/in
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Kreb
4834 Posts
/in | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On September 29 2012 10:33 BlackMamba24 wrote: huh why wouldn't you be, didn't i specifically ask you to join? did i miss your sign up? what about me then? | ||
Kreb
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GLHF! | ||
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You still didnt reply to what you dont like about Shadys content. | ||
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On October 01 2012 01:17 kingjames01 wrote: There's no need to be defensive. I said that the post seemed contrived, not that it was. Not sure what part if what Keirathi posted was defensive. He questioned your scum-read, thats all. If anything you're sounding defensive. He asked you to back up your claim and you're the one kinda backing off making excuses it just "sounded" mafia-like but wasnt (and "seemed contrived" but not necessarily was). | ||
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He starts off by coming into the game with this post: + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 00:19 kingjames01 wrote: I was mafia in a DrH game where there were clues. As mafia, I spent the entire game speculating on what the clues meant and who they were pointing to rather than to actually hunt for spies. The Town got caught up in it and we ended up winning the game with some false claims. I want this game to focus on scum hunting and not rely on the crutch of sifting through possible clues. We should be aware of any players who encourage using time and effort on scum hunting via clues. That being said, I'm going to quote some posts so I don't lose them. They're not proof of alignment yet, but they give off a scummy stench. A bit of a random recap from his other game and following it up with just general statements about how we should play without really saying anything which helps us move forward in our scumhunting. Then quotes a few just "to not lose them" (?????) and saying they're scummy completely without motivation. He then goes on by, as marv put it, "take a lead in the Wiffly Waffly Awards" seemingly wanting to get out of the discussion or anything which can put him in trouble. And finally this: On October 01 2012 03:17 kingjames01 wrote: If we want lurkers to post more, then we all have to contribute meaningfully. This will force scum to come out of hiding in order to fit in. They're going to try to post from the perspective that they're Town but it's pretty hard to do so. At that point we can work on who actually cares about scum hunting and who is just pretending. Which, like the first post, is extremely general and wishy washy without really contributing to scum hunting, while also trying to take a light jab at the lurkers. Also note that lurkers hasnt been a point of discussion so far, so it wasnt like he was joining an already existing conversation, but he phrases it like "if we want lurkers to post more" like if that had been something we had tried to get done or which had already been up for discussion. Even if it had been a discussion, its all just a big "Guys, scum is gonna try to blend in, we really need try our best because then we'll be able to catch them much more easily!!!!" - post, which really says absolutely nothing. | ||
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On October 01 2012 08:22 kushm4sta wrote: Kreb, kj post about lurkers was in response to a post I made, asking what stops mafia from hiding among the lurkers. Ok, I can see it being related to that. So maybe a bit bad on my part there. Though you're talking more about just how it works in general with lurkers in a big game where he talks more about how to up lurker posting quantity. And while somewhat related, he isnt really answering question in any way. But as i said, even if it wasnt an honest attempt at replying to your post, its just an extremely general "Guys, scum is gonna try to blend in, we really need try our best because then we'll be able to catch them much more easily!!!!" - post. I'll take into account it might have been an honest reply to you though. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 12:42 Z-BosoN wrote: I don't get why people are thinking his trolliness is scummy. He mentioned he was gonna be a troll before he got his role PM. His "all is as was planned" reaction afterwards is the most ridiculous thing he's ever posted imo and just makes me want to punch him. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 13:54 Shady Sands wrote: Yes! Thank goodness the gambit worked. The whole plan was either to troll hard and have some fun, or enjoy a serious, non-troll game of Mafia by inciting the mod to explicitly threaten a modkill for trolling and scare all the trolls into the straight and narrow. Shiao, you can thank me after the game is over. With that being said, I find the easy rando-vote at the beginning highly suspicious. ## Unvote ## Vote Z-Boson Explain your rando-vote without trolling as a factor. I don't see how that's scum-motivated, I'd like someone to explain this to me. At best, it makes him a snot I want to punch. Coags latest post however: Strikes me as much scummier. He didn't feel the need to say why SS seems scummy, as if it were crystal clear as to why he is scum. I also don't like that kingjames fellow. His posts are almost all useless, and don't add basically anything. + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 03:17 kingjames01 wrote: If we want lurkers to post more, then we all have to contribute meaningfully. This will force scum to come out of hiding in order to fit in. They're going to try to post from the perspective that they're Town but it's pretty hard to do so. At that point we can work on who actually cares about scum hunting and who is just pretending. On October 01 2012 01:33 kingjames01 wrote: What? I didn't say that it was contrived. I said it seemed contrived. The point was that it seemed contrived. And his "interrogation" of shady sands, which I don't clearly see the purpose of: One more thing that I don't like is VisceraEyes's case history. Spends a billion posts tunneling annul, based on a "trying to spot clues" (?) read. Then suddenly feels that his emotions got the better of him, and reconsiders. Which is funny, because VE started the attacks. It's not like he was attacked and got emotinal. Then in this post: He finally addresses shady sands and proposes to vote on him. Now look at how he addresses kingjames. In this same post, he goes from a "not a scum read", to a "someone I want dead". At first I thought it was understandable because he was referring specifically to KJ's input on scumhunting in an inactivish environment. However, it's the bolded underlined part that gets to me. What I understood here is that if KJ only had the one post, he would be better than those who haven't posted at all. But then he goes to say that KJ is not commenting on stuff going on in the game (when, ironically, he himself had only just addressed shady sands, which is the first big issue) plus a bunch of other confusing stuff I don't follow, thus putting KJ as a bigger scum read than the rest. I'd like him to clarify this. This concludes the people I don't like so far. Out of those, VE seems the scummiest to me, because his play doesn't make sense for me from a town perspective, his conflict with annul seemed too fake. ##FOS VE I largely agree. I dont see the scum motives behind Shadys "gambit", and he also posted it before the game started. Coagulation is moving up the scummyness ladder with pretty useless posts, the difference between him and kingjames seem to be that kingjames tries to make it look like he's contributing while Coag just posts random shit. Im not sure which one is more scummy but leaning towards KJ in that case. VE's post I dont think is as scummy as you try to make it sound though. He doesnt go from "not a scum read", to a "someone I want dead" but rather from "not a scum read", to a "willing to lynch" and theres a difference there. Though even if theres a difference, its somewhat contradictory and it would be nice with an explanation from VE. I'll put down my vote on kingjames for now, its still the best we have so far in my opinion. ##Vote kingjames01 | ||
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On October 01 2012 16:53 risk.nuke wrote: ##Vote Shady On the KingJames situation. You guys sure can take some grass and call it a forest. Or misrepresenting and lying as the factual terms are. I dislike defending people unless I'm heavily certain they are town but I mean spouting bullshit on how he's been fake-contributing day1 while half the thread have barely said a word strikes me as heavily weird. More suspicious still the people praising it as legit case. You can't all be scum so are you deliberately ignorant? Yes, because fake-contributing is more scummy than not contributing at all. It should be quite common to have both town and scum hiding among the low post count and little contribution posters. But there is no reason for a town to fake contribute ever (even though new town players probably often feel that way). There are motives for both town and scum to lurk, but there are no (good) motives for town to fake-contribute. Not only do you seem unaware/ignorant of this, your post also raises other questions/concerns: 1) Point me towards the "spouting bullshit" parts. You make it sound like you're disagreeing he is fake-contributing. Is that correct? Whats your take on his posting in that case, if you dont see it as fake-contributing? 2) You vote person A and spend time writing why you didnt vote person B. You havent said a word to back up your Shady vote, and the only thing your filter contains is a suggested Kush-vote. So why did you vote Shady? 3) Are you sitll in favor of a Kush-vote? If so, why? | ||
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On October 01 2012 16:48 Risen wrote: Because he'd be the first person in the history of mafia to give himself an out pre-game if he drew scum. Even if that was the purpose of his post, how does giving yourself an out pre-game increase the chances of him being (randoming) scum? God thats some silly argumenting. | ||
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On October 01 2012 19:13 risk.nuke wrote: Fist things first. Now you don't have the first clue about what fake-contribution is which makes it difficult to discuss the subject. A person fake-contributing is someone floating around, have proven to be active + Show Spoiler + otherwise they must fall into the lurker category untill they reach a certain amount of posts which has nothing whatsoever do to with their posts/day ratio) Meaning they can be both lurkers and fake-contributers but not for a couple of days. As for most fake-contributing posts they are not some sort of evil posts in disguise only visible to your lens of truth. They are simply general posts and most often helpful to a lesser degree. Most importantly what you don't grasp is both townies and scum do them and are because of this null-tells. I have absolutely no idea what you mean when you say townies have absolutely no purpose fake-contributing. It's purified dumb. 1 Having now explained the term fake-contributor I can answer your post. It's bullshit to call someone a fake-contributor day 1 almost without exception because it's in generally to early to tell the persons agenda. 2 I voted for shady because it's down to him versus KingJames. Additionally I agreed and considered Shady being scummy even as I suggested the kush lynch. Which was done because I didn't want to sheep others the first thing I did (because there is little value in that) and because I wanted to discuss other candidates then shady (which was shutdown asap by marv, but nevertheless told me something about marv) As for why I choose kush the filters weren't implied so I picked the first suspicious filter I found. 3 A kush lynch i don't see happening and a voteswitch to kush now I'd disagree with because my suspicion against a successful late bandwagon switch would be greater then my suspicion against kush. (Node. you're late to the party.) If you rephrase the question. Am I still suspicious against kush I will tell you I think kush is scummier now then I did at the time I suggested the vote on him. Great, that actually answers a lot of things. Though I will disagree that "its down to him vs KJ". If you have some solid scum-read on anyone you should share it, theres plenty of time to switch votes. Taking the approach "well its down to guy A or guy B so Im only gonna consider those two" when its like 18 (?) hours left and more than half the players havent even voted sounds kinda lazy. If thats what "early" votes causes to happen I really regret putting down my own vote as early as I did, heh. Anyway, whats your thought on Z-Bosons cases on VE and Coagulation? | ||
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On October 01 2012 23:06 kushm4sta wrote: Who would I rather lynch? anull because his anger seemed contrived. Contrived anger is one of those things where you can't prove it but if its happening it means they are 100 scum. No town would ever have contrived anger. Then again I'm at quite a disadvantage because I do not know any of the big players meta. VE was quite scummy to me, for instance, like how he dropped that anul vote so easily with a really bad explanation. Marv says he is acting un accordance with his meta though, and that's not something I can really argue with. Let's just lynch shady. Worst case scenario, shady is gone. Sounds pretty win-win. He can get back to his CLIENTS. my read on him is null maybe slightly town. Man, you're trying pretty hard to move away from the spazzy town I know you as. I wasnt really considering you scummy until recently, but you're working so hard to get there Im gonna have to give in soon. Especially the last three sentences makes no sense at all. Actually saying "Lets just lynch X" like you really mean it as a proper argument. Worst case is we lose a town, yes? How is that win-win? And then finishing it by saying you have a null/town-read on him?????? On top of that we have the contradictory part where you say also no one who I want to lynch is getting lynched yet you seem to want to lynch Shady pretty badly. And the phrasing on that quote also make it sound like you have several you wanna lynch, yet you only mention one (annul). Im blown away. I'll unvote, KJ is still a viable target to me but Kush is moving up there too. And I'd like at least a response to the accusations by SS before I completely write him off (dont really consider his posting scummy, but him going lurk-mode when things start to heat up is worrying). ##unvote | ||
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On October 01 2012 23:33 marvellosity wrote: kush as townie: Will vote for policy lynches just fine, check Calls Cubu probably not mafia but is happy to have his vote on him, check You have a point, but thats a lurker policy vote. If he's looking to lynch lurkers there still 1 or 2 who hasnt posted yet I think. His SS vote in this game seems more like a "I dont like him"-policy vote, which I cant even see how he could justify for himself that it makes sense from a town perspective. | ||
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On October 01 2012 23:57 marvellosity wrote: Good luck rationalising kush's play from any perspective. As in the post-game to my most recent newbie game, Hapahauli pointed out the significant difference in his town/scum play - his attitude. I'm nowhere near convinced his attitude this game is his scum attitude. This had me interested since I've only experienced town-kush. Posting since more people might want to check it out (Im assuming this is what marv means): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367548¤tpage=75 | ||
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On October 02 2012 05:40 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Again as a reader I have seen near no backlash to said lynch which means it seems people don't give a shit about it. Any lynch with such a passive case with near no push against it suggests mafia are fine with said lynch. That is another reason Im starting to feel a bit bad about him. Him moving on from extremely general advice to the whole thread about "we need to play like this guys" to taking light jabs at a lurker or two (who admittedly didnt contribute much) also follows what I could see being a inexperienced player trying to get out of trouble. That said I still dont really feel comfortable voting Kush either. He is very hard to read but as marv pointed out this might be town-kush playing and not mafia-kush. Too bad the deadline is pretty much the worst ever for me (at about 2h before I get up for work) so I wont be able to change my vote should anything come up the last 4-5h. Im still leaning towards KJ because its seemingly much less of a loss mislynching him than someone more active though. I'll try to make up my mind in the next 2h or so and present my vote. | ||
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On October 02 2012 07:47 risk.nuke wrote: Nope, don't buy it. The guy clearly had insight in what's going on so I'm making the assumption that he's been following the thread. And when a player lurk hard with that kind of first and only post I'm getting pretty damn suspicious he's discussing the game elsewhere. Are you suggesting a Sharrant vote? Despite you having said you have scum reads on Kush and Shady you still havent voted. Or are you still determined to vote one of those two? | ||
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The case by Talis on VE would seem much stronger had more people jumped in and backed it up he played like his scum-meta. But that didnt happen, rather the opposite. And considering I've got no meta information at all myself on VE I cant really comment on the case itself. But it really doesnt seem to take off, so I have no reason to look at this any further. Then we have BC pointing towards austin and risk. Out of those I'm currently thinking austin over risk. The reason being that risk came into the thread with a very agressive, insulting hard-defense of kingjames. First of all it seems a bit wierd for a mafia to come into a thread with that attitude. But his kind of agressive/insulting posting style has continued which at least to me makes it look genuine and not some kind of forced mafia stunt. Also we have this comment by sloosh: At the same time he [risk.nuke] can be totally lazy so you have to wait for him to generate content then evaluate what he brings. And lazy was pretty much exactly the word I called him when he decided to go for only Shady/Kush in the beginning rather than pushing any read himself. Not saying I have a town read on risk, but less of a scum read than austin. Austin on the other hand indeed had a pretty bad reason to vote for KJ. And his obsession with the spy comment seem a bit..... out of place. Cant say Im feeling super convinced about this either considering how early it is into the game and the length of peoples filters, but meh, gotta place my vote somewhere. As such: ##Vote austinmcc I'll be around for ~20 more min before going to sleep, not expecting something to happen but leaving the possibility open. | ||
