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On October 28 2012 21:50 Djodref wrote:
Seriously if we could have lynched someone during N1, Kush would have be lynched.
Mafia wants to keep that kind of players in the game. 1% chance of him being killed by the mafia.
I don't understand why you cannot see it.
On October 28 2012 21:40 Dandel Ion wrote:
I don't know which one is the scum kill.
It's more likely it's Sylver, that I admit. But in no way, shape or form is it IMPOSSIBLE that Kush was the scum kp.
Where exactly do I "not see it"? Or do you mean that I should be completely convinced, like you are?
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@everyone:
Please be so kind as to share your current scumreads. Or even thoughts. Or anything at all, really. Even what you had for lunch is more interesting than NOTHING AT ALL.
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Ok, I'm going to preface this by some WIFOM, although I think it's merited in this case.
Looking at the situation right now, the only one at risk of lynching seems to be Djodref. More importantly, he seems to be completely alone in his plight. I think he's scummy, but this fact alone leads me to believe that one of the following three options must be true:
- Djod is not mafia and all of us suspecting him are all town.
- Djod is not mafia and some of the people suspecting him are scum.
- Djod is mafia and no scum is defending him, in fact, no one has defended him for the entire length of the game.
Looking at these scenarios, and I'm convinced they're the only ones possible, I find the last one to be extremely unlikely. While myself and others have at times at least questioned whether or not Djod was all that super scummy, no one that I know has ever diverted a hypothetical Djod lynch unless it was done very subtly. In fact, the only argument that I feel can be made that he is scum and other scum has diverted attention away from him is the lynches against Inig and da0ud. Kush(and admittedly to a lesser extent myself) were responsible for the latter, while the lynch against Inig was Djod himself in tandem with debears(and possibly someone else, I don't remember, please correct me here if I'm wrong). Lastly, Djod actually switched his vote from Inig to da0ud and was the last one to do so IIRC. To me, scum "securing" a lynch on a townie makes no sense whatsoever. The only ones at risk of actually vote switching near a lynch are actual scum, so protecting themselves against a switch is meaningless.
That to me leaves the first two options and in both of them Djod is not scum. Sure, he could be SK and his actions don't really dispute that but to be honest, I would rather have a possible SK(and I'm not convinced he is) left alone and actually try and lynch mafia. Mostly because an SK isn't that worrisome if we still have a pretty good town vs scum majority.
For that reason, I looked at the possibilities left. Either scum is keeping really quiet and all of us accusing Djod are town, or scum are in fact trying to get Djod lynched. I find the latter more likely, although unfortunately I don't really have a good explanation for why I think that is, it's basically just a hunch, although not an insignificant one.
With that in mind, I went through both Mr. Cheese' and Dandel's filters and lo and behold, upon closer inspection I can't really find any good reasons to think that they are town. Sure, Cheese hasn't done anything particularly scummy but looking at his behaviour as a whole he hasn't done anything particularly town either.
Basically, Cheese's actions amount to suspecting Djod and... well, that's pretty much it. Apart from arguing semantics and policy, that's pretty much his entire contribution.
On the other hand, Dandel is in the same boat, with added baggage in fact. His contributions also amount to pretty much only suspecting Djod but with the added bonus that he said several times that he would tunnel kush, seemingly for no apparent reason. In fact I think the SK/vig(whoever it may be) killing kush actually messed things up quite a bit as I'm now thinking Dandel's entire plan was to tunnel kush simply because he's not a very hard target to attack(for those of you who are new, kush has a... let's say "vivid", reputation). Especially since he got a townie lynched.
Finally, almost every single post of Dandel so far in the game has been fluffy at best, scummy at worst. He kept bringing up policy voting well after most people had started talking about it, as if he wanted the discussion to continue. His so called "case" on Inig was pure OMGUS and finally, his unwillingness to actually switch from that OMGUS case even though he actually admitted himself that it wasn't a very good case. In fact, the two people that could have actually been switched to were either Djod(who he at the time had said he wasn't convinced was scummy) and da0ud(for reasons I now suspect he didn't want to be associated with vote flipping onto a townie).
So, to sum up my case for why Dandel Ion is scum
- Lots of useless posts, particularly lots of posts nitpicking on people's arguments instead of entirely disagreeing with them.
- Not wanting to switch from Inig even though his reasons for voting him were weak and OMGUS.
- His absolutely ridiculous strategy of tunnelling kush no matter what for no apparent reason whatsoever.
