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On October 20 2012 12:19 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 12:10 vaderseven wrote:On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote:Im all for using votes to apply pressure and we don't have to worry about someone doing a stupid hammer it wont happen. However all this policy talk bores me time for some action. On October 20 2012 09:14 DarthPunk wrote:
Hi drazak? What is your role?
blatant blue hunting darthpunk. Why not ask alignment instead of role? Talk to me darthpunk i wish to know more. ## Vote DarthPunk Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. Really you stand by that? You don't care about the alignment someone claims (and why should you at this stage of day 1, it would be joke posts at best)... and you want to peg someone on either claiming their role or lieing about in thread. When asked to explain it you don't fall back on 'jokepost lol' and instead give us this line about setting someone up to be caught in a lie? I r confused. Thats like too scummy in a bad way to be possibly true. I have to write it off as just stupid. I completely agree with vader here. I mean, DP, what if Draz is a blue. What do you expect him to say? Of course he's not going to claim a blue role (I hope), a few hours into day 1. So, he claims Progamer. Then he gets close to lynch, and says "Okay, I'm actually Nestea. Don't lynch me!". What are you going to do, lynch him because he lied and said he was progamer 3 hours into the game? I call bullshit. You know that everyone is going to claim progamer just the same as everyone is going to claim green.There were many acceptable replies iamp's accusation. Yours was not one of them.
Exactly everyone one is going to claim progamer. So what is the difference between asking their role and asking their alignment? Absolutely nothing aside from the fact that I thought if drazak happened to be scum it might put slightly more pressure on him.
This post was like at the very start of the game. I was putting on some small amount of pressure in order to stimulate discussion. If you don't like it. Too bad.
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On October 20 2012 12:24 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 12:21 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 12:10 vaderseven wrote:On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote:Im all for using votes to apply pressure and we don't have to worry about someone doing a stupid hammer it wont happen. However all this policy talk bores me time for some action. On October 20 2012 09:14 DarthPunk wrote:
Hi drazak? What is your role?
blatant blue hunting darthpunk. Why not ask alignment instead of role? Talk to me darthpunk i wish to know more. ## Vote DarthPunk Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. Really you stand by that? You don't care about the alignment someone claims (and why should you at this stage of day 1, it would be joke posts at best)... and you want to peg someone on either claiming their role or lieing about in thread. When asked to explain it you don't fall back on 'jokepost lol' and instead give us this line about setting someone up to be caught in a lie? I r confused. Thats like too scummy in a bad way to be possibly true. I have to write it off as just stupid. If he is scum it would have made him uncomfortable and potentially reduces his options. It was obviously a throwaway line but like most things I post there was some further motivation behind it. Not just: 'what role r u?LOLOLOL' It was some small amount of pressure early. No blue is going to claim. No scum is going to claim. People are reading way too much into this. If no blue is going to claim and no scum is going to claim, then what does this post even mean.... Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote:
Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later.
Meh. It might dissuade him from fake claiming as scum later. Blues are going to claim if they need to regardless because it is the truth. Scum would find it much more uncomfortable to fake claim and lie about it when the lie is already in the thread and makes it a much less desirable proposition. It makes sense to me.
Obviously none of it matters now as I have had to go into length about it.
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On October 20 2012 12:32 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 12:26 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 12:19 Keirathi wrote:On October 20 2012 12:10 vaderseven wrote:On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote:Im all for using votes to apply pressure and we don't have to worry about someone doing a stupid hammer it wont happen. However all this policy talk bores me time for some action. On October 20 2012 09:14 DarthPunk wrote:
Hi drazak? What is your role?
