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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 30 2012 10:42 HiroPro wrote: mafia usually doesn't lose kp with only 1 death. Having to kill 2 scum in a Mini before there are less than 2 KP is rough. If its 9/4 split, then day2 is MYLO. | ||
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Keirathi
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Mattchew I'm sure he has some town games somewhere in his filter, but every game I've seen him play in recent memory he's been scum (I Can't Believe Its Not Themed, DBZ, LVII). So what has he done this game? On September 30 2012 08:35 Mattchew wrote: Alright lets do this leeerrroooyy... anyway i am town and actually intend to put a lot of effort and thought into this game. I feel that the only person I havent played with(?) or atleast recognize them is crossfire99. I will be reading up on him(her?) game history now Claimed town. On September 30 2012 09:30 Mattchew wrote: I finished reading crossfire and eating dinner someone that has played in the past aperture game, what was crucial to town winning? Made sure we knew that he was town again. On September 30 2012 09:33 Mattchew wrote: also i will be away from my computer for around 45 minutes. lets get discussion started? any thoughts to possible scum/town breakdowns? 10/3 9/4 9/2/2? Started some pointless setup talk that hasn't actually generated useful discussion. I don't see any way that speculating on scum team/third party numbers is working towards finding scum. It's just bullshit to fill up the thread, and everyone regardless of alignment can reasonably comment on it. So yea, I'm thinking Mattchew rolled scum yet again. ##Vote: Mattchew | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 11:31 HiroPro wrote: Since when is saying "i'm town" alignment-indicative? It's not necessarily alignment indicative. That doesn't mean that it can't be alignment indicative. I caught scum in Newbie XIX for saying "Hey guys, I'm town!" like 100 times throughout the thread. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 11:37 iamperfection wrote: was mattchew one of those players........................................................? Of course not. Why is that relevant? Its just a heuristic that I am now watchful for. What does a townie gain from saying "I'm town!" a bunch? | ||
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Keirathi
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That's my only scum game. I was town in Newbie XVII, XIX, and XXII, I Can't Believe Its Not Themed, and Dwarf Fortress. | ||
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Keirathi
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 ##Unovte For completeness sake, though, I did go back through all of your games up to Movie Star, and the only pattern was that you seem to claim town if you get into the thread early, and otherwise say you are catching up and reading the thread in your first post | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 14:00 Drazerk wrote: ##vote Keirathi I'll be honest only a survivor / third party / idiot would back off a case that early with that little pressure against it. Now I'm going to go to bed. So you're saying you thought my case was good enough that I should have stuck with it? Yea...no. | ||
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Keirathi
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I wanted to derail the setup speculation. I did that. Simple enough. | ||
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On September 30 2012 14:32 Nisani201 wrote: ##Vote: Drazerk I don't understand why he's still pushing against Keirathi. His plan was clearly poorly thought out, I see no scum motivation behind it. Drazerk is taking a newbie mistake and calling it scum play. Poorly thought out newbie mistake? Here's a hint: we're still not talking about setup speculation! Trying to guess if there's 3 scum, or 4 scum, or 3 scum 1 third-party etc wasn't moving us towards actually catching any of them. As far as him still pushing me, its not a big deal. I'm a big kid, I can handle myself. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 14:37 Mattchew wrote: i also thought keirathi's sudden turnaround strange. i am trying to figure out if it was bad town play or nervous scum/3rd party play What was strange about it? | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 14:54 Mattchew wrote: you admit your case is bad, which lacks confidence and is passive. if this was a plan, I don't see the town benefit by revealing it so quickly, and I don't see the town benefit to letting it play out either. Its easy to say you wanted to promote non-setup discussion; but if you were leading a discussion based off of admittedly bad logic that is just as bad for town if not worse because of the alignment implications. By revealing your hand so quickly you didn't allow for the discussion to shift. its super easy to now say told ya so, but in reality you didn't know where discussion would head when you admitted your plan. also, you used a lot of smiley faces in your passive post making it even more passive and scummy If I lacked confidence, why would I have even made the case to start with? Here was my thought process: I started reading the thread, and I saw the last few posts all speculating about the setup in a closed setup game. And I'll admit, I even threw my own comment out there. Then I realized that setup speculation wasn't doing anything to actually benefit town. So I went back and looked for who started the discussion, and it was you. Then I looked back at your earlier posts, remembered you seem to roll scum a lot, and you were doing a thing that I've personally used to identify scum. None of those things are major scum points, and the fact that you roll scum a lot isn't even relevant at all. I was satisfied with your defense (particularly your point about the "what can I expect this game" response), so I unvoted. There really wasn't anymore to it than that. The fact that we're still not talking about setup speculation is, of course, a bonus. PS, dunno if you were serious about the smileys=scum heuristic, but if so thats even worse than my "I'm Townie Town Town!"=scum heuristic. | ||
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Keirathi
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Anything besides trying to guess how many scum there are. I might not have the most games under my belt, but I'm fairly confident in my ability to play this game. I can defend myself and have no qualms answering any questions to me, or accusations against me. I just want it to be noted that I'm not the one using the newbie card here, its other people calling me a newbie. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 22:22 JingleHell wrote: People seem to be missing this. The first time he said it, he had some options in there, but now Draz seems focused on "Third Party" for Keirathi... Not scum, but potentially third party (based on all that same speculation about setup)? You suggesting you know who IS scum, Drazerk? ##Vote Drazerk Can you explain this logic leap to me? Here's the first quote you were talking about when he had some "options": On September 30 2012 14:00 Drazerk wrote: ##vote Keirathi I'll be honest only a survivor / third party / idiot would back off a case that early with that little pressure against it. Now I'm going to go to bed. Survivor IS third party. So he said I either had to be third party or idiot. I'm not really sure where you get that he's suggesting he therefor knows who scum is. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 16:14 Keirathi wrote: I think the misconception here is that people seem to think that I wanted my case on Matt to generate discussion about Matt. That's not really the case. I just wanted to generate discussion, period. If that discussion was about Matt? Great. About me? Great. About people who jumped in to defend or attack one or the other of us? Still great. Anything besides trying to guess how many scum there are. *snip* Again, I didn't need my case on Mattchew to generate discussion about HIM. I would have happily discussed it with other people if they came into the thread before he responded, but once he did and I was satisfied with his response (plus my meta check through his games), I really had no reason to leave my vote there. I'm certainly not sure that he's town or anything, but his response was townie enough that I unvoted. Here's a question for you, though. What's my scum motivation for doing that? | ||
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On October 01 2012 04:22 ghost_403 wrote: I'm pretty happy lynching Keirathi right now. He's putting way too much effort into scumhunting on Day 1 to build up towncred. Looking through previous filters when there's been, what, twenty posts in this game? No, that's not something that townies do. I vote we lynch him today, and mementoss tomorrow. WHO'S WITH ME. ##vote keirathi Are you fucking serious? | ||
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Keirathi
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Townies don't put in effort? That's the dumbest reasoning for a vote I've ever heard. | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 05:03 austinmcc wrote: Scummy motivation? Just look at your explanation, that you wanted to stop setup speculation and move into something else, generate discussion, because it would help town. RAWR, i am keirathi, the hero who saved town from a slow game, scum would never do that, feed me your town cred! Do you really think I got town cred for making a weak case and then unvoting? Lol. Here's how I see it: I could have just said "Hey guys lets stop speculating about the setup and someone do some scumhunting!", or I could have pointed out what I found mildly scummy and accomplished the same goal in a better way because now people actually have something to actually talk about. | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 05:59 gonzaw wrote: At Keirathi: 1)Are you going to start scumhunting soon? When I feel like there's enough for me to make an actual case that I believe in. Until them, I'm content to ask questions and discuss the current goings-on in the thread to build my reads. | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 06:09 gonzaw wrote: 1)How do you stand in respect to Drazerk? Do you agree with Nisani/Jingle/etc about his scummy behaviour or do you think he's town or are you not sure? I don't think Drazerk is scummy. I feel like he was just legitimately trying to keep the discussion rolling after I unvoted. You'll notice that I didn't question his motives, I just responded to his questions and kept rolling. He was right to call out my unvote. He's was wrong about my intentions, but it was the right move for a townie. On October 01 2012 06:09 gonzaw wrote: 2)Same about JingleHell. Do you agree with what I said about him or not? Or do you think it's not enough to judge his alignment, and if so why? You copied my question to JH, then added lurking on top of it. There's not really much to agree or disagree with. Yes, his logic leap didn't make sense when he vote for Drazerk. And yes, he was lurking. Town JH is known for being aggressive and leader-y, so until he steps up, I am wary of him. However, I do at least understand his argument about Drazerk now that he explained it. On October 01 2012 06:09 gonzaw wrote: 3)Do you think ghost acting like an idiot and wanting to lynch you for mind-boggling reasons makes him scum, reckless townie trying to play the "aggressive hero" role, or is not enough to judge his alignment? This is the harder one. I honestly don't think that ghost is an idiot. He hosted two of my three newbie games, and definitely saw the amount of effort I put into Newbie XIX within the first 12 hours of replacing in, so theoretically he should know the way I play better than anyone else in this game (I've played in one game with about half of the players in this game). So why is he acting like that? Honestly, my first thought was Village Idiot, but I'm not sure if there's a VI-type role, and I think its pointless to speculate about it so I didn't mention it. I 100% think what he has said was anti-town, though. As a bonus answer, Nisani is the other person (besides ghost) that I am particularly interested in right now. I feel like him jumping in to defend me against Drazerk because I was a "newbie" was taking advantage of an easy situation. | ||
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Keirathi
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No comments on my reply? Do you agree with my thinking? | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 09:05 Drazerk wrote: The thread is like 9 pages long lol I know, but it took me 5 pages to actually find s&b's posts. | ||
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Keirathi
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I never use All so I didn't think about that. Oops! | ||
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Keirathi
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s&b: hardcore lurking. I honestly expect more from him. austin: weird flip-flop on me, and again not as active as I would expect Mementoss: null. I'm curious what about him gives you a weird feeling? Your only mentions of him so far are in passing, or asking other people questions. iamperfection: slight meta-based town read, despite his lurkiness. | ||
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On October 01 2012 13:19 HiroPro wrote: So what are you sure of? What did you think about ghost's vote on Keirathi? You mind actually responding to anything that's going on in the thread? You and I both know that Drazerk is not going to change the way he plays. You can start by responding to my question here: Maybe you could give your opinions on those questions? So far, the only real opinion you've given on anyone in this game was "I don't think your point about JingleHell was very good". | ||
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Keirathi
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So how about an opinion on austin changing his conclusion towards my case super easily? And maybe a quick read of Mementoss while you're at it? | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote: here's what im thinking right now hiro might be scum because he's posted a lot of small one-liners and asked a bunch of questions but not actually contributed much of anything of his own in terms of reads or analysis. drazerk might be scum because he switched his read from keirathi to me for little reason. not giving any reason why he unvoted keirathi shows that he doesn't really care about who he votes for, he just wants to push the thread around. he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired. mattchew is sort of trying to scumhunt. this is very helpful in narrowing down his playstyle. he's either doing his bus-all-the-scum scum routine, or he's actually townie. mattchew very rarely makes up fake scum reads on town players when he's scum, he either posts cases on his teammates or just lurks the shit out of everything. so what that means is you can put a high amount of trust that his reads are genuine - he's either bussing or actually trying to find scum. crossfire99 - pretty focused on drazerk nisani - lol. what a "case". also ##vote: drazerk I think he's probably scum and I want him out of this game. I seem to remember Mattchew making a rather large case against gonzaw in Not Themed. But I think it was on like day3, after he pushed his scumbuddy talis on day 2 and just coasted day 1. | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 14:33 strongandbig wrote: oh also keirathi i think you said you have a slight meta-based townread on iamperfection, could you tell us about his meta in your opinion? if you didn't say this then whoever did say this pls answer that question but i think it was keirathi. It was me. I've played with scum iamperfection in a newbie game a couple months ago, and observed a few of his recent townie games. In his townie games he is cocky, while in his scum game he was careful and lurky. I know it was a while ago, and that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be cocky if he rolled scum again if he was more confident in his play, but my initial read was town. | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 14:30 strongandbig wrote: @hiro's question about keirathi's plan so i assume the plan you're talking about is "make a shitty case on purpose to start discussion" ? it's a god-awful plan, the only discussion you'll start is people saying "what a shitty case, you sure you give a fuck this game?" also kenpachi rule lol also keirathi says - first drazerk "legitimately trying" as town? you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. second this reads pretty sketchy to me, scum like to ingratiate themselves with townies who are suspicious of them as long as their lynch appears remote. so yeah, keirathi not looking too great to me right now. but i'm not sure about it - i'm actually not sure if you're right to call it a "plan" - sometimes townies do make weak cases right at the start of a day to get the ball rolling. it's just a thing, not a plan or a gambit or whatever. So I think he may not have been thinking to himself, 'i'll make this case as shitty as possible to bait out responses', but he could have been thinking 'this is dead so even though there's nothing to work with i'll do what i can." First point: I've never played with, nor read a game that Drazerk was in afaik (well, except for the Caller game thats running. But that was a troll game to begin with). So I honestly have no idea what his meta is supposed to be. He jumped in and gave me something to talk about when my case was shut down. Second point: so, its impossible for a townie to have a town read on someone just because that person is suspicious of you? I don't understand that logic. And its a lose-lose situation for me. If I think he's scummy, someone calls it OMGUS. If I think he's townie, you say I'm ingratiating myself. | ||
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On October 01 2012 14:58 HiroPro wrote: Do you think that keirathi would make points like this as scum? They read pretty townie to me. While I appreciate the read, this in particular shouldn't give you a townie read on me. Go read the post game comments from GSL Open Mini Mafia. I specifically mentioned that I spent a lot of time in filters and digging through meta to strengthen (or crush) cases that I was planning to make, even though I was scum. | ||