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Ok, onto business. What bothers me is that by the time I went to sleep there was a minor Austin wagon starting. It didnt take off at all. Then some time later Node comes in as a target and BOOM there plenty of votes going his way. Lets take a look at the posts which started these wagons: I guess this would be the first post about austin, and it sums up the case on him pretty well: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 05:40 BloodyC0bbler wrote: -_- if you read the OP you would clearly see above the roles that all in the game are included but details of them are not known. If their was a role with the name of spy everyone would know about it just not what it does. You jumping on him for something that is obviously not a role and wanting to lynch screams to me "i found a powerrole, lets lynch it" You have a horrible reason for jumping on KJ and it screams desperate for a reason to lynch him. Then theres the Node case: + Show Spoiler + Node Node is super duper scummy. Again, for emphasis On October 02 2012 09:00 austinmcc wrote: Node responds Another interesting mention of Shady: These feel like incredibly bad reasons for a townread. I don't see how NoT coNtINUinG TYpINg LIKe tHIs and throwing a bunch of obscenities around is townie. I don't see Shady pushing other targets. To be fair, this was before he disappeared from the thread again. I don't like at all how he left completely once he wasn't in the lead for the lynch. Now that he's back in front don't be surprised to see him spring out of nowhere. However, I'd still rather see kush dead, overall. My thoughts have NOTHING to do with when Shady disappeared from thread. I call Node out for finding Shady town for (1) stopping trolling quickly (nothing to do with his absence later) and (2) saying he started to push other targets (which he didn't, before his absence).Doesnt it strike anyone as a bit odd how Node could gain so much momentum and not austin? I'll admit that the case on austin isnt the most extensive, but I certainly think its better than the Node case. Especially considering austin is the one initiating the Node wagon. After that follows a bunch of people saying "yea I like this" and it gets going incredibly quickly. Lets look at the case on Node itself: The case is built by the fact that, according to austin, Node calls Shady town for weak reasons. Yet he doesnt say anywhere in his post he calls him towny, he calls Shady "not scummy", not "towny". Also the case is largely built on the fact that Shady would be scum (I agree Node would look suspicious in that case, but now we know better at least). But if the case is built on that we should be pushing Shady, get his flip and then push Node afterwards when we know Shadys alignment. So we have a pretty big wagon starting for what I would call an extremely weak case. The timing of the case is also a bit telling with it starting soon after the austin wagon. There would be clear scum motives to start a rivalling wagon to austin if austin is scum. Also, note how this also effectively killed the austin wagon. Only two persons I could find actually posted a reason to not jump on that wagon, VE: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today. I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin. And Shiao: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 08:57 ShiaoPi wrote: On austin I am kind of split, but I would prefer to not lynch him today because he is quite an asset to town (if he is town aligned of course). While his absence and stuff had been worrying I would suggest waiting for day 2 on him. Sharrant and KJ also expresses approval on the austin-case (page 22) but it gets kinda drowned in what follows. But still, even with three voters and another two approving of it, it doesnt get half the momentum the Node wagon does! Ok, onto some conclusions on what I get from this. - I dont think Node is scum. The case is weak and the wagon strange. - I still think austin is scum and that mafia successfully managed to diverge town attention from austin to Node (while keeping Shady as a backup which they obviously were fine with). People I think come off as scummy because of this: - VisceraEyes + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today. I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin. Abandons austin with no good reason. He says he already has a reason ready after having read his filter, but somehow the two walls of text makes expressing those reasons unnecessary. He still hasnt yet expressed why he left austin. This seems very convenient. Ending it with a clear statement that "We're not lynching him today" also sounds weird. Even if VE is town and honestly believe austin isnt scum, why would he feel the need to add a strong statement like that? Why wouldnt he encourage further discussion on the austin-topic even though he doesnt plan to vote for him? - Marvellosity + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 10:58 marvellosity wrote: I have very similar thoughts to this indeed. There are still some of us around and votes are split. Let's see if we can push Node? As with you I prefer him to Shady and Shady to then anyone else. Less scummy than VE, could just be a case of trusting VE a bit too much. Also it seems a bit unlikely scum would line up three of their players to have one post a case (austin), and then two immediately following it (VE and marv). It would be a bit too obvious. However, this post: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 11:04 marvellosity wrote: let's do this ##vote: node Kinda strengthens the suspicions again. So Im not really sure where to put marv right now. Less scummy: Kush, Boson, imperfection, BroodKing. Since they are all joining the wagon without any real motivation. At this point the wagon is rolling and people are switching, but I will definitely keep my eye on these four. Overall I must say its remarkable how how people switch so fast to Node because of what I would call a very weak case made by a person who is currently set up to have a wagon starting on him (austin). I'd say its very likely we have at least one scum in the austin/VE/marv trio. Two is definitely possible too. All three? Maybe not, it would be a bit too obvious I feel. ------ Annul, being the first one to notice this, comes off as town to me. I'll look at the people mentioned more closely and see what additional info I can possibly find when I get more time. For now, this post just covers the (imo) terrible Node case. | ||
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On October 02 2012 17:47 thrawn2112 wrote: Kush are you scum? People have been calling him out for saying scummy sounding stuff, and some people have said that he's not playing at all like his scum meta. Well I don't think he's playing like his town meta. He's known for saying dumb stuff from time to time as either town/mafia but this game he just seems way too illogical, even taking his meta into account. In the last game I played with him where he was town he was extremely helpful and the flames were few and far between. His scum meta has been exposed to be full of faked anger, extreme failures of logic, and constant insults towards everyone in the game. The way he's playing this game strikes me as a slightly toned down version of his scum meta. He rolled scum twice in a row and everyone got to see his scum play, so he would have changed his meta somewhat if he were to roll scum again. But it still seems like he's putting up somewhat of an act, and in the games where he was town you could see right through to his obviously convoluted townie thought process. While reading through his posts in this game I get this huge "I don't give a shit" vibe about his feelings towards the lynch and he's said several things that suggest he's not trying very hard or caring about his vote, and that's not the town kush I know. Town kush = sometimes says dumb stuff, but you can see right through to his thought process and he's very cooperative in general Scum kush = faked anger, extreme stupidity at times, and likes to throw around insults very often This game = looks more like his scum meta than his town meta. He's being too illogical/rude for me to be able to write it off as his "scummy town-meta" Hmm, this kinda rivals marv's earlier claim about Kush. And considering: -I think marv acted scummy in the Node case -marv kinda defended Kush when early votes started to land on him -Kush was also an early joiner of the Node wagon -You think Kush is playing a toned down scum game Kush could definitely earn a spot in my scummy-looking group of austin/VE/Marv. | ||
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On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote: That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part. The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. On October 02 2012 13:40 VisceraEyes wrote: I really like austin all of a sudden. And really dislike Mattchew. It's going to be an eventful night guys. Sleep tight. Three lines of text, three questions: 1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this: At this point I'm null - I got a false read on him early on, and while I think his anger at me seems a little contrived, I know I've overreacted once or twice to people calling my posts stupid or something. Once that I remember for sure. Maybe twice. Has this changed? If so, why? 2) Why do you like austin? 3) Why do you dislike Mattchew? | ||
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On October 02 2012 20:01 marvellosity wrote: Here. Let me tell you why you're fucking awful. You're fucking awful because you've already managed to make a 4-man connection before anyone involved (node, austin, kush). Who do you think is better at understanding meta, newbie thrawn (no offence intended at all, just fact) or me? Who *have* we had flipped? We've had Shady flipped. Confirmed town. What drugs are you on when you're looking at those on the Node wagon as the most culpable, instead of the people who derailed it back to Shady? Who I think has better understanding of meta is irrelevant unless I know you're both town. But for the question, I dont have an opinion whether you or him are better right now. Havent played with you two enough. About the second part, because gave me my biggest "wtf is this"-feeling when reading through what happened. The Node wagon seems very unnatural and compared to other voting trends this game Nodes stand out big time. There will also be time to look at the Shady lynch, which I will try to do now among other things. Also: + Show Spoiler + Dont make me "pull an annul" on you please. If you cant keep level-header enough to make a response without calling me fucking awful, please take a few minutes to cool off before typing an answer. | ||
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On October 02 2012 21:24 iamperfection wrote: Why did you only include marv in those that defended kush. I remember several people doing. Myself included somewhat. There might have been more defending him, but only marv focused heavily on putting kush as his town meta in his defense (and not defended for other reasons), no? I there were more people doing it, I must've missed it and then I apologize for doing so. | ||
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On October 02 2012 21:39 marvellosity wrote: I'll explain it a little more factually for you, Kreb. At the time I started the voting off, the austin wagon was already not getting off the ground. Before I laid my vote, the count was at Shady: 9, austin: 3. And in fact people were consolidating on to Shady; when I placed my vote, the previous 5 votes had gone on to Shady. For Node to be a 'distractionary' wagon, it would certainly be a distractionary wagon off of Shady. Now tell me how this makes sense? That makes a bit more sense, yea. But that doesnt change the fact that the wagon seemed very forced and unnatural. Its true though there might be other purposes behind it than as an austin-distraction. | ||
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On October 03 2012 03:36 marvellosity wrote: I was perfectly level-headed. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Or in mafia lingo, don't make massive connection plays without any flips. Because it's like... fucking awful. My perspective on the Node wagon and how it went down: there were clearly a good number of people who weren't satisfied with the main options - kj, austin, Shady. Whereas Node was both lurking/not giving a crap about town, *and* looked scummy while doing so with his odd defence of Shady. And the only connection case I was working with was possibly you/kush. The other case about the Node wagon is a case in itself (the wagon was unnatural and forced -> the are likely scum among the people who pushed it, which were austin/VE/you). It does, however, get a lot stronger with flips. Should we lynch austin and he flips red, you and VE look really really bad. And I'll almost 100% be tunneling you two should that happen. For now Im more open to other options though. But it most certainly shouldnt be ignored just because we dont have a flip on any of you three yet. + Show Spoiler + If you were level-headed, then please post like you are too. And spare me of the tough-guy "yo, if you cant take some personal insults dont come into our hood". And you didnt say my connection case was fucking awful, you said I was. | ||
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On October 03 2012 01:03 ShiaoPi wrote: @Kreb: Did austin's recent posts change your read? What do you make of his apprehension of your post? Initially, nothing made me change my view of him. He came into the thread at a time when there were votes starting to get dropped his way. Joining the thread is a proper town move at that point, and also pointing out scummyness with other players also. However its not exactly a super crafty move to pull as mafia either, and the cases werent very strong if you ask me. But overall his initial posts gave me nothing on him which had him locked on the scummy side since before. Since then, two things have made me slightly less suspicious of austin: - His mega-case on annul. Not that I agree with all points, and it seemed he retracted some parts of it, but the extensiveness and the fact that he kept on contributing after being "saved" is towny. - Marv correctly pointing out that the last 5 votes was on Shady when the Node-wagon started. That doesnt make the wagon less suspicious, and it doesnt clear those who started the wagon in any way. But if makes it less likely that the purpose of the wagon was to disctract town from an austin-lynch. | ||
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But overall his initial posts gave me nothing new on him which had me keeping him locked on the scummy side since before. | ||
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On October 03 2012 04:28 thrawn2112 wrote: Kreb , are you saying that because marv and whoever else pushed a node lynch away from the shady lynch that means you're suspicious of them? Shady flipped green so I don't see how that argument makes sense. You say the node lynch was unnatural and possibly pushed by scum which if true would mean that node is green and shady is red.... but shady is green so I'm not understanding your logic. Well, theres is still the possibility of it being an austin-distraction. Or just as a general distraction from, well, any mafia. Theres also the purpose of just pushing for different townies left and right because it both creates confusion and probably makes it easier to blend in (if theres votes all over the place, everything is "ok", so mafia can pick any stance they want and seem genuine with it). I still dont see Node as scummy at all from his posting, and the way that wagon happened makes him look on the townish side. | ||
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On October 03 2012 04:46 marvellosity wrote: You're not making sense. The Node push makes no sense from a mafia distraction point of view because Shady was a townie heading inexorably for the lynch. It's in these situations mafia are usually happy to sit back as town happily hops on to the townie wagon. On Node: tell me, does his posting look like he cares for town? iamperfection pointed it out perfectly earlier: When Node was at great risk of being lynched, did he come in to drop reads and shit? No, he came in to call town stupid, and then promptly left again without making any reads or anything. How are you reading this as townie? You also, presumably from your attitude, find his defence of Shady townie. How? Want to talk about your connection stuff a little. You don't even realise how strongly you're doing it, or how it's affecting how you think. We have: You place your vote on him and you're not sure at all. Your very next post goes into theories about the Node wagon and how it looked and how it makes austin look much worse (which I think I've helped establish that it doesn't really). So you, yourself, never actually had strong feelings on austin if the quote above is true, until you started ladeling Node/austin/me/VE/wagon stuff on top of it. I dont find Node towny from his posting. I dont find Node scummy from his posting. Geez. He has a whole 3 posts and I dont find anything alignment indicative in any of them. Stop saying anything else. As for not posting more when he was getting voted on, I dont see how thats anything but a very very minor read in either direction. Yea I can see it being somewhat scummy, but its overshadowed by other happening. For the second part: What words do you want me to use? Not feeling good/feeling kinda good/feeling ok/feeling so-so/feeling good/feeling confident/feeling kinda confidect/etc. I use the wording "not feeling super convinced". Maybe I couldve phrased it better, but thats what you got. "Feeling kinda good" or "feeling better than about any other voting target" would probably have been accurate descriptions of my feelings at that time too. Thats ok with you? I dont see anything contradictory in the wording I used though. And my wording feels like quite an irrelevant discussion and I dont like to have to spend my time defending that. Heres a recap, hopefully we can drop this discussion after this, we're not doing any scumhunting atm (the last 12h has been all about me/you/austin/VE/annul/node, theres 18ppl neither posting nor being discussed) but I hate not responding to questions since it makes it look like I ignore them: When I went to sleep: thinking austin was the best target When I read the thread: going wtf over the Node-wagon, concluding that the most likely reason for such a wagon to occur is a distraction. If so, from who? Gotta be austin! Meaning scum read on austin increases. After the recent discussion: Lowered my scum read on austin somewhat, still thinking the wagon is scummy as hell, considering other reasons as to why said wagon was started. | ||
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Also: On October 03 2012 07:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote: It makes perfect sense for mafia to push node as a distraction case regardless of the fact shady flipped green. On October 03 2012 07:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Also pushing node as a "distraction" case would be perfect if austin is red. Why? Because it got heat off himself. On October 03 2012 07:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Also not sure how the node picked up so much steam the way it did given that the main person pushing said case was under some heat from people and the votes were slowly swinging the way. Thank you. I was beginning to think I was the only one thinking that way. Not sure what to make of it but its a bit strange no one (not even marv...) questions it when coming from another player. Hmm. | ||
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##Vote: marvellosity | ||
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On October 03 2012 19:55 kushm4sta wrote: I dont get why annul died.. Vig shot? Most likely seems to be mafia hit one veteran-type-of-role or was roleblocked/medic-saved (assuming mafia has 2kp). The other kp on kingjames. That said, speculation doesnt really get us anywhere, too many possible combinations and we dont even know the roles do or if traditional veteran/medic/roleblocker roles are present. | ||
