GSL Mini Mafia III

On October 20 2012 12:30 DarthPunk wrote:
Meh. It might dissuade him from fake claiming as scum later. Blues are going to claim if they need to regardless because it is the truth. Scum would find it much more uncomfortable to fake claim and lie about it when the lie is already in the thread and makes it a much less desirable proposition. It makes sense to me.
Obviously none of it matters now as I have had to go into length about it.

On October 21 2012 13:28 Keirathi wrote:
I don't really like Draz's explanation either.



First, unvoting isn't being "wishy-washy", assuming you explain yourself. But hell, its not like you even unvoted, nor was DP calling you out FOR unvoting. He was calling you out for leaving your vote on someone who you ostensibly don't believe is scum. It's not a "trap", because he hasn't said anything about you unvoting being scummy to begin with. Voting for someone isn't inherently scummy, obviously, but leaving your vote on someone that you don't have a scum read on is certainly on the scummy side (although, I will admit, that I've seen townies do it too. That doesn't make the action itself less scummy, just that townies can, at times, play scummily).

Second, putting pressure isn't scummy either. But, you're not actually putting pressure on him. You just parked a vote there and haven't done anything with it. THAT is scummy. What is the point of your vote right now?

On October 21 2012 14:34 Keirathi wrote:

Establishing yourself as town is at least as important as, if not more important than, good scum hunting.

On October 21 2012 23:36 DarthPunk wrote:


Really? I think voting for someone you think is town is a lynchable offense, The only reason that he is not getting lynched is that he is new and people are giving him the benefit of the doubt IMO.

I think Drazak is scum. I am not sure Keir is.

On October 21 2012 23:51 DarthPunk wrote:

Like I don't see how a rational townie would have posted like that. But I can see a scum posting that stuff VERY easily.

On October 22 2012 00:26 austinmcc wrote:

It's worrying me too. I had started to find you scummy in LC because you hadn't said I was scummy and disinterested, until you finally did later in the day.

On October 22 2012 00:45 Z-BosoN wrote:

Don't understand this logic. I must conclude you are town to agree with your reads? So if I think v7 is scum, then everyone who finds him suspicious I cannot be weary off?

+ Show Spoiler +

On October 22 2012 02:40 drazak wrote:
Sorry sorry, I fell asleep last night watching some burn notice, V7 saying he'd post and then not is pretty serious stalling. I'd like to take a bit more of a look at keir but I think I'm going to part a vote on V7 so that he must reply when he returns, I feel that it's certainly been long enough to be after work for him. it's been 16 hours.

##Vote vaderseven

On October 22 2012 03:02 drazak wrote:
I think he's stalling and I'd like to see him post, I wanted to see him post last night when I fell asleep, but it was a little too early.

On October 22 2012 05:18 austinmcc wrote:
See what happens when I don't explain my full thought process in spoilers!

On October 21 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:

vaderseven - for lack of content, firstly. But more tellingly for the manner of his posts. He mixes in the cute little posts - "what do you want to know about mes" and the little fun facts about his rolling mafia. In between those posts, though, are sarcastic and patronising posts that are really easy for scum to make because it makes them look like they know what's going on without actually have to contribute anything.

On October 22 2012 05:38 austinmcc wrote:

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

What do you make of keirathi's post in the middle of the DP stuff?

On October 22 2012 06:18 Keirathi wrote:

What do you mean they were pointless? I wanted him to explain his rationale. I didn't make a snap judgement, so that's scummy?

On October 22 2012 06:28 Keirathi wrote:

I guess I can respond to this since I'm around for a bit before I have to go sit with my grandpa again.

I'm not going to vote for something that I'm not pretty convinced of. His answer to the questioning going on in thread was way more important than what he actually said that I called bullshit on.

Also, FOS is a stupid term that I have never nor will ever use. Calling a post bullshit and making a pressure "case" is as close as you'll ever get to seeing an FOS from me.

And, about not following up: it was friday night. I went out for the night. Fucking sue me. (And yes, marv, I am being aggressively defensive. If people really want to lynch me for that then I'm going to flip the fuck out.)