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On October 01 2012 20:28 Mementoss wrote: His play sure looks careful and lurker to me. Compare to this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250 where he is pretty agressive and constantly active throguhout the discussion from the get go. You completely missed the entire point of the post that you quoted of mine. On October 01 2012 05:43 iamperfection wrote: We are seriously going to allow this crap? Ive played about 6 games of tl mafia and this is the biggest pile of crap ive seen yet. ## Vote ghost_403 This post, in my experience, shows townie iamperfection mentality. The fact that he's been lurking hasn't had anything to do with his alignment this game, because he has 3 games going at once and hasn't been posting in any of them. | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 23:24 gonzaw wrote: Voting ghost is too easy. So, he's too scummy to be scum? That's such a terrible argument, and TL Towns in general have this stigma of "scum would never do something that I think is stupid" and talk themselves out of good lynches. Just look at Risen's vote-change shenanigans in...LIII. I know I've been guilty of it myself, but is this really townie ghost? I haven't seen any games of his (except for the tail end of Death Note, recently), so I don't really know. I guess I'll go dig through his filters. | ||
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On October 02 2012 00:36 JingleHell wrote: I led several rather key mislynches. As town. Pushing Grush was about the least embarrassing part of my performance, because frankly, he's useless. I do wish he'd died earlier in the game, though. I don't remember all the specifics at this point off the top of my head, but almost every time I convinced people on someone, it made the overall situation worse. Clearly, if I make too much case out of too little, it doesn't serve the town, so I'm letting things solidify in my mind and in the thread a bit more before going into hardcore push people mode, because once I do that, there's a tendency for someone to get lynched. Being in a town-leader-ish position is only good if I don't also get nominated as the scumteam's MVP as town for it. How long, exactly, do you plan to wait? Theres only 7.5 hours until the deadline. | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 06:54 Nisani201 wrote: I recently played a game on another forum where I was pushed hard throughout the entire game because I made a small "newbie mistake" at the beginning. This game seems very similar and I don't want us to make the same mistake. Not sure what to think of ghost, I think it's pretty stupid for anyone to vote Kei. I'm also not sure why drazerk took his vote off kei, since it doesn't look like anything really changed his mind. I also think that Mementoss's "analysis" post was really stupid. It was a bad case on austin and the other half was him calling people town. He's on my radar but I'm still more confident in Drazerk. Can we talk more about this guy? 1) Jumps in to white-knight the "newbie". Such an easy thing for scum to do, especially on day 1 in a relatively inactive game. Admittedly, a townie could do that too, but I find it hard to believe that a townie would have that strong of a conviction that I was town making a "newbie mistake" rather than a scum making a dumb one. 2) "I think its pretty stupid for anyone to vote Keir, but why did drazerk unvote Keir?" Can anyone explain that logic? If its dumb for someone to vote me, why is it also dumb for someone with their vote on me to unvote me? | ||
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Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 00:58 austinmcc wrote: Those jumps are based on what you did in the meantime. Here's my initial post: I didn't see your unvote for weak reasons as scummy. Drazerk had just posted that it was third party or idiot, I didn't find it to be telling at all because the reasoning behind the vote in the first place didn't seem strong. Then after that post, you give your explanation and justification. THAT is what I feel is scummy, reminds me of scum. I'm not concerned about you unvoting based on some weak comments from matt (What drazerk mentioned and what I didn't find scummy), I'm concerned about you based on your later explanation where you claim to have wanted discussion and opinions yet unvote before any of that ever appears. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. But I've said all that I can say about it, you're just choosing to interpret it as some super-pro scum motivation. I've been completely open with my thoughts and opinions throughout the entirety of the game, and haven't shied away from having people talking about me. On October 02 2012 00:58 austinmcc wrote: Right now, I'm scummy on you. I'm not going to lead a crusade to lynch you because the way you explained a plan reminds of what a scum player in another game did, however. For now I'm looking elsewhere for today's lynch, and I'm watching you. I'm alright with the way you discussed Ghost when talking to Gonzaw, I don't think someone can get a free pass for a terrible vote and then not pushing it at all. I'm not really sure what you mean by the bolded part. You think my explanation is similar to what scum did in another game, and you think I'm scummy, but you don't want to lynch me? On October 02 2012 00:58 austinmcc wrote: If you want me to keep looking at you, fine. What's up with this? You've been doing more in thread, but it seems like you're getting on JH for saying he's doing exactly what you've said you're doing. Why is it fine for you to wait to scumhunt until you've got enough to make a case, but it's not alright for JH to wait before pushing someone? The difference is there's less than 1/4 of the day left, and JH hadn't done much at all so far besides making excuses as to why he isn't playing to his town meta. | ||
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On October 02 2012 01:18 JingleHell wrote: I'd love to know where you get the absurd notion that all I've done is "make excuses". Providing my reasoning for being careful (when you yourself pressed for that reasoning to be explained no less) is hardly making excuses. Or do you want townies to lead mislynches? I specifically said hadn't. IE, prior to my question, your lack of contribution in the thread in general was different than your town meta, and you made some excuses as to why that was. I didn't say your excuses were bad. They were just excuses. And no, I want townies to lynch scum. You hadn't been active or engaged in conversations and refining your reads. You were just content to let other people talk about stuff and only make comments when pressed about it. | ||
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I am loathe to give ghost a free pass for such atrocious reasoning, and then complete inactivity. He hasn't even attempted to explain himself, and I have trouble trying to conjecture a townie reasoning for it. My gut still says he is a VI-type role though, and it would make his play perfectly understandable. Nisani on the otherhand, I can definitely believe is scum. His posts just reek of knowing my alignment beforehand. ##vote: Nisani201 | ||
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On October 02 2012 01:38 Mattchew wrote: Keirathi explain to me why you want to lynch ghost I already did. On October 01 2012 06:25 Keirathi wrote: This is the harder one. I honestly don't think that ghost is an idiot. He hosted two of my three newbie games, and definitely saw the amount of effort I put into Newbie XIX within the first 12 hours of replacing in, so theoretically he should know the way I play better than anyone else in this game (I've played in one game with about half of the players in this game). So why is he acting like that? Honestly, my first thought was Village Idiot, but I'm not sure if there's a VI-type role, and I think its pointless to speculate about it so I didn't mention it. I 100% think what he has said was anti-town, though. His whole reasoning for voting me was because I "looked through filters. and townies don't put in that much effort early in day 1". Which is such bullshit reasoning, that I can't even fathom a motivation for making it outside of VI. | ||
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On October 02 2012 01:59 Mattchew wrote: if you dont think ghost is an idiot you should try to extract the actual meaning from his posts than to just take them at hastey face value. He is saying, and I agree with, that your early "case" seemed forced and that you were faking putting in that much effort. You even agree with this when you admitted your case was bad and just meant for discussion. do you have anything else or is your entire read based on failed reading comprehension? ghost_403 wrote: Looking through previous filters when there's been, what, twenty posts in this game? No, that's not something that townies do. He didn't say I was faking putting in effort. He said that putting in that much effort early game is not something that a townie would do. | ||
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On October 02 2012 02:09 Keirathi wrote: He didn't say I was faking putting in effort. He said that putting in that much effort early game is not something that a townie would do. EBWOP: I guess he could have meant that he thought I was faking the effort and just making bullshit up. But that's demonstrably not the case. | ||
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On October 02 2012 02:13 JingleHell wrote: If you said "Not demonstrably", I could maybe agree. Saying "demonstrably not" is a bit harder to see. Take a look through Mattchew's meta and tell me if I was making bullshit up when I said: On September 30 2012 13:01 Keirathi wrote: For completeness sake, though, I did go back through all of your games up to Movie Star, and the only pattern was that you seem to claim town if you get into the thread early, and otherwise say you are catching up and reading the thread in your first post | ||
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On October 02 2012 02:24 Mattchew wrote: this is funny cause you were faking effort and making bullshit up as you admitted Where did I say I was faking effort and making bullshit up? I did catch someone as scum for saying "I'm town!" a bunch, and have been paranoid about it ever sense. And you did start the setup speculation, which I felt wasn't benefitting town. Both of those things might have been weak points, but they weren't WRONG. They were just weak. | ||
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On October 02 2012 02:28 Keirathi wrote: Where did I say I was faking effort and making bullshit up? I did catch someone as scum for saying "I'm town!" a bunch, and have been paranoid about it ever sense. And you did start the setup speculation, which I felt wasn't benefitting town. Both of those things might have been weak points, but they weren't WRONG. They were just weak. EBWOP: When I said it was a bad case, it was a bad case in that it was never going to get you lynched. Not that I was lying or making stuff up. I gut reaction was that you were scummy based on your first posts, but then when you defending yourself and talked through it with me, I changed my mind. | ||
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On October 02 2012 03:04 Mattchew wrote: lets expand on this... what do you think of his contributions to the game. What do you think of his read on ghost? Do you agree with his reasoning? What would make you think he is town? A counterpoint: do you disagree with my assessment of iamperfection? Did you go check his meta yourself, or did you just think "nah, Keirathi is a noob there's no way he could be right. iamperfection is definitely scum because he's not contributing."? For reference, his scum game was Newbie XIX. He was completely neutral in his tone throughout the game, lurked, then just sheeped onto the popular case each day. His attitude as town in his recent games is just completely different than his demeanor was in that game. Again, I'm not giving him a 100% town read, because it is possible that his scum game has changed over time as he got more comfortable, but there's no way I would want to lynch him today. | ||
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On October 02 2012 02:32 austinmcc wrote: I don't like Mattchew for scum, he's my strongest town-read right now. I don't like gonzaw for scum atm, although it'll take more time to figure that one out. I don't like me for scum, because I'm not. So those posts are out. Care to give some reasoning for those reads? | ||
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On October 02 2012 04:12 austinmcc wrote: Found Mattchew's question to be real but posed in a silly way (What is your read on iamperfection?). Gave him a real answer, but started with a silly beginning. I could buy that answer, but it still doesn't explain why after your Vote+Unvote, you kept talking about iamperfection like you wanted to lynch him. On October 02 2012 01:43 austinmcc wrote: Why am I voting iamperfection over others? *snip* Why am I lynching iamperfection over the other two? *snip* That was your first mention of him, and you seemed to be saying that you thought he was the scummiest of the 3 "lurker" and that one of them was almost certainly scum. But immediately afterwards, you started talking about JH and in your next post, you hopped on the JH wagon. | ||
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On October 02 2012 05:36 ghost_403 wrote: I'm still happy trying to lynch Keirathi today. After his initial case on Mattchew, he's done more or less no analysis this game. If looking through austin's previous games doesn't yield anything interesting, I might spend a bit more time staring at Keirathi's filter and write up my thoughts on it. Please do. And little to no analysis? I've given full reads on you, Nisani, drazerk, and JH. Not sure what else you want from me. "He's putting in too much effort to be town" is bullshit and there is literally no way I can even argue that, though. | ||
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On October 02 2012 06:09 ghost_403 wrote: @Keir: I'll give you something to argue about as soon as I'm done writing it. Still convinced Nisani is scum? I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that he is scum. But yes, he is the person I feel strongest about. His posts regarding me reek of someone with extra information. | ||
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On October 02 2012 06:15 ghost_403 wrote: You're one of one person currently on that vote, best of my knowledge. If you're so convinced he's scum, why aren't you pushing for it in the thread? What else can I say? I voted for him, and tried to get people to read why and comment on it, but I was just ignored. Everyone is just giving him a null read (or maybe slightly scummy, but not enough to vote). So I settled for talking about the other ongoing cases and deciding if I find someone scummier than Nisani. I haven't yet. | ||
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On October 02 2012 06:19 Keirathi wrote: What else can I say? I voted for him, and tried to get people to read why and comment on it, but I was just ignored. Everyone is just giving him a null read (or maybe slightly scummy, but not enough to vote). So I settled for talking about the other ongoing cases and deciding if I find someone scummier than Nisani. I haven't yet. EBWOP: What I mean is, the case isn't gaining traction, and I don't think I have enough to convince anyone off of their null reads to vote for him. He has very little in the way of content for people to analyze. Its getting down to crunch time and we're going to have to consolidate onto someone at some point. Last I looked, there were literally votes on 8 out of the 13 players. Continuing to push someone that isn't going to get lynched is useless. | ||
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On October 02 2012 06:26 JingleHell wrote: We don't have to consolidate at all. Greymist is just being confusing. From the OP. The description includes the word majority, but it's a simple majority, with the description not matching what we think of as "Majority lynch". Yes, I realize that. Its basically plurality. That doesn't mean we don't need to consolidate. Having votes out on 2/3 of the players in the game just gives scum a place to hide. IMO, we need a polarized vote so that scum are forced to pick a side and justify it. | ||
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On October 02 2012 06:30 JingleHell wrote: So that we can argue WIFOM with each other regarding what votes mean, when the scum team will actually be divided anyways most likely? No, the main reason I could imagine seeing that as critical would be if we were at MYLO, to make it a little harder for scum to swing last minute. Gimme a minute to find some quotes from discussion I've seen talking about plurality vs majority. 1) From BlazingHand in a coaching QT for a player in a newbie game: plurality lynch is a funny one. Basically, it favors scum because town feels less pressure to consolidate-- people will push competing wagons of similar size. It's more dangerous for scum, though, because the smaller and more numerous wagons increase chances for them to get caught and analyzed. At MYLO it's pretty easy to just say "we all need to vote together", but today it would have been nice if there was a single clear counterwagon for Thrawn for people to focus onto. Personally, if I think the main wagon guy is town, I try to gather up votes from the other counterwagons, also. I say "look guys, you also think thrawn is town, why don't we band together and lynch this guy?" in addition to trying to convince people on the main wagon. The easiest thing to do is just pretend it needs a majority to lynch and work hard to build that majority-- if there are like 3 small wagons, scum can EASILY tip the scales to mislynch, but if there are just 2 wagons, it's harder. 2) From marv's host notes of the same game: goodkarma starts to get it: "Regarding the Plurality Vote System, a little after the fact: The plurality vote system was quite deceptive, and I feel I am in part to blame for the indecision we’ve had in establishing clear lynch candidates. Instead of having 3+ candidates we really needed to consolidate into two and treat it like a majority vote system. We’ve allowed scum to hide by more or less giving them a pass to vote whoever they want as long as they can give some wishy-washy reason why. For this reason, don’t expect to spot them from vote history." I tried going through my irc logs with marv where we were discussing that game and the plurality thing, but it was interspersed with conversation about Dwarf Fortress too. Anyways, that's basically how I feel. Scum can too easily swing the vote onto the candidate they want if everyone just has 1 vote on them at the end of the day. | ||
