Whose Line Is It Anyway? Mafia!

On October 31 2012 23:04 Chezinu wrote:
I am innocent along with 4 performers. Just follow along with me. Knocking out 4 performs, 3 red ones, and 1 host leaves 3 audience members. Let's subtract me and that's 2 audience members.

On February 06 2012 21:45 Adam4167 wrote:
All this setup piffle is useless and counterproductive. Both sides can post filler about the setup. Let power roles make their own judgement calls, let the night actions unfold as they do, and spend your time doing something that will actually lead to scum kills, like prodding people or reading filters. In the spirit of that:

Kurumi, you soft-defend Schworz twice in a single post, also indicate that vigi's should avoid him and the rest of your post is basic setup waffle. I don't remember you being this wishy-washy in TL50 either, with statements like 'I find it funny that...' and 'I just ponder', you sure come off that way now. What are you playing at?

Tobberoth, you say you're considering a vote on Kenpachi, yet you want to wait until 'discussion comes up later in the day'. This comes off as quite passive and almost like you're waiting for a bandwagon to pickup speed before you seal the deal. Why not just vote him now if you find him suspicious, as you claim, then move it later as more information presents itself?

Ico, policy lynches are retarded... just no.

Jaybrundage, I know you haven't even posted yet, but we've never been the same team. Don't see why this game would be any different. Have my vote!

##Vote: jaybrundage

On April 09 2012 00:12 Adam4167 wrote:
Risen, I don't agree with what you are saying in regards to EchelonTee. You are voting him based on semantics over whether calling someone suspicious is an accusation. I think your case is paper thin and the fact that it gathered additional votes is concerning.


Fourface, posting cases riddled with sarcasm is not helpful at all. It clouds the point you are trying to make and makes reading your posts more difficult then necessary. Stop it.




Tunkeg, in this post you mention the 'back and forth' between ET and Risen yet you don't comment on either's alignment or your thoughts on their dispute. What are your thoughts on both of them?

Lynching Jackal over him having a poor performance this year is ridiculous. We are not here to lynch bad players, only scum.

On November 02 2012 08:26 Adam4167 wrote:
Back with my thoughts on Mementoss' Keirathi case: Mementoss you say that Keirathi does not care if he is to be lynched, yet that is not indicative of alignment and I would wager entirely untrue as either alignment has a vested interest in not being lynched.

Canned peaches - Accusing Keirathi of being wishy-washy by using the term 'weird' is just plain hypocritical, as you yourself did the exact thing here:




Dogs are awesome - Granted I don't like Keirathi's laziness - something I already touched on when I was conversing with him - but this is the only part of your case that actually resonates with me.

Eventually, I find your case to be mostly padded and does not do a good job of illustrating why Keirathi is scum and only scum, hence I think you're faking it.

On November 02 2012 00:32 strongandbig wrote:
Blazinghand, I am not saying you are violating the "mafia rules" or being "immoral" as the mafia community would see it. Churlish is a better adjective to describe your behavior than "cheating" would be. Dastardly, you're not being. Essentially, I think that "we joined this game to have fun with minigames in a mafia context, and just ignoring them isn't in the spirit of the game." For sure, you're well within your rights and the game rules to do what you've been doing, but I think the game would be more fun all around if we were all trying to follow the minigame rules and I hope the incentives to do so are stronger next time around.

Going on to Adam. His posts this game "sound weirder" or "sound less genuine" to me than anyone else's except perhaps crossfire, who's playing the mad poet or something like that. It's hard to say whether that's because he's having a hard time posting naturally within the context of the minigame, or if it's because he is uncomfortable being scum or because he's not "being genuine" (I think that's how Sandroba described his scumhunting in some recent game I was following, reading people's posts and looking for people not being genuine etc).

---

Just read through his filter a couple of times, it's not very long.

K, here's one thing - he starts off with his "meta argument" on BKE, but then drops the read for no reason when he moves on to mementoss. Later, he says "BKE isn't scum to him," I would very much like to know what in BKE's filter gave him that impression because (as I outlined in my previous post) BKE's filter looks pretty terrible to me, and the worst parts are the parts that came after Adam's "meta read".