blatant blue hunting darthpunk. Why not ask alignment instead of role? Talk to me darthpunk i wish to know more. ## Vote DarthPunk Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. Really you stand by that? You don't care about the alignment someone claims (and why should you at this stage of day 1, it would be joke posts at best)... and you want to peg someone on either claiming their role or lieing about in thread. When asked to explain it you don't fall back on 'jokepost lol' and instead give us this line about setting someone up to be caught in a lie? I r confused. Thats like too scummy in a bad way to be possibly true. I have to write it off as just stupid. I completely agree with vader here. I mean, DP, what if Draz is a blue. What do you expect him to say? Of course he's not going to claim a blue role (I hope), a few hours into day 1. So, he claims Progamer. Then he gets close to lynch, and says "Okay, I'm actually Nestea. Don't lynch me!". What are you going to do, lynch him because he lied and said he was progamer 3 hours into the game? I call bullshit. You know that everyone is going to claim progamer just the same as everyone is going to claim green.There were many acceptable replies iamp's accusation. Yours was not one of them. Exactly everyone one is going to claim progamer. So what is the difference between asking their role and asking their alignment? Absolutely nothing aside from the fact that I thought if drazak happened to be scum it might put slightly more pressure on him. This post was like at the very start of the game. I was putting on some small amount of pressure in order to stimulate discussion. If you don't like it. Too bad. I agree that this isn't really a scummy thing to have done, just a dumb one, but I think MOST of the reason we're getting on your case is that you basically claimed you were DOING something with it, that this somehow kept people from fakeclaiming: Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote:
Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. when that's not true. You sort of made up a weird reason to justify your weird question, and are now going with a different explanation for your weird question.
No. That is bullshit. There was a reason I asked role instead of alignment. Because it didn't matter and I thought there was an additional benefit in asking role in that it would make it far more uncomfortable for scum to fake claim later. As they would have to fake claim and be instantly under scrutiny for lying.
A blue is always going Claim if they need to because they are telling the truth
Ergo: The only difference in my mind between pressuring by asking role over alignment would be dissuading scum from fake claiming by causing that to be an awkward proposition.
I shouldn't have said 'can't' that is obviously false. I should have said dissuade.
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On October 20 2012 12:36 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 12:19 austinmcc wrote:Ahoy. Haven't played with drazak or v7, although I've read some of the games that v7 played on TL. Looking forward to this game though, the format was interesting for the others, even if SOMEONE went and killed me early in the one I played. There was some chat in obs and post-game after GSL Open 2 that everyone should read. We treated too many days as 72-hour days, never made the instant majority system work for us in that game. I don't want to play overly scared of votes or hitting majority, and I don't support any kind of policy where we're FOSing or some other pseudo-vote. I'd much prefer we vote, vote for reasons, and be held accountable for those votes and reasons. + Show Spoiler +nick being Nick 'breakycpk' Caras = /slowclap don't be so nub and post closer to the day post. Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 11:16 DarthPunk wrote:
Perfection. You called me out and wanted to know more and Have now disappeared. You satisfied with my explanation? got anything else to add. Or you going to drop a vote and AFK? No i wasn't really satisfied with your answer because it comes based on an assumption you made. but i would like more information. Epically after i heard more from drazak. tell me have you played with him before?
No I haven't played with him before. I think I mentioned this already. Why is that relevant?
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EBWOP: So somehow me explaining my motivation behind my post being based on an assumption I made is fallacious?
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On October 20 2012 12:42 vaderseven wrote:
You seem to not get that scum would just the very obv thing of claiming green now without a care for the future. Fake claims are not prepared this far in advance.
Thats such a "duh" that I am pretty sure anyone trying to think about your statement would have come to that conclusion.
Right. That assumption is like the basis of my reasoning in my previous posts. If they have already claimed green they are more likely to not fake claim later because it would seem that they have lied. Scum want to avoid that kind of suspicion. Blues won't care because they have a different mindset and are being truthful.
Therefore I felt that there was a slight advantage in asking for role over alignment.
In my mind if all other factors between asking for role/alignment are equal this small perceived advantage made me choose to ask for his role.
The only reason I am even going into such depth on my reasoning behind one throwaway sentence is that perfection thought I was trying to blue hunt.
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On October 20 2012 12:48 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 12:37 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 12:32 austinmcc wrote:On October 20 2012 12:26 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 12:19 Keirathi wrote:On October 20 2012 12:10 vaderseven wrote:On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote:Im all for using votes to apply pressure and we don't have to worry about someone doing a stupid hammer it wont happen. However all this policy talk bores me time for some action. On October 20 2012 09:14 DarthPunk wrote:
Hi drazak? What is your role?