On October 22 2012 06:25 Hapahauli wrote:
Marv, on a scale of 1 to 10, how whiny did Z-Boson's "unjust" comment sound to you? Perhaps I'm reading into this too much, but damn that sounds scummy.

On October 22 2012 07:48 Keirathi wrote:

Do you actually think I'm scum? You've been wavering back and forth all day without really taking a hard stance on me.

Feels like you're trying to set yourself up to not look bad for my mislynch, tbh.

On October 22 2012 07:56 Keirathi wrote:

Why is it okay for you to take a hard stance whenever you feel like it, but not me?

That's basically the exact same thing I've been saying. I just haven't been plopping every single one of my thoughts in the thread because I'm busy.

On October 22 2012 08:03 Keirathi wrote:

How was my ability to meta read you in any way related to the case against me being scum? :o

On October 22 2012 08:10 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Marv
I know Kei's a smart guy and all, but you're suggesting he planned this out from Day 1? The self-aware meta thing doesn't make sense here. If you disagree with my rationale before (general attitude toward suspicion), then that's cool, but self-awareness isn't a valid reason here.

On October 22 2012 08:22 Keirathi wrote:

It's not like saying "I don't have reads" is unprecedented for me, as town. You just have to decide if this time I'm saying it as scum instead.

On October 22 2012 08:29 Hapahauli wrote:


Sooo you were content not posting until someone called you awol?

On October 22 2012 09:30 Keirathi wrote:

A complement by calling me scum? LOL

Anyways, I always find it extremely hard to get a solid grasp on anyone in day 1. And I've almost gotten lynched for it like 3 times. I mean, I know it's my fault, bu it just gets extremely tiring. But I'm not going to force reads that I don't believe in either. I tried that before and got called out too. I would rather be indecisive than pretend to be decisive and be wrong.

On October 22 2012 13:40 Keirathi wrote:
@DP:

The difference is that you had a well presented, logical, solid case. It was strong enough that it probably could have gotten me lynched, but it would have been over something worth being lynched for. The cases against me this game mostly boil down to "I expect better" or "he could be fucking with his meta", which is lazy scumhunting and a terrible reason to lynch me. Which is why I've spent so much time questioning the people who keep limping in to the case against me.

On October 23 2012 00:16 austinmcc wrote:
Catching up now, but wanted to throw something out here. It may be anti-town, but I don't quite think it is.

I want to lynch someone. Maybe I'm bloodthirsty, maybe I agree that it's easier to work with flips, maybe I just want the game to move forward so we can actually play mafia instead of D1 hand-holding or whatever it is we're up to. But I would like to lynch a player, sooner, rather than later. I think there are benefits and drawbacks to both town and scum if we let D1 drag on forever, and probably only drawbacks to hosts. As much as I want to keep swapping votes around and see how quickly blazinghand can give updated votecounts...we're not making the setup work for us. We're just dithering around and doing very little.

So I propose we lynch a player. Right now, the player that I want to lynch is v7, see vote. I will look closer at keirathi and hapa while at work today, and going to look marv over as well. If I want to lynch any of them more than v7, then I'll swap my vote and try to drum up support. But this is getting silly and we're all LETTING it get silly.

I would like others' thoughts on this. I don't think an infinite-length D1 actually helps us, and I don't think it makes everyone invested in the game. Look at how lazy most of the thread is, because there's no pressure to do anything. Don't want to contribute? Okay. Just contribute tomorrow, deadline is infinite, no problems guys. That is TRUE, but it's crap, and it's not useful to us imo.

btw, apart from my normal paranoia, this is one thing that makes me suspicious of marv. I know he doesn't like to play setup games, but I would expect townmarv to be a little more bloodthirsty, be pushing someone a little more, and not be willing to play infinite D1 pattycake.

Am I the only one with this thought? Are people just worried to type it out because "let's lynch someone NOW, instead of later with more information" feels like it might be anti-town?

On October 23 2012 07:31 Z-BosoN wrote:
Calling me a jerk does nothing to aggravate my skirmish with Hapa. That's uncalled for, but it's not throwing wood to the fire, as you mentioned.



