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I don't feel there's anything about this suspicion that I want you to address though, whether as town or scum you are going to disagree, but feel free to expand on anything if you want.
Uhh wat? Well of course I'll "expand" on what you've said, but you aren't at all in the least bit curious to hear my explanations for my actions when you are suspicious of me?
As for my "easy reads", I still stand by them. I like taking stances early in the game. Sometimes I'm wrong about them (actually I was really wrong about DP in mafia LVII while I was alive), but it's a nice way to get things going. Also, I really stand by my town read on DP this game (he has 5 pages of filter already FFS). Starting to waver on Draz a bit due to his recent inactivity.
As for the "reminding you of my scum newbie game"... in what regard? Can't respond to this if I have no idea wtf you're talking about.
As for "fluffy" posts - I haven't had much substance to go on until today, but with some newfound posting, let's get to work on that:
Regarding Kei
There's nothing in his filter that sets of scum alarms for me. His activity is normal for either alignment (therefore null), and I do like that he seems like he's actively thinking about Drazak's filter. He does a mini-180 on his stance on Drazak which seems pretty logical - first thinking that his vote is more likely town, then when Drazak doesn't post, he's willing to change his read due to the lack of pressure that Draz is putting on DP.
On top of that, having read through his scum meta in GSL I extensively, I find his scum play to be overall more cooperative. I'm definitely not lynching him on his filter, but I'd like to hear more from him. Null/leaning-town on Kei.
Regarding Austin
Just like Marv, I'm really really good at wanting to mislynch town-austin every time we're in a game together. However unlike marv, I don't get townie vibes from his filter so far. This post especially is strange:
On October 21 2012 08:02 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:24 Z-BosoN wrote:
lol, my vote was a pre-game joke.
##Unvote
Let's not die guys. This game will take forever if it's this inactive.
Austin, you've played with Kei in liquid city. What do you make of him? I don't remember kei in LC tbh. I was mostly inactive D1, came back looking at those couple specific people, died before I had a good handle on the full game. Kei from Aperture 2 I feel like is a solid townie as far as being active, looking town, once the game starts. Not...the type of player who takes advantage of that, though? Basically was the towniest person in game, was going to get protection, but kind of let spammier people take over and direct the flow of the game, and noticed that that was happening (kei, your game was much more fun when we were scumhunting than claiming/solving the game bit). I expect some good and insightful posts from him, but I haven't seen him be particularly aggressive. I think we also played...rockband? And maybe another game? I'll have to look through. I don't have a big meta handle on keirathi, but I'm also not generally good at catching people via meta or even USING meta. I mainly focus on picking out odd questions, or questions that never got pursued. That seems to be when I'm most effective, and so I'm going to try and mine the thread hard for things that stick out.
Right now, and I haven't looked at his past play recently, but v7 is sticking out to me somewhat. The DP stuff was EASY to mine for activity last night, poke at it poke at it poke at it. And very safe too, because the way he started to flop around felt townie, so you could attack attack attack and just say "Eh, his flopping around townie." A couple of us did that, but DP has almost only talked about his past games and the DP stuff last night. (AND THEN HE MAY HAVE SPOILED GSL, UNSURE, I AIN'T CLICKING THAT UNTIL I WATCH) There's nothing more than that to go on, but out of all the people who have some posts, his feel like there's the least in them.
Not relevant to anything that's happening, but spoilered for DP and so thread can see my thought process: + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 14:00 DarthPunk wrote:
So what you are saying is that me asking the only person in the thread at that point makes less sense than calling for a mass claim 30 mins into day one.
0_o I asked if you thought he was scum because of this On October 20 2012 13:20 DarthPunk wrote:
If there was even the slightest chance that draz was scum and would be less comfortable fake claiming it was a better play than the alternative IMO.
I am done with this. You don't agree. so be it.
If you didn't have any particular reason to believe draz was scum, then I was uncertain why you'd only ask HIM to roleclaim. The logic that this was a better play than not asking people would hold true for everyone, so if you were REALLY hanging your hat on "asking and making them claim VT is helpful" then you should have been asking EVERYONE, unless you had particular scumreads. That's why I ask, because that logic that you gave wasn't draz-specific, yet your question WAS draz-specific. There's a disconnect there, that I felt like would be addressed if you actually thought he was scum. I think asking ONE person this thing that you think is good to get answers to is weird, because you SHOULD be thinking it's good to ask every person in the game that.
