13 Blazinghand wrote: Djodref, the issue isn't continued pressure on me, but the fact that you refuse to pressure anyone else. Look at it, just for a moment, from the perspective of "BH, the JK, is trying to evaluate whether Djoref, who replaced in for thrawn, is scum. He gave the dude a grace period of 72 hours to see what he could do." Now, given that, you' haven't given me much to work with. You've developed a case on me, and that's okay-- but you've also refused to really develop cases on other players. What does this tell me? Well, I called you out for it and your main addition (despite a list of reads that you haven't expanded on) has been to try to out our last blue WITHOUT HIS INPUT. And still no serious cases on other players. You may think I'm scum, but surely you don't think it's a 100% chance. And by the way you're playing, I, and many people who do in fact not think I'm scum, can't get a townread on you. What do you want me to do, man? I'm not one to push people to acknowledge they could be wrong, but even when I am pushing a guy close to lynch time, I tell him to give out some final reads in case he flips town. I account for the possibility of being wrong. I guess I'll put this plainly: If you don't make cases on anyone else and if continue as you are now, I'm lynching you tomorrow. End of story, you're out of the game. lol "you're lynching him" come the fuck on what are you delusional? fucking delusional | ||
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On November 18 2012 16:52 Blazinghand wrote: in summary, I'm gonna say this: those of us who have already claimed (hopeless1, me) or are gonna claim VT are not allowed to claim until blue(s) claim. wrong wrong wrong if there aren't any more blue roles then we catch you as scum with a mass claim | ||
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On November 18 2012 11:53 iamperfection wrote: answer my silly questions s&b I thought I did... I'm not entirely sure what more you want? On November 18 2012 13:49 Djodref wrote: Well, a mass claim would answer these questions On top of that, we are likely to have a cop so more confirmed town players in the process. The downfall is that we are going to out some blue payers but I don't think it really matters at this point. We are likely to be in a 7vs1 situation tomorrow so that mean that a scum would need 3 mislynches to win the game. It is not going to happen at all if we have the blues. It could be a problem if we have a SK but this is 3 times less likely than a no SK situation and we could start to hunt him if we know for sure that he exists. This game is all about information. As town, we know already for sure that
I'm pretty sure that a mass claim is going to give us enough data to help us win this battle of information And I think it's easier and faster than to look in details at more than 100 pages long game, and also a more beautiful way to solve this game (but this is personal preference ^^) I need the VTs to claim as well by the way. We don't know there's a scum roleblocker - BH could be lying, he might be scum and not roleblocker. On November 18 2012 14:31 Clarity_nl wrote: I realize you're bitter because you've been useless all game, but dying townies had a super duper town read on me. You're in such a good position because you were the hammer vote, why don't you use it to push some actual reads. SnB and Djo were on BH at the end? really? One of these has to be scum.... come on..... or they just really don't care. SnB where the fuck were you? Having my vote on BH was the only logical course of action. The only other people with votes were me and z-boson. I know I'm town and I thought that BH was more likely to be scum than z-boson. On November 18 2012 14:41 iamperfection wrote: s&b like wtf man you just disappear like wtf dude. I know my little mini case on you is kind of silly with the dota thing is crazy but you could at least call it stupid. DO YOU CARE s&b. Bh think about your action critically please i will lead the wagon of justice against you myself if you make another dumb play this game. Also DP want to hear your thoughts in light of zbos flip is clarity who your still thinking now because i dont really see it. djo i know you think setup speculation but please do some traditional scum hunting before dawn. I will post updated thoughts in the 1 hour grace period like last time. I will probably be quieter tomorrow because weekends are bad for my mafia play but i will be here 100% during that grace period. I mean I'm not sure what my being here would have done. No one was listening to me on BH, and it seemed pretty clear that the lynch was going to be on one of BH or ZB. Sure I had votes on me, but there had been enough discussion of that during the day that a last-minute switch was pretty unlikely. On November 18 2012 15:04 Clarity_nl wrote: Currently the holy town trinity is iamp, hope and myself. Currently the scum that looks to be buddying up with a scummy town to look more towny is Djo or SnB. Currently Kickstart, Darth, debears, blazing are ALL not contributing. And it's driving me up the goddamn wall. I hate when people say "this group of people is town" and then try and ride on it. I guess maybe you're talking about people who voted for Hapa, which is a decent heuristic to use as long as you don't include BH, but given the confusion surrounding that last-minute switch I'm not comfortable saying any person is 100% town because they voted Hapa. On November 18 2012 15:53 Blazinghand wrote: Seriously, no VT claims. NADA. VTs are NOT allowed to claim, or even allowed to say they think the blue SHOULD claim. All this does is tell scum who the last blue is. If everyone except for one guy is like "ok, the blue should claim" and the blue doesn't claim well damn look what you did. The only person who is allowed to claim is the blue, and after the blue claims, everyone else claims. We are not allowed to make this decision for him and the fact that anyone would take djoref even remotely seriously is bad. Nobody should even say "the blue should claim" cause this helps scum guide their shots if the blue doesn't claim. Seriously. This issue is closed. This is goofy. | ||
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On November 18 2012 15:39 Kickstart wrote: I've already given my reasons on SNB, read my filter and you will find it. Djo I haven't said much about but if Thrawn were still here I'd want him gone next (originally I wanted Hopeless gone but since he claimed vig, and I have no reason to not believe the claim, I would start going after the people who I felt contributed minimally to town: snb thrawn being the top two). Now I know that Djo is a replacement so that is why I want to give him more time. But so far he has just been pushing his read on BH (and I think this mass claim is his plan to "catch" BH). But I personally don't see much reason to lynch BH yet until after some of the other people are gone. Not sure what more you want me to expand upon. Just take a look at this guys filter and then couple that with his votes and tell me it isn't suspicious as hell. SnB, like hopeless, never sticks his neck out on any reads and just agrees or disagrees with other peoples points. Couple that with his votes (ignore the hapa vote, it was at the VERY start of the game and it was a complete joke vote; he only votes for debears, blazinghand, and ZB). He was also oddly quiet during the pile onto hapa - while being there to laugh the most and mkae jokes afterwards?? Some reservations I have about snb is that he has gone after both hapa and hopeless postings (hapa who we know is scum and hopeless who I have the strongest read on at the moment), but scum dissing on scum isn't unheard of. Another reservation is that he has gone after BH hardcore, who I would be just as willing to lunch at this point as snb (though I would still rather go after my top read atm - hopeless). Anyways there you have it, hopefully night actions reveal some more stuffs. This is all you've said about me. I posted a couple of pretty big defense posts - did you even read them? What did they make you think? Do you have any response to them? | ||
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On November 18 2012 19:00 Blazinghand wrote: Wow he really bailed hard as soon as iamp started asking him about his dota. what is the deal snb fuck you I spent my whole day off yesterday playing mafia I can't always be fucking super active all the time. No one was listening to me and it was fucking late at night also: fuck you you terrible nasty aggressive bad has-been self-charicature | ||
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On November 18 2012 20:31 Clarity_nl wrote: How come there are so many lazy town in this game, but not the fucking newbies I played in. Kickstarter, I've explained before why just sitting back and saying who you think is scummy is not enough. Darth, you said the only person you're willing to lynch over zbo was me, make a fucking case. Hopeless, seriously dude you are the closest we have to confirmed town, you have nothing to fear, this is the perfect time to read read read and get a read going. I would also like everyone who voted zbo to explain why they didnt switch after his death post. Did it LOOK like a fucking WIFOM bomb? He called the towny players town and he called the scummy players scum. complaining about lazy townies in a mini that's hit 136 pages before the end of N2 way to score easy points bro | ||