Reading

On October 23 2012 07:52 austinmcc wrote:

I want to lynch someone. I actually deleted the part of that post where there are 4 someones I'm willing to lynch and start copy pasting the blood for the blood god bit for fun.

Right now I'm poking. Poking helps me figure out which of my 4 I want to push, because just going "I WILL LYNCH ANYONE FROM THESE 4" seems suboptimal.

On October 23 2012 08:14 austinmcc wrote:
marv, what is YOUR read on drazak atm.

You were townie earlier, but hapa "has the right idea with his drazak and v7 post." You seem to think v7 threw fuel on the fire, and is scummier for that. What about drazak's odd defenses?

On October 23 2012 04:50 drazak wrote:
Not to defend hapa too much, but I know when I've read things, I think different things whehter or not I'm hungry, or if other things are going on in my life, maybe he reconsidered after reading something again.

On October 23 2012 09:41 austinmcc wrote:

So, I'm paranoid and I usually think things like this. However, IF he was going to take out a townie and play WIFOM games, then I would expect him to do that. Instead, you pounce on him, and he pretty quickly looks through your filter and finds that quote about dumb hammers.

If he were scum wanting to WIFOM, I would expect him to WIFOM. Instead, he seems to have gone to look at the filter of his attacker, and bring up something specific to you where you said you weren't concerned about dumb hammers. i.e. he's concerned with your attack on him, rather than WIFOMing the scumminess of his hammer.

On October 23 2012 09:54 austinmcc wrote:
Ninjaed.

Optimum play. To me optimum play would be the thing that makes you seem most townie, and so it would be pretty close to what Z-Bo did, lol. Going to the accuser's filter, remembering some inconsistency between a previous post and the current stance, bringing it up. Then...probably either continuing to push that, to undermine the guy who is accusing me, or possibly get a scumbuddy to step in and help out (I'm not scum bee tee dubs).

What I'd EXPECT from scum wouldn't be the most super optimal play though. I'd expect the WIFOM, or this argument that I'm bringing up, or something else.

On October 23 2012 10:00 austinmcc wrote:

I don't think he's scum because the hammer seems like suboptimal play.

Then his response feels very townie/the optimal play for scum.

On October 23 2012 09:13 Z-BosoN wrote:
Well, well, you are quick to pounce.
I found the probability of him lying greater than the one of him telling the truth and playing like he is. He's had forever to contribute.
99.99% you say?
I think you just very well claimed scum here really. Even if I was scum, a townie wouldn't have so much certainty on that fact with my filter, especially with the entirety of your case solely residing on my stance of v7. You are just fake-tunneling hard now, my friend.

On October 23 2012 10:56 Keirathi wrote:
Man marv, if you're town your reads are fucking terrible this game. No offense.

On October 23 2012 11:01 Keirathi wrote:

When have you ever been so wrong before (assuming you are town. which i'm not totally convinced of, ofc)? Certainly not in any game that I've played with you. I've literally never seen you make such a weak case, so if you believe that strongly in it, I'll expect that apology after I flip town.

On October 20 2012 09:11 drazak wrote:
Yeah, there is a reason this game was invite after the last disa-gsl, game. Of course it starts while my laptop is put of commission haha. Phpnes and multiple computers for the win.

On October 20 2012 09:27 drazak wrote:
Of course Hapa, plenty of free time as far as I know, should be posting a bunch. Also a little less afraid to post for various reasons.

On October 23 2012 13:08 Keirathi wrote:

So, I've been thinking about this a lot. While I agree with your premise, I just don't agree that the hammer was suboptimal play IF Z-Bo is scum and was worried about dying. Its hard to say whether he was actually worried about dying or not, but I do think he was the second most likely possibility of being lynched, at least with the given information, behind v7.

So, yea, I think he did the optimal scum thing in both cases: 1) giving himself another day and hopefully letting people talk themselves out of his lynch, and 2) attempting to discredit the person who attacked his hammer reasoning.