Mementoss case, I find pretty unpersuasive, I think that comparing pre-game and in-game enthusiasm levels is a valid tactic. "Not posting much of value" or "not having strong opinions" can be a decent case to make if it's clear and pronounced but it's hardly unique to Mementoss at the moment, I would contend that BKE, Djagulingu, maybe hopeless also fall into that category.

Oh, something else - he promises very early on to be like super active, but he is far less active than many other people.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, however, his claims about the meta component to your case are pretty compelling. Qualifying that - I know your case is not mainly based on meta anymore. Really, however, unless you disagree with him that his more recent games are different from your claim about his meta, it should be recognized that that element of the case on him is weak.

Something else you argue - he did originally take a position against BKE and later backtrack on it. Though I've said above that I don't understand why he backtracked, and though I really want to hear his reasoning, and though I think it's scummy to backtrack from one position and jump on another one without explaining yourself, I do think that at least taking a position is better than not taking a position, even if there is scummy backtracking.

Ultimately, here's where I stand. Voting for BKE because I think he's scummier - his positions are less both in number and firmness, and there's also the factor of him doing what I believe is "smokescreening" by talking so much about "how important it is for people to vote in both threads" and then about "how people didn't understand what he meant when he was talking about how important it is for people to vote in both threads", neither of which matter very much. With that said, however, I think a lot of what you say about Adam makes sense, and I wouldn't strenuously object to voting him if that's necessary to get a majority.

On November 04 2012 04:17 strongandbig wrote:


I bet you're pretty used to clearing shit up, know what I mean?

Cleaning the poop deck if you know what I mean? On the pirate ship? In the blockbuster movie, Ass Pirates of the Carribean?

+ Show Spoiler +

Anyway I'm taking a look at Mementoss's filter, since there's momentum building quickly towards his lynch and I want to be sure whether I agree with it.

Yesterday I pushed pretty hard against the case on Mementoss. I'm definitely not the only one who though it was terrible, and there were a bunch of things that made me feel that way. The strongest point in the case yesterday was a "general feeling that Mementoss was being wishy-washy and non-committal" - some of the specific points were just pretty bad, like the stuff about Mementoss's change in targets from crossfire to Keirathi, and I thought we had several more likely scum candidates. Combine that with the fact that Chezinu had voted Mementoss for essentially no reason, and that my top scum read BKE was pushing for a Mementoss lynch, and my thinking yesterday was that Mementoss would be a mislynch.

This Gonzaw vote stuff seems pretty convincing, however. One point worth noting - Gonzaw used his time-out as a reason not to vote until later, but iGrok specifically said earlier in the game that you can still vote during time-out. I can't really see any reason for Gonzaw to have voted the way he did other than that he felt stuck voting for Mementoss but didn't actually want him to get lynched.

So with those two points in mind - yesterday I thought Mementoss would be a mislynch, today there's some compelling new evidence - I'm taking a much closer read through Mementoss's filter. The Gonzaw vote evidence by itself is compelling, but it's not sufficient for me to vote on if Mementoss's filter really does look townie; Gonzaw can't have known he would get vigged, but if he was being really clever he could have preparing for his own potential future lynch, trying to leave evidence in his filter falsely incriminating a townie. So what I'm looking for is other evidence of a scum mindset, scum motivation, etcetera in Mementoss's own posts.

---

(1) There's the change in opinion about whether or not it's scummy for people to mess up the minigame. I know that changes in opinion to follow the current town consensus can be a scum trait, but I kind of went through a similar thought process. So this is a point to consider but I'm not convinced by it.

(2) I could read this as coming from scum, regardless of what crossfire's alignment actually is. The actual argument, "crossfire is posting a lot of illegible bullshit to muck up town," is a legitimate one. However, he starts the paragraph where he makes his best argument to justify his vote with "this is more likely xfire posting as town". This doesn't feel like something a townie would do to me - if a townie genuinely was unsure or leaning town on crossfire's alignment, they wouldn't drop a vote, and if they were sure enough to drop a vote, they wouldn't start off by saying "well this person is probably town, but..." The scum motivation to do this, on the other hand, is (a) if crossfire is town, to give him some wiggle room later if he gets blamed for lynching a townie, or (b) if crossfire is scum, to establish some distancing while setting himself up to unvote and remove the pressure later.