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On October 03 2012 21:14 Z-BosoN wrote: Couple of thoughts from reading marvs filter, now that he is pretty much confirmed scum. First off, his reaction to kreb makes me raise an eyebrow. He was extremely aggressive for something that could simply have been a townie thought. Kreb also hadn't made an association case, he simply said that some people looked scummy. Also, kreb said that marvs node push made him look scummy and generally made a weak semicase vs marv. It didn't feel legit and marvs reaction felt forced. I myself don't know what I'm implying but I think this interaction will become useful later. There's also some interesting info regarding the node push. Marv stated that it didn't make sense at all from a mafia perspective, yet made the push. Pretty much an attempt at clearing suspicion. Now, I'm not gonna go and start accusing everyone on the node lynch because I myself sheeped it, as town. But Afaik, VE and marv basically started the Node push, and pretty much at the same time. Initially I thought this would clear node, but it's pretty easy to not actually make it go through as mafia. So, my conclusion from this is: VE looks pretty damn scummy right now. 1) He basically claimed he got RB(and its almost factual that at least one kill didn't go through). 2) marv showed weird hostility on the association kreb didn't make. 3) he co-led the Node push with another scum at the same time -> came from qt, quite possibly. They were pretty much caught with their pants down if it was indeed scum-influenced. Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?). He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on: 1) I've got my eye on ShadySands, annul and Mattchew right now. Pretty sure there's scum buried deep within that trio. 2 confirmed town flips. 2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip. 3) After dropping annul, posting this I'm willing to lynch into ShadySands, kingjames01 as it stands. We really need more content from everyone though. while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town. 4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though. 5) The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it). 6) Someone shoot him. We can lynch Node easier than Annul, and I want them both dead. Medics, on me and marv. DTs, on BC and Mattchew. We totally got this. Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town. He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm. | ||
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On October 03 2012 21:46 Z-BosoN wrote: Kreb, a lot of ppl called those players out, including myself (not-including shady sands). I think that's pretty much a null tell I'm pretty sure no one called out all three of Shady, Kingjames and Annul while simultaneously calling for a medic on a scum. Lots called one, someone might have called two, I'm pretty sure no one called three and Im 100% sure no one called all three + medic on scum. | ||
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On October 04 2012 06:50 Z-BosoN wrote: Kei, I don't get why scum would want to claim RB. I think he claimed RB because he did, in fact, get RB and doesn't want an angry roleblocker on his ass. So, we got 2 vigi shots, and 2 mafia shots accounted for? mafia on BC and ... austin? and vigis on kingjames01 and annul. If that's correct, probably all shots went through and my VE got roleblocked and thus didn't kill supposition is wrong. Unless... austin is lying just so the angry roleblocker doesn't push VE or whoever else might have gotten roleblock as well? Hm... Carry on I can see one reason to target austin though: Killing austin (supposing he is town) would possibly kill any support for the idea that the Node case was mafia-fabricated/fuelled. Because there would be no clear purpose to why mafia would have pushed it then. Maybe thats far-fetched, but its a thought anyway. Still thinking the whole idea with both a medic and vigi/mafia targetting austin seems strange though. Could austin be a veteran-role instead and claiming medic-save to confuse mafia? Or is there any other reason why a town-role would fake claim something like that? Or, of course, he is straight up lying and is scum. That said, while I dont mind the recent low quality discussion too much since its more than 4 days until next "real" lynch, I think people are spending a bit too much effort speculating on setup. Even if there are 3 medics, so what? That doesnt give us anything. | ||
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On October 04 2012 06:51 mkfuba07 wrote: [b]So, did anyone actually read what I wrote about VE? What did you think about it? Anyone? Well, a good 5+ have expressed suspicions of VE so far. I dont think we all need to go and quote each other saying we agree. The ball is in his court, lets wait and see if he has anything to say. | ||
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On October 04 2012 08:21 VisceraEyes wrote: So? What's the point of that post? Are you saying that you find me suspicious for my RB claim because it could be anything? Thanks guy, but I said that WHEN I CLAIMED. So I mean...obviously interpret it however you want. Was that directed to me? My last post wasnt directed to you (or anyone really), it was an addendum to That said, while I dont mind the recent low quality discussion too much since its more than 4 days until next "real" lynch, I think people are spending a bit too much effort speculating on setup. Even if there are 3 medics, so what? That doesnt give us anything. Meh, now Im getting into the speculating which I said I thought was fruitless.... | ||
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On October 04 2012 11:56 Z-BosoN wrote: That's him as townie, and that's him as scum. Unfortunately it's either vig or policy lynch for him. I think he fits his town meta a bit more then his scum meta, but I could be wrong here. Would be nice if someone who's played witih him, such as kreb (I think?) could attest to this. Only played with him as town. First day I think he was a bit more spazzy than usual, which I also pointed out. Since then, I'd say he fits his town meta pretty well. It could be a case of him understanding he needs to tone himself down a bit as scum though, and theres others things happening which also has made him look a bit scummy. But if I were to push him as scum, I probably wont use meta as a strong part of my argument. That said, Thrawn seemed to disagree with that in the small time he was in the thread. | ||
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On October 04 2012 16:01 Kreb wrote: Only played with him as town. First day I think he was a bit more spazzy than usual, which I also pointed out. Since then, I'd say he fits his town meta pretty well. It could be a case of him understanding he needs to tone himself down a bit as scum though, and theres others things happening which also has made him look a bit scummy. But if I were to push him as scum, I probably wont use meta as a strong part of my argument. That said, Thrawn seemed to disagree with that in the small time he was in the thread. Quoting myself when I think more about it. One thing that might not fit his town meta in this game is his willingness to jump votes all the time. He did it a lot in D1 and since then he's been spreading FoS'es and agreeing on cases left and right. I know him as a much more focused town player who, while still acting/posting about like he is doing now, wasnt as easily swayed in another direction. | ||
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On October 04 2012 09:04 mkfuba07 wrote: @SloOsh What do you think about my post regarding VE (linked above)? I see it as a reason to see VE as scum that doesn't simply revolve around him being incorrect. Same question goes for austinmcc and Kreb. Well theres clear scum motives to try and paint annul as dangerous mafia since it could make people more paranoid about him even though there might not be that many solid reasons to lynch him. So I think it holds some merit. However I probably wouldnt wanna lynch VE just because of that, to me its the whole package (kush posted some of the posts regarding him in one post, theres some more I'd like to add to that though) which is scummy. | ||
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On October 04 2012 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking. Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch. Im kinda of interested why you think its a good idea to wait with your supposed defense or whatever is gonna happen to make us not want to vote you. Care to share that? You letting the accusations kinda fall off peoples menories while the town (for a good readon) moves on to other scum-hunting doesnt really speak in your favor. You going trolling/spamming mode together with marv doesnt either. A town being concerned about being mislynched wouldnt wanna clog up the thread with uselss posts, would they? I'd be very disappointed in your defense is you jumping on, say, DPs case on Keirathi and went all in on that because its taken up a part of the thread and now it presents you a way out. | ||
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Other than that, I think DPs case on Keirathi holds some merit and people also seem to be coming back to Mattchew and expecting him to be more on a contributory player, which I dont consider him to be at the moment. Too bad we have a bunch of really low count posters out there too and theres a descent chance theres a scum or two hidden among those too. Also, Node didnt vote and seems to be likely to get repalced. Not sure who the other one is though. | ||
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##Vote Hapahauli | ||
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On October 07 2012 09:24 DarthPunk wrote: I know it is WIFOM. But he died. after having two clear suspects. Isn't it worth considering that he died for a reason? Especially considering Austin died the same night after calling out hapa that same night? it is WIFOM. So take it with several grains of salt. But to me it is worth looking into. Well, I did look into it. Read it and reread it, it was mostly a case built on "Shiao is a good player, this case was below his standard, it looks scummy". First I dont know enough of Shiao to really agree on the case itself. But even if the case was 100% true, the tell itself isnt strong at all. If I'd be interested enough I could probably find similarly strong cases on 5 or 10 other people in here who has made weaker than usual cases/strong than usual cases/less than usual cases/more than usual cases/responded different to cases/etc. If I'd be suspicious of Shiao because of that I'd be suspicious of 15ppl here, which kinda defeats the purpose of the suspicion. Stuff like that does in no way build a solid case in itself unless its much stronger than this. It is worth taking into account if a person does other scummy things, but I've seen nothing scummy (well, not more than anyone else anyway) of Shiao apart from that. Granted I havent looked too much into it due how uninteresting the game is with the obvious lynches, but thats my current feeling anyway. | ||
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On October 08 2012 03:57 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Hey all. I am aware I have been mia for awhile and to sum it all up, I have had a family emergency situation arise friday which is now thankfully dealt with for the time being, thanksgiving and work. I should be able to start committing time again to the game and will be doing so by reading through the thread since the marv lynch. I am apologetic to those in the game and those running it that I basically vanished but I honestly realize I hadn't said anything till now. Again, I am sorry for the disappearance and will begin sifting through the thread. Just quickly: Were you targetted this night again? We still havent heard anyone claim anything. | ||
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On October 08 2012 14:11 BroodKingEXE wrote: Mattchew didnt vote? Seems so. I guess we can expect a modkill. | ||
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Why then? Because of this: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 07:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote: This stands out to me for one major reason. It makes perfect sense for mafia to push node as a distraction case regardless of the fact shady flipped green. Ask VE or Node if they remember a game in the high 30's or low 40s run by FW with the weird mason mechanic (each player could mason any two players they chose but only two players) where on day 3 or 4 as mafia my entire team sat firmly on two sides of a townie vs townie lynch pushing each. Also pushing node as a "distraction" case would be perfect if austin is red. Why? Because it got heat off himself. However, this is me merely clearing up something I find instantly wrong and misleading. In regards to the lynch yesterday. Not sure how shady was lynched, thought we had passed that when I was active in the thread yesterday. Also not sure how the node picked up so much steam the way it did given that the main person pushing said case was under some heat from people and the votes were slowly swinging the way. Why do you ask? Because node had so very few posts and was easy to cherry pick. The case was also poor on him given the fact that well, its node. The only thing that speaks badly about his posting thus far is the lack of it. Making odd posts like he has is very typical of his play regardless of alignment, and the biggest tell is his lack of involvement in the game. Rather then making a case on his posts someone should have brought up the fact that a veteran player had made such few and weird looking posts as the main tell over his one sentence on his why he thought shady wasn't scum. I am back for most of the night so I will go through the thread to make sure I can get more info out given that I have a horrible trend of dying day 1's these days. Context: I presented my thought in the Node wagon and the conclusions from it. Marv entered a discussion with me to discredit me/my case and to deny any support of it. He probably did a pretty good job of it actually since I wasnt really getting much support, although it was during an inactive part of the day. In comes BC and drops the fact that Marvs reasoning was flawed. Now, why the fuck would you do that as scum? Unless its some really deep plan behind it, if you're marvs scum buddy at that time you stfu and hope Marvs arguing gets support from the masses while I get discredited. | ||
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On October 08 2012 19:32 Promethelax wrote: yeah I would say it seems he is not allied with marv (I'm scared about two scum factions because of stupid aperture); but it seems like a Node defense. Calling it similar to mafia on two townies. Node ain't no townie. Thanks for bringing that to my attention though, I'll keep it in mind. Do you think it is more likely he is town or SK(since you are sure he isn't with Marv).? Why? In case it wasn't clear I wouldn't vote BC next cycle without more reasoning than can be provided now. For the moment I want Risk to die first. Also: where the hell do you live? no one is ever on when I come home from work. Except for DP. Well, trying to pinpoint the SK with 16ppl left seems a bit futile. We dont even know the SKs wincon. If we knew it we might have had a chance to see whos playing towards that wincon, but as of now Im just disregarding the SK in any discussion of peoples alignments. And I live in Sweden (posting and reading a bit from work though). | ||
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But hey, we can always hope we get another Paramedic self-kill! | ||
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1) The Node wagon. This post: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today. I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin. is the most scummy thing about it. 1a) He only says he read through austins filters, but he very nicely avoids posting what he found in it. Instead he refers to "the two walls of his" as if that somehow makes everything 100% clear. He still, as of today, has not explained why he changed. 1b) His extremely weak (on unexisting) reason to switch to Node. Someone (who people seem to regard a very strong player) should not change that easily to such a weak case it was. 2) Refusing to answer to said cases and other quetions I just know what I asked him stuff myself, like this: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 19:54 Kreb wrote: @VE Three lines of text, three questions: 1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this: Has this changed? If so, why? 2) Why do you like austin? 3) Why do you dislike Mattchew? And he also refused to comment at all on my other accusations. To my knowledge he still hasnt said a word on the Node wagon yet. 3) The way he targetted annul 3a) His targetting D1 actually seemed to have a bit of reason behind it, but right after the Shady mislynch he says this: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote: That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part. The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Once again, no explanation. Just straight up calling annul scum. It goes on for a while and the only legitimate reason I could see for his targetting of annul was the fact that annul suggested a vote switch (to ZBoson i think) very close to the deadline even though he had questioned vote switching before. While I did agree on that particular point against annul, that alone did in no way motivate the way VE attacked him. Also, it seemed like that reason only was revealed a bit after he had already started attacking annul, like he found about it later. A proper townie would have explained first and targetted after. 3b) Also he tried to paint annul as some really crafty mafia so the rest of us would be suspicious of him too, even though there wasnt as much to be suspicious of. mkfuba made a good case on that part: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 23:51 mkfuba07 wrote: Alright, I'm going to be getting a bit more rest since I woke up for Code S. Current thoughts: I could definitely see VE being scum. His unfortunate scumhunting is a big piece of the puzzle, but his interaction with annul keeps nagging at me. It took me a while to figure out why I was so annoyed by these posts, but I think I've figured it out. VE first emphasizes that as scum annul can become "scary" (which I assume means that he can appear to become a good contributor, though VE never actually says how annul becomes "scary"), but leaves out the fact that he might do the same exact thing as town. It doesn't feel like VE is trying to inform the town of annul's apparent meta, as much as emphasize the scummy aspects of annul's meta and attribute it entirely to scum-annul. It would feel the same way if marv came in and said that I can be incredibly wishy-washy as scum. He's emphasized in previous games that I am the master of wishy-washiness regardless of alignment (though I've only ever been scum once, for little over a day). If he were to come into this game and try to convince everyone that I'm only wishy-washy when I'm scum, then I would be incredibly suspicious of him (In fact, I believe that's part of why he avoided talking about me at all despite my case being in the same post as the Node one). In VE's case, it looks like he tried to do a similar thing, and then when annul called him out on it he tried to minimize the effect. Why say that scum-annul can be "scary" if town-annul can also be "scary" unless you're trying to make vigis take the shot without a proper reason? It seems like a pretty scummy interaction from VE. I'd really like to hear thoughts from others, as this is the first thing I feel pretty confident about this game. Finally, I'm still waiting on input from mementoss... I know that 15 pages is a lot to go through, but I'm not going to put him aside just because one of the people who was calling him out is going to flip scum. There are other lurkers, but he's promised more contributions twice now, and we've seen nothing from it. 4) Meta reads This isnt something I can really confirm but I'll add it since it makes sence because of how many peopel have expressed them. Talismania started off by calling his meta scummy early D1. That kinda died off (probably for a good reason), but since then a lot of people have commented on how VE as town is MUCH more active, sometimes/often (?) something of a town leader and being much more contributory than how he is this game. 5) Extremely scummy (or bad if he really is town) scumhunting Already posted about this, here: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 21:33 Kreb wrote: Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?). He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on: 1) 2 confirmed town flips. 