blatant blue hunting darthpunk. Why not ask alignment instead of role? Talk to me darthpunk i wish to know more. ## Vote DarthPunk Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. Really you stand by that? You don't care about the alignment someone claims (and why should you at this stage of day 1, it would be joke posts at best)... and you want to peg someone on either claiming their role or lieing about in thread. When asked to explain it you don't fall back on 'jokepost lol' and instead give us this line about setting someone up to be caught in a lie? I r confused. Thats like too scummy in a bad way to be possibly true. I have to write it off as just stupid. I completely agree with vader here. I mean, DP, what if Draz is a blue. What do you expect him to say? Of course he's not going to claim a blue role (I hope), a few hours into day 1. So, he claims Progamer. Then he gets close to lynch, and says "Okay, I'm actually Nestea. Don't lynch me!". What are you going to do, lynch him because he lied and said he was progamer 3 hours into the game? I call bullshit. You know that everyone is going to claim progamer just the same as everyone is going to claim green.There were many acceptable replies iamp's accusation. Yours was not one of them. Exactly everyone one is going to claim progamer. So what is the difference between asking their role and asking their alignment? Absolutely nothing aside from the fact that I thought if drazak happened to be scum it might put slightly more pressure on him. This post was like at the very start of the game. I was putting on some small amount of pressure in order to stimulate discussion. If you don't like it. Too bad. I agree that this isn't really a scummy thing to have done, just a dumb one, but I think MOST of the reason we're getting on your case is that you basically claimed you were DOING something with it, that this somehow kept people from fakeclaiming: On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote:
Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. when that's not true. You sort of made up a weird reason to justify your weird question, and are now going with a different explanation for your weird question. No. That is bullshit. There was a reason I asked role instead of alignment. Because it didn't matter and I thought there was an additional benefit in asking role in that it would make it far more uncomfortable for scum to fake claim later. As they would have to fake claim and be instantly under scrutiny for lying. A blue is always going Claim if they need to because they are telling the truth Ergo: The only difference in my mind between pressuring by asking role over alignment would be dissuading scum from fake claiming by causing that to be an awkward proposition. I shouldn't have said 'can't' that is obviously false. I should have said dissuade. All blues will say they're green. All scum will say they're green. Later, Blues will claim blue, "because they are telling the truth." Scum will "be dissuaded from fake claiming" because "they will instantly be under scrutiny for lying" Somehow scum will be under scrutiny for lying, but blues won't be under scrutiny for lying? Or scum will somehow feel that, by telling you in the first hours of the game that they were vt, they now can't claim to be anything else? Your reasoning just doesn't make sense. Moreover, if your goal is to make scum feel pressure somehow, you'd ask everyone in thread. If the goal is to "put pressure on scum" in your mind, you'd make sure that you asked your question to everyone. By asking only one person, you're saying you wanted to put pressure on scum, when really you have no idea if you did that or not.
When talking about claiming I was talking about some point in the future. You are taking two parts of my explanation out of context and presenting them in a way which makes them seem fallacious.
My reasoning takes into account the disparate and distinct mind sets of scum who do not wish to be under the spotlight, inherent guilt, desire to not seem guilty.
And that of a blue who knows they are telling the truth. Confidence in their claim empowered by the truth of it etc.
Of course a blue would be under scrutiny for lying but that position would be far more comfortable for a blue and would be everything most scum wish to avoid.
I don't know if you are being intentionally difficult or if I have not explained myself adequately.
But pointing holes in the reasoning of and incredibly unimportant post is not scum hunting. It is in fact the easiest way to fake scum hunting as scum.
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@drazak
So you actually believe I am scum?
On October 20 2012 10:03 drazak wrote:
Haha, I was gonna do the same thing for his way of asking me, but I wasn't sure if I wanted to be the first vote.
##Vote DarthPunk
After some pressure for jumping all too early on my bandwagon presented your vote as more of a stimulus to discussion than a genuine vote. Hapa mentioned that this is what he believed but you did not correct him.
On October 20 2012 10:25 drazak wrote:
Just giving my thought process on it, while it may not be WIFOM, it's how I thought of it after the fact (and why I was hesitating on voting in the first place). I don't think Mafia have any need to bandwagon votes in an instant lynch game, could be wrong, but it seems somewhat ineffective as nobody will hammer it if there isn't sufficient reason, and if mafia does hammer it it's going to make them look pretty scummy. Voting also causes conversation, which mafia is likely to be somewhat adverse to for having less chance to scumslip. Just my thoughts on how it works with this scenario, obviously mafia have to make some votes.
On October 20 2012 10:05 drazak wrote:
Well, I kind of thought it was stupid, but yeah, it starts conversation and forces him to reply. Seemed like he was replying pretty well on his own though so I was gonna leave it, but the connection seems to have gone dead.