Then he makes a giant case on Keirathi, which I've put in a spoiler on account of its length:

+ Show Spoiler +
However, literally two posts later on in his filter, we go to this:


So, at first I was like "well regardless of alignment, players should want to stay alive - townies should always try to avoid a mislynch, and since Mementoss was the main other lynch choice from BKE, it doesn't have to be scummy to switch to BKE." But there's a key step missing here - after dropping down that huge case, telling us all how persuaded he is that Keirathi is scum, he puts zero further effort into getting keirathi to be a lynch possibility. If a townie was this convinced that he'd found scum, then his primary responsibility would be to put some work into pushing that lynch, or at the very least into exploring whether other people were willing to vote with him. Instead of doing any of that, he just drops down a big case and leaves it there to sit in his filter, then switches off of it with little to no comment when he needs to save himself.

also note the "agree with snb's analysis" without any elaboration or inserting his own analysis, and later on he says "BH is the only guy I have a good town read on" - not a tremendously strong point, but it does kind of smell like buddying people with thread presence who weren't pushing for his lynch.

---

So in conclusion: Between the way he phrased his early case on crossfire and the disconnect between his attitude towards Keirathi vs how I feel a townie would have behaved, I think there is enough scum motivation in his filter to corroborate the evidence of Gonzaw's voting behavior, which other people have talked about before.

Therefore:
##vote: Mementoss

On November 02 2012 19:49 strongandbig wrote:
Alright everyone lets doooo thiiiiiis

everyone got 1000 points last night

give them to me

On November 02 2012 22:11 strongandbig wrote:
Yeah so no one has posted yet. Kind of annoying.

So here's why you should give me your points:
(1) I am town.
(2) I can do bad things to scum with your points.
(3) points are way more valuable when concentrated than they are when spread out.

On November 02 2012 22:12 strongandbig wrote:
another topic for discussion tonight: what the fuck do we do with Chezinu? He totally ignored both the serious and silly questions in my post to him, I'm really not sure what to do to get him more involved in the game so we can actually maybe try to get a read on him

On November 03 2012 04:09 strongandbig wrote:


I'm not going to comment on exactly what I will do with the points because I want to make it as hard as possible for scum to respond. But Adam will be on the list of targets for sure. (WIFOM that scum team)

People, I don't know if you realize but I'm dead serious here. Like I said above, here are the simple facts:

(1) I am town
(2) I can use points to do bad things to scum
(3) the points are a lot more powerful if we concentrate them than they are if they're spread apart.


It's getting kind of close to deadline. For this to work well I need as many points as possible so send me your friggen points.

On November 03 2012 04:24 strongandbig wrote:
Keirathi, here's the post I made yesterday in response to BH's case about Adam.




After this post, Adam has posted a few more times. Most of the "word volume" in there was in a couple of big posts about Gonzaw's vote on Mementoss. The main thing is a connection theory, I guess, based on the argument "mementoss is scum, gonzaw withheld his vote on mementoss until he was sure that it wouldn't get mementoss lynched."

The problem with this is - I find his mementoss case not compelling, but he's still using it as the basis to build theories.

(that said - his gonzaw stuff is actually pretty interesting. Regardless of mementoss's alignment, it is pretty odd how Gonzaw withheld his vote like that. Even without the connection theory, there could be scum motivation there - maybe Gonzaw felt obligated to vote mementoss given his earlier posts, but didn't want to be held responsible for voting a townie?)

Then there's this post from Adam, which is scummy as all fuck IMO:



like a few things - "I don't post thoughts for the sake of just posting," if he was Gonzaw then this would be a valid sentiment but from the vast majority of players, more thread presence as a townie makes it easier to establish your innocence and helps the town.

Second, "if you want me to talk about anyone specific then ask" - I could be going against popular opinion here, but I think that while trying to get specific players to talk about each other is a townie thing to do - well, at least if you choose the two players correctly - I don't think just going "If you push me on something then I'll talk about it, but otherwise I'm gonna keep my mouth shut" is a very town thing to do.

On November 04 2012 04:17 strongandbig wrote:


I bet you're pretty used to clearing shit up, know what I mean?

Cleaning the poop deck if you know what I mean? On the pirate ship? In the blockbuster movie, Ass Pirates of the Carribean?

+ Show Spoiler +

Anyway I'm taking a look at Mementoss's filter, since there's momentum building quickly towards his lynch and I want to be sure whether I agree with it.