Anyways, I still don't think a town ZB magically creates a top 2 scum read on v7 out of nowhere like that. The timing was just too convenient. I was pretty convinced even before his reasoning for hammering, and that was just the icing on the cake.

On October 23 2012 22:45 iamperfection wrote:


Then whats his fucking strategy play terrible on purpose a scum drazak would have a partner that is a fact.i dont see anyone on the player list that would allow this to happen.

On October 23 2012 23:26 Keirathi wrote:

Anyways, I wasn't really making a specific meta read. Just that I don't remember anything that blatantly "bad" from Z-Bo in any of the games of his that I've obsed.

On October 24 2012 00:18 Keirathi wrote:

And, really, it IS using trends. A trend that, throughout all of his games that I've watched, he has good reasoning for changing his scum reads, not magically pulls names out of thin air just because they're being talked about/voted (although maybe the Node thing shoots this out of the water).

------

First off, I've already explained how his logic about the phone thing is contradictory. Why did he pick the phone posting, out of all the excuses v7 was giving, as the ONE that he believed and not any of the others?

Then he said "Extremely big change [in tone]", without explaining it. I don't see an extremely big change in tone, aside from the situation being different because he's under pressure, and the fact that it looks like a phone post because of the typos.

Nothing about that "case" was vote worthy. I certainly don't fault people for voting for a guy who wasn't posting at all, but those reasons ZB gave feel extremely forced and fake.

On October 24 2012 00:26 Z-BosoN wrote:
Anyways, I'm really interested at why drazak is inactive. He really has some clearing up to do.
Marv, what do you make of my pre-night post on him? While I was making that case I had trouble drawing any strong conclusions.

On October 24 2012 01:51 Keirathi wrote:

About the Node thing: I think the difference to me is that he specifically said that he was voting Node for being a lurker and disappearing. But when it came down to it, that wasn't enough to keep his vote there, and he changed to coag who he thought had actually BEEN scummy, not just lurking. In this game, he had cases on me, austin, and Hapa (maybe more? I don't remember ight off), but in the end he voted for the lurker for some contrived reasoning.

As for the scum motivation: I don't actually think he was planning to hammer then, exactly. His "case" came just 9 minutes after Hapa tossed his vote down. What I think happened is that scum ZB was feeling pressured for being so heavily on v7 for such little reasoning, so he looked hard to come up with ANY kind of vindication for his read. Then when he posted, he saw that Hapa had already voted, and took the opportunity to throw the hammer and at least buy himself another day to talk himself out of getting lynched.

On October 24 2012 02:05 Hapahauli wrote:
Don't you worry, I have some good stuff - it'll take me pretty long to compile though so I can't work on that in class atm.

Howwwwweva, my read on iamperfection is much stronger - what are your thoughts on him?

Lastly, I find it odd that you chose to go after me with that remark (apparently you're suggesting that me having a scumread on you = me being scummy?) instead of commenting on iamperfection at all.

On October 24 2012 02:41 austinmcc wrote:
Tee hee. Kind of weird that a couple people have popped up with recent thoughts that marv might be scum. By process of elimination I was kind of coming down to drazak/marv with outside chances on iamp/hapa/keir.

One reason I asked iamp about the whole "scum teammate wouldn't let drazak say this stuff" is that it's a reason to like a drazak/marv scumteam. Marv wasn't around early to stop drazak, drazak has since posted little and mostly clammed up.

I can't find a chunk of time to write out full thoughts until a little later though.

On October 24 2012 01:47 Hapahauli wrote:

Regarding my Scumreads

Iamperfection
Marvellosity

The gist of it is that Marv's posting is really detached from this game, and is something I never see in his town games, but very frequently in his "lazier" scumgames.

Iamperfection also has this golden post here:



...where he basically calls Kei scum outright on Day 1 yet keeps his vote on v7 the entire day. I'm also sure I'm not mis-interpreting his "candle-light vigil" comment since he clarified his scumread on Kei here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602&currentpage=31#607

Also, I noticed that he had an "FOS" on me right after the lynch deadline, but has done nothing so far to push his read, despite me not posting in the thread at all in the last ~16 hours or so.