Then after some more traction had been gained you seem to be leaning once again toward me being scum.
On October 20 2012 12:24 drazak wrote:
Sounds like you're trying to look like you're scum hunting while not actually hunting.
You have been incredibly wishy-washy on me despite your vote. You jumped all to eagerly on an early bandwagon. Expressed fear of being singled out and Nervousness. These are not townie traits drazak.
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On October 20 2012 13:05 austinmcc wrote:
Darth, do you believe that drazak is scum?
I am not certain. I think his reaction to the pressure on me is Wishy-washy. Depending on the state of the thread.
Pressure on Me. DarthPunk is scum.
Pressure on him. I was stimulating discussion.
Pressure on me again. Oh look you are scummy.
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On October 20 2012 13:11 austinmcc wrote:
In light of that post, I'm specifically interested in whether you thought he was scum at the time you asked him his role. Not in whether you've found him scummy since then.
What do you think Austin? It was my second post of the game. I thought he had a 2/9 chance of being scum. Honestly.
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On October 20 2012 13:15 Hapahauli wrote:
I go off to play some TF2 and the thread blows up - sweet!
Regarding DP
If I'm getting his logic correctly, he used "role" instead of "allignment" when questioning Draz because scum will somehow be under more pressure if they fakeclaim later, correct?
Well it doesn't make sense, but it's not scummy. The fact that he's sitting here and earnestly explaining incomprehensible logic away makes me think he's town tbh.
Regarding Draz
I coached Drazak in two newbie games, so I feel I should say something about his meta/playstyle. Drazak got mislynched in both his games (pretty early) for lurkiness/wishy-washyness as town. Nothing he's done is alignment indicative so far. I will say he's shown much more interest in this game than his previous games FWIW. Nothing to make a read on him yet.
Like even if they are 1% less likely to fake claim why the hell not? There is absolutely no difference either way but I thought that this way May have some small advatage of the other so I chose that way. I honestly don;t see what is so difficult to understand about this. It is not as if that scenario needs to occur or if it is even likely. I thought it may be the better play out of two otherwise equal options. So I chose it. I am baffled that no one understands that.
geez.
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On October 20 2012 13:16 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 13:13 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 13:11 austinmcc wrote:
In light of that post, I'm specifically interested in whether you thought he was scum at the time you asked him his role. Not in whether you've found him scummy since then. What do you think Austin? It was my second post of the game. I thought he had a 2/9 chance of being scum. Honestly. You say you asked because it would make him less likely to fakeclaim later in game. But you asked only him. Why would you ask only drazak, in order to make him uncomfortable with fakeclaiming later, if you didn't think he was scum and had no more reason to suspect he'd be fakeclaiming then anyone else? That's why I'm asking. The question sounds dumb, and I expect your answer to be "No, he had the same 2/9 chance as anyone." It just makes your explanation...still weird.
If there was even the slightest chance that draz was scum and would be less comfortable fake claiming it was a better play than the alternative IMO.
I am done with this. You don't agree. so be it.
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On October 20 2012 13:30 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 13:19 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 13:15 Hapahauli wrote:
I go off to play some TF2 and the thread blows up - sweet!
Regarding DP
If I'm getting his logic correctly, he used "role" instead of "allignment" when questioning Draz because scum will somehow be under more pressure if they fakeclaim later, correct?
Well it doesn't make sense, but it's not scummy. The fact that he's sitting here and earnestly explaining incomprehensible logic away makes me think he's town tbh.
Regarding Draz
I coached Drazak in two newbie games, so I feel I should say something about his meta/playstyle. Drazak got mislynched in both his games (pretty early) for lurkiness/wishy-washyness as town. Nothing he's done is alignment indicative so far. I will say he's shown much more interest in this game than his previous games FWIW. Nothing to make a read on him yet. Like even if they are 1% less likely to fake claim why the hell not? There is absolutely no difference either way but I thought that this way May have some small advatage of the other so I chose that way. I honestly don;t see what is so difficult to understand about this. It is not as if that scenario needs to occur or if it is even likely. I thought it may be the better play out of two otherwise equal options. So I chose it. I am baffled that no one understands that. geez. The point that people are trying to make is that it makes no difference. Scum aren't going to be deterred (or even remember) something like this. Anywho, I think it's best to agree to disagree here. It gave me a town read on you anyway so cool. Nao off to bed - peace out folks.