Yesterday I pushed pretty hard against the case on Mementoss. I'm definitely not the only one who though it was terrible, and there were a bunch of things that made me feel that way. The strongest point in the case yesterday was a "general feeling that Mementoss was being wishy-washy and non-committal" - some of the specific points were just pretty bad, like the stuff about Mementoss's change in targets from crossfire to Keirathi, and I thought we had several more likely scum candidates. Combine that with the fact that Chezinu had voted Mementoss for essentially no reason, and that my top scum read BKE was pushing for a Mementoss lynch, and my thinking yesterday was that Mementoss would be a mislynch.

This Gonzaw vote stuff seems pretty convincing, however. One point worth noting - Gonzaw used his time-out as a reason not to vote until later, but iGrok specifically said earlier in the game that you can still vote during time-out. I can't really see any reason for Gonzaw to have voted the way he did other than that he felt stuck voting for Mementoss but didn't actually want him to get lynched.

So with those two points in mind - yesterday I thought Mementoss would be a mislynch, today there's some compelling new evidence - I'm taking a much closer read through Mementoss's filter. The Gonzaw vote evidence by itself is compelling, but it's not sufficient for me to vote on if Mementoss's filter really does look townie; Gonzaw can't have known he would get vigged, but if he was being really clever he could have preparing for his own potential future lynch, trying to leave evidence in his filter falsely incriminating a townie. So what I'm looking for is other evidence of a scum mindset, scum motivation, etcetera in Mementoss's own posts.

---

(1) There's the change in opinion about whether or not it's scummy for people to mess up the minigame. I know that changes in opinion to follow the current town consensus can be a scum trait, but I kind of went through a similar thought process. So this is a point to consider but I'm not convinced by it.

(2) I could read this as coming from scum, regardless of what crossfire's alignment actually is. The actual argument, "crossfire is posting a lot of illegible bullshit to muck up town," is a legitimate one. However, he starts the paragraph where he makes his best argument to justify his vote with "this is more likely xfire posting as town". This doesn't feel like something a townie would do to me - if a townie genuinely was unsure or leaning town on crossfire's alignment, they wouldn't drop a vote, and if they were sure enough to drop a vote, they wouldn't start off by saying "well this person is probably town, but..." The scum motivation to do this, on the other hand, is (a) if crossfire is town, to give him some wiggle room later if he gets blamed for lynching a townie, or (b) if crossfire is scum, to establish some distancing while setting himself up to unvote and remove the pressure later.

Then he makes a giant case on Keirathi, which I've put in a spoiler on account of its length:

+ Show Spoiler +
However, literally two posts later on in his filter, we go to this:


So, at first I was like "well regardless of alignment, players should want to stay alive - townies should always try to avoid a mislynch, and since Mementoss was the main other lynch choice from BKE, it doesn't have to be scummy to switch to BKE." But there's a key step missing here - after dropping down that huge case, telling us all how persuaded he is that Keirathi is scum, he puts zero further effort into getting keirathi to be a lynch possibility. If a townie was this convinced that he'd found scum, then his primary responsibility would be to put some work into pushing that lynch, or at the very least into exploring whether other people were willing to vote with him. Instead of doing any of that, he just drops down a big case and leaves it there to sit in his filter, then switches off of it with little to no comment when he needs to save himself.

also note the "agree with snb's analysis" without any elaboration or inserting his own analysis, and later on he says "BH is the only guy I have a good town read on" - not a tremendously strong point, but it does kind of smell like buddying people with thread presence who weren't pushing for his lynch.

---

So in conclusion: Between the way he phrased his early case on crossfire and the disconnect between his attitude towards Keirathi vs how I feel a townie would have behaved, I think there is enough scum motivation in his filter to corroborate the evidence of Gonzaw's voting behavior, which other people have talked about before.

Therefore:
##vote: Mementoss

On November 03 2012 04:24 strongandbig wrote:
Keirathi, here's the post I made yesterday in response to BH's case about Adam.




After this post, Adam has posted a few more times. Most of the "word volume" in there was in a couple of big posts about Gonzaw's vote on Mementoss. The main thing is a connection theory, I guess, based on the argument "mementoss is scum, gonzaw withheld his vote on mementoss until he was sure that it wouldn't get mementoss lynched."

The problem with this is - I find his mementoss case not compelling, but he's still using it as the basis to build theories.