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On November 18 2012 22:49 Kickstart wrote: Can we seriously end all the personal attacks this game, I guess asking this 136 pages in is a bit late but seriously it is getting annoying. the "easy points" thing isn't meant to be a personal attack it's a comment that you did something scummy scum like to criticize town for inactivity, it's a way to seem town without actually helping the town. the fact that your criticism is not valid makes it seem even scummier than usual | ||
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On November 18 2012 23:00 Clarity_nl wrote: It wasn't just me saying "god you're so inactive" It was me actually trying to make the town active as well by pointing out certain people and asking questions. If you can't tell the difference that's not my fault. Kickstart no one has personally attacked anyone else this game. that's not true at all blazinghand has been personally attacking me plenty | ||
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On November 18 2012 23:16 Kickstart wrote: SnB your posting is making no sense. First off your "scoring ez points" post was in response to clarity not me, yet then you say it was a comment that I did something scummy. wat...? You are confusing me. And my asking people to stop making personal attacks was not in response to anything aimed at me - after hapa and BH had their turns attacking me no one has done so again. I just think some people get a little too carried away with personal attacks. But anyways I won't talk about it anymore as it doesn't really help us find scum. But I will be messaging mods if it continues. yeah no i got confused | ||
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On November 18 2012 15:25 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity I think that Hope is Vig even if we obtain the proof that there is a SK with a mass claim. Are you familiar with the C9++ setup ? If not, I recommend to have a careful look at this page. It's quite interesting and I think this is something you have to know if you want to be a better player and/or if you want to host a game sometime. Anyway, here is the most interesting part regarding the setup, given our current situation. To sum up, the scum roles are a function of the number of "T" letters you obtain when you pick 7 letters in between the following letter probability set. T = 1/2 D = 1/10 (in our game, the "D" letter gives us JK roles) V = 1/10 (one-shot Vigs only) M = 1/10 (mason and miller roles) B = 1/20 (town RB roles) C = 3/20 (you need two "C" letters to have one fully operational Cop in the game) Please note that one of the letters in our rolled set for this game is M and that one other is V (Hopeless). Let's take a look at the different possibilities for the scum roles. Scum Roles a 7 "T" letter set is impossible because we have at least one "M" impossible because we would already have won the game TTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer This setup is possible only if one of BH or Hopeless is lying and is the remaining SK. I think we can safely discard this possibility unless we are at lylo with BH or with Hopeless. Moreover, there are only 2 mafia in this setup and no more blues on top of Hopeless and BH, even if one of them is lying. MVTTTTT or MDTTTTT if you want. impossible setup because of Bowser flip impossible setup because of Bowser flip TT = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather I think that this is the setup we are in (and it is the most likely probability-wise, something like 40%). It leaves the room for 2 or 3 more blues on top of Hopeless, information that we can be confirm with a mass-claim. T = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof) This setup has roughly a 15% probability to happen. It can also be confirmed with a mass claim but it would leave us in a dangerous position with all the blues revealed for the SK and the remaining scum. But we would know for sure that there is a SK and start looking for him seriously. Anyway, it is less likely to happen. 0 Ts = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather This setup has only a 5% probability to happen. We would have enough blue to outright solve the game. Is there anything stil unclear ? The more I think about it, the more I think that mass claiming at the end of the night is our best move but I need everyone participation. I beg you to seriously consider it. I'm going to work through the possibilities in detail here, so I can add up the probabilities later. First, some comments:
TTTTT, I don't think we can discard. We can no longer tell any difference between the three possible scenarios: BH is lying and is the SK, BH is lying and is the last scum, and BH is telling the truth and there is a scum RB'er. This means we could have TTTTTMV, BH is the serial killer, and there are no other blue roles. Two T's: either blazinghand is telling the truth, or else blazinghand is the scum roleblocker. First, TT setups where BH is telling the truth and there are no additional blue roles This is only possible if one-shot roles get removed:
Next, TT setups where BH is telling the truth, and we have a single unclaimed blue role:
Next, TT setups where BH is telling the truth and we have more than one un-claimed blue role. These are only possible if one-shot roles get upgraded:
Finally, TT setups where BH is telling the truth and we have a mason pair that hasn't claimed yet:
Now, let's look at the cases where BH is lying, but we're still in a TT setup. There has to be at least one additional blue role for this to be true. TT setups where BH is lying and there is one additional blue role
TT setups where BH is lying and there are two additional blue roles
Next, TT setups where BH is lying and there are three additional blue roles. This only works if one-shot roles get upgraded:
[u]Finally, TT setups where BH is lying and we have an unclaimed mason pair and no other blues
[u]And, TT setups where BH is lying and we have an unclaimed mason pair and one other blue [list] [*]TTMMMVC if one-shot roles get upgraded [*]TTMMMVB in all cases Single-T setups We can only start out with TMVD if BH is telling the truth, or TMV if he's lying; but the assumption that there are no other jailkeepers makes it a bit simpler than it could have been. If BH is telling the truth we have
there are a fuckload of these and I need to get to work, I'll come back to this later. | ||
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On November 19 2012 01:24 Blazinghand wrote: lol more setup speculation how typical also snb is a vet like I'm a sailor I ain't no sailor fuck along now unless you have something helpful to share with the class? | ||
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And as for your other point, I think that it's not necessarily a suicidal move if you (a) think you can get away with it, or (b) don't really think you can / want to try to win normally as SK in the first place Basically, I still think BH's claim makes as much sense from an SK as it does from an actual town jailkeeper. | ||
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On November 19 2012 01:37 Blazinghand wrote: snb y u so mad didue u gotta chill out is that dota screencap fake or what no its not fake i have no idea what iamperfection was talking about, i've been assuming he has some kind of point and he'll get to it eventually as for "y u so mad didue u gotta chill out" all i have to say is, I guess your plan to discredit me by insulting me and getting me angry is working. | ||
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i'll take a look at it eventually, right now I want keirathi to get back to us on the one-shot-role question. | ||
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If he just turned them into VTs, then BH would say that the setup is TTMVVDC or TTMVVDD, and that he's still "confirmed jailkeeper" but there were no other blues. If Keirathi either (a) turned one-shot roles into full roles, or (b) re-rolled any setup that had one-shot roles in it, then yes I agree, a serial killer automatically loses at LYLO when there are no more blue roles. | ||
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On November 19 2012 03:11 iamperfection wrote: how did you snipe me thats all i want to know. i was f5'ing like crazy and somehow you sniped me with your lol. I thought you said you were playing dota. meh idk, I probably looked over and saw "oh it's 3am and my antimage died, I might as well check if there's a flip yet," then got lucky with when I happened to click "next page" | ||
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Also - C's have to come in pairs, whereas you have to have an odd number of V's or B's. One consequence: the only situation in which there are no additional blue roles is in TTTTTMV, if BH is the serial killer and there are no remaining scum. These are all TT setups where BH and H1 are telling the truth
You'll note that there are no B setups here. That's because any possible TT setup including a vig, a JK, a miller, and a roleblocker, would have either a one-shot JK or a one-shot roleblocker, and thus be bumped up to three T's. Now, let's look at the cases where BH is lying, but we're still in a TT setup.
