EPTGSL Mini Mafia III - Page 4
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 23 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote: people need to stop ignoring my posts when im town it happens every fucking game basically. When i say wait it means wait. Although i would of pushed v7 even if i had gotten back in time fucker had to go so im not really mad Any who another post that got ignored that i should have probably pushed harder when i made it was this one Kerihati used the same fucking argument when he was scum in gsl 1. He Basically he argues this how i always act and thats why he was doing this. My scum read on Kerihati remains and his stupid argument after the flip even makes less sense since he observed gsl II. People used shit arguments to blame ottoxol for being scum in that game just because he droped a hammer. I think droping a hammer is a null tell and the fact that kerihati blatantly abandoned all logic makes me think he is scum. I used the same argument as town in Aperture 2, and I Can't Believe It's Not Themed too, as town. So...how is that relevant? You're making an argument about my "meta" without any fucking clue what my meta actually is. Or hell, what meta even is in general. It's a pattern of things repeated across multiple games. That I even have to explain this to you is so mindboggling that I can't comprehend it, since I've used it to correctly read you and tell you about it in like 4 different games, granted I was wrong in another game. I actually don't know what you're talking about with Ottoxlol. I named my scumteam in the obs thread on night 1, then checked out because the game was boring and dead. You're right. Dropping a hammer, in and of itself, is completely a completely null tell. Did I ever say I was voting him for hammering v7? No. I'm going to vote him for the REASONS he hammered v7. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
It's okay, I'll forgive you when you apologize in post-game. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 23 2012 10:59 marvellosity wrote: when have you ever known me to apologise? When have you ever been so wrong before (assuming you are town. which i'm not totally convinced of, ofc)? Certainly not in any game that I've played with you. I've literally never seen you make such a weak case, so if you believe that strongly in it, I'll expect that apology after I flip town. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 23 2012 11:05 marvellosity wrote: I think austin actually takes great delight in his post that he's used across multiple games about my wrong reads. I do find it interesting though that you characterise any case against you, by anyone really, as weak, lazy, *insert word here*. If you can show me you're town, I'll reconsider my read. Hell, I even gave Palmar in Rock Band a chance. This hammer shit is NOT it. Did you read his reasoning for hammering v7? Can you show me one piece of that "case" that reads like something a town Z-Bo would make? Because I sure as hell can't. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 23 2012 10:01 austinmcc wrote: Ya. I get what you're grok-ing at, but I don't think it makes any sense. If both the vote AND hammer were suboptimal or optimal, then I could think Z-BosoN was scum or scum mastermind. If there's a mix, then I find it more likely the townie response is real, and not the result of scum mastermind Z-BosoN, or else I would expect different play concerning the vote/hammer. So, I've been thinking about this a lot. While I agree with your premise, I just don't agree that the hammer was suboptimal play IF Z-Bo is scum and was worried about dying. Its hard to say whether he was actually worried about dying or not, but I do think he was the second most likely possibility of being lynched, at least with the given information, behind v7. So, yea, I think he did the optimal scum thing in both cases: 1) giving himself another day and hopefully letting people talk themselves out of his lynch, and 2) attempting to discredit the person who attacked his hammer reasoning. Anyways, I still don't think a town ZB magically creates a top 2 scum read on v7 out of nowhere like that. The timing was just too convenient. I was pretty convinced even before his reasoning for hammering, and that was just the icing on the cake. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 23 2012 21:24 marvellosity wrote: Kei, why is it too convenient? Can you explain that please? I had a look at Z-Bo's filter from Liquid City. He sheeped on to Node with very little explanation, only after being prodded explaining that it was a policy lynch because he couldn't find anything better. Perhaps the starkest difference is that he went "fuck it, I'm voting coag", taking his own path. But he was lynching coag for being contentless and not scumhunting, similar to vader. I don't really see why in a 9 player mini like this his behaviour is marked as so drastically different. I get the feeling that people are wielding meta in a far too particular, minutiae manner. Most of my meta reads are pretty broad stroke - e.g. Rockband, Palmar - doesn't give a shit about town, Hiro - less invested but capable of long analysis posts. Rather than "I don't think he does this particular