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On October 02 2012 06:49 ghost_403 wrote: @nisani: Then why did he put more time in it than the case against you, which is something that he said on this page is real? I spent a whopping 5 minutes finding Matt's first posts in each of his games. So yes, I did spent 5 minutes more effort deciding if there was an actual pattern or if he just randomly says whatever he feels like in his first post. Going through Nisani's meta, what exactly would I be looking for to confirm my feeling that he has too much information in this game? Even if I spent hours carefully reading all of his games, anything I find would just be colored with confirmation bias. | ||
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On October 02 2012 06:41 Nisani201 wrote: Ghost, Kei's case on mattchew wasn't supposed to be a genuine case-- he abandoned it quickly because it wasn't real >_> That's not entirely true. It was genuinely things that I found scummy. So instead of just saying "Hey Matt, why did you do that?" I made it into a case. His response felt townie, and there was no pattern with his first posts, so I unvoted. It was weak, but it was a real question. | ||
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I'm still curious how you can think I was putting in "too much effort to be town", when you have first-hand seen the amount of effort I put in as a townie in your games. | ||
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On October 02 2012 07:08 austinmcc wrote: Okay, finally seeing some differentiation in some of our early voters. Right now I'm liking ghost's recent outburst and he replaces nisani as the towniest of the three. I actually really like this point:I was so focused on Keirathi's explanations for his mattchew vote that I overlooked this. It does seem off that the contrived case to get discussion going would have more work put into it, and some reliance on meta, when compared to keirathi's actual vote. Especially when players who have played with nisani said he seems townie based off past games. A player has said he has seen nisani play disinterested as townie before (Mattchew). The only other person that has even given an opinion on him (rather than just regurgitating facts, such as you did in your iamperfection post), was gonzaw saying that Nisani could a bored townie. No frame of reference, just that it was his gut feeling. [QUOTE]On October 02 2012 07:08 austinmcc wrote:For some reason it makes this post hang in my mind: [QUOTE]On October 01 2012 15:22 Keirathi wrote: [QUOTE]On October 01 2012 14:58 HiroPro wrote: Do you think that keirathi would make points like this as scum? They read pretty townie to me. [QUOTE]On September 30 2012 13:01 Keirathi wrote: For completeness sake, though, I did go back through all of your games up to Movie Star, and the only pattern was that you seem to claim town if you get into the thread early, and otherwise say you are catching up and reading the thread in your first post [/QUOTE][/QUOTE] While I appreciate the read, this in particular shouldn't give you a townie read on me. Go read the post game comments from GSL Open Mini Mafia. I specifically mentioned that I spent a lot of time in filters and digging through meta to strengthen (or crush) cases that I was planning to make, even though I was scum. [/QUOTE] Keirathi notes that he went way back into Mattchew's games to be complete, for the case that was intended to generate discussion. Keirathi notes that he spends a lot of time in filters even as scum. [quote] What point are you trying to make here. Am I not taking time to look through Nisani's filter, therefor I'm scum? Or am I scum for looking through Matt's? They seem pretty contradictory. [QUOTE]On October 02 2012 07:08 austinmcc wrote: But now it's just 5 minutes:[QUOTE]On October 02 2012 06:54 Keirathi wrote: [QUOTE]On October 02 2012 06:49 ghost_403 wrote: @nisani: Then why did he put more time in it than the case against you, which is something that he said on this page is real?[/QUOTE] I spent a whopping 5 minutes finding Matt's first posts in each of his games. So yes, I did spent 5 minutes more effort deciding if there was an actual pattern or if he just randomly says whatever he feels like in his first post. Going through Nisani's meta, what exactly would I be looking for to confirm my feeling that he has too much information in this game? Even if I spent hours carefully reading all of his games, anything I find would just be colored with confirmation bias.[/QUOTE] I'm assuming keirathi didn't time himself, but this + the explanation of the mattchew case/vote + things like this + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 01:10 Keirathi wrote: The difference is there's less than 1/4 of the day left, and JH hadn't done much at all so far besides making excuses as to why he isn't playing to his town meta. ##Vote: Keirathi [/QUOTE] No, you know what. Fuck it, I'm tired of answering the same things over and over again. Nothing I can say about those incidents is going to change your mind. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 07:08 austinmcc wrote: Okay, finally seeing some differentiation in some of our early voters. Right now I'm liking ghost's recent outburst and he replaces nisani as the towniest of the three. I actually really like this point:I was so focused on Keirathi's explanations for his mattchew vote that I overlooked this. It does seem off that the contrived case to get discussion going would have more work put into it, and some reliance on meta, when compared to keirathi's actual vote. Especially when players who have played with nisani said he seems townie based off past games. A player has said he has seen nisani play disinterested as townie before (Mattchew). The only other person that has even given an opinion on him (rather than just regurgitating facts, such as you did in your iamperfection post), was gonzaw saying that Nisani could a bored townie. No frame of reference, just that it was his gut feeling. On October 02 2012 07:08 austinmcc wrote:For some reason it makes this post hang in my mind: Keirathi notes that he went way back into Mattchew's games to be complete, for the case that was intended to generate discussion. Keirathi notes that he spends a lot of time in filters even as scum. What point are you trying to make here. Am I not taking time to look through Nisani's filter, therefor I'm scum? Or am I scum for looking through Matt's? They seem pretty contradictory. On October 02 2012 07:08 austinmcc wrote: But now it's just 5 minutes: I'm assuming keirathi didn't time himself, but this + the explanation of the mattchew case/vote + things like this + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 01:10 Keirathi wrote: The difference is there's less than 1/4 of the day left, and JH hadn't done much at all so far besides making excuses as to why he isn't playing to his town meta. ##Vote: Keirathi Fuck it, I'm tired of answering the same things over and over again. Nothing I can say about those incidents is going to change your mind. | ||
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iamperfection I've said it many times. His demeanor is entirely different than his scum demeanor, and almost exactly the same as his townie demeanor. Yes, its a meta read, but one I'm comfortable not voting today. His lurking I don't find particularly scummy either, because he has 3 games going at the same time and is posting about the same amount in all of them. Drazerk Null, maybe leaning slightly town, because of his interactions with me earlier in the game. He had ample opportunity to push me if he was scum, but instead carried on a conversation explaining his thought process. I don't like his interactions with S&B, because they feel full of confirmation bias from a past dispute, which has pulled him back down closer to null. And obviously I'm not going to be voting for myself. I've tried to be open with my thought processes and stayed active when it would have been much easier to lurk along with most of the town. I just flat-out don't have anyone that I have a strong enough scumread and enough supporting evidence of the read to push a lynch on. If you want to lynch me for being indecisive, then there's not really much I can do about that. I've been trying to engage people and gather their reactions and give opinions, but I can't magically make up a case. So honestly I think there's a good chance that the top 3 candidates are all town and scum is having a hay-day. | ||
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On October 02 2012 07:55 Mattchew wrote: draz you there? i am thinking of switching to keirathi who wants to play told ya so if iamperf flips town Of course I'm going to say "I told ya so". This is the exact same fucking situation that happened in Not Themed. Everyone was piling onto Vivax at the end of day 1, and I kept saying "Guys, this is just town Vivax being town Vivax. Look at <Insert whatever game>." I mentioned the specific game he was scum in (Newbie XIX). But no one bothered to go look and compare that to his recent townie games. Fuck you if you want me to do your work for you. | ||
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On October 02 2012 07:59 Keirathi wrote: Of course I'm going to say "I told ya so". This is the exact same fucking situation that happened in Not Themed. Everyone was piling onto Vivax at the end of day 1, and I kept saying "Guys, this is just town Vivax being town Vivax. Look at <Insert whatever game>." I mentioned the specific game he was scum in (Newbie XIX). But no one bothered to go look and compare that to his recent townie games. Fuck you if you want me to do your work for you. EBWOP: Its on the accuser to make the case. If you think my meta read is wrong, then show me examples of him being aggressive/condescending/angsty as scum, or passive/noncommittal/sheepish as town. | ||
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On October 02 2012 08:10 Mementoss wrote: if you read the link I gave to you Keirathi you would have realized his meta didn't match rock band at all. Your objection to my points about iamp was that he was lurking. I specifically mentioned that I thought his lurking was not alignment indicative because he has had basically the same activity level in all 3 games that he's currently playing in. | ||
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But, I was wrong and I am terrible. | ||
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Anyways, I would be pretty happy with an austin lynch today. The fact that he was so back and forth on me for the whole day actually voting, then suddenly deciding that I'm scummy enough for a vote only AFTER ghost comes in and makes his case, when it was pretty clear that it could get some support and maybe drag votes away from iamperfection, is scummy as hell. | ||
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On October 03 2012 11:38 gonzaw wrote: -He's "null" on perfection and spouts some wishywashy stuff about him and puts the usual "I want him to post more reads, I'll wait for him" scum tactic scum always use with their buddies (I should know of I always use it). Oh really? Interesting... Gonzaw wrote: just in case I miss it I'll make a placeholder vote on iamperfection: ##Vote: iamperfection I don't have a strong read on him at all, but after rereading it's the strongest one I have. None of his posts seemed to contribute at all, and even his ghost vote seemed "easy" to latch on. He doesn't have anything else to go on, so it's a safe bet I think. Others I could have placed a vote on would be JingleHell, Mementos or Nisani, but I'm not sure at all about them. I really need to see how they will act towards contributing and towards the lynch, right now they seem passive, lurky and nothing else (I'd consider keeping austin/ghost/others alive until I get more info on them) But considering nobody else has done anything in the last hours (in terms of contributing to the lynch, or discussion, etc) and everybody seemed to have the same "meh I don't really care" apathetic attitude it's difficult to assert if they are doing it out of a scum motivation or are just townies that aren't doing shit because nobody else is doing shit. gonzaw wrote: Hmm, okay people, what do you guys think about lynching one of these guys: JingleHell Mementos Nisani CrossFire austin iamperfection And if you'd switch to one of them, why would you do it? Like I said before I have that same "weird" feeling about them, but again it seems none of them other than Mementos decided to show up to contribute at all. It wouldn't bother me too much since it's D1, but we are getting too close to the lynch deadline and we have to choose a lynch. gonzaw wrote: Yes, it's easy for scum to pick any townie from that list at random and point fingers, but there's no reason to believe him. I trust some people here more than others, and it's the opinion of those that I'll take into account to determine my choice. The "scummy" people would be forced to choose so I can see how they interact and contribute, but not to completely sway my opinion. Well, tough luck I'm leaving right now. You know what, fuck it: ##Unvote: iamperfection ##Vote: JingleHell I don't really buy that "the world is against me" attitude and I haven't seen any contribution from him other than his scummy read on Drazerk (maybe his unvote is not that scummy, but it's the only thing I can go on). Take into account that's a rash vote/placeholder, but oh well. Pretty convenient that you took literally no stance on iamperfection for the whole day besides putting a vote on him and not trying to get him lynched. However, when he started getting some actual momentum, you suddenly didn't think that he was worthy of your vote anymore and you threw it down on JH. And it just happened to be right before you "left" until the deadline too... | ||
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On October 01 2012 10:44 gonzaw wrote: So....hello, anybody? austin, why aren't you making those fluffy walls of text you make when you are town? Why does it seem nobody cares? Damn, what a boring game :/ If this keeps up like this I'll most likely vote S&B, or ghost (if he wasn't intentionally trolling), or Jingle (if I make up my mind about him) or Mementos/Nisani/austin/iamperfection (I have "weird" feelings about all of them but there so little to go on that I can't know for sure). Yeah, not incredibly useful, but oh well... Also, I'm wary as fuck of the way he's trying to assert to everyone that I'm town. He has said "Keirathi is town" so many times this game that it feels like he knows for sure. | ||
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##Vote: gonzaw | ||
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I just can't get over how 1) he accuses Nisani of being wishy-washy towards iamperfection and 2) says thats what what he would do as scum, when thats EXACTLY what he had done this game. When he said that, I thought "Hey, thats a reasonable thing to accuse Nisani for. Lets check gonzaw's filter and see how he interacted with iamp." And it was literally exactly the same thing he was accusing Nisani of. | ||
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So lets go over your main points against me one more time: 1) Early game explanations But this thread needed to move past setup speculation and into people giving real, meaningful opinions and thoughts that they can be held accountable for. Why do I need someone else's opinion on my case to make up my own mind about how well Matt defended himself? You keep saying those two things are mutually exclusive and therefor contradictory. But, first off, Mattchew did give opinions and thoughts (specifically related to me and my case). And second, the only way they would be contradictory is if you think that I said I was satisfied with his explanation and unvoted to shut down all conversation and therefor stop giving opinions. And that's obviously not the case, because 1) its not like the case disappeared just because I unvoted. I just didn't think it was prudent to keep my vote on someone that I didn't particularly think was scum just to force other people to come in and tell me I had a weak case and 2) I even kept discussing it for the next few hours. Again, read the quote carefully. I said I wanted to thread to move past setup speculation and into giving opinions. I honestly didn't care what the opinions were about. Just anything other than trying to guess how many scum/third party there were. 2) JH thing On October 01 2012 06:03 Keirathi wrote: When I feel like there's enough for me to make an actual case that I believe in. Until them, I'm content to ask questions and discuss the current goings-on in the thread to build my reads. On October 02 2012 00:40 Keirathi wrote: How long, exactly, do you plan to wait? Theres only 7.5 hours until the deadline. For one, how is it scummy to ask someone else something that has been asked to me? It was a valid question when gonzaw asked me, and I felt it was a valid question to ask JH. At the time, I honestly felt like JH's contributions were lacking. Which is I assume the same reason gonzaw asked that question to me. And I've played with JH once in the past (well, technically I replaced in after he was killed, but point still stands), and in that game he was actively trying to figure the game out. I honestly didn't feel like he was doing that, and making excuses as to why (and again, I never said they were bad excuses. Just excuses. And I understand the feeling, because had I not been killed off in Newbie XXII, I probably would have been scum team MVP as town as well. It was frustrating in hindsight how terrible all of my reads were). And two, I wasn't attacking him for doing the same thing as me. I was asking him a question and gauging his response. It was late in the day and I felt like his response would go a long way to deciding if I thought he was lurking scum, or being sincere in his excuses. His response felt townie, and I dropped it. Now, lets go into some hypotheticals, since we know that iamperfection was godfather/JOAT: If I am scum, why didn't I do more to push a new target? I mean, I was hard defending iamperfection on a meta read, so why wouldn't I have at least attempted to push someone else who had a few votes? Unless you think me, iamperfection, and drazerk are a scumteam and there was no hope of lynching anyone else. But wait, what about JH earlier (whom you said you have a 100% town read on)? He got up to 2 votes at one point, when iamp only had 3. So basically you think I am a terrible scum who has no regard for his teamate, nor a desire to bus him. That, while being the most active person in the thread, I couldn't be arsed to do more to save the godfather than give a meta read on him, and have a weak case on Nisani. Its not like I was being wishy-washy on iamp. I literally said ever since the first time that he was mentioned that I felt his demeanor was more similar to his town demeanor than his scum demeanor. I may only have one scum game in my history, but I think its pretty clear if you read it that none of those things would have applied to me in that game. | ||