Now, with this new information, I can actually start to get to grips with the single-T setups. If BH is telling the truth we have
If BH is lying we have
Then finally there are the zero-T setups where BH is telling the truth:
Where BH is lying:
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(I found your setup generator but I don't know how to read the source code) | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9dEjk.png) TTTTT shouldn't have a roleblocker, it should just have goon+gf Unless the scum roles you're using are different from the mafiascum/mafiawiki c9++ roles | ||
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I thought of this on the way back from work. If we massclaim, it will instantly confirm half of the town. The scum will have to either claim a blue role, or claim VT. We look at the blue roles that get claimed, we back out the DCTVetc, and we calculate "for this set of blue roles, how many VTs should there be" Then there will either be too many or too few VT claims. If there's too many, all the blues are confirmed. If there's too few, all the VTs are confirmed and one of the blues is scum. sup now blazingasshole | ||
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why are you guys voting me again like, just read the defense stuff i posted last time | ||
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maybe people will just follow me around for no reason | ||
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On November 19 2012 07:08 strongandbig wrote: Okay so this is actually really interesting - it's not what I expected, one-shot roles neither get "upgraded" nor "removed" which narrows down the possible TT setups by a lot. Also - C's have to come in pairs, whereas you have to have an odd number of V's or B's. One consequence: the only situation in which there are no additional blue roles is in TTTTTMV, if BH is the serial killer and there are no remaining scum. These are all TT setups where BH and H1 are telling the truth
You'll note that there are no B setups here. That's because any possible TT setup including a vig, a JK, a miller, and a roleblocker, would have either a one-shot JK or a one-shot roleblocker, and thus be bumped up to three T's. Now, let's look at the cases where BH is lying, but we're still in a TT setup.
Now, with this new information, I can actually start to get to grips with the single-T setups. If BH is telling the truth we have
If BH is lying we have
Then finally there are the zero-T setups where BH is telling the truth:
Where BH is lying:
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bh is still terrible though | ||
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On November 19 2012 12:37 Djodref wrote: Anyway, a zero T setup would have less than 1% chance to get rolled at the beginning in a classic C9++ game and the probability is even lower with Keir generator because the one-shot roles are replaced by Ts. I wanted S&B to say this to me. I don't understand how S&B can have his vote on BH right now given the info we have. MVCCDTT makes more sense, in term of probability and in term of play. Your logic is fallacious right now S&B. Explain me how you can conclude that voting BH is still a good move now and I might unvote you. ##Vote S&B The reason that I'm still voting BH is that I'm pissed off at him for insulting me and therefore I want him to die. If we have no more blue claims then he's pretty much confirmed by the setup possibilities - the blues we already know about mean the setup must at least include MCCV. That's only three letters, and a TTT setup wouldn't include a godfather, so there has to be at least one more letter. So either there is another blue, or we have TTMCCDV and BH is confirmed. Unfortunately. | ||
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wow newsflash people, this just in: people don't like getting lynched! seriously tell me why it's bad for a townie to post more when they're under suspicion. going above and beyond your normal activity/involvement level seems exactly like what a townie should do when they're under suspicion. Oh hey it's another newsflash! 3AM is an inconvenient deadline! I have a life and do things other than play mafia! I also like to play video games, who would expect that a user on a video game site likes to play video games! so yeah, last time I put a lot of effort into not getting lynched. This time the reasons for lynching me are even dumber, plus town is in a pretty great position regardless of whether or not I get killed, so don't expect me to do the same as before. | ||
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On November 20 2012 01:48 Blazinghand wrote: BTW, SnB, see that thing I just did there with kickstart? That whole "read his filter, do analysis, and make a read" thing? If you're town, that's what you need to do. You need to help find the last scum. Even if you think "oh I'll never convince BH, I'm gonna get lynched anyways" it's all the more important that you play the game. If you die without doing this, and flip town, you have failed. Well, you have failed more. Whatever alignment you are, I recommend strongly against conceding. Play the game. Analyze. I know you're capable of it. now that i think you're town i don't really want to win anymore because it means you win too you're like drazerk2.0 | ||
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##concede maybe this will work | ||
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On November 20 2012 02:22 Blazinghand wrote: That'd be pretty funny. But yeah as long as you're just putzing around I'm gonna go and read some more filters. I'll keep an eye on the thread in case you decide to play the game. i mean, i'm at work right now i can't really take too much time to go filterdiving maybe at dinnertime, we'll see | ||
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On November 20 2012 03:53 Blazinghand wrote: EBWOP: sorry didn't mean to imply you are shitty player, that was a poorly worded sentence lol | ||
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but they would all lose | ||
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On November 20 2012 05:29 iamperfection wrote: My witty retort: Your stupid But seriously like will you give us something when you get home or are you just gonna mail it in? this thread is fucking long btw sorry for calling you lazy i was misled still if you actually think i'm going to flip scum you're stupid. | ||
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On November 13 2012 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: cause he's town. it's not my job to defend the man, just to point out the scum on his wagon. read his filter and tell me that's scum S&B seriously dude lol | ||