(that said - his gonzaw stuff is actually pretty interesting. Regardless of mementoss's alignment, it is pretty odd how Gonzaw withheld his vote like that. Even without the connection theory, there could be scum motivation there - maybe Gonzaw felt obligated to vote mementoss given his earlier posts, but didn't want to be held responsible for voting a townie?)

Then there's this post from Adam, which is scummy as all fuck IMO:



like a few things - "I don't post thoughts for the sake of just posting," if he was Gonzaw then this would be a valid sentiment but from the vast majority of players, more thread presence as a townie makes it easier to establish your innocence and helps the town.

Second, "if you want me to talk about anyone specific then ask" - I could be going against popular opinion here, but I think that while trying to get specific players to talk about each other is a townie thing to do - well, at least if you choose the two players correctly - I don't think just going "If you push me on something then I'll talk about it, but otherwise I'm gonna keep my mouth shut" is a very town thing to do.

On November 07 2012 11:17 strongandbig wrote:
World's worst type of flooring surface: The flayed skins of your enemies. Believe me, I've tried it, it's slippery as fuck and it smells terrible after a few weeks.

So first off - really sorry that it took me so long to get in here, I should at least have dropped in with an update and an action claim so you guys could work on that. I've been kind of fucked up, it's crunch time at work and today I was supposed to transition to the night shift, so I spent most of the day lying in bed trying to sleep and feeling crummy. Now I'm sitting at a computer feeling crummy, but at least the advantage of the night shift is that I can spend a little time on mafia...

(plus the election results keep distracting me QQ) (Romney - the candidate for, in the mafia parlance, the "informed minority")

---

Okay so first off - my night actions. My night actions were a little less successful tonight than last night; I did not get a hit notification, so I can't take responsibility for stopping another scum bullet. No townies died, which is all that really matters. I would like to know if either BH or hopeless took a hit, because if neither of them did then it probably means Drew Carrey is in the game and is bulletproof. I doubt he's an SK, because there have been zero non-vigi NKs, but given the weirdness in this game I could believe he has some kind of weird wincon involving points or the minigames or something.

So here's what I actually did - I splurged a shitload of points to become an "invincible super-investigator".

- I bought an extra life. I was bluffing about not doing it, I hoped I could psyche scum into shooting me again.
- I also used the "mirror" power. I was really hoping scum would shoot me, lol.
- I used "Track" on crossfire. I used this one to soak the roleblock. That worked, at least.
- I tried to use a DT check on crossfire. Unfortunately, this was next in line and got roleblocked as well. I guess if I could figure out that buying a useless power would eat up a roleblock, scum could as well.
- I used a DT check on Chezinu. (he came back town, lol). I thought about using a vig shot, but I didn't feel quite as confident about it as BH did.
- I also used a "Track" on Adam. I didn't get any results. I wanted to save some points, which is why I used "track" instead of a "DT check," and he was my third scum read after Chezinu and Crossfire.
- I bought the special "random powers" package. Kind of got fucked on that one. I'd rather not say exactly what I got there, because it will keep scum guessing, but if I used (it/any of them), (it/they) didn't give me any results.

I currently have 2500 points remaining. There's a very good reason why I'm saving them.

---

So here's the other reason it's taken me so long to post today: point claims. I've spent like an hour with a spreadsheet trying to figure this out.

Here's the kicker: There's a chance that everyone is telling the truth.

I'll just post the data:

Pts | Claim
N1:

1000 | earned myself
1000 | xfire
500 | Keirathi (confirmed-ish)
500 | stutters

Total points after N1: 3000
Points used N1: 1000 (tracker, veteran)


N2:
1000 | earned myself
1500 | keirathi (confirmed-ish)
1000 | stutters
1000 | xfire
Total points after N2: 6500
Points used N2: 5000
Total points after N2: 1500

As I was researching this post, I noticed that things didn't add up, so I PM'd iGrok and added
1000 | Adam (in thread on day 1)
Apparently I should have had 1000 more points day1 than I actually did. So now I have 2500 points.

SO: assuming that Chezinu never sent me points, and that Adam didn't send me points during N2, it's possible that everyone is telling the truth. Unfortunately, this isn't conclusive in either direction. Chezinu could easily have sent points my way without telling anyone, and Adam probably didn't think he was about to die to a vigshot.

World's worst medical treatment?