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The only ways I see it being fake are : 1) There is no pbody This is a possibility, but I just remembered something. Check the callee game sometime around night 1 in the aperture mini-game. There was a smurf named pbody that posted something like "beep boop". Afaik, that was before roles went out, so I don't think it could have been s&b faking it. MAYBE s&b saw it and made up some elaborate story, but I doubt it. 2) he is scum with pbody First, bodyguard makes much more sense as a town role. And second, after losing gf day 1, I don't really suspect scum s&b of giving up himself and his teammate on day 2. I think this is a pretty unlikely scenario. 3) he could be scum while pbody is town This is a distinct possibility, but still I feel like bodyguard with multiple lives is more of a town role. At the very least, I wouldn't wan to lynch him today. For now, ##vote: nisani201 | ||
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##unvote ##vote: nisani201 | ||
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So no, I don think p-body would necessarily claim right now. What does he gain from it? S&b isn't set to be lynched, so all he does is out himself. | ||
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On October 05 2012 02:35 JingleHell wrote: This almost makes me feel bad for my original vote on you, except you're aiming for SNB over Gonzaw. Although SNB would probably be third on my list after Gonzaw and Austin, just because I remember him being a bit more assertive when I've seen him. So you think s&b made it all up? What about my point about the p-body smurf in the caller game before roles went out? | ||
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So you think it makes more sense that either he randomly picked the name pbody for his partner, or he saw the pbody smurf and made up an elaborate story and exact role details, than it does him actually telling the truth? I don't know if you're just being ginormously dense, or scum. Because in no way does that scenario make sense to me. | ||
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On October 05 2012 02:51 JingleHell wrote: Suggesting there's only two possible options, one of which must be true, neither of which is pleasant, is a logical fallacy. It's like asking me when I started cheating on my wife. You're ignoring all kinds of random possible options, purely for the sake of discrediting me. You trying Gonzaw's style? You'll notice I don't give a rats fuck about what he tells me to vote either. I gave 4 options when I said why I believed him. That he is telling the truth just makes the most sense. More often than not, the simple answer is the correct one, in my experience. | ||
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On October 05 2012 03:04 JingleHell wrote: No, you gave ME two options. You said I must just be dense or scum, because I either believe he randomly made something up based on either X or Y. That ignores the possibility of safe claims, third party, or all kinds of stuff. Your "YOU MUST BE USELESS OR SCUM FOR DARING TO DISAGREE WITH ME" is an emotional reaction seeking and otherwise generally scummy tactic, but even so, I'm at least giving you the BOTD that you could just be absurdly egocentric. Yea, you're right. I think you either have to be an idiot or scum to want to lynch a claimed KP-reduction role, especially if what he says is true about ATLAS-Pbody interactions. He's basically a double-shot medic every night until he eats enough KP to die. If he's still alive in a couple of days, then maybe you have a case. Right now, all I see are two people hard pushing to get a claimed blue role lynched. Which, as I well know, is something that scum JingleHell would do. | ||
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On October 05 2012 05:29 JingleHell wrote: Uhm, if you mean Newbie XVIII, wasn't that a fakeclaim, and rather blatant? Oh yeah, it was. You're right, he was fake-claiming. AS A TOWNIE. And you, as scum, knew that he was town and pushed the lynch. This feels an awful lot the same. On October 05 2012 05:29 JingleHell wrote: As was discussed, there's plenty of reasons not to trust the claim, and to think he's scummy, so I think you're an idiot or scum to be so absolutist. Besides, who wanted consolidation D1? Nisani seems too easy. Nobody is interested in my scum reads yet, I can at least understand a vote for SNB, so I consolidated. Make up your fucking mind. Or did consolidate mean "Do what I fucking tell you"? Of course, yesterday you were SO right about perfection... Maybe you could explain your read on Nisani a bit then? Considering the only time you've even mentioned him in your entire filter is when you said "I'd rather see SNB than Nisani" as you consolidated onto him. And I would argue that this is the exact opposite of an "easy" lynch. Its 6 votes to 4. That's a pretty polarized town. | ||
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I may have been wrong, but at least I wasn't afraid of being wrong. You just ignored him completely. | ||
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I am P-Body It should be pretty obvious from my posting since S&B claimed, but here I am specifically saying it. *THATS* why I argued for him. My role pm specifically mentioned ATLAS, and his claim matches the details I got in my PM. I can confirm that I target whoever he targets, and he targets whoever I target. And no, I'm not going to disclose my power. | ||
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I seriously don't get the "LYNCH THE TOWNIE TO CONFIRM ANOTHER TOWNIE" sentiment. | ||
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Now I see that Draz threw a lemon grenade at me? I dont know if its real, but: ##Unvote ##Vote: Drazerk If he's scum, he knows that mine+S&B's combined powers would give both of us immunity to him (S&B targets me, i get protected. I target S&B, he gets my power. Then I get my own power, and he gets his own power). So by killing me, he gives himself a chance to actually get S&B off of his ass. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: Nisani201 | ||
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On October 05 2012 07:44 Mattchew wrote: draz and anyone else please vote no lynch If it gets to 4, I will. Otherwise, I can't let S&B die. | ||
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I can't protect KP, therefore I'm less valuable than him. And Nisani is less valuable than me, because at best he's a coinflip. And you're right. I don't KNOW his alignment. But the wording of my role PM highly suggests that we're on the same team. I have no reason to vote for him when there is literally anyone else to vote for. | ||
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On October 05 2012 07:51 Drazerk wrote: They may of written it like that to trick you. Kill him. Remind me never to sign up for a game you're in again. Thanks! | ||
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Whenever (if?) I flip at the deadline, read my role PM closely and decide for yourselves if you think there's any room for interpretting it as us being of different alignments. I honestly don't believe there is. So, if you come to the same conclusion I did, S&B is 99.9% confirmed down. If anyone has any KP protection, for the love of god use it on him. | ||
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So your list is: Town: strongandbig HiroPro Keirathi ghost_403 JingleHell austinmcc Crossfire99 gonzaw Maybe: Drazerk ??: Mattchew That seems...pretty unlikely? | ||
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Right now, I feel like you're both shitting up the thread and both of you are looking scummy for it. | ||
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On October 05 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote: Would you prefer to see a "pretty" case against him? And now for the real question. Will you ACTUALLY read it objectively, or would I be wasting my time? Fact, gonzaw's little "get u lynched scrub" threats don't scare me, I'm town, an all-in probably favors us. So if someone else wants it and actually plans to read it and consider it, I'll post a "proper" case. If it's just going to get dismissed out of hand, can you blame me for not wanting to waste a pisston of time? Of course I'll read it. To be perfectly honest, I have points that I plan to make against both of you, but its too late tonight to get started so it will have to come in the morning. The more solid information, the better IMO. | ||
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One other thing (besides the whole Nisani thing that I mentioned way earlier in day2, that I still think holds merit. He defended himself, but its still scummy regardless of what he says after-the-fact), is how gonzaw, while writing pretty large walls of text, has said throughout the game "I'm in a hurry so I can't explain this right now, ask me about it and I'll explain later". Which, I could understand, under normal circumstances. But nearly every time he's said it, its been in a large post that obviously took time to write. Not necessarily scummy, but its definitely struck me as odd. However, I think we should be lynching Drazerk today. First off, the whole "fight with S&B" thing is such an easy thing to hide behind if he rolled scum. And, ironically, if he rolled scum, who would be the most likely to get him lynched? S&B. So, what has he done? 1) Pushed S&B day 1 2) Claimed to have shot S&B night 1 3) Pushed S&B day 2 4) Still wants to lynch either S&B or me on night 2 Literally everything that he has done in this game has been about eliminated S&B. I'm still not willing to divulge my powers, but if I die, then it gives scum a free kill on S&B, so you can see where 1) that benefits Drazerk and 2) I take offense to wanting to kill the only 99% confirmed town I have in this game. His entire game has felt like purely self-preservation, rather than helping the town win. | ||
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On October 06 2012 04:35 Drazerk wrote: Killing me is self preservation of yourself Kei.... No, killing you is trying to help the town win because I know who two townies are and you're willing to kill both of them off. You just want to kill S&B because you don't like him. There's a remarkable difference in the mindsets here, IMO. | ||
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On October 06 2012 04:41 gonzaw wrote: @Keirathi: I was getting that feel after reading some filters and reasserting town reads I had (haven't finished yet), but I want to ask you one question: S&B got shot, Drazerk claimed the shot as 1-shot vigilante, and nobody else did. We can assume then that no other townie shot S&B, and it was Drazerk either way, right? If Drazerk didn't shoot him, then he's lying, therefore he's scum, but scum shot him and that includes Drazerk; therefore Drazerk shot him. My question is: did Drazerk shoot S&B or Hiro? (S&B claimed he protected Hiro). Unless Drazerk is 3rd party SK I don't see why he'd kill S&B as scum. I mean, scum would waste 2 KP on Mementos and S&B? I don't think I buy that. So basically: is Drazerk 3rd party who killed S&B so S&B didn't get on his ass (or maybe even shot Hiro as SK); or is Drazerk scum and shot Hiro? (or of course another explanation if you have one) Third party with KP is definitely an option. But, I think this is all too much speculation considering we literally have no idea what the roles in this game are. There are literally a mountain of possibilities. There could be a Portal Gun role (aka something like a bus driver), you're forgetting the fact that whoever I target with my role S&B also targets so that person could have been shot and triggered S&Bs hit notifications, etc etc. Look at Drazerk's explanation for wanting to lynch S&B midway through day 2. He kept screaming "I shot S&B and he survived". But he didn't claim the shot before S&B claimed that he (or his target, or my target...we literally have no idea) was hit. I wouldn't think it would be that big of a stretch to claim that you were the one that made that hit and since he survived you believe him to be a BP scum if you yourself were scum. S&B already had some momentum going, he just needed to add a little fuel to the fire, and when S&B flipped town, its not like he would have even been wrong about S&B surviving the shot, just on his conclusion. But for a little more clarification, a question for S&B: Does your role PM say anything about you specifically surviving shots yourself? Or only giving protection to your targets? | ||
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On October 06 2012 05:06 Drazerk wrote: I actually claimed the shot before S+B claimed sorry Kei check again No you didn't? On October 04 2012 01:52 strongandbig wrote: also i've thought about it and i think that saying this is a good idea right now: my night action was successful but i don't have complete control over who it targets. On October 05 2012 01:29 Drazerk wrote: No sb I shot you T_T I don't see you claiming the shot anywhere before that. | ||
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On October 06 2012 05:16 JingleHell wrote: IIRC he did mention a night action before then, but he also said it went through and that was all he was saying. Was ambiguous the first time. Wat. S&B was the one who claimed his ambiguous night action went through. Which is the post I quoted. It was 24 hours later before Drazak claimed that it was a shot on S&B. | ||
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On October 04 2012 01:52 strongandbig wrote: also i've thought about it and i think that saying this is a good idea right now: my night action was successful but i don't have complete control over who it targets. On October 04 2012 16:19 Drazerk wrote: S+B you should probably claim what happened to you last night that would probably help things. On October 05 2012 01:16 strongandbig wrote: + Show Spoiler + I'm town, not third party. Sorry that I've been busy. I've been basically trying to avoid being modkilled. I was at home on vacation and spending time with my family and friends. Now I'm back at work and adjusting to jetlag, so still not the best playing conditions, but hopefully a little better. I really do think that nisani is scum though. I'll roleclaim. I am ATLAS. I breadcrumbed this earlier when I /shrugged. My role is "reverse hider" - basically it's a bodyguard, I have extra lives and if my target gets shot I take the hit instead. Last night I took a scum hit that was aimed at someone else. I can do the same thing tonight. My role says that since P-BODY and I are "so in sync", whoever P-BODY targets with their ability I also target with my ability. I don't know what P-BODY's ability is, however, and I don't know if their ability also targets the person I target my ability at. So I know that last night I took a hit that was aimed at someone else. However, I don't know if it was aimed at the person I targeted, beacuse it could have been aimed at the person P-BODY targeted. I don't even know if P-BODY is town. I am working on the assumption that they are, however, since having my power target a scum target doesn't make much sense to me. It's possible though. I also am assuming that P-BODY is town because of flavor - ATLAS and P-BODY are test takers, and GLaDOS's flavor as well as mine indicate that the town is the people taking the tests, and the scum are the people making the tests. I'm unsure whether P-BODY should claim at this point. On the one hand, it would mean outing themselves - although they don't necessarily have to claim what their power is, and since everyone in this game probably has a power of some sort it wouldn't necessarily mean they're making themselves a scum blue-snipe target. But since I don't know P-BODY is town, he doesn't know if I'm town either. All he could confirm is if he knows that the ATLAS role exists, and if the thing I'm saying about targets is true if he also has that. If he is also town then he could also confirm my flavor speculation, about the test-makers being scum and the test-takers being town. If you believe that line of reasoning, then ATLAS and P-BODY have to be town if those roles exist, and therefore confirming that the roles exist would help people not lynch me. So for the moment, I think P-BODY should wait to see how people react to the roleclaim and only claim themselves if it looks like I'm still the main lynch target and they think claiming would help keep me from getting lynched. On October 05 2012 01:29 Drazerk wrote: No sb I shot you T_T | ||
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On October 06 2012 07:40 Drazerk wrote: He said that because he won't take in the possibility his team mate is an alternate alignment to him which is really common with bodyguard roles. I like to be judged on what happens in game not what I do from game to game. Give me some examples? And don't say Bastard. This isn't Bastard, nor is it hosted by the the same people who hosted Bastard. And you said that the hosts were lying to me via my role PM. I just went through the entire fucking list of Aperture 1 role PMs, and not a single one hinted at one thing but meant another. It was always specific, even down to House Chezinu where it said "Be careful, your brothers might not be trustworthy." Basically you are fearmongering for no reason other than to shit up the thread and discredit me and S&B. And nothing about that is pro-town. | ||
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On October 06 2012 08:07 gonzaw wrote: Keriathi, S&B, did you get hit/did something happen? I'm still waiting for HiroPro I don't get any notifications for my role. Since it doesn't really matter now, I am an anti-roleblocker. The person I target (and additionally, the person that ATLAS targets) is immune to roleblocks for the night. | ||