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Here is the central point of the case: clarity has been taking the easy road to "appearing to be town". He's been making lots and lots of little, easy non-contributions. Chief among these: - he's been really focused on a lot of small points that don't actually point towards alignments or help find scum - he's been asking a lot of questions, but often without sharing his own positions or thoughts until being pushed - he's been "calling people out" for "playing badly", "not being pro-town enough", "not trying hard enough" etcetera, but he hasn't been taking his own advice. what cases he has made have been flimsy, based on bad logic, and expedient at the time. these are all things that are easy for scum to do in order to try and seem town, pass by the townies unnoticed. out of the players who didn't join the last-minute switch to hapahauli he is definitely the scummiest. On November 13 2012 10:16 Clarity_nl wrote: Bandwagon time! Please answer why you claimed. ##Vote Strongandbig On November 13 2012 10:50 Clarity_nl wrote: You've posted three times since your VT claim, with a total of 7 words. Please explain your claim. On November 13 2012 10:55 Clarity_nl wrote: He "VT claims", then disappears. He just answered and his answer was "I claimed on accident" I explain my reasoning my 2 posts before my vote. On November 13 2012 11:04 Clarity_nl wrote: Where do you currently live? Could you change your profile to that? clarity was like super obsessed with my vt claim. i already told you why that's scummy. On November 13 2012 11:08 Clarity_nl wrote: He was asking if anyone knew if he was a smurf. You didn't say "we don't know", you said "doesn't matter" who cares if that was a smurf On November 13 2012 11:16 Clarity_nl wrote: Yes I realize he asked before marv answered. How are your quotes not in context? You answer Hapa by saying it doesn't matter who he is, because reads within the current game are more important. But just now you asked about someone's meta, contradicting yourself. Please tell me where I am wrong. who cares On November 13 2012 16:41 Clarity_nl wrote: Morning. My vote on SnB isn't going anywhere for the moment. It was meant as pressure and it'll remain until he answers my question: I find the answer (if you can call it that).... not to my liking: Anyway.... just because my vote is on him doesn't mean I can't focus on other things. Just woke up and had breakfast, will be reading some filters. PS: What? more about my claim On November 13 2012 16:52 Clarity_nl wrote: Right now, he's it. Maybe he's a bit too obvious and maybe the fact that no one has defended him, even a little bit, makes it less likely, but he's still it. Just because I said my vote pressures him, does not mean that is solely what my vote it for. It's staying there until he explains himself clearly, luckily we have plenty of time. lol On November 13 2012 17:10 Clarity_nl wrote: I wish he posted more. It seems he was around for about 2 hours but he never really said anything of substance. The only original thought he had so far was his debears vote, which he quickly withdrew. The vote made no sense to begin with. "Debears didn't write a paragraph about a miller claim day 1, that's scummy!" ?? His miller claim makes sense, there's been no other miller claims. The only thing I don't like about it is that he explained his possible motivations as scum and town to claim miller, which isn't necessary. Your turn. meh On November 13 2012 17:26 Clarity_nl wrote: ebwop His play this game is still anti-town, regardless of alignment. I hope you realize this SnB and shape up. good old "he's being anti town" the scum's best friend On November 13 2012 17:42 Clarity_nl wrote: Hapa, this still bothers me. I asked you what you thought about SnB's claim and if you thought it was bad for town, and you answered: You compared this to Cheese's claim from NMM XXX even though the situations are completely different. The only reason Cheese claimed was because he thought only VT's knew the VT flavor. So he was trying to claim without alerting scum. SnB just outright claimed VT. After I explain why it's different, you basically give me the same answer: The other thing I don't really like is the use of "theoretically yes" and "IMO" Whenever I've seen you post you tend to be direct and with conviction, but not this time. weeeeeak saaaaaaauce On November 14 2012 01:45 Clarity_nl wrote: Blazing for the love of god use spellcheck or autocorrect or something and please stop posting one liners and address the case made against you. Hi guys, I'm back. Marv I'm not suspicious of you, I was just curious about debears' response. I phrased the question in a way that would make him seem inconsistent if he found you town, but he found you town anyway. Gives me a town read on debears. Scum hate to be inconsistent. guys post better guys guys come on guys post better look at how much townie i am On November 14 2012 05:00 Clarity_nl wrote: Yeah.... making a case on Darth isn't working, which I think in itself says a lot. If you guys somehow haven't noticed. Take a look at Darth's filter. It's basically a bunch of one-liners, jokes, the occasional null read on others. It doesn't actually help town. The only things that stand out in his filter are him voting for SnB with the comment "so retarded" (which apparantly is a null tell, judging by his previous games, he throws the word around a lot) After I jump on the SnB wagon, he votes for me without explaining. Later on he quotes his own post of him voting for me and explains why, after I explain my reasoning he quickly unvotes me and hops back on SnB. He then claims he's just "throwing his vote around", but he doesn't ask questions or make comments about me or SnB. Then why vote for him? Because if it was to pressure, why wouldn't he actually explain why he's voted this way or ask questions? You either vote to lynch or you vote to pressure. But Darth's vote was.... neither? ##Vote DarthPunk someone already talked about this but lolwut, "making a case isn't working" but "vote to kill him" like, to clarity the reason "making a case isn't working" is not because dp was townish but just because his filter wasn't long enough - this reasoning implies that "making a case should work" if anyone has a large enough filter. like, maybe he was trying to do a lurker lynch without actually calling it that? but also there's pretty much no explanation of why any of this stuff makes darthpunk scum, just "he's doing this thing and he shouldn't be doing it." On November 14 2012 05:48 Clarity_nl wrote: Do you guys have some sort of meta read that I do not? The description "has a 3 page filter but nothing that I can make a read off of" doesn't seem very townie to me. someone who says this had better have stuff in their filter that people can get a townread off of... but nope On November 14 2012 06:51 Clarity_nl wrote: I wouldn't say tunneling someone is considered defending yourself. I don't disagree with this notion. If you're town just scumhunt and the fact that you're town will shine through, but don't accuse someone else of not defending themselves. Where did he mention you're threatened by his claim? On November 14 2012 06:56 Clarity_nl wrote: But, you're not scum, right? So you don't feel threatened, right? On November 14 2012 07:01 Clarity_nl wrote: But you didn't say "Scum wouldn't be threatened", you said "I'm not threatened" On November 14 2012 07:03 Clarity_nl wrote: I'd love someone else's input on this phrasing. Am I reading too much into it? Marv if you're gonna do quiztime it should be soon. I plan on going to bed at NOT 4 am since I have to be up 3 am tomorrow for lynchtime. yeah more "who cares" here like, this is just silly. On November 14 2012 07:34 Clarity_nl wrote: I guess it's because I just started the post and ended it. I spellchecked but that's it. So I started out with "Yeah making a case on him isn't working" But I guess I did end up making a case on him, heh. I just wanted to put thoughts out there that weren't about BH, as I felt others were flying under the radar. read the whole exchange here, they both sound weird then tell me that sounds like the aggro hapa we know and On November 14 2012 08:14 Clarity_nl wrote: Blazing, you didn't HAVE to claim. I guess it's too late for that though, so let's leave that till post game. Do you still believe Zbo is scum, and who else do you have scumreads on? Give us as much information as possible this daycycle. somebody else said why this is bad its bad On November 14 2012 23:54 Clarity_nl wrote: I'll be back for a bit in 