It's divided into three parts: 1) Meta-talk on Kei 2) stuff on v7/DP 3) Explanation of thought process to DP
1) He really doesn't say anything here. I think he's capable of doing this as town though, and he mentions that he's not very big on meta. This is fine.
2) This starts to get a bit weird, and I can't follow the logic at all. He says v7 is sticking out to him, and then talks about the DP situation for the entire paragraph.
3) This strikes me as a defensive impulse. I dont' understand why austin would get defensive here or really bother to explain his actions when no one was suspecting him for it.
Overall, austin's D1 play this game is more active, and I haven't seen it before and don't know what to make of it. However, I do find him slightly scummy because of the above post and want some answers.
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Oh wow nvm on austin
Some high quality shit in that spoiler above.
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...errr spoiler on the last page >>
stupid page post limits
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Red stuff:
a) Cool.
b) Easy reads on scum? What's "easy" about my v7 read? It's straightforward yes, but I don't get why it's inappropriate for me to vote a guy for the reasons I've listed.
c) Uhhhh k.
d) Scum Kei in GSL I tried to be cooperative with other players IMO - he strayed away from confrontations with people he didn't have scumreads on.
Austin case stuff:
1) Yes you did, and that's why I said it was "fine" explicitly. I just broke it down for the sake of completeness.
2) Yeah I didn't get his logic on my first readthrough. Austin explained it quite thoroughly in his spoilers though, so yeah I changed my mind on this quite a bit.
3) Yes I'm suggesting a defensive impulse (or more specifically, defending yourself when you aren't suspicious) is scummy. However, I do think he's capable of this as town, and without #2 as valid, I'm no longer leaning scum on austin.
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On October 22 2012 05:39 Z-BosoN wrote:
b) There's a ton of things going on. You've planted your vote and since then have only written semi-cases on austin and Keir, which concluded little. You are happy and comfy with your vote on v7 and haven't bothered answering any of my inquiries of his lynch.
Also, you are generally more investigative (i.e ask more quesitons, etc.), I use LVII as reference here. So far you've played quite differently than in LVII, in my opinion.
What's there to answer? You haven't asked me anything about the v7 vote that I didn't answer already. You still also have not addressed why you don't think my rationale is insufficient.
Your case on austin seemed extremely forged, and I'm seriously bugged by point no. 2).
It's like you were thinking: "hmmm... let's see, what looks scummy here that I can pounce on.." instead of "is this guy scum?".
This uncharacteristic error could have very well been just that, a misinterpretation. But coming from you I find it oddly suspicious.
Uncharacteristic for me? I am the king of forced D1 cases.
Also, do you realize how hypocritical you're sounding right now? Hypocritical to the point of scumminess. Take a gander of your post here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=14#274
You explicitly reference austin's post (the one I initially objected to) and this is how you described it:
His other main post contains a ton of fluff and doesn't really conclude anything:
Huhwat? Whether you agree with it or not, I made an actual attempt to analyze austin's post. Instead, you dismissed the whole thing as fluff, and somehow my case is forced? Hell given your objections with austin's post, and given that you found him scummy then, it is really weird that you picked a fight over my analysis.
Explain yourself sir.
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What the hell? I have like 4 posts contemplating v7's lynch, as I was, and still am, seriously considering dropping my hammer vote on him. If you really think he's scum, why aren't you pushing him when I'm showing doubt? Anyways, since you are really making me go through my filter and pick out what I mean, here are some things:
I told you, I've made it really clear on what I think of him. What part of this is not sufficient?
On October 22 2012 04:03 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh, and as for V7 - I put vote #3 on him yesterday, and I'm more than comfortable sending him to the grave if he continues not to contribute. I think the 12 hour mark someone said earlier is an appropriate benchmark for hammering him.
You're expecting me to push to lynch a guy who hasn't been posting - that's absolutely a retarded thing for me to do. Myself and the rest of us are voting to pressure v7 to post. If he continues not to contribute, we'll lynch him.
...
Regarding to the "forcedness" of your d1 cases, I'm pretty aware of that. I don't think this looked like a forced case, this looked like a fake case, there's a difference. #1 I don't remember if I used the word "forced", but anyways, that's what i meant.#2
Also, your traditional OMGUS of whoever is pressuring you is pretty unjust.#3 You've taken one specific part on a much bigger post I made and extrapolated it into stamping my whole case on him as fake. I was very clear on my main problem with austin: He was not as aggressive as he usually is and his posting is different than from both the games he's played against me.#4 Austin himself noticed this and convinced me otherwise.
1) Why does it sound fake to you? You can throw words like that around, but they're just words unless you substantiate them.