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##Vote: Drazerk I've already explained my reasoning. Nothing he has done this game has been pro-town, only pro-Drazerk. | ||
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On October 06 2012 08:14 Drazerk wrote: Stop caring about yourself and die for the good of the town Sure, if it means that you get lynched no questions asked tomorrow after I flip town. | ||
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On October 06 2012 08:22 Drazerk wrote: Yes I'm the jerk not the fact S+B + Kei basically teamed up against me very early on and everyone in the universe knows i'm an easy lynch and thats why I stay alive. Holy fucking misrepresentation, Batman. I said I thought you were town day 1. And I didn't "team up" against you until well into day 2 after you started pushing for the only person that I can be almost certain is townie, and then you pretended to throw a Lemon Grenade at me. | ||
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On October 06 2012 10:25 austinmcc wrote: They might not be same faction. But we won't know until/unless we flip BOTH of them. If we lynch snb and he's town, that doesn't tell us what keirathi is. If we flip keirathi and he's town, it doesn't tell us what snb is. Drazerk's whole worry is that they're not same alignment, yet he wants to flip one of them. Flipping one would be great if BOTH are scum. Flipping one is BAD if both are town AND doesn't tell us the alignment of the other. Flipping one is...mixed if one is scum and one is town, because if we flip town we don't know about scum and if we flip scum we probably flip the other guy and he's town? I dunno. That's one thing I'll think on. But the whole "let's flip one GOGOGOGO" routine doesn't feel townie. I already explained why I think there is a 0.01% chance that we are different factions. 1) Everything in my role PM suggests that we're on the same team. From being buddies, to being test takers (compared to GlaDOS being a test giver), to helping other solve tests, and that we were so in synch that we work together with our actions. 2) In Aperture 1, NONE of the role PMs that mentioned other players were that concrete but ended up being a lie. When the PMs told you who your buddies were, you knew who they were. The flip side of this was, when there was ambiguity in the faction of your parters (House Chezinu), it was specifically stated (something to the effect of "Be careful, the other members of House Chezinu aren't necessarily trustworthy!"). 3) We have both claimed our roles (he being a multi-life bodyguard, and me being an anti-roleblock). Those things just fit together so well, that I see very little chance of them being different alignments. Together we are powerful, but working towards different goals would make our combined power of targetting each others targets bad for each others win-con (ie, if he's scum and I'm town, what if I make him bodyguard the person he intends to kill with his factional KP?). 4) If only one of us is scum, why didn't he kill the other of us last night? Lets pretend S&B is a scum ATLAS. I just "confirmed" him as town with my claim, and the medic/watcher was just killed. Would I be protected at night? Probably not. So S&B has a free shot at me, and I flip town, making him look even better. So, no. I don't really think its possible at all at this point that we are different factions. | ||
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On October 06 2012 11:00 gonzaw wrote: @Keirathi: ORRRR.... maybe you guys can just read that post I made that has nothing to do with your role PMs. Your post made some logic leaps that I didn't agree with. 3)Once of them is from 1 scumteam and the other one is town: Again. If S&B is scum, same reasoning (why would he claim?). If he claimed I could see town Keirathi claiming though. If Keirathi is scum....again why claim? Let S&B get lynched. I don't think his claim would have made less sense if he was scum. He felt enough pressure that he claimed. That doesn't change whether you are town or scum. IF S&B was red scum, didn't know there was a black team, and none of his teammates were P-Body, then I think his first assumption would be "Okay, P-Body is town". And with a town P-Body to back up his claim, he gets pressure off of him and some town cred. Then he could kill me at night and have a confirmed green flip that gives 100% merit to his claim. Again, I don't find that at all likely, but that's what I didn't use your explanation. | ||
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I think I'm just going to ignore any posts where you talk to/about each other for the time being. I agree that Jingle had some good points about gonzaw, I don't agree that they make him more likely scum than Drazerk because I could hypothetically see a town gonzaw doing them. Nothing Drazerk has done gives me a green feeling besides his interactions with me early in day1 before he got on his soapbox about S&B. We should be voting Drazerk today. | ||
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On October 06 2012 12:45 gonzaw wrote: Keirathi, any thoughts on ghost? Your connection theory does make some sense. His arguments for ghost being town were all based on the fact that we were giving town cred (on his suggestion, I might add) to the people who voted for iamperfection (and, by association, the person that iamperfection voted for). And Crossfire's whole reasoning for voting iamperfection was in fact a chainsaw defense of ghost to begin with. The ironic thing here is that its possible that iamperfection inadvertently found scum based on one post when he was scum himself. But, connection theories like that can be fabricated by scum (or just misread/fished for by townies). In GSL, on the last day Bluelightz actually called me out as scum based on a connection theory between me and Dirkzor, who was town. So what has ghost actually done this game? Lets go through it chronologically since its pretty short 1) Hard tunnel me. (This is a recurring them, so I'm only going to list it once). Honestly I can't say that I think he's scum because of that. His reasonings felt terribad, but terribad logic isn't a strictly scummy trait. I've definitely had my fair share of it from time to time (hint: iamperfection). 2) Call Hiro town for being "too dumb to be scum" 3) Said something was off about austin's play this game and that he was going to read some of austin's previous games, but never followed up on it. So far, this is one of the scummiest things in his filter. He literally just doesnt mention him again. At all. Add to that the fact that this comment just "happened" to come at a time when austin was under some pressure, and I think you can clearly see why I interpret this as scummy. 4) Small pokes at Mementoss and JH 5) Wishy-washy read on Nisani, scumread on S&B 6) I'm really sorry I've been so busy, I fully intend to catch up tomorrow. Items on the agenda include: Try and understand what XFire has been spending so much time in thread defending me: I'm grateful, but I don't get it. Then: On my first read, I took XFire's posting to be buddying, which in retrospect, I don't think it was. It looks more just like he was trying to figure out exactly what was happening in thread. Since he wasn't buddying, now he's my buddy <3 Here's something that gives direct evidence toward them buddying. But would Crossfire+ghost scumteam really be THAT obvious about it? They would have had to have been SUPREMELY confident that neither would flip. 7) Another wishy-washy read about Nisani, then drops his vote on S&B and disappears until the deadline and the full night cycle. Okay, this is where the wishy-washiness gets to be scummy. Here it is, quoted for reference: On October 04 2012 23:26 ghost_403 wrote: I'm having trouble writing down my thoughts on Nisani at the moment. I need some more time to come back and analyze exactly why, and whether he's town or scum. In the meantime, I'm thinking that S+B might have rolled 3rd party. Last time I checked, 3rd party was anti-town, so I think I'm gonna ##vote strongandbig at least for the time being. It feels 100% like he's being non-committal to Nisani because he doesn't care if Nisani gets lynched instead. And don't forget, Nisani was leading the vote at the time and he still couldn't be arsed enough to give a real read. 8) Drops his vote on S&B in the same post, then disappears until the deadline, and the full night cycle. 9) Attempts to discredit gonzaw about his setup speculation Okay, so that's basically all of the meaningful interactions he's had this game. I think by far that 3 and 5/7 are the strongest points. + Show Spoiler + A conjecture I had that was purely speculation: I was thinking more about the Nisani thing before I posted this. Lets assume that ghost is black scum for a minute. So, what is he saying with his wishy-washy stance on Nisani and vote on S&B? I think he genuinely thinks S&B is on the other scum team, and that Nisani is town. Therefore, saving Nisani from the lynch and getting S&B lynched instead buys him town cred on two fronts. I'm sure you can see how that would be beneficial to him. Now, some supporting evidence for that theory. Ghost only started going after S&B after Drazerk started claiming that he shot S&B and that S&B survived and was fakeclaiming his roll. Which, conveniently, is about the same time he stopped mentioning me. And, since the day post, since he missed the night, he isn't mentioning me or S&B anymore, because he knows that since the black team has 2 members, the most likely scenario is that the red team only has 2 members as well. Therefore me+S&B having supporting roleclaims doesn't fit for being scum, and he dropped us. This honestly feels like he's trying to scumhunt. I'm just not sure if he's scumhunting for the black team, or for town. | ||
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On October 06 2012 14:47 gonzaw wrote: lol, I didn't actually expect you to make that much sense. . Ouch. | ||
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First, lets start with Xfire's filter: Well, there's basically nothing. The only thing even close to an opinion he gave on gonzaw for the entire game was this post: On October 04 2012 10:32 Crossfire99 wrote: Ok, so I don't know if my vision is getting clouded by my opinion on how he's playing, but I think Jingle is kinda playing like a dick. Well i think he's acting like a dick towards gonzaw. His other posts don't seem so bad. He's just constantly attacking gonzaw in a dickish way and his concerns seem to be more petty concerns when compared to the overall view of gonzaw (at least how I see gonzaw). This leads me to see gonzaw as more townie and jingle more scummy. Certainly not conclusive, but I see this as much more scumbuddy'ish than him calling ghost town 4-5 times during the game. He never questioned gonzaw, gave an opinion, or had any interaction whatsoever with gonzaw. Okay, now onto gonzaw's filter: On October 01 2012 23:44 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, okay people, what do you guys think about lynching one of these guys: JingleHell Mementos Nisani CrossFire austin iamperfection And if you'd switch to one of them, why would you do it? Like I said before I have that same "weird" feeling about them, but again it seems none of them other than Mementos decided to show up to contribute at all. On October 02 2012 08:45 gonzaw wrote: **snip** ghost and Nisani are likely scum I think, Mementos and Crossfire are there too. ghost/Nisani/Mementos/Crossfire/Drazerk I think all remaining scum are in there **snip** Crossfire: This guy HAS to be scum. He has done 0 contributions at all and spent 70% of his post "joking" with Drazerk about how he's "confused" about him. On October 02 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote: @Crossfire: You know, the fact that you forgot it's plurality lynch and not majority lynch actually makes you look worse, since you parked your vote on iamperfection and left. If you were scum maybe you thought there would be a NL so you thought iamperfection was safe before disappearing. Is this the case? I don't know. If you don't give more thorough reads and actively participate in discussion while giving your thoughts on things discussed and your thought process (<-most important one) I and the rest of town can't know for sure. + Show Spoiler + Note, the above quote was also the same post where he said "Town, you impress me". Jingle pointed that out in his case against gonzaw as being disassociated from town. Maybe a weak point, but a point none-the-less. Crossfire, I'd also like more contributions, specially who you think is scum/suspicious or at least who you have doubts on. Try to take some initiative. I'm getting better vibes out of Crossfire since his interactions with me and other townies seem genuine this N1, at least that's the guy feeling I get. For fucks sake when will Crossfire or ghost ever come here to do something? It kind of bums me out Hiro/austin/Crossfire/ghost/Keirathi/Jingle didn't do anything all D2 right up until the very end but I thought it wouldn't have mattered (once Nisani flipped red) If I have to change my town reads on Hiro/ghost/austin/Crossfire/Jingle then I may end up getting confused again. Being in this situation also makes me doubt the other players still (Mattchew, austin and Crossfire). On October 05 2012 13:14 gonzaw wrote: Hell, if I'm so "obvious" scum it should be easy as hell for you to make that case on me. If I'm scum I'm basically begging you to catch me, convince everybody I'm scum and get me lynched. So why aren't you taking that chance? Don't you want other guys like austin/Crossfire/etc who think I'm town to realize what a scummy monster I am? This is a big one I think. Because nowhere do I see that crossfire ever expressed huge sentiment that gonzaw was town. Just a minor comment in a chainsaw defense of gonzaw. Where the hell are ghost, Mattchew, Crossfire, ghost and Hiro? None of them posted at all since D2 ended (except Mattchew for that unrelated post he made). Crossfire and Mattchew are town, but that seems obvious (still had quite a time trying to figure out if they were fooling me or not). Specially because of their NL shenanigans on D2. If S&B is town that NL business makes no fucking sense as scum (why try to force a NL if you can lynch the medic by doing nothing, and you can also lynch another medic/vet by switching your vote?) Pre-Post edit: sorry for all the quotes. I kinda feel like I needed them all to make my point. So anyways, my point. Your day 1 stance was HAS TO BE SCUM. And he did nothing (that I can tell) to change your mind, you just never pushed him. Since then, you've constantly lumped him into your lists. Like, almost every single time you've made a list, his name as been there. Its a pretty weak heuristic, but scum DO love to add their scumbuddy to their lists. We've all seen it countless times. Also, You constantly called him out for more activity, but spent a lot of time not actually talking about it. And, add on to that that since the flip, you've been OBSESSED with Black Scum. Outside of Jingle, I don't think there's anything else you've talked about. How much it changes the game, speculating about team sizes, calling ghost Black Scum, etc etc. It's basically all you've talked about, and that feels really Black Scum'y. | ||
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Drazerk red team. His self preservation kicked into overdrive once iamperfection died. gonzaw black team, because of above post. (ghost as a possible, but I think less likely at this point, backup). good game. | ||
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Is it just me, or do both of these things sound like things that would be EXTREMELY weird for a townie to say? On October 06 2012 14:47 gonzaw wrote: If they were normal scum I'd say it's too obvious. It's still possible they counted on BS being hidden most of the game (like they were), specially after both of them were "almost confirmed town" because of interactions with iamperfection. But I think this is kind of stretching it and making leaps of logic. Hopefully that interaction doesn't mean much. On October 06 2012 15:44 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, as long as I'm not lynched today it doesn't worry me that much though. I'll have D4 to "defend myself" as black scum if it ever comes down to it. The first one sounds like he wants to still lynch ghost, even though he came tot he conclusion that the interactions don't make much sense from a scumteam perspective. The second sounds an awfully lot like someone with one of those non-standard KP roles that he's been so obsessed with (arsonist?). Maybe voting him over Drazerk today is a good idea. | ||
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On October 07 2012 00:15 austinmcc wrote: Okay ... so. Aperture 1 black team had cell leader, VE who targeted someone and inverted whatever actions were taken on them (alignments opposite, protects did KP, KP did protect, etc.), 1 shot janitor, and then nisani as inventor. No factional KP, no inherent KP roles, but VE could kill by chance and nisani could invent KP items and give them to teammates if he wanted. Also an anti-town role in janitor. Given the single NK each night and the lack of black kp in the full, black probably doesn't have factional KP. I'm down with that assumption. With the links between ghost and crossfire, I mainly want to see crossfire come in and provide some information. I'd like to see a roleclaim, and if we've got a rolecop, he's a good target tonight to confirm whatever he claims. So many of the black roles from aperture 1 were or could be seriously anti-town, so I want to know what we're dealing with before we just leave black scum for later. On numbers, I don't know exactly what to expect. Multi-faction games have more scum afaik, because scum can target each other, right? And we had a lot of protective roles. If there are 3 black scum, then I was thinking the third (if ghost is #2) would be hiropro or maybe mattchew. I know hiropro claimed he was going to busy up til the weekend, but he's sort of coasted by because of lynching iamperfection. (actually, scratch mattchew off that. looking back over mattchew, I think I was just picking up on posts that say "mattchew lazy" which makes me think of scum mattchew - + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 07:07 Mattchew wrote: i am actively lurking debating if i want to put in the effort for a post on people now or later On October 03 2012 15:42 Mattchew wrote: tomorrow i will come back with the wisdom of 1,000 cares and shits cause today i just didnt give any The links to Gonzaw feel tenuous compared to Crossfire <--> ghost, but maybe. I'll have to look at those a little more. Have you read like....any of the thread since the day post? This post feels so careless and not well thought out :o 1) Crossfire is dead. There's no way he's going to come in and provide information like a role claim. 2) Gonzaw made a good post about the scum numbers. I think its pretty damn unlikely that there are 3 Black Scum. Because, again, I don't think Black Scum has more people that Red Scum, so for Black SCum to have 3, Red Scum also has to have 3. Which gives 6 scum in a 13 player game. Yea, I don't really even see that as a possibility. 3) Do you really think two people going as far as to SAY THEY WERE BUDDYING EACH OTHER makes more sense as a scumteam than two people who just casually mentioned each other throughout the game? No dialog, no real interaction, just an occasional mention. I'll give you that I haven't played THAT many mafia games, but I've never seen two mafia teamates be that blatant about buddying. And it makes even less sense under the assumption that there are only 2 players on the team. I've played a 2 scum game (GSL 1), and I spent the entirety of the game trying to distance myself from my partner so that if one of us flipped, there wouldn't be things like that Crossfire<-->ghost stuff in my filter. I just don't see it being that big of a possibility. | ||