He's also just really really sure about Draz being town, which is odd to me. I know I had a town read on Draz before, but so clearly declaring him town is completely unjustified in light of his complete absence from the thread after early D1.

On October 24 2012 04:15 austinmcc wrote:
Marv ...

I'm always paranoid about marv because of the first game we played. Here are some general thoughts, things for everyone to keep in mind:

Almost half of Drazak's filter is before marv posted in this game. More than half of Drazak's filter is before marv got active this game (he came back but went to sleep or whatever). That's just a thing. It's only relevant IF Drazak flips red, and even though it's not super indicative of anything, but when I think "Why wouldn't scum 2 be reigning in scumDrazak?" one obvious answer is "Scum 2 wasn't around yet." Marv fits the bill of someone who wasn't around.

Marv has to play odd this game. I think a lot of the thread has read/played in games he was in. Some players have been scum with him. Even if you can't fully identify scumMarv and townMarv, marv has trouble this game because he may well be a lynch on D3 or D4. If game not solved or marv not shot, probably scum marv at that point, that whole argument. In this game, that's a HUGE liability for scum. 1/2 of scum being certain to get killed D3 or D4 as policy? No bueno. It means scumMarv, with a newbie scumbuddy, CANNOT BUS LIKE NORMAL. Scummarv likes bussing weak scum players, but he can't this game, because there's too much risk. Late game he'll probably get killed, so he can't bus the only other scum.

Therefore, scummarv can't go with his normal game plan. Don't look for game plan, don't look for meta, blah blah blah. Just look for contributions. Look for how he feels. I don't love the way he's staying back this game, making friends, cracking jokes, etc. One way to get around the policy lynch later is to seem like you're distracted this game. Miss some D1, gotta be absent for part of game later, no strong reads, etc. etc. That way it doesn't look as odd that you've not been NKed after a couple nights. Really, scummarv would have 2 options - play SUPER townie and try not to get policy lynched, or sit back and hope to make the argument that his play this game hasn't warranted a NK, therefore don't policy lynch him.

So anyway, getting to the point. I'm wary of marv. I'm wary of marv every game, but THIS game in particular throws a wrench into the way he normally plays scum. It's more difficult for him to bus his ONLY teammate. It's much more difficult to throw off the policy lynch, because we've got some strong townies but nobody... S class? No vets that are almost sure to die N1 because scum just can't leave them up. He's in an odd position this game IF he's scum.

Okay so, there are some dumb thoughts. I haven't always agreed with his thought processes this game, I don't like that he found v7 scummy for things I found townie, I don't like that he finds Drazak townie off some of his contributions when I get hung up on those weird outside-the-game posts. But oh well, that doesn't make marv scum. It just makes me wary, and it makes me really think about how he would have to play a 2-scum game this game.

If you're town marv, then this is still what you get for LV. Eventually I'll get over it, but your play this game has been interesting. I don't care if you've been low involvement in other town games, or been busy, or whatever. It feels very backseat-y, very joke-y and friendly at times (yes you've thrown some insults as well), which gets the thought stuck in my head that you're trying to avoid some kind of policy lynch on yourself.

On October 24 2012 06:35 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Marv

Regarding iamp's "candle-light" thing, I initially thought that was the case as well (responding to Kei). However, iamperfection's more recent post (his clarification of that post) suggests my interpretation:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602&currentpage=31#607

In it, he very clearly refers to that post as having a scumread on him.

Regarding misrepresenting iamp's suspicions (in particular the vote on v7 vs. Kei's suspicions)
Yah that's totally my bad. However, my other points still stand, namely his random FOS on me, his town read on Draz, and more recently, his uncharacteristically passive defense.

And btw, I find it funny you still haven't commented on iamperfection's alignment at all.

But I'm working on a case on you anyway - it'll take a little while to type.

On October 24 2012 07:37 Keirathi wrote:

And, a non-rhetorical question: you were in GSL 1. v7 early in day1 made small chit-chat, then did nothing but talk about Risen. Day2, he said "I'll be back later to give reads" and then disappeared until 10 minutes before the deadline. Did that never even give you pause here?