2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip. 3) After dropping annul, posting this while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town. 4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though. 5) Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it). 6) Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town. He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm. 6) His post-marv-revelation behavior 6a) After having had many people saying they were suspicious of him post Marvs revelation, how did he reply? He replied with some wierd extreme confidence. Look here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 08:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Please, by all means. Bring it on. I haven't done anything wrong except be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm scum. It means I'm bad at the game. At least 75% of the players in this game knew that already. :/ Here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 09:32 VisceraEyes wrote: When you line it all up like that it makes it easy to see how laughable the case against me is. Thank you kush. Seriously, I was starting to worry until you did that. And here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote: On October 04 2012 09:37 kushm4sta wrote: You said you were going to read through the thread again so you could figure things out. Instead of making a case against someone you just sit in the thread wise cracking? Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking. Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch. Im not sure why scum would really wanna do that, but its 100% not towny to do. Compare to DPs case on Keirathi for example, or the french dudes on Shiao. No matter whether you like the cases or not, both Kei and Shiao were properly there to respond to the cases like a town should. VE did something completely different. Also note how he never really commented on this afterwards either, but rather seems to be banking on it being forgotten. To me, it seems more likely he "gave up" or "lost interest" (someone already pointed that out, I think it was Coag, and VE rejected it) due to the percieved OPness/sillyness of the Paramedic role. He probably intented some kind of agressive/confident defense initally, but then just didnt care about it enough. 6b) Also note how he went trollmode with marv for a while (towny thing to do? hell no.) Its quite clear he enjoys playing with marv, which further strengthens the belief that he lost interest/gave up when Marv got caught in such a silly way. 7) Marvs motive behind his discussion with me Ok, this is a new point, but I saved maybe the best for last. Lets look again at the context of Marvs behaviour of my case. First, lets look at what I wrote: On October 02 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote: Overall I must say its remarkable how how people switch so fast to Node because of what I would call a very weak case made by a person who is currently set up to have a wagon starting on him (austin). I'd say its very likely we have at least one scum in the austin/VE/marv trio. Two is definitely possible too. All three? Maybe not, it would be a bit too obvious I feel. On October 02 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote: . I dont think Node is scum. The case is weak and the wagon strange. Later I also kinda halfassed bunched Kush into my group of scummy people. So what do we know now: - Node is scum (I was wrong) - Austin was twon (I was wrong) - Marv is scum (I was right) Now, lets for a moment assume both VE and Kush are town. And with that assumption in mind, lets look at what Marv had to say about my case: On October 02 2012 20:01 marvellosity wrote: On October 02 2012 18:54 Kreb wrote: Hmm, this kinda rivals marv's earlier claim about Kush. And considering: -I think marv acted scummy in the Node case -marv kinda defended Kush when early votes started to land on him -Kush was also an early joiner of the Node wagon -You think Kush is playing a toned down scum game Kush could definitely earn a spot in my scummy-looking group of austin/VE/Marv. Here. Let me tell you why you're fucking awful. You're fucking awful because you've already managed to make a 4-man connection before anyone involved (node, austin, kush). Who do you think is better at understanding meta, newbie thrawn (no offence intended at all, just fact) or me? Who *have* we had flipped? We've had Shady flipped. Confirmed town. What drugs are you on when you're looking at those on the Node wagon as the most culpable, instead of the people who derailed it back to Shady? Damn right I defended kush, I think he's playing to his town meta far more than his scum meta, and he's such a god damn easy lynch for scum just to park on going "lol scumslip must be scum." Looking at the voting list, the interesting points are players like BC, Matt, Keir, talis. It became clear kj wasn't a realistic lynch target with plenty of time to spare. BC came in, contributed some, then totally disappeared. Not sure on Keir. talis may be the worst of the bunch with his awful case on VE and subsequent total disappearance. Later turning into: On October 03 2012 05:31 marvellosity wrote: On October 03 2012 05:27 austinmcc wrote: Marv, I don't know kreb's play well/at all, but right now I'm not as scummy on him as I am on other players, and at the very least it seems that pushing him is just going to get things more and more twisted up. aye, it's why I've read his response and I'm not replying for now, as it's fruitless. I'm seeing him as misguided townie atm. Now, specifically note how he is targetting me. Not the part of my case directed to him, but me (and my case) as a whole. Now, why would you want to do that if I only were right about Marv being scummy!!?? Why would he react like that if I was wrong about Node, Austin, VE and Kush?!!? Theres absolutely no reason to. The aggressiveness of his defense clearly tells me I was onto something more than just him. If he was the only thing I had right in my post, theres several other much better approaches he couldve used to abuse my mis-reads. He could have agreed on it, admitting it was wierd (which likely would have had me going straight after VE), knowing that there was a very high chance I'd go after a town. But he didnt. He could have defended himself alone, citing town reads on VE as reason why he followed him. He didnt. He could have not said anything at all, hoping it would turn into a austin or VE lynch. He didnt. Instead he decided to go and agressively discredit me and as such my whole case. And I just cant see why he would do that if the only thing I predicted right was Marvs scummyness. I think I must have hit something more to motivate this response. And while it could possible be Kush, I think VE is the most likely person. Or hell, maybe even both. Bonus point + Show Spoiler + This is definitely confirmation bias if I somehow would be wrong about all this, but out of all replies to the mkfuba/hapa thing, this still stood out to me: [B]On October 06 2012 21:10 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: Hapa Twice in one game. Damn fine work guys. Sick crumb fuba. Really? Is that geniune happiness or irony and bitterness? | ||
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Small question that has been annoying me since your claim: On October 09 2012 06:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote: You are correct, I did claim medic prot to avoid getting shot again. Given that I only have 1 extra night life. Not sure why everyone keeps coming at me about being a third party but since your reasoning for your conclusion is wrong I will sum it up for you. Miller was removed from this game, the miller role was named "veteran". The actual veteran role however was not removed from the game. I am Lucky Citizen . How do you know "Veteran" was the miller role? | ||
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I thought it was a pretty strange thing to claim to know through gameplay. :p | ||
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On October 09 2012 23:59 slOosh wrote: My third party read is much much stronger than my scum reads. On October 10 2012 00:00 slOosh wrote: Or rather, one of my stronger scum reads became a third party read. Neither of these reply to the question. Why do you want to lynch 3rd party rather than scum? Actually, that could be a question for everyone. Even if we knew BC was 100% 3rd party, do we really wanna lynch him? Does mafia or town benefit from keeping 3rd party alive? | ||
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With no rivalling claims to VE there seems to be little reason to not join the kush wagon. It seems I was quite wrong about VE too, but at least the fact that Kush is scum explains some things I had interpreted (hey, let me have my moment of not feeling like a fool please!). As for the other recent exchanges. I think sloosh comes out in a bad light. His reasoning behind him pushing BC didnt seem very well thought out and it seems he has backed off of it. But theres clear scum motives to try and get BC lynched should he be a veteran. MMToss.... hmmmm. Theres convenience in claiming an already flipped role and following it up with claiming roleblock, but given his short filter its pretty hard to find something else that really strikes out as scummy. Probably gonna read through Z-Boson next, but first thought is Im getting a lot less scummy vibes from either side of the VE/Boson exchange than from sloosh. ##Unvote ##Vote Kushm4sta | ||
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On October 10 2012 16:36 Z-BosoN wrote: Fuck man, it's 4 am here... I'm trying to dismiss you so I can sleep Let me try harder, then, since it seems like you actually care about what I have to say I did not want Node to die to this wagon. I thought it was unjustified. I decided this after I put my vote on Node and ever since I've been playing a lot differently. I also did not want to kill shady. Therefore, I changed to someone else. What I said later was: If I were scum (ok assume I'm scum) and I my unvoting was actually an attempt to save Node, why the HELL would I have done that 40-50 min prior to the lynch? I feel that this wouldn't accomplish shit, and would probably throw my ass on the line (as is what's happening). I'm arguing that it would be completely ridiculous for me, as scum, to want to save Node in such a manner. Why? Because I'd be sticking my neck out and for what? No guarantees? I'd most likely wait until actual lynch time to see if my switching of votes would make a difference. I'm add something new here. YOU are probably thinking that I unvoted because I realized that Node was actually maybe gonna get lynched for real. My post in the thread came 9 minutes after the 7/7 post on the vote thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260¤tpage=29#573 So for this theory to be true, I've had to instantly refresh the voting thread, quickly as hell change my mind, write a post and 9 minutes later, BAM, post that I had changed my mind. That supports the fact that I got unlucky right? Because 9 minutes to make the post I made and to make a decision of this caliber, AND assuming I read the vote tally right after it came off is a bit too much, no? Hopefully that makes my claim more believable That is actually an incredibly weak defense when I read through it again though lol (might have ro re-evaluate my 10min old claim of VE/Boson exhange being less scummy.....). The first bolded part is null. I hate when people say "if I was scum doing this would make no sense" beceause that is exactly the reason why it might make sense for scum. The ideas doing stuff "too scummy to be scum" or "too stupid to be planned" are very real, and yes, that is something mafia players can and have used. So that means nothing. The 2nd bolded part..... Im honestly surprised you're bringing up that as a defense at all. Its like there would be some magic threshold at the vote score 7-7 where up until then no mafia would care about it but when passed they wouldnt. Yea, if it was like that, your 9min theory makes sense. OR you actually thought about switching already at 4-7 or 5-7, thought about it more at 6-7 and decided that at 7-7 it was getting out of hand and decided to switch. On your plus side though is the fact that Marv pushed the case, which we still dont really know why, but we have to assume that mafia were prepared to bus Node (maybe because he was inactive, shown by his need for a replacement). So your actions stand against those of marv, which is good for you. | ||
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On October 10 2012 17:15 kushm4sta wrote: im not scum you noobs and you should know that. first person to unvote me gets an ice cream sandwich. ##Unvote Kushm4sta ##Vote Kushm4sta Gimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimme. | ||
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On October 10 2012 21:59 Mattchew wrote: honestly? look at the last 3 days (i honestly thought i voted hapa) but theres been no real necessary discussion. lynch marv, hapa, kush. We aren't lynching off analysis or discussion, we are lynching off of roles and setup ish. Are you trying to say you dont see the benefits of keeping the discussion active? | ||
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On October 11 2012 18:36 Z-BosoN wrote: Wait, what??? I call bullshit right there. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260¤tpage=25#499 You typed in ##vote node one minute after marv gave the first vote, being the second one to vote node. You wanted to lynch him waaay before there was any sort of information on the wagon. That's definitely not why you wanted to lynch node. Thats actually a very good point. Its really about time we lynch him. | ||
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On October 11 2012 19:14 marvellosity wrote: *ahem* Ou est les shitty pants? Keep doing the popcorn smiley if you want. Otherwise: On September 25 2012 03:01 BlackMamba24 wrote: Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. | ||
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Cant really put my finger on what it could be though. All claims seem somewhat valid, but that doesnt feel right either. | ||
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Players know the name of every role in the game but information on powers is withheld. Specific numbers of town/mafia/third-party are unknown. Quite clear, no? | ||
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On October 11 2012 21:38 Mementoss wrote: sorry if this had been mentioned but does anyone know how KJ died night 1? Was it a claimed shot or mafia shot. While there of course are other possibilities, seems almost 100% chance it was a mafia shot. | ||
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On October 11 2012 21:53 Mementoss wrote: also if all roles are in this game, like you imply and no one counter claims VE there is no reason to lynch him am I right? Im trying to explore possibilities why it would still be possible. Theres of course always possibilities, but they seem quite far-fetched atm, all depends on the design of all the roles. Then, of course, I might also be wrong and all roles arent in the game. I actually hadnt considered that before, just as you seemingly hadnt considered they could all be in guaranteed. :p | ||
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On October 11 2012 22:33 Mementoss wrote: And by multiple scenarios you mean 3: VE is lieing -> Lynch VE VE is insane -> Lynch Coag Kush framed -> Lynch???? So by this logic you think there is a framer, but I know for a fact there is a roleblocker. There is no role that is unclaimed or unflipped that looks like a framer to mean, (or a role blocked) But I know one of them that looks mafia like, is probably a roleblocked. How is coag town regardless of VE's alignment, VE lies to give a town check on coag, and VE flipps scum, you still think coag is auto town? VE checks someone he knows is town and gets back a mafia check, you still think coag is town? I dont like limiting myself to three alternatives like that. I could make 10 more alternatives being "If this unclaimed/unreleaved role X works in this way, then this is true". That is when Im entering into far-fetched land as I said, but I dont like limiting myself either. But the fact that imo VE has been scummy like hell for a long time makes me start to question how far-fetched they really are. It is a bit weird that we dont have a rivalling PI claim should VE be scum, but a lot of other things are weird too. Hmm. Night kills are gonna be interesting at least though. | ||
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On October 11 2012 22:47 iamperfection wrote: ive been thinking on this. I dont think we can assume that private investigator is a town role. I think a mafia role cop is a possibility. Dudedudedudedudedudedude. This totally had me thinking. Look at this: + Show Spoiler + 1. iamperfection 2. 3. BloodyC0bbler 4. 5. 6. ShiaoPi 7. 8. Mattchew 9. risk.nuke 10. Coagulation 11. Z-BosoN 12. 13. Keirathi 14. 15. VisceraEyes 16. 17. slOosh 18. 19. 20. Kreb 21. Mementoss 22. 23. 24. 25. Set-up: And this: + Show Spoiler + Lucky Citizen Vigilante Concerned Citizen Enforcer Hitman Paramedic Private Investigator Medical Examiner Coroner Detective Godfather Paranoid Arsonist Scoreboard And look at VEs claim: On October 10 2012 06:28 VisceraEyes wrote: Well let me add...illusory weight to the Kush wagon. I'm a Private Investigator and last night I received Mafia Coroner when I checked kushm4sta. N1 I was roleblocked. N2 I checked Coag and he came back as town "Concerned Citizen". Now e'erybody climb onboard the VE Failtrain of Glory(holes). Is it possible VE added the prefix Mafia to an existing role (could be both town or mafia)? Theres no Mafia prefix on any role BM ever mentioned. If so, thats a pretty telling slip. | ||
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On October 11 2012 23:04 Mementoss wrote: What would the point of having private investigator and detective if private investigator is just a super detective. Stop assuming anything about the Detective really. Look at the Veteran. BM mixes up roles, most likely with the purpose to avoid these kind of assimptions. The Detective could be anything. | ||
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On October 11 2012 23:02 iamperfection wrote: well he did say that his role is a combination of a role and regular cop right? Ok true. Scratch that then. | ||
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Or wait a second again. If VEs role is a cop+rolecop, that means there must be a alignment+role Framer for Kush to have been Framed. Thats seems quite unlikely. Had Kush flipper Coroner it would have all made sense, but he flipped Vanilla Townie. It seems really unlikely theres a alignment+role Framer.... | ||
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And Im really starting to dislike how this thread gets like 2/3 of its posts while I sleep. | ||
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On October 12 2012 15:02 slOosh wrote: The heck? So VE's check on MMT clears MMT unless you take both as scum (unless scum can frame themselves?). That gives weight to 3rd party BC but we basically established that already. Can't really make sense of this until we get MMT post. Z-BosoN looks much better when he handled the pressure last night. Guy looks town. So as we wait for MMT, ##Vote: Mattchew It clears MMToss somewhat, because the only way he would be scum is if VE and MMToss is scum together (which might till be a possibility). VE might also be solo scum in that duo, just "throwing away" his night read on someone he already knew what role he was. The possibility of scum-MMT+town-VE is however extremely unlikely. | ||