30-40 minutes but in an hour or two I'll be gone until 9 pm my time (6 hours before lynch). I would like some more thoughts on this please: iamp I urge you to look elsewhere than BH for the time being, and revisit this tomorrow. Lynching him today would simply be bad. i'm not too into this giving town your schedule thing at least not until they start voting for you for not posting enough or whatever On November 15 2012 01:04 Clarity_nl wrote: So what you're saying is you won't make cases because it requires effort? Dude you are making it so hard on me to not vote for you. yeah cause your cases are so well made oh wait no but that's okay, still let's call out other people for shit and stuff, that's easier than actually making cases On November 15 2012 06:19 Clarity_nl wrote: Hopeless why are you not out there giving us your strongest reads and making cases? Even if you can't prevent the lynch, if you flip town we can read your filter and know it is all genuine. On November 15 2012 06:25 Clarity_nl wrote: Is TL having issues atm? Refreshing is taking forever. On November 15 2012 06:31 Clarity_nl wrote: Hopeless, other than debears, what are your thoughts on others? Even if you have null reads, please share them, explain them. On November 15 2012 07:06 Clarity_nl wrote: Does this mean you agree that BH is a bad lynch now, or you simply realized he won't get lynched today? thats a lot of questions that you're asking people asking questions is easy On November 15 2012 09:09 Clarity_nl wrote: I feel I am at a disadvantage, not having a natural meta awareness about most people in this thread. I do try to read people's older games after I am done reading through their filter, but I just read their filter, which means their posts lose context.. somewhat. That said, marv's case makes a lot of sense. I mean, he used the word propensity, how can I resist. ##Unvote ##Vote Z-BosoN this is super easy "oh i dont know meta but this case is good" lol, super easy and non-committal. On November 15 2012 10:09 Clarity_nl wrote: Okay, well first off unvote Blazing because that's not happening. Read Hapa's cases, debears responses and cases on hopeless. Read marv's case on zbo. Your choices currently are: debears, hopeless, zbo townie townie and townie wow choosing between three townies day 1, our town must be doing pretty bad right? On November 15 2012 10:33 Clarity_nl wrote: Marv you've been super quiet. Thoughts? Where the hell is thrawn? like this one, this is only okay if you're actually doing stuff too lol lol lol On November 15 2012 10:57 Clarity_nl wrote: No, this is terrible. 3 minutes before lynch and a hapa wagon has started. No one has made a good case on him all day. On November 15 2012 10:58 Clarity_nl wrote: Your case was nothing but OMGUS okay this one is important - it's not "he's town, there's no reason to think he's scum" or "i have a town read on him because of a reason" or even "i have a town read on him because i'm mafia dislexic". It's "there is not a good case on him." That's how scum think buddies. they don't think "is he town or not" they think "is the case good or not". On November 15 2012 11:21 Clarity_nl wrote: Ok. Couple of thoughts without looking back. The assumption that everyone who jumped on hapa is town is bad. Odds are, the last two people who jumped on hapa are town. To me it seems likely that there is scum in the first couple of people jumping on hapa, because they didn't expect (like me) him to get lynched. Easy townie points with nearly no risk. Marv was unusually quiet near the end. BH said jump on hapa, lol jk wait d2, lol lets jump on hapa ##vote Hapa. Now he's claiming town credit? Ehhh.... quick! gotta throw some water on this town fire! like, I'm okay with the "that was stupid" post someone else talked about, but this is pretty quick after a godfather lynch to start trying to vaguely and generally discredit the voters on that lynch. On November 15 2012 21:47 Clarity_nl wrote: I just don't get this series of events. I agree that the "scumslip" thing was suspicious but we were waaaayy too close to deadline. On November 15 2012 21:48 Clarity_nl wrote: And this is coming from a claimed JK who is now claiming VT. With his reasoning being that he wouldn't be active. Only he was. On November 15 2012 21:54 Clarity_nl wrote: The dumbest part for me is that I asked him to post his night action Then a mere 3.5 hours later he posts Why would a VT blazinghand want to answer my question so quickly and with so much conviction if he planned on spilling the beans on his claim. On November 15 2012 22:07 Clarity_nl wrote: Okay well.... this hurts my brain. I don't see a motivation for any alignment or role. Either he's putting too much value on himself as town or he's making a really dumb play as scum. Yes, he saved himself D1, but he's just sewing chaos all over the place. Today I won't be as active. I'll actually be around, but playing some dota2/cs:go, will check the thread inbetween, and will ofcourse post reads before night ends just in case. On November 15 2012 22:20 Clarity_nl wrote: Can you find a scum angle on backing out of your claim during N1? It's major WIFOM at best. Which actually makes me think it would be a good move for scum, since trying to keep your story straight as scum JK is hard. We have quite a bit of time, I'll mull it over. then there's a loooooooot of talking about blazinghand's retarded fake fake claim retardation but he never actually puts it together and says "this makes him scum" or "this makes him town" or "this is important because reasons" more easy stuff. okay holy shit his filter is long. i don't have enough time to keep going through it bit by bit right now. but look, he just keeps going like this - easy thing after easy thing, barely anything serious or difficult, never really putting himself out there. the only posts he makes that are really meaty are his terribad cases on me. like seriously, the only times when he goes through something and takes an in depth look at it point by point are when he is tunneling me for terrible reasons, and when he's defending himself from a case (mostly by raging at it). for the rest of this post I'm just going to be putting in highlights On November 18 2012 15:04 Clarity_nl wrote: Currently the holy town trinity is iamp, hope and myself. Currently the scum that looks to be buddying up with a scummy town to look more towny is Djo or SnB. Currently Kickstart, Darth, debears, blazing are ALL not contributing. And it's driving me up the goddamn wall. lol lol lol On November 18 2012 20:31 Clarity_nl wrote: How come there are so many lazy town in this game, but not the fucking newbies I played in. Kickstarter, I've explained before why just sitting back and saying who you think is scummy is not enough. Darth, you said the only person you're willing to lynch over zbo was me, make a fucking case. Hopeless, seriously dude you are the closest we have to confirmed town, you have nothing to fear, this is the perfect time to read read read and get a read going. I would also like everyone who voted zbo to explain why they didnt switch after his death post. Did it LOOK like a fucking WIFOM bomb? He called the towny players town and he called the scummy players scum. yeah i talked about this one already On November 19 2012 10:42 Clarity_nl wrote: How is it wrong that the scum don't want the cop dead WTF. They have to blindly kill people that AREN'T you or BH. The cop checks the scum, it's game over. #1 priority for scum is to kill the cop. He doesn't give a shit about confirmed townies right now. Am I really the only one seeing this? Hopeless you might be confirmed townie but what have you done with it so far? You have a vote, that's it. pretty mad about night kill speculation good thing bh persuaded him to kill the cop instead of bh lol yeah okay that's all you get for now hope you're happy and if you are voting for me you're stupid. | ||