On October 24 2012 08:43 Keirathi wrote:

I don't think you're disinterested in the game, but you have been less interested in scum hunting than you normally are (yea yea, I'm being a hypocrite. Doesn't mean I'm wrong though.) Hapa was right, as town you are all over te place unless you have a damn strong read. When you aren't dead set on someone, you waver around jumping on little things until you're satisfied that that person is town, even if that person isnt your strongest scum read.

On October 24 2012 08:58 Hapahauli wrote:


That statement was accurate about your gameplay so far: true or false?

On October 24 2012 09:08 Hapahauli wrote:
So if you want to attack my meta case, find one of your town games and show me why I'm mistaken. I believe that none of these tells apply to your town games. I also believe they are exclusive to your scumgames - not all of your scumgames follow these tells, but your lazy ones do.

On October 24 2012 09:39 Hapahauli wrote:
I already addressed the rest of that post previously.

You still haven't shown me how you are capable of this behavior as town. I'm convinced that your filter can't come from town-Marv.

But I'm not expecting you to disprove my case. Are you town? Stop saying you're "trying" and convince me. Dump your reads, give the town some good stuff, and there's a small chance I'll reconsider.

Also, I'm curious if you still think I'm scum? Because that earlier "scum-Hapa" bravado of yours disappeared real quick.

On October 24 2012 09:49 Hapahauli wrote:


Oh please do tell me how you've been trying. I've pointed out specifically how different you "trying to figure out alignments" is completely different in this game from other townie games.

And lol, you're straight-up claiming scum with that vote.

On October 24 2012 09:53 drazak wrote:
Wow, that post, I skimmed it before, but reading it again,I'm really starting to believe it, it's pretty comprehensive and those signs are pretty exact. I think if we lynch marv and he's scum, whomever the medic is has to save hapa because that wouldn't be a bus, but if marv isn't scum, maybe lynch hapa the next day?

On October 24 2012 09:55 drazak wrote:
To me, your play is pretty neutral, but based on the meta evidence? I think you're scum. I have no problem voting youbased on the meta evidence.

##vote marvellosity

On October 25 2012 00:46 drazak wrote:
marv bro, where are your reads? you promised them in the morning, and you're not making good.

On October 25 2012 00:55 drazak wrote:
yeah man, ad hominem is certainly the answer, I was open with my reads when people asked me, try again please.

On October 21 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:

vaderseven - for lack of content, firstly. But more tellingly for the manner of his posts. He mixes in the cute little posts - "what do you want to know about mes" and the little fun facts about his rolling mafia. In between those posts, though, are sarcastic and patronising posts that are really easy for scum to make because it makes them look like they know what's going on without actually have to contribute anything.

On October 22 2012 00:40 marvellosity wrote:
-snip-

Most of all right now I want v7, drazak, and Keirathi to be posting.

On October 22 2012 05:50 marvellosity wrote:


I'm not exactly sure. A couple of posts later in his filter he explains he was just calling out bullshit and didn't read anything alignment-y from it. But then if that's the case, then the contributions were just pointless and not really contributions.

I think Kei is playing pretty scummily - but what gives me pause is in his recent post, he just told town he doesn't really have any reads. Given he's under some pressure, it makes little sense for a scum Kei to do that. But then I find myself going around in stupid little wifom circles. What do you think?

I don't have these little niggles about vader, so I'd quite like to hammer him. But we're still going places with discussion so I'm loathe to right now.

Z-bo, are you sure that part of your read on Hapa isn't that you're putting him on a pedestal and placing unreasonable expectation from his posting? I'm getting that vibe from what you're posting about him.

On October 22 2012 08:19 marvellosity wrote:


Naw, not planned out, but the thing that made me think about it was the first post where he was like "meh, I don't have reads".

Anyways, not really willing to give a time to hammer on vader. We'll do it when it's time to do it.