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Why are you voting Mattchew without any motivation? I looked through your filter and you've been going after BC and ZB recently, but nothing I could find on Mattchew. | ||
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On October 12 2012 18:30 DarthPunk wrote: To be fair. That is not all that there is on me. You should read the cases by keirathi and Z-Boson and the stuff around when I thought Viscera Eyes had scum slipped. It is all reasonable fair. But I feel it revolves around changing my mind in reaction to new information and bad play etc. Obviously I don't feel there is anything that makes me scummy. But it would be unfair to say it is based on that 'slip'. It seemed to be enough for Shiao. He just seemed to read it and go "LOL SCUMSLIP DP IS SCUM". If anything, Shiao came out worse in my eyes because of that. I'll decide later when I have more time to read whether you're someone I'll consider voting for. | ||
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So, its a fair assumption there were 3 mafia left. With 14ppl alive pre-lynch, that makes it 10 town. 10-3. Lets say Kush was mafia. So they sac two (yea yea, I dont know that either) KPs presumably to gain a mislynch on VE. Even if we are to lynch VE next and he flips his Blue claim, that still means mafia is 9-2. However, they could just have let Kush flip red and kill two guys, making it 8-2 instead. And then they'd also have a chance to choose two targets of their own choice rather than just hoping for a VE mislynch. With 2 paramedics down and no other medic-claims or medic-save-claims, they should be fairly confident to get their 2 kills through. I dont buy it. If mafia sacced KP, they did it for something more powerful. Im thinking this might also be related to 3rd party somehow? Maybe 3rd party has some mad power which denies night kills. | ||
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But no, fuck that. Every time I or someone else tries to explain it in any other way it just turn into some really wierd assumptions that theres so far hidden roles doing this and that. No, mafia trading KP to flip Kush as town isnt likely No, a framer which both frames role and alignment isnt likely. The most probable explanation is right there in front of us, and that is that VE is scum. And thats even disregarding his previous scummyness he has shown a large part of this game. As for his claim, him being ballsy mafia is much more probable than the other explanations. I was planning on waiting and see what comes up on the Matt/DP/ZB/whoever else people might wanna vote for - front, but fuck that. ##Vote VisceraEyes | ||
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On October 12 2012 20:27 Mementoss wrote: The real mystery is. Why is no one dead? Oh shit. Scum believed BC claim of lucky citizen and targetted him again possible? That could be it. Or just targetted 3rd party in general, whoever it is. But we're still missing 1KP then. And I dont buy mafia not having 2. | ||
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On October 12 2012 20:32 risk.nuke wrote: That no one is dead is a pretty heavy indicator that either scum changed the flip at the cost of kp. or that vicera is pulling one on us. And are you gonna tell me that A) a wierd sac KP for flip change mechanic is present B) mafia decided to use it on Kush is more likely than VE just straight up being scum. Also, please to not that VE was the one starting this whole KP for flip change theory. | ||
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On October 12 2012 20:50 risk.nuke wrote: First you need to ask yourself - What does Vicera gain by doing this as scum? What has he gained by doing this as scum? So far the answer is: In the scenario that Vicera is scum so far they've gained nothing, which is why I'm not worried about it at the moment. @Menentoss. Luck doesn't excuse stupidity. Even if you disregard how awefull your nk guesses were. He gained a Kush mislynch? If he can gain another mislynch he'll be doing awesome. Though if talking about gain, also consider the fact that he might be 3rd party, at which point we dont know what he gains on doing stuff. | ||
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On October 12 2012 21:45 risk.nuke wrote: Kush mislynch. Yeah trade nightkills for a lynch on a suspicious useless townie. It's a game winner. The night kills have nothing to do with what I said. You're mixing things up. I said most likely explanation is simply VE lied about the Kush claim. No funny framer at work. No sacced KPs to change flip. The NKs are not a part of my "explanation". As for the NKs Im open to about anything. 3rd party being involved (either by scum hitting him or by him somehow preventing them from occuring) seems likely though. Or maybe some other saccing NK mechanic at work. Or, well, lots of other possibilities too which probably isnt worth speculating about. | ||
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On October 12 2012 22:06 risk.nuke wrote: In the scenario Vicera lied he is scum in which case he told the scum not to kill anyone so he can sell his claim. I don't see what I am mixing up? Whaaaaat? Why on earth would they do that? You're bringing up completely new explanations. Are you really suggesting mafia planned to just simply not kill anyone to have VE make a claim he could get away with? That makes no sense at all, theres tens of different ways they could just keep hiding while actually performing night kills. He should just not have claimed a mafia read on Kush then and they'd be all fine. Your idea is like the deepest plan ever..... it makes no sense. And funnily enough, even if it was true we should still lynch VE. | ||
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On October 13 2012 03:21 slOosh wrote: Initially thought Kreb was just someone who likes to setup spec, but there's mafia agenda in his play. Namely working things for a VE lynch. Regardless of what you may think of VE's alignment the way he goes about it is scummy. Here gives his opinion of Z-BosoN when he starts getting pressured (primarily by VE), and starts by saying his defense is terrible but by the end decides that he doesn't look that bad. After the kush flip he agrees with Z-BosoN against VE: He flips from "suspecting" ZB to agreeing with him in lynching VE, the guy whom ZB's defense was against. Along with a string of similar quotes, he pushes forth the idea that there are inordinate blues - but he does it in a way that casts doubt on the living blue claims VE and MMT. Notice how VE isn't suspicious because of his behavior now, but because of his claim (which seems "somewhat valid"). Stuff like this is indirect doubt on VE without actually saying it. 'if VE is rolecop+cop then there must be a alignment + role framer, but an alignment + role framer is really unlikely to exist, so ... (VE is a liar but I'm not gonna say it up front)' - kinda thing. It's only much later he finally commits to a vote even though it's the thing he has been talking about the whole time, and when grilled by risk, his reasoning is based on the premise that VE is scum and justifying / doing setup spec around this, opposed to drawing conclusions from the events. I'd be down with a Kreb lynch. First bolded part: Im not sure why you say Im suspecting ZB. I never said that, dotn put words in my mouth please. And quite frankly, even if I said towards the end "ZB look really scummy because of this and I have strong suspicions of him", what makes it so that I cant agree on points he make anyway? Second bolded part: LOL? Is your argument that Im trying to shift suspicions VEs way without committing myself? If anything, I've been pretty damn clear of my suspicions of VE whole game. If you want to hold that against me, fine (I've been questioning my own tunneling a fair bit tbh, so if you do the same thats natural). But you accuse me of doing the opposite? "indirect doubt on VE without actually saying it"? The fuck? Oh, and you're pretty damn right Im trying to cast doubts on VE. Thats because I have pretty big doubts of him and I want him lynched. If that wasnt clear Im not sure how I could make it clear. And how exactly has are my conclusions not based on events? Meanwhile, this is the second time you strangely try to start suspicions of people. First time on BC where you backed off very soon. This time your whole post seem to have been provoked by VE asking a broad question of what people think of me. Is that really the best you can do, cant you initiate any reads at all rather than jumping on other possibilities opening up? Oh, and you still havent said a word about why you voted Matt. Im waiting. | ||
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I dont see anything scummy with DP or ZB. ZB is explaining his reasoning well and is starting to look quite towning. DP is more towards null, but overall hes doing an ok job contributing and the so called scum slip is nothing Im gonna vote against him for. The three players I'm more interesting in (disregarding VE) are Sloosh, Shiao and Matt. All of those three as in somewhat of the same boat: People seem to expect them to be much more contributory than they are. But none of the are really active so its hard to get a strong scum read on any of them. I'd say Shiao and Sloosh looks somewhat worse than Matt through their actions though. Slooshes jump on both BC and me doesnt seem very genuine. And Shiao has had fairly lackluster scumhunting and reasoning behind his actions. Matt seems to be more purposedly not giving a fuck and not contributing, though that might not necessarily mean anything either way. | ||
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On October 13 2012 09:41 ShiaoPi wrote: okay just caught up with the thread. Looks like nobody eeems to care.that dp slipped...... Whats wrong with you guys? he blatantly fails to keep his story straight and you give him a freebie? dafuq what? He may appear townie to you but look at LVII it is quite similiar, while he did much better i think.he should be lynched. Wont be able to post much for the next 10~ hours but guye lynch the stupid slip and not the cop to confirm his alignment..... Wait. You caught up with the thread. And from all you read from VE/ZB/BC and others, you came to the conclusion that DPs possible-scum-slip was the biggest deal and the we should drop the current discussion and get down to work on this gem? Get real. Come on give us some comments on whats really happening. What about me? What of VE? Is BC right or full of shit? Enlighten us. | ||
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On October 13 2012 10:21 iamperfection wrote: .....BloodyC0bbler you accuse ve of not playing his role properly yet you yourself are the one that LIED causing the shit storm of what claims we should believe. Your lying showed you cared of one thing and one thing only your survival. You can die now 3rd party. We should of lynched you the second we found out about your lie it makes no sense from a town perspective. Your lying only pushed forward your interests of survival. ## Unvote ## Vote BloodyC0bbler O.o Wait, what? How did BCs lie cause MMToss or VE to claim? And what the shitstorm about it anyway, everyone is (supposedly) playing towards their wincon, Town by rightfully claiming Town, scum by making false claims. Shitstorm? Elaborate please. | ||
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On October 13 2012 10:29 iamperfection wrote: Ve claimed he was a veteran but first he claimed medic protection. He lied kill him. Its not optimal play no matter what he says it just leads to confusion. Why should i believe anything BloodyC0bbler say in relation to anything. And i didnt say it caused somebody to claim i said it just adds to confusion because his lie causes confusion with relation to other players claims. I must say I dont really see the confusing part. He lied for a reason that to me makes sense from a town perspective. And no, you shouldnt believe him if you're sure hes 3rd party. But I cant discern how you are so sure about that. What if he actually IS veteran? Doesnt all make sense then? | ||
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On October 13 2012 10:38 iamperfection wrote: of course im not 100% sure stop playing stupid word games. I was under the impression that gambits like this were bad. Why would he need to lie if was town? just so the mafia wont shoot again. give me a break a town member should not worry about whether he lives or dies. This is going into some kind of game-theory-land now: But if you believe yourself to be an above average player of your team, you SHOULD want to sac other members of your team before yourself if thats what it comes down to. So caring about his own survival doesnt have to be anti-town, it can be very much pro-town. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
Im not used to be awake when all the action happens. ;( | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
First part: There is no point of calling someone's defense incredibly weak if you think they are town - it only serves to cast doubt on said player's alignment. If you truly suspect someone as scum you would put less trust in what they say because of scum agenda influencing their posts. I can certainly see the points. It puts pressure on them should it be scum, it updates the other town players on my thoughts. It might give other town players a reason to chip in themselves if they've seen something similar themselves somewhere else. And of course you read and try to process what even your strongest scum reads have to say. Thats how people drop out of peoples scum read list. If you just decide on the stance that someone is scum and then read all he has to say from the purpose of "he is lying" that terrible scumhunting. You should know that. Second part: I don't know which one but it's from Ace's mafia strategy guide. Scum plant ideas into town so they present it as their own, making it difficult to trace back the origin. Doesn't matter if you claim your stance on him was clear from the start. If you really thought him scum through and through you don't concede that the claims seem valid. Scum can't make valid claims. And thats your whole case on me. "Kreb is actually reading and processing what VE has to say, if he truly believed VE was scum he should not listen to VE at all and just go all out". You're blaming me for considering VE might be town. That i express that theres part of his play which seems town. Thats like the worse reasoning ever. And even if you truly believe one should never listen and never try to process your top scum reads posts from a town perspective (god I hope you dont truly believe that), then I humbly disagree. And I am not going to stop that. As for a deeper explanation of said post. I think I've made it quite clear I've been suspicious of VE all game. I also think I've made it clear to question that tunneling (because, you know, thats what proper town players should). And I also questioned the fact that there were 4 revealed blues and 3 more claims, which seem like an awful lot of blues. That post was made in that period. Hell I had the wierdest explanations going on in my head how either of these three could be scum. I was totally on to the fact that there could be a "mafia role power inspector" somewhere making mafia know what Blue roles there are, making it possible for BC to claim Lucky citizen/veteran and VE to claim PI without counterclaims from the real PI/LC. But in the end, every single idea just came down to this: Actually, I keep having this voice in the back of my head telling me I shouldnt kinda tunnel VE like Im doing. That its clouding my judgement for the other players. But I cant really see anything on anyone else being equally or more scummy. And I have tried to find reasons as to how he could truly be his PI claim. But no, fuck that. Every time I or someone else tries to explain it in any other way it just turn into some really wierd assumptions that theres so far hidden roles doing this and that. No, mafia trading KP to flip Kush as town isnt likely No, a framer which both frames role and alignment isnt likely. The most probable explanation is right there in front of us, and that is that VE is scum. And thats even disregarding his previous scummyness he has shown a large part of this game. As for his claim, him being ballsy mafia is much more probable than the other explanations. I was planning on waiting and see what comes up on the Matt/DP/ZB/whoever else people might wanna vote for - front, but fuck that. ##Vote VisceraEyes That the easiest damn solution has always been right in front of me. And this post is when I went from "I wonder in what ways VE could not be scum" into "fuck this, VE is too damn fucking scummy, the other explanations doesnt make sense". | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
Reference: + Show Spoiler + On October 09 2012 08:23 Kreb wrote: Ok, time to post something before the night kills as I promised. Here are the reason I will most likely be voting VE next day if I'm alive. Also note that a lot of these things have already been posted, but with all the different tells which have been posted throughout the thread its probably a good idea to bunch them together somewhere. 1) The Node wagon. This post: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today. I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin. is the most scummy thing about it. 1a) He only says he read through austins filters, but he very nicely avoids posting what he found in it. Instead he refers to "the two walls of his" as if that somehow makes everything 100% clear. He still, as of today, has not explained why he changed. 1b) His extremely weak (on unexisting) reason to switch to Node. Someone (who people seem to regard a very strong player) should not change that easily to such a weak case it was. 2) Refusing to answer to said cases and other quetions I just know what I asked him stuff myself, like this: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 19:54 Kreb wrote: @VE Three lines of text, three questions: 1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this: Has this changed? If so, why? 2) Why do you like austin? 3) Why do you dislike Mattchew? And he also refused to comment at all on my other accusations. To my knowledge he still hasnt said a word on the Node wagon yet. 3) The way he targetted annul 3a) His targetting D1 actually seemed to have a bit of reason behind it, but right after the Shady mislynch he says this: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote: That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part. The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Once again, no explanation. Just straight up calling annul scum. It goes on for a while and the only legitimate reason I could see for his targetting of annul was the fact that annul suggested a vote switch (to ZBoson i think) very close to the deadline even though he had questioned vote switching before. While I did agree on that particular point against annul, that alone did in no way motivate the way VE attacked him. Also, it seemed like that reason only was revealed a bit after he had already started attacking annul, like he found about it later. A proper townie would have explained first and targetted after. 