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On November 20 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote: first the screenshot unsportsmanship, now this. ._. we need to talk about this. your reaction to the fact that people can lie about irl stuff is to ignore them. my reaction is different, it's just to not lie and assume people will know that. like, i don't understand how demonstrating that i'm telling the truth is "unsportsmanlike", that's stupid. if I say something that is verifiable and someone says "he wasn't telling the truth" then how is it unsportsmanlike of me to verify it? you're being stupid. | ||
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On November 20 2012 06:25 Clarity_nl wrote: So your case is this: Quote all the quotes Comment LOLOLOLOL Say I'm taking the easy road? wow that was pretty fast did you actually read the posts I pointed out and make up your mind about whether they are (a) substantially engaging the thread, making it easy for people to read you and hold you accountable for your positions, advancing the collective scum hunt, etcetera, or (b) scummy attempts to take the easy path to looking townie? i don't think you did, i think you just skimmed it and though "oh hey this guy who i've been tunneling made a case on me, let's go tunnel some more because that's easier than actually engaging that case" | ||
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i'm demonstrating through multiple quotations how your filter takes an overall cavalier attitude towards the game, whose objective is to seem town rather than to actually be town | ||
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##unvote ##vote: clarity | ||
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On November 20 2012 06:37 Clarity_nl wrote: I could quote iamp's filter and say he's trying to come across as town. Doesn't make him scum. Your point is dumb and it's clear to anyone I've been trying hard this game. Unlike you. okay then do it but that's not the entirety of it - you have to demonstrate that he's doing easy things to come across as town without actually being townie/promoting town objectives in a substantive way. | ||
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On November 20 2012 07:03 Hopeless1der wrote: SnB, did you read through all 5 other players at all? How did you conclude that clarity was the scummiest? when the game is this long reading through a filter takes a lot of time. i decided clarity would be first priority because he's the only z-boson voter from day 1 who is still alive and not me. darthpunk is my second highest priority, we gave him a lot of leeway on day 1 because he was focusing on winning his other game but i'm not sure if his posting has really changed since then, if i can scrape some time together i'd like to take a close look at his filter. looking at clarity took pretty long because of the large volume of posts | ||
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then gone for a while then back I like that darthpunk actually did something, that was refreshing. and it looks like the aggro darthpunk i remember from back when. I don't have enough time to read one of you monster-filter-ers so I decided I'm going to give kickstart a close look and see what comes up | ||
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there's no way that a super nub starts out day 1 of like his first game with a mongo bus his stuff about hapa sounds genuine still i'm only part way through so let's see what it looks like when the chaos begins | ||
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On November 15 2012 10:32 Kickstart wrote: Well sheeeeet. Seems we can't get enough votes onto hopeless, who out of the ~4 people who are getting all the votes at the moment is who I would really go for. I DO NOT want to vote ZB, so time to vote DarthPunk. ## unvote ##vote: DarthPunk this logic is fine, even though the reasons for lynching zb at the time were better than the reasons for lynching dp, he was willing to go out on a limb to defend his townread, that's good On November 15 2012 10:57 Kickstart wrote: what a shitstorm this is ## Unvote ## Vote hapa oh i guess this is the chaos going down okay that was too quick I'll do someone longer next. conclusion: it's true that kickstart really hasn't been engaged as much after day 1, but I really don't see his day 1 coming from scum. | ||
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here's what I don't like: - his early list post. he said he was willing to vote for me due to my d1 play, but didn't give any reason beyond that - just gliding along with town sentiment. On November 16 2012 13:20 Djodref wrote: Let me start with some quick post about my town reads. Hopeless is as close as possible to be a confirmed vig. I have played with him in Looney and I don't feel him being very different from the town Hopeless I know. His breadcrumbs make sense and I don't see the SK wanting to shot one more scummy player after bowser lynch on D1. Town reads on zbo and DP confirmed by the fact that they were likely to be mislynches pushed by the mafia. Slight town reads on Clarity and debears because I know them both quite well and I didn't get bad vibes from their posts so far. Newbie town read on Kickstart. I didn’t look into his filter much because. So I usually get good reads on newbies I don't like this post. There was no need to give a list of town reads, especially not right when he jumped into the game. On November 16 2012 13:25 Djodref wrote: I want to lynch BH because he is not showing town behavior at all. Trolly and disruptive, fakeclaiming, backing off and claiming again. I understand it's unlikely to display such play as scum but it would be the same from a JK. I have to look again at S&B again though... Anyway I don't see how we can loose this game now so I would almost expect the last scum to concede now. I just don't like this post, but I'm having a hard time explaining why it's different from the reasons why I wanted to lynch BH. I think it's because my reasons for lynching BH involved an explanation of how and why he would be doing this stuff as scum, whereas djo's was more like "this doesn't make sense let's kill it." On November 17 2012 04:20 Djodref wrote: So, if BH is the third scum, he is the role blocker and he was basically exposing himself to a rightful counterclaim from a possible JK at 42%... It's quite a risk to take. I still don't like BH play at all but I understand better why we shouldn't lynch him today. I hope someone else find the setup speculation interesting ^^ ## Unvote this logic is quite bad, since it assumes BH would have thought about the odds before fakeclaiming. know thy enemy young padawan. Stuff I do like On November 17 2012 14:41 Djodref wrote: Yeah, you're right about the SK thing, I didn't think it through. But let's take a look again at your claim. It was halfway through D1 and you must have felt some pressure to claim, regardless of your alignment. Town motivations
Mafia motivations(you are the roleblocker in this case)