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Open his filter and ctrl+f Keir. He spent quite a lot of time giving me town reads too. And I never even mentioned him once. Basically my interactions with him are exactly the same as Ghost's, minus me making a comment about him buddying me. If you want to believe that there are 3 scum on each team, then I think you could certainly make the argument that me and S&B are part of his team if you think that his interactions with ghost were scummy. But since I know that I am town, then I don't find it that unlikely that Crossfire spent time buddying another person who wasn't in his faction. Especially controversial townies that he could say "I told you so" after we flipped if we ever got lynched. And here's the real kicker for me (yea, I already talked about this in my gonzaw post, but I think its a really, really strong connection): On October 05 2012 13:14 gonzaw wrote: Hell, if I'm so "obvious" scum it should be easy as hell for you to make that case on me. If I'm scum I'm basically begging you to catch me, convince everybody I'm scum and get me lynched. So why aren't you taking that chance? Don't you want other guys like austin/Crossfire/etc who think I'm town to realize what a scummy monster I am? Literally the only mention of gonzaw in Crossfire's entire filter is: On October 04 2012 10:32 Crossfire99 wrote: Ok, so I don't know if my vision is getting clouded by my opinion on how he's playing, but I think Jingle is kinda playing like a dick. Well i think he's acting like a dick towards gonzaw. His other posts don't seem so bad. He's just constantly attacking gonzaw in a dickish way and his concerns seem to be more petty concerns when compared to the overall view of gonzaw (at least how I see gonzaw). This leads me to see gonzaw as more townie and jingle more scummy. He's not saying that gonzaw is townie. He's just saying that, during the shitfit, that gonzaw seems townier than Jingle. So where did gonzaw get so much confidence in Crossfire's read of him? Because, after that, the only other post that Crossfire made before he died said: On October 06 2012 08:00 Crossfire99 wrote: Ok, I'm gonna post my reads that I have right now. I am sticking with my same townie view of Mattchew, hiro, and ghost due to the day 1 votes. I believe the strong and keirathi claims, so I see them as town right now. **SNIP** After him, I think either jingle or gonzaw need to die. I was leaning towards jingle earlier, but now some people have brought up suspicions on gonzaw and now I'm not sure of my earlier reads on either of them. I will need to some serious reading tomorrow to figure it if we want to lynch one of them. Anyway, we should lynch drazerk tomorrow. Something about that just feels extremely off. | ||
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On October 07 2012 08:44 Drazerk wrote: 3 teams of 4 That makes the most sense to me right now. Rofl. Care to lay out your teams, then? | ||
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On October 07 2012 09:33 gonzaw wrote: I know what you are implying....that you are an Aperture Science executive. That flavour doesn't really make it any better, considering the robot that guy created just flipped scum. Since you apparently found what he's talking about, care to share? I'm loathe to wade through the cess pool that is his filter. | ||
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Also any reads at all? You haven't given an opinion on anything except calling gonzaw's one post terrible, but even that you didn't call him scum. | ||
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On October 07 2012 09:58 Drazerk wrote: Sure Kei and then you lose because S+B was scum If S&B is scum at this point, I'll fucking eat my hat. And post pictures of it. | ||
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On October 07 2012 10:48 Keirathi wrote: If S&B is scum at this point, I'll fucking eat my hat. And post pictures of it. EBWOP: More to the point, I'll rage at GreyMist for lying in my role PM, *THEN* I'll eat my hat. | ||
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That plan literally makes 0 sense whatsoever. IF he is scum (god, how many times do I have to give reasons that he's not? maybe I should just get flipped...), then of course he's going to tell you he's targetting X, while in reality he's shooting Y. The chance of overlap is pretty small, especially considering we've only been having 1 KP each night. Your chance of catching him as scum with that plan is remarkably tiny. And, assuming he's town (because he is town), what if there *IS* overlap and 2 KP go through to the person he targetted and therefor dies? You just "confirmed" scum on a townie (ironically at the same % chance of having caught him as scum if he is scum). | ||
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On October 07 2012 11:17 gonzaw wrote: If he's scum, he says he's targeting X but shoots Y, and the other scum shoots X....he's fucked. I'm saying there's a pretty small chance that he would say he was protecting an X that is going to be killed by the other scum team. On October 07 2012 11:17 gonzaw wrote: If there is overlap and 2 KP go through and he dies...he flips town...so what's the problem? Wait, does S&B die? If so, I guess that makes sense. I was just thinking "Herp Derp I'm a 1KP medic and I just got lynched because scum double stacked KP on the target I called out and 'confirmed' me as lying." | ||
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First, we don't know for sure that S&B's role even protects himself if he is the target of a shot. I know I didn't target S&B night 1, so he didn't protect himself via our combined powers. So does he only protect the person he's targeting (and I'm targeting, by association), or does he protect himself, his target, and my target? That seems a little...OP, but I guess possible. We could use some clarification from him, if he has any. Second, if we assume that S&B's protection applies to direct shots on himself as well, your conjecture still doesn't prove that Drazerk shot S&B, only that Drazerk shot either S&B, S&B's target, or my target. Not that there is a huge difference in those two things, but when you add in the fact that there was a jail from mementoss and an actual medic protect from nisani on night 1 as well that we don't know anything about, it totally changes all the possibilities, IMO. + Show Spoiler + Now onto wild conjecture that means absolutely nothing and no one should even pay any attention to: What about this version of events from night 1? Drazerk shot S&B. A bus driver (I still maintain there is one; "Portal Edition" just screams bus driver to me) switched Mementoss and S&B, presumably to get S&B killed rather than Mementoss who they thought was town. So Drazerk killed Mementoss via the bus, and someone else shot one of mine or S&B's targets (to trigger the hit notification). Then Drazerk gets his panties all in a bunch about S&B living when it had absolutely nothing to do with S&B being scum. Obviously has no bearing whatsoever on Drazerk's alignment, because it could play out the same either way. | ||
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We've had a godfather/JOAT, medicwatcher, a (arguably powerful and weak at the same time) conditional 5-shot day vig, and a dual-target bodyguard+roleblockimmunity pair. Vig-DT would make more sense, consistency wise, than plain 'ol 1-shot vig just based on the roles we know. But there are a lot of roles that we don't know, and trying to guess what the host gave all 13 players is an extreme exercise in futility. Also, it strikes me as odd that Drazerk is sticking to his Cave Johnson "claim", whenever the Lemon Grenade didn't even work. | ||
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Add in the fact that, taken together, mine+S&B's roles make us virtually invincible at night if we just target each other until all of his unknown amount of BP vests are gone. If Drazerk is scum, and worried about S&B continually hounding him all game, it could make some sense to push S&B as hard as possible and try to get him lynched over Nisani. *Note: I am not saying this is in fact how it happened. Just reasonable plausibility for why scum Drazerk could have wanted to make sure S&B was lynched over Nisani. | ||
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On October 07 2012 14:10 austinmcc wrote: keirathi apparently controls snb's target, no matter who snb tries to target? Just for clarification: I don't control S&B's target at all. Here's what happens: S&B Targets X. I target Y Because S&B targetted X, I also target X. Because I targeted Y, S&B also targets Y. Therefore, S&B targets X and Y I also target X and Y. | ||
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##unvote You're right, some of the things just feel like something weird for scum to do. I've had an extreme, extreme case of confirmation bias, trying to make up scummy explanations for everything he's done. And I certainly believe they are all possible. But, I should take my own advice: most often, the easiest answer is the correct one. That said, my next highest read is you, gonzaw. But for now I think i'm going to try to sleep and clear my head, and maybe read through with a fresh perspective tomorrow. Maybe even take some of my old-fashioned unbiased notes. | ||
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I'm not really sure what that should lead me to think though. | ||
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I haven't reread Can't Believe, but iirc most of the cases against you were more of the variety that you weren't reading the thread, and therefore had a bunch of dumb questions and analyses that just didn't make sense. | ||
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On October 07 2012 15:37 gonzaw wrote: If I was scum, you know I'd just post shit all this day and let town bandwagon on Drazerk (whatever alignment he is). At the very least if I thought Draz was the other scum and I wanted to save him I would have put another lynch candidate on the table by now (and you guys know I'm not "scared" of doing shit like that as scum) instead of mumbling all over the place. Just so you know, I don't buy this defense. You're either town or scum by your merits this game, not what you "would" do. I can give you multiple examples of scum pushing bandwagons off of townies to buy some town cred. And it would make even more sense in this game, because scum, IMO, should be in panic mode. There are 2 scum dead, and only 2 townies taken out along the way. | ||
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On October 07 2012 15:59 gonzaw wrote: ^^ Okay, don't buy it then and ignore it (you may be right about that though. I don't think I would personally try to take a bandwagon off a townie and looking scummy in the process...but I guess there are other players out there that would). I'd like you to read my previous games though. Marv stopped a day1 bandwagon in...Normal Mini 3? I think...on Bluelightz, and lived the entire game. Anyways, I said like an hour ago that I was going to sleep, yet I still sit here hitting f5. Damn you. I really am going to sleep now. I'll do as much in depth digging that I can tomorrow before the deadline. | ||
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Austin was killed night 1 in Can't Believe. Sciberbia (his mason buddy) was the one who went so hard against talismania on day 2. | ||
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On October 07 2012 16:08 gonzaw wrote: marv was killed on N1, austin on N2 I remember both of them leading the lynch on talis. Although that implication does mean austin lead the lynch as well. Also aha! You won't get any sleep today >:D Oh, you're right. I just remembered sciberbia making the huge case on talis (and then, Matt following it up), and then sciberbia refusing to claim after austin died even though it was pretty apparent he was the other Mason. Anyways, carry on. | ||
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On October 08 2012 02:29 Drazerk wrote: Me flipping town however does confirm Gonzaw is scum so win is a win No it doesn't. Quit being dense. It adds circumstantial evidence. | ||
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I've been reading his filters from Can't Believe (town) and Liar Game (scum). His filter this game feels much more like Can't Believe than Liar game. From all the town reads, to the weird setup speculation...it just feels more like Can't Believe. I still think his play this game could make sense as Black Scum, since they would have wanted to remain hidden and be townie-like, but he's moved way down my list of possible Red Scum. | ||
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On October 08 2012 03:57 Drazerk wrote: You all have to put on your surprised faces or its Drazerk hes a fucking dick posts. Maybe someone will go a bit overboard on the post and someone will call it out. For the love of god I hope someone looks at S+B / Kei when you see just how OP my one shot actually was and how it going missing is really bizarre. Still Gonzaw / Hiro will probably go on the chopping boards which prolongs the two people you really need to kill before Lylo. Future speculation is fun Did you take into account that maybe, just MAYBE that there is a bus driver who switched Mementoss and S&B and therefore your shot actually killed Mementoss? I dont know that there is a bus driver. But I think its quite possible because 1) there was one in Aperture 1 and 2) Portal Edition just screams bus driver/position swap mechanics. Certainly not conclusive, but if there is a bus driver, the S&B and Mementoss swap certainly makes sense. | ||
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Hmm. | ||
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It just means something happened that you don't know about. | ||
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On October 08 2012 04:19 gonzaw wrote: My bad (I don't remember who you targeted). Drazerk, is it possible some scum targeted you with some ability that "weakened" your shot or did something? I never said who I targetted, just that I didn't target S&B. | ||
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On October 08 2012 04:23 austinmcc wrote: Wait, hold on. Your shot doesn't go through medic protects? Then how did snb get shot and take damage if he was medic protected? S&B protects two targets every night. 3 if he actually inherently protects himself too, but i'm not actually sure about that. | ||
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On October 08 2012 04:26 austinmcc wrote: I was lumping bodyguard in with veteran abilities though, i.e. you have an extra life with which to take shots. I guess we don't know that, but if bodyguard is considered a veteran ability, then it wouldn't have saved snb. Are you even reading what you're typing? Drazerk is saying that he things S&B was medic protected, and thats why he didnt die. Therefor, if S&B was medic protected, then S&B still protected 2 OTHER people. If either of those 2 people got shot, then S&B would have received a hit notification. | ||
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That seems like a weird interaction. I'll try to go find some games that have a bodyguard role, but that's not the way I expect bodyguard to work. That would basically mean that the medic was protecting 3 people night 1. Let me explain how I expect bodyguard to work with a hypothetical, before I go digging: VisceraEyes is 1-shot Bodyguard that dies if he successfully protects a KP (IE something useful for protecting a Mayor or Innocent Child, etc). marv is a medic. Ace is an innocent child. VE protects Ace on night 1. marv protects VE. Scum shoots Ace. I would expect VE to die, because he died from his own role, rather than from KP. | ||
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On October 08 2012 04:42 gonzaw wrote: Something weird happened on N1, and I can vouch for that (again, regarding my role). If I told you guys what happened to me you would say "I don't see a scenario that explains what gonzaw is saying, therefore he's lying" as well. Maybe I'm inclined to believe Draz because of that. If you have some information, maybe it would be better to just claim it and let other people try to make sense of it. Remember, if I believe you, I can give you KP protection and RB immunity. | ||
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I targeted you night 1. | ||
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IE: VisceraEyes is 1-shot Bodyguard that dies if he successfully protects a KP (IE something useful for protecting a Mayor or Innocent Child, etc). marv is a medic. Ace is an innocent child. VE protects Ace on night 1. marv protects VE. Scum shoots Ace. I would expect VE to die, because he died from his own role, rather than from KP. In that hypothetical scenario, would VE have died, or been saved by the medic? Maybe that will clear things up. | ||