On October 23 2012 00:42 marvellosity wrote:

-snip-

Where I stand right now: vader is my top scumread, but I *do* want to hear what he has to say. His appearance in the thread last night hasn't really assuaged my concerns at all, mostly because of the combination of his absolutely indignant posts on being called out and the fact he's referenced playing a fair chunk of mafia games.

-snip-

On October 23 2012 06:56 marvellosity wrote:

Anyway, vader fits perfectly into the throwing-wood-on-to-the-fire mould, basically egging on the aggressiveness in the thread when there was no need for him to do so. Also, unlike austin, I see his 'I'm going through filter' thing as pretty scummy - like he's going through the motions rather than trying to push something constructive into the thread. BUT LOOK, I'M LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S SHIT?! No. Don't buy it.

Every time I see vader post, he's not making me think any more that he's town. This scumbo gotta hang.

##Vote vaderseven.

On October 20 2012 13:30 Hapahauli wrote:


The point that people are trying to make is that it makes no difference. Scum aren't going to be deterred (or even remember) something like this. Anywho, I think it's best to agree to disagree here. It gave me a town read on you anyway so cool.

Nao off to bed - peace out folks.

On October 21 2012 12:58 Hapahauli wrote:


Oh, and Idunno if I'd go THAT far. Mafia are capable of saying stupid things as well, though I do think he's town based on his interest levels. The question is whether he maintains his activity or not.

On October 22 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Okeydoke that's townie enough. Certainly can't lynch you over v7 at this point.

On October 23 2012 06:26 Hapahauli wrote:
Okeydoke I'm dropping the Z-Bo stuff. Starting to realize from my last post that Z-Bo could have read Kei's stuff much different than I. 180'ing the read here and calling him town (I DO WAT I WANT) - dropping the contradiction, everything else in his filter pretty much makes sense from a town perspective - willingness to jump on multiple people, making several consecutive reads and playing reactionary.

On October 23 2012 08:30 Hapahauli wrote:
I'mma goin to vote v7.

##Vote Vaderseven

The only players who haven't given me some reason to think they're town are v7, drazak, and marv.

On October 24 2012 08:13 Hapahauli wrote:
Anywho, I want to comment on Marv's suspicions on me:

My town meta is really really inconsistent at times. In particular, I'm good for making 2-3 horrifically bad cases in the early game - mostly because I post without proof-reading and I read filters faster than I should (confirmation bias ahoy). Now marv and I have played in several games, and he's been witness to these cases of mine over the last few months. It blows my mind that marv thinks I'm suspicious based on my iamperfection case - he of all people should be familiar with my town meta, yet he thinks I'm scummy for some reason.

However, while I'm good at making the occasionally bad case/point, I'm pretty confident in this one (as well as my iamperfection case, just not on that one point any more). I think it's out there for the town to see how different marv is this game.

On October 24 2012 09:39 Hapahauli wrote:
I already addressed the rest of that post previously.

You still haven't shown me how you are capable of this behavior as town. I'm convinced that your filter can't come from town-Marv.

But I'm not expecting you to disprove my case. Are you town? Stop saying you're "trying" and convince me. Dump your reads, give the town some good stuff, and there's a small chance I'll reconsider.

Also, I'm curious if you still think I'm scum? Because that earlier "scum-Hapa" bravado of yours disappeared real quick.

On October 25 2012 05:30 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh also I should probably talk about marv's "motivation" for giving so many town reads - the thing is, he can always retract those reads w/out any problems. For example, he was slightly town on Drazak, and all of a sudden finds him scummy now. Declaring people town doesn't matter if you aren't strong about it. Marv just weakly declares a bunch of people town while pursuing scumreads. Big difference.

On October 24 2012 09:43 drazak wrote:
*reads marvs filter*

On October 24 2012 09:55 drazak wrote:
To me, your play is pretty neutral, but based on the meta evidence? I think you're scum. I have no problem voting youbased on the meta evidence.

##vote marvellosity

On October 24 2012 10:31 drazak wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661536 is stalling, why would town stall? Scum would calmly defend themselves.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661268 Where he basically confirms the meta read but then says that this game is special, really?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661087 where he uses games that hapa picked as part of his meta to try to defend himself

I think one of the most telling things is the comparison to the clothes mini where he appears to be unconfident of his vote, and then here he's sure about v7, who flipped town.