- The context of the last point revealing kush to be green but supposedly killed by an SK and not scum.
I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this matter, since I'm feeling pretty good about my case at this point.
Oh and, ##Vote: Dandel Ion
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On October 28 2012 22:06 Dandel Ion wrote:
@everyone:
Please be so kind as to share your current scumreads. Or even thoughts. Or anything at all, really. Even what you had for lunch is more interesting than NOTHING AT ALL. Ask and you shall receive.
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We still have no insight from Nackht at all. He has only said that he was sure that Kush was scum.
I'm not sure about Cheese anymore. I'm null on him right now. His case shows good scumhunting efforts, even if they go in the wrong direction. Him using a "djo attempt to discredit me" paragraph in his case is a towntell for me because it shows that he has natural sense of innocence (in opposition of the usual self-culpability). If he still believes I am scum after my answers to his case, I want him to look for my potential scumbuddies. No by association by the way because I am town and anyway you should wait for me to flip to start this kind of thing.
I want dandel to decide if I am scum or SK and bring consequent proofs to his case.
I'm very very wary of Nackht. He has given us nothing (expect him being sure that Kush was scum) so far and I don't understand why a town replacement would be retaining info like he does. The other thing speaking against him is that I don't have a strong scumread at the moment and it makes the probability for the lurkers to be mafia higher. So I hope that we have a modkill on Roco today.
I'm going to vote pressure him to make nackht talk. Keeping this vote on him until he gives us a complete assessment of what is going on here according to him. He promised it but he has just given us a "lol" so far.
##Vote nackhtjogger
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I agree that nackh's participation has been worrisome at best but other than asking him to talk I'm not sure what we can do. I suppose I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to lynching him but only if Dandel turns out to not be an option.
But we also need to consider the very real possibility that Roco gets modkilled and flips town. Sure he could be scum and hope is great and all but we can't in any way distance ourselves from the possibility that we are only 4 town left in the game.
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@ Alsn
Thank you I was feeling very very lonely...
I need to check dandel's filter right now. But I would like to add that his vote on me for being SK or scum makes suddenly more sense.
If he is mafia, he knows that I'm not mafia, hence him accusing me of being the SK much more easily than a town would be. I didn't understand how he came to this supported by thrawn's meta.
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I said I'd tunnel Kush because I find it very hard to get a proper feel-read on him. I hope at this point, I've referenced NMM XXVII enough times, and this too, is a leftover from that game.
I basically assumed he was town in that game because his actions would have been absolutely stupid as scum. Lo and behold, he actually was scum.
I don't understand how his brain works, so I basically decided I wouldn't give him any benefit of the doubt, concerning anything.
But he comes in, plays scummy, and doesn't respond to any of the cases/concerns on him (expect saying they are "bad", nothing else given).
Can you honestly tell me you didn't find Kush scummy too? Cause I don't think you can.
I did not "only" suspect Djo at all. Yes, I tunneled Kush.
I didn't switch to daoud, because, while the post that got him lynched was a huge "wtf" moment, I did not find him more scummy than Inig. Yea, the cases on Inig weren't too strong, but the reasons some people had for voting daoud were even worse.
I'll openly disagree with your whole post. From your useless WIFOM you just included so that your post looks bigger/like it had actual content, to the way you excuse everyone that voted daoud (who did you vote for again?), the way you bring up things we've been over already...
You used to be decent at mafia, but somehow you got terrible. I think you're not using the Newbie games right, usually you'd try to get better.
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On October 28 2012 23:02 Djodref wrote:
@ Alsn
Thank you I was feeling very very lonely...
I need to check dandel's filter right now. But I would like to add that his vote on me for being SK or scum makes suddenly more sense.
If he is mafia, he knows that I'm not mafia, hence him accusing me of being the SK much more easily than a town would be. I didn't understand how he came to this supported by thrawn's meta.
That was not even thrawn's own meta, he was heavily coached that game.
I'd assume you coach will have told you the same thing thrawn heard.
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On October 28 2012 22:59 Alsn wrote:
I agree that nackh's participation has been worrisome at best but other than asking him to talk I'm not sure what we can do. I suppose I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to lynching him but only if Dandel turns out to not be an option.
But we also need to consider the very real possibility that Roco gets modkilled and flips town. Sure he could be scum and hope is great and all but we can't in any way distance ourselves from the possibility that we are only 4 town left in the game.
@ Alsn
I'm pretty sure that we have a 5vs3vs1 situation. As I said, jailkeeper+detective+vig seems imb4...