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His role has changed 3 times since he first claimed. First, he was one-shot vig. Then he was 1-shot vig that threw Lemon Grenades (which we know was a lie), and now he's one-shot vig with an unblockable shot. And here's why I think that his unblockable shot theory doesn't make sense: even if we up and lost our minds right now and decided that we should lynch S&B today. What happens when S&B flips town? Does that necessarily make Drazerk scum? No, and he knows that, and I believe he could argue it. There are so many possible things that could have happened that we have no way of knowing what actually happened. | ||
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I think there are too many things that he has done that just don't make sense. Call it "protecting S&B" if you want. If Draz does somehow flip town, and town decides that either me or S&B needs to be lynched tomorrow, then so be it. But I'm going with my gut that I don't think S&B is going to flip town. | ||
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On October 08 2012 05:51 Keirathi wrote: ##vote: Drazerk I think there are too many things that he has done that just don't make sense. Call it "protecting S&B" if you want. If Draz does somehow flip town, and town decides that either me or S&B needs to be lynched tomorrow, then so be it. But I'm going with my gut that I don't think S&B is going to flip town. I mean, I don't think Draz is going to flip town. | ||
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I'm happy (or at least content) with my vote. I'm still readong, so if someone comes up with something brilliant, I'll respond, but otherwise I'm watching football. | ||
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On October 08 2012 07:11 Drazerk wrote: Also bonus points if you can tell me what all of those gifs have in common They're animated. I WIN! | ||
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And I cant. I literally just have nothing. The only person, aside from S&B, that I would even give any sort of town read to right now is HiroPro. My brain feels like its fried, and I'm pretty damn frustrated. I've come to the conclusion that I am just a terrible player when it comes to playing town. | ||
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On October 08 2012 13:08 gonzaw wrote: I'll admit not everything you say is "bad", but most of it, or at least what I notice whenever I see your posts is. If it's the stuff about iamperfection, or being "wishy-washy" on D1, or "blue-fishing", yes they are not "completely stupid points", but I explained myself on them. I just want to say that just because you come up with an explanation for something doesn't mean that people are going to suddenly start thinking its not scummy, Anyone can rationalize an explanation for something after-the-fact. If that was all it took to get people not to vote you, then very few scum would ever get lynched. | ||
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Second: Fine, I'll make a list, since that seems to be what you want. Hiro & S&B: Town. Gonzaw: My top candidate for BS atm based on interactions with Crossfire. Point about the iamp unvote could be possible red scum motivated, but some other things fit better from a BS perspective (all the town reads, being obsessed with BS once crossfire flipped, etc) of wanting to stay hidden and keep yourself alive. austin: Could be either. The key thing that gives me a weird feeling from him is the way that he hasn't really been the leading factor in any of the lynches. He hasn't really committed to any reads or pushes until other people start pushing them (me day 1, nisani day 2, and even Drazerk/you on day3). Specifically on day3, he just kept pushing evidence for both cases without ever saying which one he thought was more likely to be scum until I specifically asked him. ghost: possibly either, with some (possibly too obvious) connections with Crossfire. Could be red because of trying to start a late bandwagon on me day 1, could be black because of the connections. Mattchew: Someone made the comment about town Mattchew would actively be scumhunting, while scum Mattchew would either bus his teamates or lurk (both of which he did in Can't Believe). However, I'm not sure I can believe that scum Matt would lead the bus on godfather/JOAT day 1. MAYBE RS. BS is another story, because he could play exactly like he's town and actively scumhunt, and lynching RS day 1 under his leadership certainly gave him room to stand back and stop contributing. Also fits with him making a case and pushing S&B on day 2. In order of his chances: BS > town > RS Jingle: I honestly have no fucking clue. | ||
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He made a big wall of text post to basically say "Hiro and Jingle have been worthless this game therefore they are BS. Matt can't be BS because I've already filled BS up, so hes town. Therefore gonzaw and Jingle are red". That you keep referring to that as something substantial is boggling to my mind. | ||
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Anyways, I think that we should be lynching austin tomorrow. He hasn't had a single "unique" read or push. Every single thing that he's done this game has been piggybacking off of someone else's arguments and adding fuel to them. Just look through his filter. Not a single time has he been a leading factor in a push, just comes in after-the-fact with more evidence to push it along. | ||
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On October 09 2012 02:51 Keirathi wrote: Also, I just want to note that trying to figure out entire scumteams is an exercise in futility. One scum at a time please. Anyways, I think that we should be lynching austin tomorrow. He hasn't had a single "unique" read or push. Every single thing that he's done this game has been piggybacking off of someone else's arguments and adding fuel to them. Just look through his filter. Not a single time has he been a leading factor in a push, just comes in after-the-fact with more evidence to push it along. EBWOP: And the only major bandwagon that he didn't try to jump on or push more evidence for was....*GASP* iamperfection. | ||
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Of you are town, literally the best thing you could do right now is make yourself a juicy enough target that you get nk'd. Basically everyone is suspicious of you, and if you are town, then your mislynch probably loses the game for town. | ||
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Not really that surprising though. I assume you took a hit, S&B? | ||
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On October 09 2012 08:44 gonzaw wrote: ...was that directed at me? One: I couldn't think of any other way to give you guys info (in case I die) without claiming (if I claimed scum would know what to do in response to that). Second: Yeah, scum killing me might be good so all these guys stop going against me. I'll scumhunt until I stop breathing though, and I hope smart/sensible people analyze my play accordingly so my misslynch won't happen (not to completely absolve myself from responsibility if that happens though) Yes, I was saying you should have claimed your Name + Power (maybe not who you were targetting, since apparently you had a "plan"). And, even if you had a plan, that still doesn't explain why you didn't claim, because at the very least your actions would have been basically guaranteed to go through (unless someone bus driver switched you with someone who got roleblocked, I guess). | ||
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Until someone gives me a good reason not to: ##Vote: austinmcc I believe he is the most likely candidate for red scum. | ||
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On October 09 2012 09:45 austinmcc wrote: Keirathi, Early on you defended yourself from me by saying:In part, you're suspicious of me I guess for not pushing you HARDER D1? But when I was on your case earlier in the game, not doing much to push a new target was part of your defense. Why does not pushing a non-iamperfection target hard make you town, but not pushing a non-iamperfection target hard make me scum? Good question. I think the reason I am more wary of you is because you were actively campaigning against people (me, JH, me again), but never drummed up a lot of support. That you were non-committal towards iamperfection makes it more suspicious. You've basically, to use a poker term, "limped in" to every bandwagon in the game so far without really seeming to care who actually gets lynched. It feels like the only time you've actively tried to lead votes away from something or onto your particular read was me on day 1. | ||
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On October 09 2012 11:09 Mattchew wrote: n3 i bussed hiro and keirathi trying to get hiro shot cause i think he's scum I protected Hiro because I believe that he is town. Therefore, I protected myself! | ||
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On October 09 2012 11:09 Mattchew wrote: oh ok.. anyway i am the bus driver. n1 i bussed draz and ghost cause I thought ghost might be shot for the amount iamperf went at him and wanted draz dead n2 i bussed gonzaw and keirathi trying to get gonzaw shot cause I thought theres a chance of him being scum n3 i bussed hiro and keirathi trying to get hiro shot cause i think he's scum Anyways, assuming that Matt isn't lying, then he isn't the one who changed ghost/Hiro's positions in the player list, since I've never moved. | ||
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On October 09 2012 12:43 gonzaw wrote: I always envy those scum guys that have such an imagination to claim the stuff they do. I don't know how they do it I never fake-claimed blue in my scum life...meh it's just not my thing. I fake claimed being roleblocked in my only scum game. But I also shot down prplhz's incessant desire to claim Cop because it really is a super hard thing to pull off. However, as someone else pointed out to me on day 2 when I started defending S&B before I claimed, its canon for scum in super-themed games like this to be given fake claims. | ||
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The only PM's that I've gotten from the hosts were my role PM and answers to questions. | ||
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On October 09 2012 15:04 gonzaw wrote: Does someone know why the hell my N1 report was fucked up or is it just some thing scum did? It makes me wonder if there actually WAS a Lightning Rod. Lol. | ||
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On October 10 2012 00:55 strongandbig wrote: if mattchew got shot why didnt he die last night? It is possible that he is in the Rat's Nest. But that's pretty damn unverifiable with the roles that we have. | ||
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But, no one has claimed to be RB'd this game. Maybe there aren't even RB notifications? | ||
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So what does it explain? :o | ||
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Anyways, here's the revelation: Austin CAN'T a traditional KP role UNLESS I am currently in the Rat's Next OR there is another protective role who protected me last night, and doesn't get hit notification. Why's that? you might ask. So, lets look at what's been claimed: 1) I protected Hiro 2) Matt bussed me and Hiro 3) gonzaw tracked austin to Hiro So, what does that mean. Well first, Matt bussing me and Hiro after I protected Hiro means that Hiro no longer had S&B's bodyguard protection. Therefore, if Hiro didn't die from austin visiting him, it either means that I was in the Rat's Nest, another medic role protected me, or austin wasn't delivering KP. Edit1: Bleh, I keep having post-note revelations that mean I need to come back and add something (IE, original draft didn't have the possibility of another medic to protect me, but I guess theoretically it is possible). Anyways, next thing I wanted to add: it's also possible that Hiro is some kind of night-immune role, and austin did actually shoot Hiro and Hiro just survived. Not sure how likely that is, but again its a possibility that I didn't think of when I first had my revelation. Honestly at this point I'm debating on whether I should even post this because there are so many conditionals to it being a correct postulation. Also, if it wasn't clear, I came to this conclusion last night but I decided to wait until today to post it. | ||
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On October 10 2012 01:42 gonzaw wrote: IAMP was dead D1, he couldn't have used that ability (and I suppose that's the only ability like that in the game) I also thought it was possible Nisani was actually driven with Mementos/Mattchew, so he actually protected Mementos and got nobody visited him, which is why I tracked him to Mementos... ...then again the only bus driver seems to be Matt that didn't claim that, plus if Nisani protected Mementos he wouldn't have been killed and he would have seen scum visiting Mem....so no that doesn't make sense either Just to clarify (because I was confused too, and starting to think you were lying), Nisani didn't actually get watcher information until the NEXT night. So if he watched Matt on night 1, he would get information on who visited Matt during day2 and (presumably?) night 2. So the fact that he had no information doesn't mean that Matt wasn't targeted night 1, because Nisani wouldn't have had that information. | ||
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On October 10 2012 01:42 JingleHell wrote: Well, since this seems to be happening, I'm Rick, The Adventure Core! I can go visit the person directly below me on the list at night, doing nothing, but avoiding KP directed at me. That's why I've been pushy and hostile (and it looks like I've been vindicated about Gonzaw having an anti-town wincon, so I wasn't so far off with the primary target of that path). I was hoping to make scum try to hit me and waste their KP. That's also why I waited so long to claim, I wanted to be very sure it was happening en masse before giving that one up. And no, my role doesn't make the other person get hit, it just gets me out of harms way. I've received no notifications of failed hits on me, but I don't know if I would since I'm actively avoiding the KP, rather than having it hit me and fail. So...you're a permanent Bulletproof Townie, as long as there is someone below you in the player list? :o | ||
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##unvote ##Vote: Mattchew | ||
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##Unvote Unless Hiro or ghost claims Chell, then Matt probably isn't lying. Unless gonzaw and Matt are both scum on the same team and came up with the traitor theory to give credence to Matt claiming Chell....but they would have had to know that there is no Chell (which makes more sense than it normally would if they were given fake claims). | ||
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On October 10 2012 04:11 Keirathi wrote: Something worth(?) noting: S&B's specific role description was anti-hider, I believe? With JH being a hider, its certainly some circumstantial evidence to think about. And, my specific role description was anti-roleblocker. Which fits with GlaDOS being the Godfather Roleblocking Jack of All Trades. | ||
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On October 10 2012 04:42 austinmcc wrote: Oh ghoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooost. Would you like to claim? If everyone is being truthful, you used something on HiroPro N2. And HiroPro redirected to Gonzaw N2, so barring funny business, your action should have actually ... taken place on Gonzaw? HiroPro/Gonzaw, do either of you know how the tracking would come out in that situation? What if there were multiple actions that targetting Hiro night2? Hiro's role description makes it sound like it would randomly pick if there were multiples, and one of them would be redirected while the rest would land. And, we don't know who you, ghost, or S&B targetted. | ||
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me = gonzaw night1, S&B night2, Hiro night3 | ||
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On October 04 2012 04:54 ghost_403 wrote: \o\ Pictured above: ghost_403 running around with his hair on fire, which is incidentally what he's been doing for the last two days. Should be around later tonight to actually play some mafia. brb Now, from iamperfection's role PM: "(3) Light Bridge: You place a light bridge in the test chamber, giving the illusion that the test will be easier to solve. The subject will not be told they were roleblocked this night." And now, here's where it gets interesting: ghost seems to be claiming that he was roleblocked night 1? But, obviously he couldn't have been roleblocked by GlaDOS because GlaDOS was dead. And lightbridge wouldn't have given him a roleblock notification anyways. Maybe ghost is claiming that he's in the Rat's Nest, though? | ||
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It almost feels like it had to have been serving some specific purpose. There are 3 things he said that seem weird and don't fit with basically any of the rest of his comments: 1) Hair on Fire 2) 8s look like 3s when you're hungry 3) Now to the kitchen! Like, they all feel like breadcrumbs to me, but what is he crumbing? | ||
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On October 10 2012 10:55 gonzaw wrote: Anyways why do you guys even bother breadcrumbing your role? Just don't breadcrumb anything and claim you are an anti-town traitor. You'll be instantly considered confirmed town.... ...although seriously I didn't think everybody would believe my claim >_> I guess I didn't really got my hopes up with you guys :/ I haven't breadcrumbed my role at all Also, I'm not entirely convinced by your claim. Some key things stick out to me: how much you talked about how hard it would be for you to fake claim as scum, and the way you kept putting your claim of (okay i'm going to claim, wait no i'm not, well maybe i'll claim later, but i have a plan now, etcetc). I will say that your claim, if fake, took an extreme amount of effort, which makes it pretty unlikely, but I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Especially if you+matt are somehow a scum-team and coordinated the Chell/Traitor thing. | ||
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Honestly, my head keeps telling me that we should lynch JH today. It can't be a coincidence that he claimed Hider, and S&B's role specifically calls him an Anti-Hider when my calls me an Anti-Roleblocker. | ||