thing in this situation" As one of the hosts in his scum game, my main feeling was that he wasn't that invested in town until things started getting heated day 3, whereas my feeling this game is that he is much more invested than that. That, my friends, is MY meta read. What say you rabble? ^^ What is there to explain? The first time he EVER mentioned v7 was when v7 already had 3 votes. Rather than talking about v7 and trying to figure out v7's alignment, ZB just randomly threw his name into the his scum reads list without any reasoning whatsoever. Also: On October 22 2012 08:00 marvellosity wrote: I'm wary of meta in Kei's case is because I know how aware of it he is. The little fucker correctly metaing kush as town on how I hard-defended him in Liquid. So which is it? Do I understand how to use meta, or don't I? Anyways, I wasn't really making a specific meta read. Just that I don't remember anything that blatantly "bad" from Z-Bo in any of the games of his that I've obsed. I'll take a look back at the Liquid City stuff. I missed that part of day 1  | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 22 2012 08:03 marvellosity wrote: eh, I meant that in general you have a strong grasp of meta and its uses. Fine. The first one said aware. This one clearly says you think I know how to use meta correctly. And, really, it IS using trends. A trend that, throughout all of his games that I've watched, he has good reasoning for changing his scum reads, not magically pulls names out of thin air just because they're being talked about/voted (although maybe the Node thing shoots this out of the water). Looking back through ZB's filter again, the only opinions he gave on v7 throughout the ENTIRE day, despite being one of his top scumreads for most of it, were: On October 21 2012 22:16 Z-BosoN wrote: My top suspicions, nevertheless, are iamperfection, Keirathi and v7. I will not be placing my vote on v7 yet, at least until he has a chance to defend himself and make any sort of contribution. I feel his absence is not necessarily alignment-indicative, for now. On October 22 2012 00:39 Z-BosoN wrote: From playing every single fucking him he's on, DP's meta seems to be pretty much like his townie one. Or he has learned the fine art of faking his town day1 meta. Let us wait and see. Right now I do not want to lynch either DP or Drazak. Hapa and marv will evidently have to wait (though I'm a bit weary of you both). Can't make scum reads out of iamp, austin. So, in my POV, that leaves Keir and v7 to be lynched. v7 is certainly looking like the more juicier target. I'm not sure I want to kill him just yet before he's had a chance to defend himself. What do you guys propose? On October 22 2012 04:25 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm seriously looking into Keir/v7. Since Keir is actually showing his face, I'm almost almost almost willing to plunge the hammer on v7. I can't think of a better lynch than him, and his absence is just dragging the game out. (Note that v7 hadn't come back to the thread at that time. But I guess its been long enough that we can kill him now?) On October 23 2012 03:30 Z-BosoN wrote: First of all, there's not really much to say on v7. Those are the only times he gave any kind of opinion or reads about his top scum read, that I can find, until his big "case". On October 23 2012 08:39 Z-BosoN wrote: vaderseven v7's play is extremely lynch-worthy. For some reason, he is only posting via his phone, and that's why his posts feel disconnected from the thread. I don't understand this, however, makes little sense why he wouldn't post from his computer at all, both from a scum and from a town perspective. However, he banks himself on experience, says he's playing a bunch of games. The general tone of his posts during the game are much different from the pre game one. Compare: To: . Extremely big change. Why is he only posting from his phone? Why would he join the game if he's on 14-hours work days? Doesn't really make much sense. He could be faking his meta or something like that, for whatever reason. I just can't understand him... First off, I've already explained how his logic about the phone thing is contradictory. Why did he pick the phone posting, out of all the excuses v7 was giving, as the ONE that he believed and not any of the others? Then he said "Extremely big change [in tone]", without explaining it. I don't see an extremely big change in tone, aside from the situation being different because he's under pressure, and the fact that it looks like a phone post because of the typos. Nothing about that "case" was vote worthy. I certainly don't fault people for voting for a guy who wasn't posting at all, but those reasons ZB gave feel extremely forced and fake. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:23 Z-BosoN wrote: lol kei. So this: Makes me 99.99% scum. Yea... No. That was the icing on the cake. Your other opinions about v7, whom you claimed to have a top scum read on but never spent ANY time discussing, is what convinced me first. Forced/fake read to justify your hammer just pushed it up to 99%. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:27 Z-BosoN wrote: @Kei Gonna keep quoting this every time now, until you get through your thick head that this makes perfect sense for me being town rather than me being scum: How does that make you town? v7 was important enough for you to have a scum read on him, but not important enough to talk about? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:28 marvellosity wrote: Ok, so with the Node knowledge, where does that leave you exactly? And what do you see as the scum motivation for coming up with reasons you deem ridiculous, when he could easily have said anything much more sensible sounding if he just wanted to hammer? Actually that question is kinda icky, but I'd like you to answer anyways About the Node thing: I think the difference to me is that he specifically said that he was voting Node for being a lurker and disappearing. But when it came down to it, that wasn't enough to keep his vote there, and he changed to coag who he thought had actually BEEN scummy, not just lurking. In this game, he had cases on me, austin, and Hapa (maybe more? I don't remember ight off), but in the end he voted for the lurker for some contrived reasoning. As for the scum motivation: I don't actually think he was planning to hammer then, exactly. His "case" came just 9 minutes after Hapa tossed his vote down. What I think happened is that scum ZB was feeling pressured for being so heavily on v7 for such little reasoning, so he looked hard to come up with ANY kind of vindication for his read. Then when he posted, he saw that Hapa had already voted, and took the opportunity to throw the hammer and at least buy himself another day to talk himself out of getting lynched. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I think your point about iamp calling me scum but keeping his vote on v7 would be the strongest point you made, BUT, he also said he had a very strong scum read on v7. It would make sense, if iamp is town, to leave his vote on one strong read when the other strong read isn't gaining any traction. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 24 2012 04:25 iamperfection wrote: i believe i chimed in from my phone. i couldn't be involved sorry? i guess. had work. And you know what even if was here i still would have left my vote on vaderseven the guy did nothing to make me think he was town. so basically your case boils down to i didnt act like you. Vaderseven came across to me like he was full of crap so i make no apologies for leaving my vote on him. These are the kind of posts that are making me suspicious of iamp again. It's just so...not iamp. Town iamp doesn't give a fuck what you think about him. He explains himself when he feels like it, and doesn't care how bad the explanation is. He certainly doesnt apologize, even sarcastically. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 24 2012 06:35 Hapahauli wrote: @ Marv Regarding iamp's "candle-light" thing, I initially thought that was the case as well (responding to Kei). However, iamperfection's more recent post (his clarification of that post) suggests my interpretation: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=31#607 In it, he very clearly refers to that post as having a scumread on him. Regarding misrepresenting iamp's suspicions (in particular the vote on v7 vs. Kei's suspicions) Yah that's totally my bad. However, my other points still stand, namely his random FOS on me, his town read on Draz, and more recently, his uncharacteristically passive defense. And btw, I find it funny you still haven't commented on iamperfection's alignment at all. But I'm working on a case on you anyway - it'll take a little while to type. Marv clearly said earlier that he was getting townie vibes from iamp. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
marv wrote: I'm doing my absolute best to try to figure out what's what, and so far I've been having a bad game and it sucks. How do you know you're having a bad game? Because of the vader mislynch? What if I'm scum, and you've been right all along? That defeatist attitude is not something that I would expect from you, tbh. And, a non-rhetorical question: you were in GSL 1. v7 early in day1 made small chit-chat, then did nothing but talk about Risen. Day2, he said "I'll be back later to give reads" and then disappeared until 10 minutes before the deadline. Did that never even give you pause here? The only people you pursued at all with any kind of scum read day 1 were me and vader, while throwing around a bunch of town reads. That was partly what I was referring to when I said this (besides the joking about the apology): On October 23 2012 11:01 Keirathi wrote: When have you ever been so wrong before (assuming you are town. which i'm not totally convinced of, ofc)? Certainly not in any game that I've played with you. I've literally never seen you make such a weak case, so if you believe that strongly in it, I'll expect that apology after I flip town. In my experience, when town marv only has 1 or 2 reads, he feels damn sure about them (Jingle in Mad Men, Palmar in Rock Band, etc). And he's not usually (ever?) wrong. Town marv is occasionally wrong (gasp!), but when he is, he's wavering around a lot through different reads. Which just doesn't feel like what's been happening here. | ||
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