This into mind, I've been looking at the players list and I've tried to find the 4 other townies. I'm still leaning town on Rad and debears. I was having doubts about you but you look like your town self right now 
My guts are telling me that Inig is a newbie town right now and I'm going to follow my guts on him for the time going.
Cheese is null right now but I don't like his "safe" play and him cherry-picking in my filter.
dandel was null so far.
So it makes the chances for Roco and Nackht to be mafia quite high in my opinion. That's why I would prefer a modkill to a replacement. A mafia player being replaced at the end of D2 with a 2 post filter is just too good for the mafia.
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Resorting to name calling are we?
"Openly disagree with your whole post", seriously? You expect me to let you off the hook by saying I'm stupid and terrible without even pointing out why my post is terrible?
I love it how you try and discredit me purely on the basis that you think I'm bad. In fact, you are doing the exact same thing almost the entire thread criticised Djod for doing(with good reason I might add). This only reinforces my case against you, two people have called you out so far, first Inig, then me. Both times you've reacted with "Y U SO TERRIBAD?!?!". I expect better than that if you want me to consider you anything but almost confirmed scum.
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I did respond to your post, but you seem to only see what you want to.
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On October 28 2012 23:08 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 23:02 Djodref wrote:
@ Alsn
Thank you I was feeling very very lonely...
I need to check dandel's filter right now. But I would like to add that his vote on me for being SK or scum makes suddenly more sense.
If he is mafia, he knows that I'm not mafia, hence him accusing me of being the SK much more easily than a town would be. I didn't understand how he came to this supported by thrawn's meta. That was not even thrawn's own meta, he was heavily coached that game. I'd assume you coach will have told you the same thing thrawn heard.
@ dandel
If you think that I am SK, please bring a proper case against me. Please show specifically how thrawn posts and mine are similar.
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Oh and no, I don't buy your supposed reasons for tunnelling kush. He presented a case on da0ud that made sense. He did so with what we now know to be pure intentions. Simply tunnelling him because you don't want to find out his intentions the proper way is bad strategy at best and at worst it's scum motivated.
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EBWOP:
And I would love you to bring more arguments to it.
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On October 28 2012 23:21 Alsn wrote:
Oh and no, I don't buy your supposed reasons for tunnelling kush. He presented a case on da0ud that made sense. He did so with what we now know to be pure intentions. Simply tunnelling him because you don't want to find out his intentions the proper way is bad strategy at best and at worst it's scum motivated.
Uhm, no?
I have a scum feel from somebody, I'll tunnel him for as long as it takes for him to look town to me, instead.
Kush didn't give me any reason to assume he was town, so I had to keep assuming he was scum.
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If his case made sense or not wasn't even the point that made me think he was scum, you're making up things now.
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I have a few minutes so here are my reads:
Djo is scum or SK - I am sure of it. I have little reason to vote anyone else at this point
Dandel is leaning scummy for me; he completely avoided one of my questions:
On October 27 2012 01:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
@ Dandel
What's all this stuff about you being confused and unsure? Yeah, the thread is jampacked with goodies concerning multiple participants, but that's to be expected. Don't try to play the "confused" card. It's almost as bad as the "noobie-card"
I find this especially odd since you've advocated against using the noobie card, then proceed to use the confused card which is just as bad.
Rad is leaning town for me. Although that association case between me + Kush bore no merit at all.
Debears. Hard to tell. Pretty null, especially since we haven't heard from him in a while.
Nackhtogger. He's afk.
Roco. He's afk.
Inig. He has a few walls of text that are exactly that: Walls of text. A little scumhunting here or there but I don't see a reason that I should consider town as of yet.
Alsn. I see his case on Dandel. I agree that he looks fairly scummy at this point. But I'm sticking by my Djo lynch unless someone can seriously convince me otherwise.
I'm very interested in hearing from the two lurkers, Inig, and Debears on their thoughts on everyone including myself but especially Djo/Dandel.
To get this out of the way:
##Vote: Djodref
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On October 28 2012 23:25 Dandel Ion wrote:
If his case made sense or not wasn't even the point that made me think he was scum, you're making up things now. His case making sense means at the very least the actions involving his case should make him read town which is very relevant indeed. Please bring up examples of where he was "scummy" before your first announcement that you would tunnel him because I sure can't find any.
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Cheese, could you be convinced to vote Dandel or at the very least vote Dandel during D3 if the game isn't over at that point?
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EPT