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On October 10 2012 11:10 gonzaw wrote: Also: What do you guys think about that Jingle speculation? That you're completely reaching and it has 0 basis in fact. Just randomly throwing out a theory with 0 evidence to back it up. What I mean is, nothing in your explanation explained why the framer would be JingleHell. His name was just tacked on there. | ||
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If there is this framer than can frame himself to show up as visiting a specific target (ie, JH visiting austin), what stops Hiro or me, or you from being that framer? Lets play devil's advocate and say Hiro says that he is going to use his role on ghost. So you track Hiro, and he does in fact visit ghost. Now, why can't he be the framer? Why does it have to be Jingle? That's the point I'm trying to make. | ||
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On October 10 2012 12:51 gonzaw wrote: This game would have been boring (to me) and pretty shitty if I hadn't claimed and everybody bandwagoned against me today and unanimously got me lynched and then town lost. Also with S&B/Matt/ghost/Jingle/Hiro barely active most of the time this game has been me+you+austin arguing ever since D3 basically. Unless you had fun doing that I intended only me to claim, but meh I guess my checks forced other guys to claim as well. I would rather be wrong in my reads and learn from it than be wrong from trying to piece together information that we'll never be able to verify, because someone is always going to be hiding something. | ||
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I read your reasoning austin, but I just don't find it sufficient. He kept talking about gonzaw and Matt for hours and hours, then he made a case that I mostly agreed with (because I thought iamperfection was town), although I didn't think it was enough to vote Matt, just keep an eye on him. After iamp flipped scum, no one ever even really looked at jingle again. 1) Has absolutely no opinion on iamp day 1 2) Builds cases on gonzaw and Matt, while making excuses about not being "pushy super agressive" to explain away why is wasn't pushing them so hard. 3) Has literally done nothing substantial besides tunnel gonzaw all game 4) Really "safe" claim 5) Claims hider, while S&B's role is Reverse Hider. Roleblocker flips day1, and my role is Roleblocker Roleblocker. Too much coincidence. I can't really get behind any of those other cases. Its all based too much on things that we don't know who is lying about (and we know we have at *LEAST* 2 people who aren't being completely honest with their information). And I still trust S&B because I literally have no reason to distrust my Role PM. ##unvote ##Vote: JingleHell | ||
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On October 11 2012 04:08 strongandbig wrote: my role doesn't counteract hiders, so i don't really agree with your last point. I'm not saying you counteract hiders, but....I dunno, its just too specific. Why even call it a "Reverse Hider" instead of just a Bodyguard? I mean, my full role name is "P-Body, the Roleblocker Roleblocker", but I don't actually RB anyone. | ||
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On October 10 2012 11:09 Keirathi wrote: I...don't think I want to lynch ghost today. Not saying why until he claims though, since I don't want to tell him what I'm thinking so that he knows what to say. But I do have an idea of what his role is (and honestly, I'm curious if I'm right). So I just remembered I said this. When I posted that, I had gotten it into my head that ghost was a DT. Why? Well, first, there weren't any other non-conditional DT roles in the game. And yea, there are things that keep DTs from getting legit checks, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't an actual DT. Secondly, look at his play throughout the game. I actually thought that he had checked me n2 and thats why he completely dropped me from his vocabulary come day 3, but even still he has wild swings about who he thinks is scum. And look as his rationale for believing the Draz claim: "I buy Draz's claim for the time being. He's nuts, for sure, but his claim makes sense in a Draz-ish sort of way." That's an awfully small amount of reason to barely mention the person that was leading the leading vote getting. But, he spent all of his (very minimal amount of) time pushing gonzaw. I'm not sure if there would be a Black DT though, and I'm almost certain that he's not RS. I mean, it could make sense, for sure, for Black to have a DT to try to find RS. But...I dunno, it just feels like a more town-oriented role than things like Hider and Redirector. | ||
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Of all the things he said in his claim post, the wincon stuff was the least verifiable and easiest to lie about. I'm not saying I'm sure that he's lying about it, but that the thought just now crossed your mind is :o | ||
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On October 11 2012 06:03 ghost_403 wrote: Sorry, I don't have time to respond to everything. My action last night was on HiroPro (bolded for emphasis), not on Keirathi, which is why I'm assuming that Hiro's bus didn't go through. Or HiroPro is lying. All I know is this: my DT check reads "Keirathi is town", not "your check came back town". Matt bussed Hiro and Me. You claim your role only allows you to check the first alive player below you in the player list, therefore me. If you sent in ##Check: HiroPro, then you were lying about your role earlier. | ||
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On October 11 2012 06:18 ghost_403 wrote: Wait, I used my action night 2. I figured it out, neither of us are lying. I swapped with HiroPro Night 2 and checked drazerk. Since he got lynched, my check falls to the next person on the list, Keirathi. I didn't action Night 3. Wat. So you don't get results from your check until after the next day cycle? | ||
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That could make sense. | ||
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Pretty sure ghost is winning, which is unfortunate. We should be voting Jingle. | ||
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I don't think Crossfire and ghost went that far out of their way to buddy each other. And I don't think that scum iamperfection "bussed" ghost that hard on day 1. I also think DT is probably town. | ||
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On October 11 2012 07:46 Hassybaby wrote: DAMMIT! Ebwop You're the host, you can edit | ||
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I know its not me or S&B. I don't believe gonzaw would be RS with a wincon that makes him want GlaDOS dead (and while I think he may have been lying about his wincon, I don't think the was making up the GlaDOS+Chell thing). I believe that Matt is Chell (unless he and gonzaw made up some elaborate plan and were given Chell and Wheatley as fakeclaims?). I don't think ghost is RS, because of iamperfection thing and I kind of believe that he's DT *AND* I don't think RS has a need to have a position swap mechanic. Hiro *COULD* be red scum if he bussed day 1. That's a big if though, especially assuming a 2 person scum team. So really, its down to austin or jingle. Both of which would make a ton of sense, but austin has been trying harder? And there are some extremely circumstantial things that make me lean towards Jingle. | ||
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But, kill RS first. If we kill RS and its not end-game, then we worry about it. | ||
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He didn't really mention Draz much though. | ||
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Never mind, carry on. | ||
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I mean, assuming you are telling the truth about YOUR night 2 actions when you tracked ghost, he only visited Hiro, not Hiro and Drazerk. And the role description says he "analyzes the data" to find their alignment, which is different from other role PMs that say "Each night you may target XXX and do YYY". | ||
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If he said "I got a check on Keirathi. I don't know what happened with the bus, because Matt said he bussed Keir and Hiro, but my result specifically says I got a check on Keir", do you think people wouldn't have lynched Matt instead? I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're really reaching for something to confirm Matt. | ||
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On October 11 2012 09:46 strongandbig wrote: You mean you're going to point me at Matt? Let me think for a minute Yea, that's what I meant. | ||
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I recommend that you protect gonzaw, so that his track goes through and we at least have some kind of information. If he's not town tracker, then our only town information role was a watcher and a super conditional uncontrollable Role Cop. | ||
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I'm also considering lynching you. And austin and Hiro. | ||
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<3 | ||
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On October 10 2012 00:12 austinmcc wrote: Also, and maybe this explains a little of my D1, as a ssheep, I'm not know for being a leader. Therefore, if I ever cast the first vote of the day on a player, I may or may not blink out of existence, due to the "Von Heisenstein SSheep/NoSSheep Paradox Effect." I'm really not sure why I didn't push that harder. It triggered by Bullshit-o-meter super hard, but I just let it fly after one comment E: I'm just terrible as town, sadly | ||
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On October 12 2012 10:23 Mattchew wrote: why did WE LYNCH THE COMPANION CUBE. THATS LIKE THE TOWNIEST ROLE EVER AND NO ONE COUNTER CLAIMED AHHHHHHHHHHHHH Because you wanted to lynch S&B and I couldn't let that happen. Not enough people online at the time to switch and keep S&B alive. So basically your fault <3 | ||
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You voted no-lynch AFTER you already forced me to claim. And, knowing my own Role PM left no room for S&B to be scum, if I unvoted S&B would have died. There just weren't enough people to switch off of both S&B *AND* Nisani. | ||
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On October 12 2012 10:35 Mattchew wrote: alright srsly, why didn't you guys shoot keirathi night 2 or 3. That's a good question. After the claim, I feel like every single person had me as town. | ||
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Would have been epic! | ||
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Mattchew (1 HP) gonzaw (1 HP) strongandbig (.5 HP) Keirathi (1 HP) HiroPro (.5 HP) austinmcc (1 HP) JingleHell (1 HP) With Matt not able to bus himself, and gonzaw becoming red if Chell died, the only chance town had of surviving through the night was if JH made austin shoot Hiro, *AND* we just let Matt die. That would have put us at 2 red, 2 green, and 1 black. If JH made austin shoot anyone else, it wouldn't have mattered and still been end-game. | ||
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On October 12 2012 13:10 JingleHell wrote: Hey, credit where due, you started a shitstorm  , I just got absurdly lucky that people decided to skip over pages instead of realizing I was fanning the flames deliberately.I think my worst slip that I was lucky nobody caught, though, was accusing you of foreknowledge on Draz. I really should have saved that for after the flip so nobody would notice it was almost like *I* knew he wasn't scum. Really, roughly everything I said was scummy about you, I caught myself doing at some other point 2 seconds after I hit post. But by then nobody wanted to read anything that had both of our names in it. By late, I had neutralized myself too effectively. That's....pretty accurate. By the Ed of the game, if I saw you post and it had the word gonzaw anywhere in it, I basically just ignored it. Although I still thought you were scummy :p | ||
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Why didn't you use your action last night? | ||
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austin wrote in QT: JH what are you doing. I absolutely don't believe that role he claimed. It's both far too vanilla for this game AND his justifications for being town are bad. Is he black scum? I still don't see that post against mattchew as coming from scum. I guess there's an outside possibility he and mattchew are BOTH black scum? Perhaps he could make a ridiculous argument in that case to distance himself from matt. But it still feels townie. I think he's hiding a way to be killed or something like that. Way to be killed, extra win condition, etc. I told you! | ||
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He claimed that a night action on him got redirected. The only night action that we *KNEW* targetted him on night 2 was ghost. Hiro and ghost changed places in the list. That should have been enough to lynch him, but I let myself get convinced that Hiro wasn't scum early, and couldn't change my mind even after his super safe claim that made more sense from a mafia alignment than a town one | ||
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@Crossfire: I agree. I got pretty bored/lazy when we started trying to solve the game rather than play it. I feel like if we just kept scumhunting, we were actually on a pretty good track. I was pushing austin until the gonzaw claim and then everything just blew up | ||
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On October 12 2012 13:54 gonzaw wrote: Ehm....there were only 2 active townies in the thread, me and Kei and I did most of the talking so I guess you should say "I'm upset that gonzaw decided to speculate on the setup and not scumhunt" I tried to scumhunt on D3 but meh everybody was off parking a vote on Draz and leaving so I couldn't really do much since I wasn't too convinced. Holy shit, how do you have a 20 page filter in a 90 page game. Rofl. | ||
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On October 12 2012 13:55 Keirathi wrote: Holy shit, how do you have a 20 page filter in a 90 page game. Rofl. Oh, I guess I have 15 pages. I probably wrote up another 40 posts worth of stuff that I didn't actually post too, though | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:03 Crossfire99 wrote: well we sorta had to play like town. I lumped us in there because our #1 threat was RS. I mean we had the only DT but no KP, except for my very conditional KP. You guys should have killed someone day2 btw. Should have had ghost position swap you night 1 to trigger your vig ability. | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:13 gonzaw wrote: I would have thought he would have gotten protection on N1 though. I mean, he was like "confirmed town" by that point, wasn't him? Why didn't any of the 4 "medics" (Nisani, Kei, S&B, Mementos) protect him? lol I didn't know what S&B's role was. All I knew on night 1 was that whoever I targetted, ATLAS targetted too. And all I had was an anti-roleblock. I basically just picked a random name out of the hat for my night 1 action | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:19 Crossfire99 wrote: Anyway, I had a lot of fun, GreY. Thanks for hosting. I definitely want to play in the next one if there's one. Agreed. Host a new one soon <3 | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:20 GreYMisT wrote: I totaly should have made ATLAS and P-Body on opposite teams with those same abiliites except P-Body's would roleblock someone unless they were already being roleblocked, in which case it unroleblocks them. Basically end up with scum jailer and a town jailer that way, however town would have atlas and scum would have P-Body. That way if scum get a medic kill they are rewarded with a RBer, and if town get a RB kill they are rewarded with a medic. what do you guys think? As long as you specify in the Role PM that they could be (or ARE) different alignments. I spent the entire game 99.999% trusting that S&B was town because your Role PM didn't really leave room for ambiguity, while the House Chezinu PM's in Aperture 1 specifically did allow of different factions :D | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote: my role pm didnt say you were town, it didn't say anything about your alignment. Welcome to Aperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition! You are P-Body, the Roleblocker Roleblocker. You and your buddy A.T.L.A.S. (who is also in the game) are great test takers! You are much more cunning than your partner, and can help others solve tests. Each night you may target a player, and remove all roleblock effects on them for that night. Because you and A.T.L.A.S. are so in sync, whoever he targets with his ability you will also affect as well. you win with the town If it said that, and a "Test Giver" flipped, and you were somehow scum, I would have been pretty pissed. Why would scum P-Body and town ATLAS (or vice-versa) be buddies at all? Much less specifically say we are both test takers. | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:33 gonzaw wrote: Did S&B/Kei target me or one of them that night? I don't really get how that's being invincible. If let's say S&B was shot that night...I'd get shot instead and die, right? No, S&B and I targetted each other. If S&B was shot, it would have been bussed to you. But since you were also bussed with me, it would have been bussed to me instead. So basically, with the double bus on you, S&B and I were bussed with each other. | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:57 GreYMisT wrote: Really want the flavor I would use? Hello, Cave Johnson here! Welcome to cooperative antagonist robotic testing! Today is a great leap forward in science, so you should be proud! Or rather your computer brains should be simulating proudness. Anyway after watching robots try to work together but then get each other killed, we decided to see how well robots trying to kill each other work together. Makes sense right? RIGHT?!?! Anyway, get out there and try to work towards your common goal of beating the other. You'll do fine. We're done here. That would be much, much more ambiguous and would have left room for one or the other to be scum. I totally don't think the PMs in this game left wiggle room for the other one of us to be scum, so if they were opposite alignments it would have been bastard modding I do like that role concept for the next one though <3 | ||
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