What I don't like at all is the follow-up you give to your claim. As S&B pointed it out, you keep on saying how uncontested your claim is and you lynched Hapa when it was not sure at all that you were going to lynch him. I'm not wasting my time, I want people to understand that you are scummy despite the circumstances ! this post seems like a reasonable step to re-evaluate what he was doing with BH. On November 19 2012 12:37 Djodref wrote: Anyway, a zero T setup would have less than 1% chance to get rolled at the beginning in a classic C9++ game and the probability is even lower with Keir generator because the one-shot roles are replaced by Ts. I wanted S&B to say this to me. I don't understand how S&B can have his vote on BH right now given the info we have. MVCCDTT makes more sense, in term of probability and in term of play. Your logic is fallacious right now S&B. Explain me how you can conclude that voting BH is still a good move now and I might unvote you. ##Vote S&B given how we were talking about the setup before, this is a reasonable reason for voting me (although he should unvote me now that I'm not voting for bh anymore) Stuff I don't dislike in djo's filter. - The setup speculation. Like, I don't think setup speculation is as bad as all of you guys seem to. In a semi-open setup where some information actually is known about the possibilities, it's an important tool for the town to use. It's not really "setup speculation" in the same way as you see it in themed games, where someone's like "wow x power would be so imba without y counter, y must be on the scum team" or whatever. In a setup like this it's more like "setup extrapolation" than speculation. - The so-called tunneling on BH. There were totally valid reasons to be voting and pursuing BH, and when I read the stuff in djo's filter about BH I get an impression of someone who is very reluctant to change their position but eventually does so for genuine reasons. Conclusion: The "stuff I don't like" outweighs the "Stuff I do like" here. I especially don't like the two list posts, both because they're list posts without much thought and for more specific reasons (one was only town reads, one gave un-reasoned scum reads that kind of just fit in with town sentiment at the time). But I don't get the same impression of overall "scum motivation" when I read his filter that I do when I read Clarity's filter. I can't say that I have a "town read" on djo but I strongly prefer lynching Clarity first. | ||
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On November 21 2012 01:15 strongandbig wrote: oh wow actually this is going to be really easy there's no way that a super nub starts out day 1 of like his first game with a mongo bus his stuff about hapa sounds genuine still i'm only part way through so let's see what it looks like when the chaos begins btw "super nub" isn't meant as an insult just a descriptor for an inexperienced player | ||
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yeah but I have to go do work now, ttyl | ||
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if you guys want to lynch me so i can go play chrono trigger, i won't mind clarity is the scum tho | ||
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On November 21 2012 08:21 Hopeless1der wrote: You'll play both games and you'll like it. q__Q | ||
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On November 21 2012 08:24 Blazinghand wrote: SnB as much as I hate to say it I kinda don't want to lynch you any more today You've generally been interacting with iamp as though he's a townie. Do you agree with my assessment of his play this game? I've enjoyed your town-read on kickstart, he definitely shouldn't be lynched. If we can nail down 3 town-reads, we win. i've had a town feeling about him but I don't really have a good reason for it, other than the hapahauli lynch and just his general sort of attitude. He's experienced enough to maybe bus in that position, so I don't really feel like he's super clearly town, but I'm comfortable enough with him to want to focus on other people | ||
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On November 21 2012 09:31 Clarity_nl wrote: I think people's issue with an snb lynch might be too "it's too easy". Which is a terrible way of thinking. pretty sure hte problem is that i'm town not that it's an easy lynch | ||
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On November 21 2012 09:33 Blazinghand wrote: so Kickstart here's what I suspect will happen over the course of these cycles, assuming we only mislynch: Today: lynch one from SnB+Clarity+Djo+DP Tonight: I'm shot Tomorrow: lynch one more from SnB+Clarity+Djo+DP Tomorrow night: Hopeless is shot Final day: Kickstart, Iamperfection, and the last 2 from the 4 scummy players are alive-- 3 town, 1 scum. Assuming we only mislynch until MYLO, we'll have a MYLO with you, iamp, and probably Djo+DP. I'm very sure scum will be shooting me and hopeless tonight and tomorrow night (though maybe not in that order). So we have 3 lynches into 4 players to find 1 scum. Any town or scum reads within those 4 will help us narrow it down. or we could just lynch clarity and win right now | ||
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this guy (bh amidoingitrite yet?) | ||
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On November 21 2012 09:48 Blazinghand wrote: So I'm about to cast my vote then I'm busy for about 2 hours. I'm voting for SnB or clarity, last chance to say something "blah blah townies f5 thread blah blah scummy blah" | ||
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On November 21 2012 09:48 Blazinghand wrote: So I'm about to cast my vote then I'm busy for about 2 hours. I'm voting for SnB or clarity, last chance to say something but actually: vote clefairy 2012 for scum! | ||
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On November 21 2012 09:53 Blazinghand wrote: Alright, well, I gotta run. Clarity I don't like how you acted towards hapa and crossfire. If you flip town, I'm sorry. But it's not over if you do. And honestly you're much more wily than Djo, DP, or SnB so between you and SnB I need to lynch you while I'm still alive. You might talk your way out of it after I'm dead. ##vote: Clarity_nl may the lord have mercy upon our souls idk man dp is pretty wily also ouch | ||
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This game kind of made me think about my townie philosophy a little bit. I've always believed that a townie's first duty is to keep from being mislynched, that doing your best to not be mislynched (whether it's by being self-evidently townie or by finding the real scum) is like the minimum and central core of town behavior. But this game, there's so much against me (my day 1 behavior, inexplicable town sentiment, and basically everyone having taken a stance that I'm scum at one point or another, making it easy for people to go after me without being inconsistent) that I worried about that. If I survive to MYLO, I would almost certainly be an easy target for a mislynch, giving scum the win. So I thought, maybe I should just give up, not try to defend myself today, not try to push cases on other people, just try to set up town to be better at LYLO. But now that I've thought about it, I've concluded that is definitely not true. Even if I accept that one of our two remaining lynches will be wasted on me, and we only have one real lynch to find scum. It's better that we use that one real lynch now, rather than wait until LYLO. There's a bunch of reasons for this. For one, nothing is pre-ordained - maybe, if I live to (M/L)YLO, by some long shot chance I'll be able to save the day and persuade the townyie(s) not to lynch me. But more importantly, if we only have one lynch to find the real scum, it's better to use it now while we still have at least one confirmed townie. A confirmed townie isn't just an asset because you can cross them off the suspect list. A confirmed townie is a source of reasoning and analysis that all the other townies know they can trust. In my opinion, having a confirmed townie around late in the game is very helpful in terms of sorting between good and bad cases, and organizing the town so they have the best chance to actually lynch scum. So rest assured, I will continue to do my best to make up for how I started this game and to not get mislynched, today or ever. | ||