2) You used forced.
3) LOLOLOL it's "unjust"? Dafuq son? Are you actually scumhunting, or are you trying to argue about the morality of mafia play. Quit whining - if you find this scummy, tell me why. But geezus, whining already when I put a little pressure on you? Man I might have to give you a bit more consideration. Don't want to let scum have the hammer vote now do we?
##Unvote
4) Yes that was another part of your case but so what? Fact of the matter is that there's very little in the way of "analysis" in your case - just some vague meta reads and a dismissal of many of his posts as "fluff." Hell your case is rather fluffy itself.
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Marv, on a scale of 1 to 10, how whiny did Z-Boson's "unjust" comment sound to you? Perhaps I'm reading into this too much, but damn that sounds scummy.
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@ Kei
Well we have 17 pages of filter to go off and your only contributions are a vote on v7 and a "slightly scummy" read on Drazak. Any other reads worth mentioning? There's not much in your filter atm.
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On October 22 2012 06:33 marvellosity wrote:
I don't enjoy using scales with no fun factor. Include a really whiny celebrity and I will answer.
From 1 to Charlie Sheen. Go.
More seriously, it's not the whining, it's that he didn't actually answer your question regarding why he's attacking you over austin's posts. Nor was what you were doing OMGUS, you were asking for an explanation.
Oh and that. Would also love to know why he found austin scummy and is attacking me for finding austin scummy.
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On October 22 2012 06:39 Z-BosoN wrote:
Hapa, not sure I follow you here.
It's funny you got all riled up on the word "unjust". Initially, I had written "retarded", but I didn't want to sound like a dick and start a war. So I used a word that better describes what you are doing. You are using a fraction of one post I make to deem me hypocritical.
So, based on your weird-ass interpretation of the word "unjust", you unvote someone you were uber confident on, before he went afk for an additional 12 hours or more.
Very interesting, to say the least. I'll mull this over dinner.
Where in my filter am I "uber-confident" on v7? Find it and I'll give you a cookie.
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On October 22 2012 06:44 Z-BosoN wrote:
Attacking you for finding austin scummy? How about attacking you for making a bad case on austin? #1
Also, it came waaay after I stopped finding austin suspicious. You guys are not reading...#2
1) Bad case? Thought it was a fake case...wut?
2) I'll semi-concede this, as you did have a null read on austin at the time. HOWWWWEVA, this is far from "waaaay after" you thought austin was suspicious. In fact, my case was only 20 minutes after your post declaring him null.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=15#294
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Also, still waiting for a description on how I was "uber-confident" on v7. I'd love to hear you explain away that one.
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On October 22 2012 06:42 Keirathi wrote:
Anyways:
Slightly town on DP. Kind of town on iamp.
Still slightly scummy on Draz, but not enough that I would vote him at this point without more content.
No one else has really stuck out in the limited amount of time I've actually been able to read and research people. I'm not going to just make up reads that I don't believe in, so meh.
DP has 5 pages of filter already and you consider him only slightly town?
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I do find him scummy, but there still could be a reason why he's not posting. In fact, from GSL I we know he's capable of similar actions as town.
This is why I support the "12-hour" hammer thing someone mentioned earlier. I'm not sure what hour we're on, but I still support a hammer depending on a couple of Z-Boson's responses.
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Okeydoke that's townie enough. Certainly can't lynch you over v7 at this point.
Though I do want to clear this up:
You are confident on your vote, not confident on him being scum.
I have never heard of a confident vote being used as a scumtell. Maybe scum confidence, but not the other way around.
Also, you are still not being concise about my "Hypocrisy". Again. you took a small portion of my case and used it to deem it weak, fake, forced, bad, whatever. That's a bunch of crap if you are really trying to find scumminess in my filter. Unjust too whiny a word? Try ridiculous.
I think I made it clear, but w/e. Looks like you're done with it and I am too.
Now back to the subject of vaderseven - do we want to set a time to hammer him? His inactivity is fairly absurd at this point, and I believe we should set a deadline. I mentioned 12 hours earlier, however, we're getting good discussion now and I don't want to rush things. Perhaps at this time tomorrow, in exactly 24 hours (7:00 KST according to TL.net), hammertime if he doesn't post?
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On October 22 2012 07:41 marvellosity wrote:
austin, I'd like to hear what you (and anyone else) has to say about Kei before I get my voting shoes on.
In a 9 player game, having 1 player who basically refuses to give us anything to hold him accountable to (i.e. reads) it's a fucking liability.