3b) Also he tried to paint annul as some really crafty mafia so the rest of us would be suspicious of him too, even though there wasnt as much to be suspicious of. mkfuba made a good case on that part: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 23:51 mkfuba07 wrote: Alright, I'm going to be getting a bit more rest since I woke up for Code S. Current thoughts: I could definitely see VE being scum. His unfortunate scumhunting is a big piece of the puzzle, but his interaction with annul keeps nagging at me. It took me a while to figure out why I was so annoyed by these posts, but I think I've figured it out. VE first emphasizes that as scum annul can become "scary" (which I assume means that he can appear to become a good contributor, though VE never actually says how annul becomes "scary"), but leaves out the fact that he might do the same exact thing as town. It doesn't feel like VE is trying to inform the town of annul's apparent meta, as much as emphasize the scummy aspects of annul's meta and attribute it entirely to scum-annul. It would feel the same way if marv came in and said that I can be incredibly wishy-washy as scum. He's emphasized in previous games that I am the master of wishy-washiness regardless of alignment (though I've only ever been scum once, for little over a day). If he were to come into this game and try to convince everyone that I'm only wishy-washy when I'm scum, then I would be incredibly suspicious of him (In fact, I believe that's part of why he avoided talking about me at all despite my case being in the same post as the Node one). In VE's case, it looks like he tried to do a similar thing, and then when annul called him out on it he tried to minimize the effect. Why say that scum-annul can be "scary" if town-annul can also be "scary" unless you're trying to make vigis take the shot without a proper reason? It seems like a pretty scummy interaction from VE. I'd really like to hear thoughts from others, as this is the first thing I feel pretty confident about this game. Finally, I'm still waiting on input from mementoss... I know that 15 pages is a lot to go through, but I'm not going to put him aside just because one of the people who was calling him out is going to flip scum. There are other lurkers, but he's promised more contributions twice now, and we've seen nothing from it. 4) Meta reads This isnt something I can really confirm but I'll add it since it makes sence because of how many peopel have expressed them. Talismania started off by calling his meta scummy early D1. That kinda died off (probably for a good reason), but since then a lot of people have commented on how VE as town is MUCH more active, sometimes/often (?) something of a town leader and being much more contributory than how he is this game. 5) Extremely scummy (or bad if he really is town) scumhunting Already posted about this, here: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 21:33 Kreb wrote: Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?). He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on: 1) 2 confirmed town flips. 2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip. 3) After dropping annul, posting this while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town. 4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though. 5) Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it). 6) Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town. He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm. 6) His post-marv-revelation behavior 6a) After having had many people saying they were suspicious of him post Marvs revelation, how did he reply? He replied with some wierd extreme confidence. Look here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 08:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Please, by all means. Bring it on. I haven't done anything wrong except be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm scum. It means I'm bad at the game. At least 75% of the players in this game knew that already. :/ Here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 09:32 VisceraEyes wrote: When you line it all up like that it makes it easy to see how laughable the case against me is. Thank you kush. Seriously, I was starting to worry until you did that. And here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote: On October 04 2012 09:37 kushm4sta wrote: You said you were going to read through the thread again so you could figure things out. Instead of making a case against someone you just sit in the thread wise cracking? Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking. Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch. Im not sure why scum would really wanna do that, but its 100% not towny to do. Compare to DPs case on Keirathi for example, or the french dudes on Shiao. No matter whether you like the cases or not, both Kei and Shiao were properly there to respond to the cases like a town should. VE did something completely different. Also note how he never really commented on this afterwards either, but rather seems to be banking on it being forgotten. To me, it seems more likely he "gave up" or "lost interest" (someone already pointed that out, I think it was Coag, and VE rejected it) due to the percieved OPness/sillyness of the Paramedic role. He probably intented some kind of agressive/confident defense initally, but then just didnt care about it enough. 6b) Also note how he went trollmode with marv for a while (towny thing to do? hell no.) Its quite clear he enjoys playing with marv, which further strengthens the belief that he lost interest/gave up when Marv got caught in such a silly way. 7) Marvs motive behind his discussion with me Ok, this is a new point, but I saved maybe the best for last. Lets look again at the context of Marvs behaviour of my case. First, lets look at what I wrote: Later I also kinda halfassed bunched Kush into my group of scummy people. So what do we know now: - Node is scum (I was wrong) - Austin was twon (I was wrong) - Marv is scum (I was right) Now, lets for a moment assume both VE and Kush are town. And with that assumption in mind, lets look at what Marv had to say about my case: Later turning into: Now, specifically note how he is targetting me. Not the part of my case directed to him, but me (and my case) as a whole. Now, why would you want to do that if I only were right about Marv being scummy!!?? Why would he react like that if I was wrong about Node, Austin, VE and Kush?!!? Theres absolutely no reason to. The aggressiveness of his defense clearly tells me I was onto something more than just him. If he was the only thing I had right in my post, theres several other much better approaches he couldve used to abuse my mis-reads. He could have agreed on it, admitting it was wierd (which likely would have had me going straight after VE), knowing that there was a very high chance I'd go after a town. But he didnt. He could have defended himself alone, citing town reads on VE as reason why he followed him. He didnt. He could have not said anything at all, hoping it would turn into a austin or VE lynch. He didnt. Instead he decided to go and agressively discredit me and as such my whole case. And I just cant see why he would do that if the only thing I predicted right was Marvs scummyness. I think I must have hit something more to motivate this response. And while it could possible be Kush, I think VE is the most likely person. Or hell, maybe even both. Bonus point + Show Spoiler + This is definitely confirmation bias if I somehow would be wrong about all this, but out of all replies to the mkfuba/hapa thing, this still stood out to me: [B]On October 06 2012 21:10 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: Hapa Twice in one game. Damn fine work guys. Sick crumb fuba. Really? Is that geniune happiness or irony and bitterness? That is BEFORE this whole Kush claim shenanigans. That is primarily from day1+night1. And since then, the amount of scum-reads on VE HAS INCREASED STEADILY. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
Read that post of mine: + Show Spoiler + On October 09 2012 08:23 Kreb wrote: Ok, time to post something before the night kills as I promised. Here are the reason I will most likely be voting VE next day if I'm alive. Also note that a lot of these things have already been posted, but with all the different tells which have been posted throughout the thread its probably a good idea to bunch them together somewhere. 1) The Node wagon. This post: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today. I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin. is the most scummy thing about it. 1a) He only says he read through austins filters, but he very nicely avoids posting what he found in it. Instead he refers to "the two walls of his" as if that somehow makes everything 100% clear. He still, as of today, has not explained why he changed. 1b) His extremely weak (on unexisting) reason to switch to Node. Someone (who people seem to regard a very strong player) should not change that easily to such a weak case it was. 2) Refusing to answer to said cases and other quetions I just know what I asked him stuff myself, like this: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 19:54 Kreb wrote: @VE Three lines of text, three questions: 1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this: Has this changed? If so, why? 2) Why do you like austin? 3) Why do you dislike Mattchew? And he also refused to comment at all on my other accusations. To my knowledge he still hasnt said a word on the Node wagon yet. 3) The way he targetted annul 3a) His targetting D1 actually seemed to have a bit of reason behind it, but right after the Shady mislynch he says this: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote: That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part. The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Once again, no explanation. Just straight up calling annul scum. It goes on for a while and the only legitimate reason I could see for his targetting of annul was the fact that annul suggested a vote switch (to ZBoson i think) very close to the deadline even though he had questioned vote switching before. While I did agree on that particular point against annul, that alone did in no way motivate the way VE attacked him. Also, it seemed like that reason only was revealed a bit after he had already started attacking annul, like he found about it later. A proper townie would have explained first and targetted after. 3b) Also he tried to paint annul as some really crafty mafia so the rest of us would be suspicious of him too, even though there wasnt as much to be suspicious of. mkfuba made a good case on that part: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 23:51 mkfuba07 wrote: Alright, I'm going to be getting a bit more rest since I woke up for Code S. Current thoughts: I could definitely see VE being scum. His unfortunate scumhunting is a big piece of the puzzle, but his interaction with annul keeps nagging at me. It took me a while to figure out why I was so annoyed by these posts, but I think I've figured it out. VE first emphasizes that as scum annul can become "scary" (which I assume means that he can appear to become a good contributor, though VE never actually says how annul becomes "scary"), but leaves out the fact that he might do the same exact thing as town. It doesn't feel like VE is trying to inform the town of annul's apparent meta, as much as emphasize the scummy aspects of annul's meta and attribute it entirely to scum-annul. It would feel the same way if marv came in and said that I can be incredibly wishy-washy as scum. He's emphasized in previous games that I am the master of wishy-washiness regardless of alignment (though I've only ever been scum once, for little over a day). If he were to come into this game and try to convince everyone that I'm only wishy-washy when I'm scum, then I would be incredibly suspicious of him (In fact, I believe that's part of why he avoided talking about me at all despite my case being in the same post as the Node one). In VE's case, it looks like he tried to do a similar thing, and then when annul called him out on it he tried to minimize the effect. Why say that scum-annul can be "scary" if town-annul can also be "scary" unless you're trying to make vigis take the shot without a proper reason? It seems like a pretty scummy interaction from VE. I'd really like to hear thoughts from others, as this is the first thing I feel pretty confident about this game. Finally, I'm still waiting on input from mementoss... I know that 15 pages is a lot to go through, but I'm not going to put him aside just because one of the people who was calling him out is going to flip scum. There are other lurkers, but he's promised more contributions twice now, and we've seen nothing from it. 4) Meta reads This isnt something I can really confirm but I'll add it since it makes sence because of how many peopel have expressed them. Talismania started off by calling his meta scummy early D1. That kinda died off (probably for a good reason), but since then a lot of people have commented on how VE as town is MUCH more active, sometimes/often (?) something of a town leader and being much more contributory than how he is this game. 5) Extremely scummy (or bad if he really is town) scumhunting Already posted about this, here: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 21:33 Kreb wrote: Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?). He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on: 1) 2 confirmed town flips. 2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip. 3) After dropping annul, posting this while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town. 4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though. 5) Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it). 6) Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town. He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm. 6) His post-marv-revelation behavior 6a) After having had many people saying they were suspicious of him post Marvs revelation, how did he reply? He replied with some wierd extreme confidence. Look here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 08:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Please, by all means. Bring it on. I haven't done anything wrong except be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm scum. It means I'm bad at the game. At least 75% of the players in this game knew that already. :/ Here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 09:32 VisceraEyes wrote: When you line it all up like that it makes it easy to see how laughable the case against me is. Thank you kush. Seriously, I was starting to worry until you did that. And here: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2012 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote: On October 04 2012 09:37 kushm4sta wrote: You said you were going to read through the thread again so you could figure things out. Instead of making a case against someone you just sit in the thread wise cracking? Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking. Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch. Im not sure why scum would really wanna do that, but its 100% not towny to do. Compare to DPs case on Keirathi for example, or the french dudes on Shiao. No matter whether you like the cases or not, both Kei and Shiao were properly there to respond to the cases like a town should. VE did something completely different. Also note how he never really commented on this afterwards either, but rather seems to be banking on it being forgotten. To me, it seems more likely he "gave up" or "lost interest" (someone already pointed that out, I think it was Coag, and VE rejected it) due to the percieved OPness/sillyness of the Paramedic role. He probably intented some kind of agressive/confident defense initally, but then just didnt care about it enough. 6b) Also note how he went trollmode with marv for a while (towny thing to do? hell no.) Its quite clear he enjoys playing with marv, which further strengthens the belief that he lost interest/gave up when Marv got caught in such a silly way. 7) Marvs motive behind his discussion with me Ok, this is a new point, but I saved maybe the best for last. Lets look again at the context of Marvs behaviour of my case. First, lets look at what I wrote: Later I also kinda halfassed bunched Kush into my group of scummy people. So what do we know now: - Node is scum (I was wrong) - Austin was twon (I was wrong) - Marv is scum (I was right) Now, lets for a moment assume both VE and Kush are town. And with that assumption in mind, lets look at what Marv had to say about my case: Later turning into: Now, specifically note how he is targetting me. Not the part of my case directed to him, but me (and my case) as a whole. Now, why would you want to do that if I only were right about Marv being scummy!!?? Why would he react like that if I was wrong about Node, Austin, VE and Kush?!!? Theres absolutely no reason to. The aggressiveness of his defense clearly tells me I was onto something more than just him. If he was the only thing I had right in my post, theres several other much better approaches he couldve used to abuse my mis-reads. He could have agreed on it, admitting it was wierd (which likely would have had me going straight after VE), knowing that there was a very high chance I'd go after a town. But he didnt. He could have defended himself alone, citing town reads on VE as reason why he followed him. He didnt. He could have not said anything at all, hoping it would turn into a austin or VE lynch. He didnt. Instead he decided to go and agressively discredit me and as such my whole case. And I just cant see why he would do that if the only thing I predicted right was Marvs scummyness. I think I must have hit something more to motivate this response. And while it could possible be Kush, I think VE is the most likely person. Or hell, maybe even both. Bonus point + Show Spoiler + This is definitely confirmation bias if I somehow would be wrong about all this, but out of all replies to the mkfuba/hapa thing, this still stood out to me: On October 06 2012 21:10 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: Hapa Twice in one game. Damn fine work guys. Sick crumb fuba. Really? Is that geniune happiness or irony and bitterness? And then read his "defense": [B]On October 09 2012 08:37 VisceraEyes wrote: That whole case has 4 quotes from me, and you didn't comment on any of them. However, you've quoted marv extensively and even yourself a couple of times, with plenty of comment on those posts. As such, there's nothing for me to respond to. Have a nice day Kreb. Pretty solid defense adressing all my points, eh? | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
Im glad you brought it up. VE trying to get votes going on me on Day5 due to a new meta read from my first game ever where he presumes things happening. Im totally proud of myself thats the best you could find. Thank you, you made me all warm and fuzzy inside there VE. Rererence: + Show Spoiler + On October 13 2012 08:39 VisceraEyes wrote: This is town Kreb. 4 pages of filter in 2 game days, and he was then night-killed. Presumably for being too townie. This game hasn't been like...intimidating at all - we've had 2 scums handed to us on a silver platter and the following lynch, my red check, was pretty much automatic too. Yet, in spite of this, Kreb has had nothing substantial to contribute except hopping on bandwagons and (more recently) tunneling me like he's got a sure thing. ##Vote: Kreb | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 13 2012 22:29 Mementoss wrote: also why is everyone voting kreb too Because - I used the word interesting (HOW COULD A TOWN SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THIS GAME TO BE INTERESTING!?!??!?!?!) - My post density was different during my very first noob game - I didnt blindly 100% tunnel VE but rather considered what he was saying | ||
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Kreb
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On October 14 2012 01:59 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't understand the point of this post. My point was that in the game I linked, Kreb is very obviously town...there's no question in reading the filter that it's a townie's filter. In this game, he's hiding behind tunneling me to avoid doing anything. In the game I posted he had 4 pages by N2 - in this game by the time I posted this, he had 5 pages by D4. It's like - it's terribly damning imo. You mean damning like....like.....like...... like Talis activity tell on you!? :O On October 02 2012 05:35 VisceraEyes wrote: talis stfu about my "activity tell" and tell me what you think of the content of my posts please. You haven't commented on anything I've said - only said you don't like how much I've said. I know how you work bro, take that tinfoil had off and think for a minute. | ||