If it makes no difference why does anyone care enough to waste all this time on it?!?!?!
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On October 20 2012 13:16 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 13:13 DarthPunk wrote:On October 20 2012 13:11 austinmcc wrote:
In light of that post, I'm specifically interested in whether you thought he was scum at the time you asked him his role. Not in whether you've found him scummy since then. What do you think Austin? It was my second post of the game. I thought he had a 2/9 chance of being scum. Honestly. You say you asked because it would make him less likely to fakeclaim later in game. But you asked only him. Why would you ask only drazak, in order to make him uncomfortable with fakeclaiming later, if you didn't think he was scum and had no more reason to suspect he'd be fakeclaiming then anyone else? That's why I'm asking. The question sounds dumb, and I expect your answer to be "No, he had the same 2/9 chance as anyone." It just makes your explanation...still weird.
So what you are saying is that me asking the only person in the thread at that point makes less sense than calling for a mass claim 30 mins into day one.
0_o
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OK. It was a passing comment. Not a plan. And the reasoning I gave was not the primary motive for the comment. The primary motive was to just throw something out there and stimulate discussion. Mission Successful I guess. The reasoning I gave was the motive behind asking Role over just alignment.
People say that my reasoning is bad/ illogical. Fine. I disagree. But either way that you look at it, it was clearly town motivated.
That being said I, like others, Tend to believe at least one scum used that situation to hide and fake contribute in. Hapa's meta read aside. I find Drazak's actions difficult to reconcile with a townie mind set.
He jumped all to easily on perfections wagon and seemed to actually believe I was scum. Then when pressured, played it off as meaningless and stimulating discussion. Then when the pressure was back on me I am scum again.
He is all too obvious in moving with the sway of the thread rather than having his own beliefs and sticking to them/trying to convince others.
Furthermore. He dropped a vote that may/ may not have been in order to stimulate discussion parks it there and disappears. which is VERY silly in light of the lynch mechanics.
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On October 21 2012 02:10 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 01:59 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Hapa
I see now, you referred to his over-thought out plan as "incomprehensible logic". Not gonna sweat over your choice of words, but I felt that needed some clearing up. You're obviously not scum... right? right?? I be like town yo. You can so take my word for it =D + Show Spoiler +
FU hapa. You look town as scum. I read through XXI you looked so town, that even when you outed yourself as scum you looked townie townie town town.
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On October 21 2012 09:16 austinmcc wrote:
He was so wonky about waiting to vote and then weird in how he addressed not voting first that he was visible to me among the people on your case last night.
In my mind, that makes him less likely to be scum than the rest of us who took you to task for your question. If scum wanted to use that bit of time to get active and look like they were contributing, I don't expect they'd have done so by looking so weird with that vote.
Yeah. I would agree. But Draz is new. And the things I pointed out are all newbie mistakes that it is natural for scum to make.
Jumping on someone else's bandwagon eagerly whilst saying 'I thought that all along'.
Immediately backing down from a vote when pressured.
Flip-flopping once again with the current of discussion.
I am loathe to eliminate the basic mistakes and tendencies of scum because they are the natural inclination for someone with a scum mindset. Especially when that person is so new.
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On October 21 2012 09:26 austinmcc wrote:
I getcha. I agree that he sticks out amongst the action last night, one reason I wanted to ask him some followup questions about what he was doing and what he's thinking now.
Yeah. But he disappeared with a vote on me. grrr so bad manner ^_^
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V7 is unreadable. His entire filter consists of telling me how useless my second post of the game is. V7. post more and scum hunt or I will vote for you.
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On October 21 2012 09:39 drazak wrote:
I don't think DP is scum, I did however want to get him to talk, I whine and whined and whined and cried over the last gsl game, as I fell it's got one of the best flavors, and I like instant majority/parity cop. If people don't talk, it's a pretty lame game.
We also hadn't had a few people check in or discuss policy, so while hapa and I and IAMP seem to feel that voting causes discussion, I was a little nervous that the others might not feel that way.
For now, I'm going to leave my vote on him, but if things change I'll likely change again to cause discussion. Need to read the thread more and not be playing CS:GO to decide who I want to stimulate
##Vote: Drazak
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EPT