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On November 21 2012 22:34 Djodref wrote: @ S&B Why did you go dig into your own filter the most incriminating posts against you ? Why did you include them with other points regarding the Kenpachi rule and what your play was about during D1 ? Could you explain your motivation for it ? why the hell wouldn't I? so actually, there's a couple of reasons. If I point them out, explain why they're suspicious or incriminating, and also explain where they came from in terms of my mindset and motivations, I can do a better job of persuading people that I'm not scum than I could if someone else pointed them out first and put their own spin on it. That's the "political" aspect of analysis, it's always better to define yourself. That's an argument for doing this in any self-defense, regardless of your alignment. The second reason is that it creates a sort of "intentional vulnerability" in my case. If I go through my filter pointing out and explaining which posts I see as the best reasons to suspect me, they had god damned better be the scummiest posts in my filter. If I do that selectively, and highlight and explain some suspicious posts but ignore others, then my defense goes from being "an honest and open attempt to explain and clarify my filter" to being "misdirection, attempting to get people to focus on the scummy stuff in my filter that I do have a good explanation for, and to get them to ignore the scummy stuff that I don't have a good explanation for." So that's the argument in favor of doing this type of self-analysis when you're a townie under suspicion, and that makes it super risky to do if you're actually scum under suspicion. | ||
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Does it look to anyone else like DP and Djo are setting up for an endgame 1v1? I mean, like they're assuming I'll get lynched and then they'll have to argue which of the two of them is the last lynch? I suppose this is possible if the two of them are both townies who have town reads on me. But it also makes sense for scum to be doing right now, since he'll presumably have to face a M/LYLO with iamperfection and/or kickstarter who both have really good town cred right now. So how do we decide if it's "they're both townies who have town reads on me" versus "one of them is a townie with a town read on me, and one of them is scum"? Personally, I would put a lot of weight on the fact that djodref has been saying I'm one of his top scum reads for pretty much the entire game, but now he seems to be assuming that he needs to deal with a 1v1 vs darthpunk at L/MYLO. | ||
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On November 21 2012 22:42 Djodref wrote: @ S&B We still have 2 confirmed townies at the moment. When are you going to be available during this mafia night ? in a word: intermittently. It depends on work. Djodref: right now, do you think I'm scum, and why? If it's because I've been more active when I'm under pressure, which seems to be the popular reason these days, can you tell me why that is a characteristic trait of scum and not of town, especially in the light of my town philosophy which I've posted above (and which I've consistently advocated across many games) ? | ||
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On November 21 2012 22:56 Djodref wrote: @ S&B So, if I had noticed these posts as being the most incriminating against you while skimming your filter, and then realized that you had preemptively given your reasons to post these, I should conclude that your self-introspection was honest ? "Big plays" That's risky and ballsy play, regardless of your alignment. I don't understand the town motivation for it... Wouldn't it be better to see if people are actually going to go after you for what could be really incriminating or just silly reasons ? You could tell the difference on who is going to push a mislynch and who is honestly going after you. Here, if you are town, you are just giving ammo to both town and mafia against you. The only good thing is that you already gave your answer for it, but you that something you should do for both alignment. The interactions you had with Hapa, especially when you call him scummiest out of the blue, that doesn't look good. Didn't you reproach the same kind of thing to Clarity in your case against him ? my case on clarity wasn't just "that he was posting fluff" or "that he wasn't giving good reasons," it was that in his filter I got a consistent overall impression that he was doing things which would make him look townie without actually helping the town. It was based on my perception that he was being deceptive. Clearly, since he flipped town, I was wrong. But I don't think my case on him applies to me. It's true that I didn't actually help the town much during the first day, although as I explained, I think I was doing more than purely trolling (at least, in terms of my thought process). But I definitely wasn't trying to create a town-looking thread persona or deceive people into thinking that I was town. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On November 21 2012 23:54 Hopeless1der wrote: I'd just like to apologize for turning back into a lurker. I'm sure that's pissed some people off given that I'm pretty much confirmed town and doing nothing more to help. I wholeheartedly would vouch for iamperfection being town this game. But he is the only player 'eligible' for lynch that I am that confident in. I'm going to re-read all of day1 in as much context as I can before the deadline and hopefully have some concrete reads on who is still alive. please reread my two defense posts before you make up your mind based only on day 1. I've admitted my day 1 was pretty bad but I don't think that alone should determine your read on me at this point. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
* * * *L * * *\__/ stupid tl whitespace mumble grumble | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On November 23 2012 06:24 Clarity_nl wrote: Okay so let's take my case on snb for example. I make the case, no one disagrees, I move on. I let the case speak for me, if my case is good I won't need to spam X IS SCUM OMG As for the questioning stuff, it all came together in my list of reads posts. I can definitely see your point though. nah this just doesn't work if you have a scum read you're pretty confident in, you have to herd the town like cats. You have to keep pushing people to really think about your case. That's like the biggest difference between decent town players and really good town players. everyone is right sometimes and wrong sometimes but the really good players get the lynch when they're right. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
#swag | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Actually, I think this is much more in the spirit of mafia than what you suggest. Mafia how we play it is supposed to be about behavioral analysis and interpretation, and it should be limited to what goes on in the thread. Basically, in my opinion when someone starts calling me out about inactivity that was caused by other time commitments, they're the one who is bringing outside-the-game stuff into the game, and my reacting to prove my honesty is more legitimate than what they did. | ||
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