Kreb
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Kreb
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Kreb
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 12 2012 09:34 DarthPunk wrote: I believe that VE is a cop of some description. Claiming to trade one for one with Kush of all people is just silly. Especially after Scum lost Marv and Hapa consecutively. What you are suggesting is that after scum lost two members the rest of them decide that VisceraEyes known to be a good scum player should fake claim cop with a green check on kush. I find that scenario INCREDIBLY unlikely. Sanity is certainly in question. AS is the possibility of a framer or something similar. But we should not be lynching VE right now. I find it very interesting that Z - Boson has dropped his pressure of me. Despite what he 'foresaw' (despite thinking it was highly unlikely) in his case coming true. I want to lynch Z - Boson. He clearly tried to entrap me with a green kush flip and his case relied upon this. Despite his vote for kush and stating kush was 75% red. He also stopped the lynch of scum day one by throwing away his vote. Even though he says he wasnted neither to get lynched. What he was actually doing, and every thinking rational individual would know this, was lynching shady and saving scum. His 'I thought neither was scum so voted for neither' Is silly as it was clear that his actions would cause a shady lynch. And save node. What he actually did with his vote was: I prefer shady to be lynched rather than node. That is Scummy. Combine it with trying to entrap me with clear foreknowledge of kush's flip Despite calling him red and voting for him. he expressed doubt over kush;s alignment. And instead of attempting to lynch someone else like the others who doubted the claim. He used his doubt to set up a further mislynch Z- Boson is scum and must be lynched. Seems well motivated enough. At least nothing I'd vote on him for atm. ZB also came out as town. But Im totally not liking the current situation with like 5 (?) ppl sitting on 1-2 votes. And to me Shiao, Matt and Sloosh all look kinda scummy but none of them like super scummy. We could be hitting everything if we randomly shoot into that trio... Scum, Town or 3rd party. The thing is, mafia will likely not allow a wagon to start on the likely 1-2 mafia in there unless town really gets together.... | ||
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On October 14 2012 08:24 VisceraEyes wrote: He accused ZBos of "attempting to entrap [DarthPunk] with clear foreknowledge of Kush's flip" when he himself was CERTAIN of Kush's guilt and was among the few voteswitching at the end of the day. You don't find that the least bit ODD Kreb? It's even bolded in the quote you posted... A little bit odd, yea. And you mean DP was certain of Kush not being guildy right? But I really dont feel like lynching into people making one or two scummy looking moves when others have been scummy all game (you actively scummy, the three others I mentioned passively scummy by just not really doing shit). Well, Im not completely against a DP lynch, but its a shot in the dark imo and he is at best like my 3rd-5th most favored target. | ||
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Can everyone who hasnt voted yet please throw out your votes on your top scum reads? Please. | ||
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Couple that with: On October 14 2012 04:31 Mattchew wrote: also, if someone links me to a newbie game (VE you did this too WTF) for a meta read you have got to be kidding. I would say anyone under like 7 - 10 games should never be lynched on meta because there is so much room to improve and change styles Which is likely directed at me. And since I know Im town, a scum should have little reason to do this. Heavily leaning towards a Shiao vote here if I am to switch. | ||
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On October 14 2012 10:51 Coagulation wrote: ermmm... What the fuck would a no lynch do for us? There little reason to discuss that atm. You know he knows there will be no no-lynch. Stop insinuating that and focus on the real issue at hand: the lynch. | ||
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Not atm no. But I cant say I've thought it through much either. Theres probably ways you can be scum, but that very much an uninteresting topic atm since you wont be lynched. | ||
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On October 14 2012 10:57 BloodyC0bbler wrote: How is it sudden resistance? To my understanding Shiao was not really ever on the docket until what? an hour or two ago, tops of 3? Meanwhile you have a player like mattchew who has been on near universally everyones scumlist at some point through this game. Why is a player who has been so apathetic and unhelpful, who isn't even playing in the interests of the town getting a free pass repeatedly? The entire shiao wagon looks like its designed to keep mattchew alive another day which I have no clue as to why. Its sudden because..... it happened right after the votes went down? Though its definitely a possibility its a designed wagon. | ||
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On October 14 2012 11:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Given how close it is to lynch deadline, when else would it happen? If people waited till just before deadline it would look insanely weird. Given the Shiaopi lynch is a very late choice in the day, it should be getting all resistance to it early. Theres been surprisingly little activity last hours. That tells me mafia was fine with the situation at hand. | ||
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On October 14 2012 11:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Or people weren't around to talk. Any way you look at it you can find reasons to dislike mattchew, and dislike shiaopi. The obvious difference to me which seperates the two is one has actively said he doesn't care, promised to do things that he doesn't follow through on and attempts to be active while never being around to leave his mark on the thread. These are all scum characteristics and everytime he is mentioned as a possible lynch case it suddenly gets pushed aside for other reasons, or people just stop discussing it and move to different things. Look at the last game where BM, and Grush were left alive in a lylo situation and how by not being around 1 townie lost the game. I honestly can say I don't ever want to see a repeat of that. Most of what you say about Matt can be said about both BM and Grush last game too, and they were both town. People seemed to think BM was some kind of vet player but he was awful in my opinion. I have no problem putting Matt in the same category. However, you arguing strongly for this one means something too because I very much trust you to be town. And as someone pointed out, I dont like voting for the same target as VE does. Im not gonna switch to either of Matt/Shiao yet, but at least the recent discussion is giving me new info on it. | ||
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On October 14 2012 11:27 Z-BosoN wrote: atm I want to lynch him tomorrow. The lack of kp and the fact that he is acting extremely weird today gives room the possibility that VE actually wants to get lynched, and thus confirm mementoss and BC as town, which is what keirathi is going nuts about above, and something in which I actually consider to be a real possibility. If he wants to get lynched as town, why wouldnt he say it out load? | ||
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Im flip flopping around quite a lot right now. Trying to consider everything since the VE lynch doesnt seem to take off. Strongly believe you to be scum? No. But right now my biggest scum read is voting ShiaoPi and two people making the wierdest cases on me are voting Matt. Matt however at least said something I can relate to as townish. On the other hand, BC who I consider to look very much town is heavily favoring Matt. Meanwhile, people are popping up with votes your way too. And your jump on VE doesnt seem completely geniune either considering you've had days of time to join me on that wagon. Im still open to all these three + staying on VE. Can you blame me for flip flopping around? I've already come to terms with that I'll be called scummy by some people no matter who I vote for so thats no problem. | ||
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On October 14 2012 11:54 DarthPunk wrote: No. Wtf? you should vote for who out of matt/shiao you think is more likely to be scum. What did I say which contradicted this? Of course Im heavily considering Matt/Shiao atm? | ||
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On October 14 2012 11:57 DarthPunk wrote: I meant wtf? as in why would you ask someone you just considered scum to make up your mind for you? Dude, you need to quote better. Where did I ask anything in that quote? I dont get what you're trying to say. On October 14 2012 11:52 Kreb wrote: I agree I should. And I will most likely unvote VE. Wanna make up my mind on who to switch for though. Wheres the question? Theres no question there. | ||
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##Unvote VisceraEyes ##Vote Mattchew | ||
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On October 14 2012 12:09 iamperfection wrote: who are the players you consider more trustable? whatever the fuck that means Mainly ZB, BC and risk. Oh, and trustworthy not trustable. Language error :< | ||
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On October 14 2012 14:40 Z-BosoN wrote: Is there a possibility that kush was actually scum and that mafia now have only one KP? The only way that would be true is if Kush was the extra killer himself. Him alone giving mafia 1KP per night. Otherwise I dont see how it can explain all the other 2NK-nights. | ||
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On October 14 2012 13:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote: GG everyone. VE is a confirmed PI, and mementoss confirmed power role. Neither are confirmed as town, but it is likely both are given they were both passively roleblocked by me. Coag is likely town as well. Sloosh is scum, as is one of DP or shiaopi. Sorry I couldn't be more help, but well, tis not my objective. And with that I am pretty sure the day is over. Good luck town, mafia dont deserve to win. I dont get it. Nowhere in the hitman role PM does it say he has the power to role block? While it would explain the roleblocks nicely, isnt that supposed to be specified? | ||
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On October 15 2012 00:41 Coagulation wrote: I cant imagine BC would lie to us. He doesnt seem like hes intending to lie. And him being the roleblocker would make sense because we've only got two claims. But night immune 3rd party + roleblocker when its not in the PM doesnt make sense either.... | ||
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On October 15 2012 02:12 Mementoss wrote: I would say, sloosh shiao or risknuke Kreb seems like a whilecard to me. Not sure about him. Why risknuke? Havent seen anyone target him really. | ||
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Lets 1v1 VE? Im all in. ##Vote VisceraEyes | ||
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On October 16 2012 00:05 Z-BosoN wrote: Anyways, activity is getting low, come on guys, we really need to be active now that we are in mylo. Well, we have 3 mafia who are fine with no talk, 1 useless townie, 2 more afk/semiafk/semiuselss townies, what do you expect? Mafia is waiting to see where your discussion go so they know if to support it, fight it or if its strong enough to require a bus. | ||
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On October 16 2012 03:45 VisceraEyes wrote: lawl Sit down son Im like fun-firmed town. You bound to lose. You're not a loser, are you son? Put your vote down then. Stop waiting for ZB/iamp. Play ball. | ||
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And yes, I betray my mindset. That on purpose (which you obviously realized). Its not like my normal mindset worked anyway. So what do I have to lose? And come on, you got your three mafia votes and your pet townie vote, thats 4. At least put down one of two on me to get this rolling. | ||
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On October 16 2012 05:03 iamperfection wrote: ............................................................ Dont you think its funny how they're not dropping votes on me? What does that tell you? You think they totally got a town read on me last ~16h since night kills? | ||
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Still, as expected. The mafia still waiting. | ||
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Mafia lurking, waiting on a decision what to do. Coag however, who isnt Mafia but is doing their work is the only one confident enough to put down the vote on me, because he isnt a part oh the discussion on how to handle the situation. Thankfully, this time he is doing MY work, since hes helping me towards the 1v1. | ||
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On October 16 2012 05:40 Kreb wrote: Thankfully, this time he is doing MY work, since hes helping me towards the 1v1. That would be the irony Coag. | ||
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And if thats not enough, surely Im scum if I've pushed that all game. Vote me instead then. | ||
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On October 16 2012 07:17 iamperfection wrote: who is scum besides ve in your view? Two people who still hasnt said shit since this day started. One of them is about 99% scum. The 2nd one im a bit more uncertain of. But today we're lynching the 100% scum VE or we go down in grand fashion by lynching me. | ||
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You two already proved you're both town. The way you want me get over with this proves it even more. However look at the massive lurkyness of the rest. They're waiting, or being afk. They want me to spit out the normal cases of "oh look at this quote here and how scummy this is looking" and then we're back in the normal loop. Or they want the rest of us to jump on other targets like Shiao and Sloosh so they can react accordingly (support it, fight it, or bus it). I want DP (hey why are you so inactive suddenly?) risk (you're also sudden inactive) Shiao (ok, you're always inactive) Sloosh (sup? What happened to your scum read on me?) reactions. I'll spill something before I go to sleep. Max 1h or so. | ||
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On October 13 2012 14:06 Keirathi wrote: (you [VE] seem to be trying REALLY hard today to get lynched) There was also the newb mafia meta read on me. If you dont trust me on it, trust town Mattchew who called him out on it. VE is playing reckless on purpose because a red flip from him was supposed to point us towards other targets (you, for example) than his real scum buddies. More? I'm a Blue role. Good night. | ||
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I believe its time to stop the charade. The bad part about this timing is that a lot of you NAers probably will be asleep by now, but it will have to do. Some information was at garnered from last yesterdays (IRL-yesterday) play, such as Coag and Iamp being town. Anyway, Im a Lucky Citizen. To be honest I would have been forced to reveal that sooner or later anyway due to the pressure on me. Rather than doing it in a defensive fashion because scum would push me anyway I felt the need to shake things up a bit, at least I got two clear town reads from it, not perfect but not fruitless. Also, the inactiveness of a few people was alarming, I was hoping to get a little more out of it but as always there were afk-town in there to fuck it up. Probably mafia will move away from me to a secondary target now which they used the time to decide on, or they'll just wait again. Post game stuff: + Show Spoiler + The fuck is up with that 3rd party lol? Night immune, some kind of role blocker while also knowing about the power of random Town roles so they can claim accordingly? Rofl? What kind of superman-role is that? | ||
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On October 16 2012 07:25 Kreb wrote: Two people who still hasnt said shit since this day started. One of them is about 99% scum. The 2nd one im a bit more uncertain of. But today we're lynching the 100% scum VE or we go down in grand fashion by lynching me. And that is Sloosh. Not much was garnered on that part except for their whole god damn filter where they barely even touch each other (Y U NO OPINION ON VE SLOOSH!?!?). Got this at least: On October 16 2012 06:47 VisceraEyes wrote: Coag why DID you mention slOosh in response to my question? He hasn't even commented on myself OR Kreb today. What is the reasoning you think slOosh is scum Coag? | ||
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On October 16 2012 04:18 Kreb wrote: And come on, you got your three mafia votes and your pet townie vote, thats 4. At least put down one of two on me to get this rolling. Oh yea and that was Coag I was referring to (before he put down his vote). He confirmed himself as it. | ||
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On October 16 2012 06:25 Coagulation wrote: kreb and sloosh VE reaction to Coag opening up Sloosh as an option: On October 16 2012 06:47 VisceraEyes wrote: Coag why DID you mention slOosh in response to my question? He hasn't even commented on myself OR Kreb today. What is the reasoning you think slOosh is scum Coag? But here? On October 16 2012 08:12 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm concerned about iamperfection. His lack of reading regarding DP raised a flag. VE reaction to ZB opening up Iamp as an option: .... .... .... Trying to keep a firm leash on your townie friend? | ||
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Theres also a possibility VE has investigated me and started to focus on me because it would require 2 KP to get rid of, as opposed to 1 lynch. But yea thats speculation. Sloosh is the only one Im ever gonna even consider switching vote to. Otherwise Im staying put. | ||
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On October 16 2012 19:23 DarthPunk wrote: I see many of you group me with a bunch of people as potential scum. Do you have any evidence or a case on why this is so? I think it would be better for town that, instead of lumping several people in as scummy, you actually decide on your top scum read and build a solid case on them. Kreb are you now back flipping on VE? do you believe VE is scum? Do you have a breadcrumb to support your Vet claim? Those names arent relevant atm. We got two other lynches to do first. You can regard it as me saying "Iamp, ZB, Coag is town. VE Sloosh is scum". Rest is just, yea, you three. Which Im still unsure of. And unless theres 6 mafia or something else stupid, only one of you three are mafia. And Im not back flipping VE. Hes scum. The discussion should be about whether we wanna remove the scum Investigator or whatever Sloosh is. And to me the answer is the investigator. But if someone can come up with a reasonable argument for Sloosh Im not 100% against it. Im 100% against all others. And Im not sure how reasonable it is to crumb Vet, its not like I've been doing anything during the nights. But to answer your question: no I havent. | ||
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Feel free to share your overall reads though. I'd be interested in that. I put 3 as town, 2 as scum, 3 as unsure. Who would you put as town/scum/unsure? | ||