On October 24 2012 11:24 drazak wrote:
He did say fuck off to you hapa, but yeah, he doesn't seem to be as angry as those other games, not sure if whiny, but certainly not as angry.

On October 24 2012 10:18 drazak wrote:
I mean, if we're wrong, and hapa's read is wrong, then shit, mislynch, hope doc makes a good save, hope parity cop is alive or boxer knows when to claim, and then go after hapa as long as there's no good evidence to his defense. Marv hasn't adequately defended himself by anyone's means as far as I'm concerned, why are you so defensive of him DP?

On October 24 2012 10:25 drazak wrote:
DP bro, sorry that I had a life and that it snuck up on me, wish I didn't have to be afk for as long as I did, but with my laptop giving me issues I have to be at my desktop to post, I read a little bit of the thread on my phone but I had to reread it to make sure I had it when I was on my pc. while you may classify voting for marv as "sheeping" look at his filter, he's got no good defense to hapa's accusation, he says that hapa is cherry picking cases, but if he is then there should be ample evidence to the contrary regarding his meta.

On October 24 2012 11:14 drazak wrote:
You mean his lack of defense and his scumstall?

On October 25 2012 00:46 drazak wrote:
marv bro, where are your reads? you promised them in the morning, and you're not making good.

On October 22 2012 03:01 marvellosity wrote:


So is this a "I think you're scum" vote or a "pressure to post" vote?

On October 22 2012 03:02 drazak wrote:
I think he's stalling and I'd like to see him post, I wanted to see him post last night when I fell asleep, but it was a little too early.

On October 25 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:


But you're not honey.

On October 25 2012 07:56 Hapahauli wrote:


For emphasis for anyone hesitant to hammer marv.
...made even worse by the fact I'm basically confirmed town.

On October 25 2012 07:56 austinmcc wrote:
It's all I can do not to ask a dumb sherpa question.

marv, drazak.

you say bandwagony, lack of explanations, evades questions.

This was a peculiar post to me, in terms of you giving real reasons for finding him townie (actually speaking with him, about getting lynched for not pushing reads, etc.). This post came from a position of...more knowledge than we have in thread, and so should carry some weight.


do you think that he grasps it, that he'd be playing differently if he were town this game? Especially given that one of the two reads you gave seems to be town, you still confident in the other?

On October 25 2012 23:27 austinmcc wrote:

I get stuck thinking there are cases where someone posting less would be a good play.

On October 25 2012 23:29 austinmcc wrote:

It wasn't suboptimal. It was suicidal.

v7 isn't participating/isn't giving reads, let's lynch him.

v7 returns to thread, gives out a few reads and promises participation later.

Way higher chance that he's actually crazy busy and trying to contribute what he can than just...doing exactly what people are finding him scummy for.

On October 25 2012 23:33 austinmcc wrote:

Gotcha gotcha. I think those are entirely different, and I dunno that I should keep clogging up postgame with this, lol.

VE made an "obvious" mistake, that highlighted the change in posting style with the @ and the italics.

v7 was called scummy for behaving a certain way, came back after a long absence and behaved in much the same way. Not that it was obvious or too scummy, but just that scum under suspicion for x doesn't come back after a long absence and keep doing x, at least in the vast majority of cases.

On October 26 2012 01:59 talismania wrote:


aha! Now you know what it feels like :-)

ps wtf is up with you getting scum so much? I get the sense that hosts don't actually do things randomly around here.

On October 26 2012 04:41 Keirathi wrote:
A bit unfortunate that both of the people you wanted to push had blue claims in their back pockets :p

On October 26 2012 04:49 austinmcc wrote:

Claiming = fun.

On October 26 2012 15:29 debears wrote:

AND MOST IMPORTANT ANSWER THIS

debears
10-24-2012
12:39 AM ET (US)
btw is this "S-Class" label referencing Yu Yu Hakusho??