Actually I'd really like to hear what drazak has to say about Keirathi.
Tbh, I can't see scum Kei playing this carelessly. I hate to use this read again, but it seems accurate in the games I've played so far - he has this "I don't give a fuck" attitude towards suspicion against him.
Paired with how much effort I know he put into GSL I, I think he's town.
In my view, the more time, the more chances town actually have. Unless discussion completely stagnates, we should wait as long as possible (even though what we really want is to see v7's godamn alignment ASAP)
Let's lynch him tomorrow at 7 KST then, if he doesn't make himself useful in any manner. Or at least until there's no one talking about anything.
Couple of observations during our little engagement.
1) Drazak is 100% awol
2) Iamperfection even posted a (now THAT is whiny) "why is everyone ignoring me" post in the middle of all this.
3) marv was pretty quick to take a stance in me vs. you.
1) makes me redact some of my townie thoughts on him. He better have some damn good reason for not posting. Seems like he only bothered to post to defend himself.
2) gives me a slight town tell on iamp
3) is weird. There were a lot of arguments floating around, and it didn't seem like he went too deep in them.
Thoughts?
1) This is concerning. I had Drazak promise to me both pre-game and in-game that he'd be active. He hasn't done so, and his activity levels dropping off a cliff is concerning.
2) I've been tricked by Risen doing this as scum before, so I don't think this is a town-tell.
3) Not alignment indicative.
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On October 22 2012 07:51 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 07:00 Hapahauli wrote:On October 22 2012 06:42 Keirathi wrote:
Anyways:
Slightly town on DP. Kind of town on iamp.
Still slightly scummy on Draz, but not enough that I would vote him at this point without more content.
No one else has really stuck out in the limited amount of time I've actually been able to read and research people. I'm not going to just make up reads that I don't believe in, so meh. DP has 5 pages of filter already and you consider him only slightly town? What the hell does the length of his filter have to do with whether he is town or not? It doesn't, in general. Unless you're making a meta read?
Scum posting 5 pages on D1 would be pretty jaw-droppingly impressive.
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On October 22 2012 08:00 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 07:56 Keirathi wrote:On October 22 2012 07:54 marvellosity wrote:On October 22 2012 07:48 Keirathi wrote:On October 22 2012 07:41 marvellosity wrote:
austin, I'd like to hear what you (and anyone else) has to say about Kei before I get my voting shoes on.
In a 9 player game, having 1 player who basically refuses to give us anything to hold him accountable to (i.e. reads) it's a fucking liability.
Actually I'd really like to hear what drazak has to say about Keirathi. Do you actually think I'm scum? You've been wavering back and forth all day without really taking a hard stance on me. Feels like you're trying to set yourself up to not look bad for my mislynch, tbh. You should know I take full responsibility for any lynch I'm voting on. If I were confident you were scum I'd have my vote on you now. I'll take a hard stance when I feel a hard stance. I'm canvassing opinion because I'm unsure on my read. If I had to yes/no now? Then yes, dear. Why is it okay for you to take a hard stance whenever you feel like it, but not me? That's basically the exact same thing I've been saying. I just haven't been plopping every single one of my thoughts in the thread because I'm busy. Because I actually have fleshed out thoughts on several of the players in the game? Hapa - I'm wary of meta in Kei's case is because I know how aware of it he is. The little fucker correctly metaing kush as town on how I hard-defended him in Liquid.
Well the argument that he's less-active (and making himself more suspicious than his normal scum meta) doesn't really hold water. Why would he do this if he was self-aware of his meta? I mean there are other reasons why he could be scum, but self-awareness of meta isn't one of them.
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@ Marv
I know Kei's a smart guy and all, but you're suggesting he planned this out from Day 1? The self-aware meta thing doesn't make sense here. If you disagree with my rationale before (general attitude toward suspicion), then that's cool, but self-awareness isn't a valid reason here.
Also, I don't believe Kei is as much of a liability as you suggest. Well he pales in comparison to v7 anyway if we're on that subject.
I'd like to hear what he thinks about DeePgate overall, not about DP himself but about the rest of us who interacted with him. And hopefully there's enough recent action that he can comment on someone.
Your spoiler-thingy summed it up pretty well. V7 is the top candidate based on that exchange. Kei... I'm not as convinced (for reasons previously posted).
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last half was @ Austin
Also, we should come to an agreement about when to consolidate on v7 (if he continues not to post).
Does the 24 hour mark sound good? (barring someone else scum-slipping of course)
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EPT