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On October 16 2012 20:17 ShiaoPi wrote: @Kreb: I had you as a pretty sure townread before, but that 1on1 stunt looked incredibly stupid and scummy. Also what makes you so sure on your scumread of VE? (Besides the fact that he is a claimed cop who is still alive this long) Also a vetclaim is like one of the easiest things to fake since you lack nightactions which can backup your claim. Geez, are you gonna pull a Sloosh and imply I havent been clear about VE but rather throw indirect accusations? How on earth am I supposed to be clear then? Have you even read my filter? We got people accusing me of tunneling over here and you're asking for my reads? But I will recap, just for you! - The big 7 (I think) point list a made long ago (which included a strong point regarding how Marv acted in response to my Node-comments. Seriously, go fucking read it). - The Kush mis-read - The horrendous scumhunting - BCs case on him (the MMT check), convincing me further - ZBs case on him, convinving me further - Kei's case on him, pointing out his "want to be lynched"-play, convincing me further - Him jumping on every opportunity to increase confusion/explain his wierd/bad play (he admits its wierd/bad, and he tries to explain it through various silly happenings). This includes but is not limited to: The existance of a role+alignment framer, the existance of a sac-KP mechanic, the role blocks. Theres probably more. Now YOU go and show that you read the thread and read through all these cases. It should take an hour or two. Stop being afk and start doing work. And then maybe you'll realize why Im suspicious. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On September 15 2012 03:00 slOosh wrote: Screw this I'm making the case because people apparently can't read into singular posts and need to be spoonfed. StrongandBig This is his Mattchew vote. Review the context and look at how everyone else votes. They are all one liners saying "he is a liar ##Vote Mattchew". StrongandBig takes his time to really get into the nitty gritty and dwells on the point when it is totally unnecessary. There is no serious opposition to the votes - making your stance on Mattchew extremely clear is not something town would see as something necessary. This is scum bussing a teammate mentality - get as much credit by being as clear as possible. There are many posts in his filter that are mere speculation and wishy washy - nothing that shows scumhunting: Look how many times he states how uncertain he is on the issue. Then why bring it up? Why bother telling everyone in the thread "BC looks kinda weird but I'm not sure"? Read Mafia XXX - this is a scum trait, emphasizing uncertainty. Why as town would you want people to know how unsure you are? You can see he isn't trying to get a better read of BC since he doesn't post anything else on him. Compare this to a post from his filter in Mad Men Mafia Look how sure and assertive he is. He brings out clear arguments and doesn't once say "oh I'm not sure". This is also a D1 lynch involving strong personalities. Another post where he tries to take no responsibility for his votes. Notice how many times he has to let everyone know that he isn't sure. Additionally is mentioning other people's cases to push the idea - this allows people to start mislynches but he takes no responsibility. Scum trait. He doesn't even actually read Z-Boson's filter until called out. Again, we see he hops on a wagon, not offering anything new. If you notice he never mentions Rewok after the flip - why wouldn't you pursue something like that? He finds something off about the post, but just says "I don't like it". So many times in his filter "I don't like this or that" but never "this looks like scum". Again, hopping on another person's wagon, but also letting everyone know that the person whose wagon he is joining could be scum. He is setting up mislynches. If you think he could be scum then you would question it at the time, you don't need to wait for a townie flip to start pursuing it. I've pointed it out before and I'll do it again. First, the bold line is EXTREMELY hypocritical as seen from my case. Second, how is he so sure a push on Gravan be dismissed? He is twisting the situation to make mav look like scum no matter what. And this is the first time that he seems to care about the lynch, so I'm thinking that one of the candidates is a scum buddy (prob Gravan) that he is trying to save with a counter wagon. The best vote for today is StrongandBig. I realize this case is coming late but that is because Mav's posts and stuff that follow were late in the day. I will vote StrongandBig and check back nearer deadline if enough people can see it. I strongly think mav is a bad lynch at this point. Both Gravan and Shady Sands are better lynches than him. ##Unvote: Shady Sands ##Vote: StrongandBig Compare to this game... | ||
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On October 16 2012 20:36 ShiaoPi wrote: pull a sloosh? That term sounds fun, but no not my intention. I was asking about the 1on1-situation directly, I know you were digging for responses, you got some and put iamp+coag on the town-side based on it. Did it change in any way your stance on VE? Does not look like it judging from your vote still being on him. If you put iamp and coag as townreads, what do you make of the fact that they are voting for you, together with your highest supposed scumread ve? Well, I didnt get that much on the scum-hunting side, no. But VE being all over Coag when Coag was expressing suspicions of Sloosh was a nice tell. Not exactly something that makes an awesome case itself, but a nice tell nontheless. Apart from that I was already sure of VEs scummyness and nothing changed there. About their votes and what I make of that? I see it as confirmation that they're both American, as indicated by the Country above their names, and should still be sleeping. :p If they wish to keep their votes there Im sure they'll pop into the thread, tell me Im full of shit and that I should be lynched. Ask me again what I make of it if that happens. | ||
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So here the full crumbs: Post N3 post. Notice how this is BEFORE BCs claim. Boy am I glad I decided to throw that crumbs there before BC revealed the role: On October 06 2012 18:50 Kreb wrote: Well this is getting a bit silly. I feel I havent really done much useful stuff last 3days due to the obvious marv lynch, and now we have to wait another almost 5days before we get to (what could be!!!!) the next real lynch. I guess we're a bit lucky we have caught two seemingly strong scum players (I had a pretty towny read on Hapa although I was suspicious of marv). The lives of Risen and mkfuba shall not be forgotten! The fact that austin got shot also makes it look like he was telling the truth last night and was targetted. Still no claims for this night yet though.... I kinda kept updating on following post night posts, although they dont really mean much since this was after BCs claim. But here they are anyway: N4: On October 09 2012 16:50 Kreb wrote: Im a little bit interested in the sloosh case, but I still do not really see a reason to switch off VE. And on another note, mafia shot BKE, why would they do that? N5: On October 12 2012 16:34 Kreb wrote: Just looked at day post, this look to have got even more wierd than it already was lol. Still have not read through everything yet though, but no one getting shot.....? Theres gotta be some wierd mechanics at work here, I highly doubt it was all shots into Veterans, night immunes or medic saves. Well, probably shouldnt comment more before I read it all through.... And Im really starting to dislike how this thread gets like 2/3 of its posts while I sleep. Also, while not exactly a crumb, this a bit pretty funny and might strengthen my claim: :p On October 04 2012 08:06 Kreb wrote: I can see one reason to target austin though: Killing austin (supposing he is town) would possibly kill any support for the idea that the Node case was mafia-fabricated/fuelled. Because there would be no clear purpose to why mafia would have pushed it then. Maybe thats far-fetched, but its a thought anyway. Still thinking the whole idea with both a medic and vigi/mafia targetting austin seems strange though. Could austin be a veteran-role instead and claiming medic-save to confuse mafia? Or is there any other reason why a town-role would fake claim something like that? Or, of course, he is straight up lying and is scum. That said, while I dont mind the recent low quality discussion too much since its more than 4 days until next "real" lynch, I think people are spending a bit too much effort speculating on setup. Even if there are 3 medics, so what? That doesnt give us anything. That was me shamelessly fishing for advice on how to handle the situation of me getting shot since I wasnt sure what the best course of action would be since this is a new situation for me. | ||
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On October 17 2012 00:07 risk.nuke wrote: Coag. Godfather... I've almost played 20 tl games. I have never played (or seen) a game with a godfather without investigative role. The only exception I can recall ever seeing was a semi-closed setup with 4 potential setups in which one of the setups included gf without investigative roles so mafia couldn't tell what power roles the town had. The odds are VE is town. Theres still an unclaimed detective in the game (together with two other unclaimed roles). And 6 Blues out already. Either 7/4 town/mafia power roles or 6/5. I'd say 7/4 is more likely, which fits in with the fact that a town Detective might still be around. Arsonist also sounds much more mafia-ish. Until we know what/who the detective is you shouldnt assume VE being town because he is the supposedly the only investigative role. | ||
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5 flips. Me, VE, Iamp claims I see little reason to change my vote. | ||
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On October 17 2012 07:49 risk.nuke wrote: I was struggling between Sloosh and Shiaopi. Well that should make it an easy choice if you wanna keep your vote useful. | ||
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Good Night! | ||
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On October 17 2012 14:50 slOosh wrote: Will be good to hear what Kreb has to say about this. Not much. I fucked up. Others did too I guess. Game seems over although I guess there are mechanics which allows it to not be over (such as VEs sac-KP theory and Kush was scum). If people wanna hold it against me I dont mind that. Sloosh still seem scummy like hell. Though if the game goes on with me alive I'll probably have a lot of rethinking to do, so we'll see about that. For now, mostly waiting for the night to see if game ends or not. | ||
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On October 17 2012 18:03 DarthPunk wrote: There is no way to know if game is over. So don't give up. Give me your two top scum reads. Right now? Sloosh + X. But as I said I need to rethink this a lot atm. A lot of people might have had reasons to help me push VE. The only one who seems really really town atm is Coag because of VEs check on him. I put Iamp and ZB as town but will have to look over them again from a "what if they really are scum?" perspective. Still unsure about the rest. And yea, if Kush was scum lynching VE wasnt as bad as it looks, then it was quite a natural reaction to..... whatever mechanic made him flip town. But yea, that assumption falls if Kush was town, which I will assume unless 2ppl die and game doesnt end. | ||
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Also, afk-mode until tomrrow if game is still going on. Night. | ||
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Quite an annoying game due to how many clear lycnhes there were and how powerful the roles were. Only the Mattchew and Shady lynch seemed to be coming from discussion (although slightly fuelled by 3rd party). The rest was just 2 paramedic lynches, 1 obvious lynch on a "scum" claimed by a cop and the last on the cop who mis-claimed. All very role-focused. I probably tunneled too much, but I dont see the VE lynch being strange. Take 100 games where a supposed cop claims hes found a scum and he hasnt. How many games out of those 100 are due to a role+alignment framer hitting the right target with like 15ppl left, and how many are due to the cop being scum and have fake-claimed? I dont know the answer to that, someone more experienced tell me, but I strongly doubt the role+alignment framer is more common (yea yea I know circumstances bla bla, but then at least admit there were other scummy parts of VEs play, just as with about anyones play, too). I regret my tunneling because it was clearly stopping me from finding other scum, but I dont regret the VE lynch. Thats what happens when theres so many powerful roles in the game. The paramedics fucking mafia, the framer fucked town. Mafia got the better of it. I'll likely push for a lynch on the same guy making the same incorrect claim VE did next game, and the game after that. Next time I'd very much prefer less power roles and less powerful roles. Oh, and everyone calling the VE lynch bad play, imagine VE being scum and us letting him sit on his fakeclaim all game long into mafia victory. What would you have thought of that town play? Yea.... And really, HOW THE FUCK DID BC KNOW ABOUT MY ROLE!? I wouldve defended him to death, including revealing myself, had votes started going BCs way. And also, what was the "passive roleblocks" all about BC? | ||
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On October 18 2012 16:45 Blazinghand wrote: I'd have thought the town play is fine, but the cop not counter-claiming him would have been quite bad had he been scum. We were banking on him being Private Investigator, not being scum goon claiming PI. The lack of counter claim wasnt a factor. | ||
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On October 18 2012 14:53 DarthPunk wrote: Well. I feel a lot better about winning this game than I did at the end of the last game winning at LYLO because Grush voted himself and blew up BM. Haha, I feel the opposite. :p Last game I told you I thought mafia deserved it because mafia was better and town wasnt getting many read right. And I told you you should feel good. This game I dont feel like it was anywhere near as clear that mafia > town. I feel 100% shafted by the framer, thats a part of the game and I dont mind it, but I dont feel mafia won due to their good play. At the end of the game I had Sloosh, you and Shiao down as the most likely team with Sloosh being very clear (risk was so bitter it would require quite a good mafia to play that bitter I-know-best town role so I pinned him down as town towards the end). Yea I know its easy to say afterwards but thats how it was. Overall Im satisfied by my play and by town play compared to last game. This was a "lucky" framing win as opposed to last game imo, where mafia was straight up better. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:01 Blazinghand wrote: Why wasn't the lack of a counter claim a factor? You expected him to flip as a red rolecop, but not as a blue rolecop? This still means there's an unaccounted-for blue rolecop, right? No, not according to the OP......right? | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:04 Blazinghand wrote: So the assumption is that VE was a mafia rolecop, and there is no town rolecop, in a game with godfather and miller? >.> Far be it from me to speculate on setup, but that sounds literally insane. Hell, given the fact that he claimed a red check on a player who was already suspicious, AND the fact that he's VE, it seems profoundly unlikely that he wasn't a town rolecop. Then again, by then I was dead and not reading very heavily, which changes your perception of things. I just don't know why the claimed cop was lynched. Well, there was still a "Detective" in the game too. But I guess thats a fair argument. To me it looked like what you say was overshadowed by other happening. But that might have been me tunneling I guess. Point taken. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:18 Blazinghand wrote: I wasn't paying a huge amount of attention to the thread after I died, so I can't say it one way or another. The fact that he had a red check on a guy and the guy flipped green, though, in general shouldn't be a sign of a fakeclaim. I guess the right choice should have been to vote sloosh (which many seemed to agree on was scum), check him flip and if the flip in any way cleared VE (which it wouldnt have done ) then potentially get back on VE next day if hes still alive. Had mafia kept VE alive though I see no reason why we shouldnt have voted VE the day after though. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:23 Blazinghand wrote: Well, hindsight is 20/20 as they say. My only regret is letting Kush distract me from my ShiaoPi. Who were you? | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:25 DarthPunk wrote: I don't think That the frame was entirely 'luck'.There was ground work put into the kush frame. Several people were casting suspicion on him to the point where it was a fairly reasonable choice to check him. It is not as much as 1/15 chance to frame someone as it is creating and identifying situations in which a frame would be useful. Like we were tossing up between a Coag/Kush frame. It turns out coag was checked the night before kush. So it is was less 'luck' than you think. This set-up was heavily town favoured also. So if anyone should be complaining about set-up and roles it is scum. we had GF and Framer that messed with a singular cop and a roleblocker. Town had Watcher, Watcher, Paramedic, Paramedic, Veteran, Madhatter, Cop 5 investigative roles, 3 night kill stopping roles. and a Conditional Vig I feel very satisfied with my play this game. Well I didnt mean you randomly hit right (hence "lucky" not lucky), if you had good reason to frame him then kudos. But I just kinda mean you hit bullseye with one move which gave you the game. Had you not done it, I think town would have won. Partially due the double paramedics of course, which definitely would have been reasonable by mafia to blame the loss on in that case. As I said, too many too good roles means roles win games not good play. This time a mafia role got you the win imo. Less quantity of roles and less powerful roles please :< | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
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Kreb
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And someone reply how BC could know my role! :< | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:40 DarthPunk wrote: Nope but we put a lot off effort into achieving and then facilitating that last day when it was Kreb vs Viscera Eyes. And that was all we needed to do to fulfill our wincon. We didn't care if we were outed. It didn't matter. This is true too. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
MODS GIVE ME MAFIA ROLES PLEASE | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:52 DarthPunk wrote: Heh. I much prefer town although I have played mafia more than town. It is harder and tiring and often difficult to stay motivated with. There is a reason sloosh and Shiao were afk. Hehe. I dont think I'd have much trouble with that. I find it demotivating to have to deal with all other townies. :p I'm 1-2 so far and the win I've felt I didnt contribute much to and the losses I felt I lost to stuff outside of my control although Im definitely in no way a super town player. All town games have left a somewhat bitter taste. But a satisfying town win would be me cracking some scummy player and then nailing him down and getting town to vote for him. The problem is not only the fact that Im probably often wrong but even when Im right its pretty hard to get people to listen to you. On the other hand as mafia you are probably on average much more a part of the reason why your team wins. Plus I think people seem to consider my play townish and I wanna see if I can keep that up as scum to fool people. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 18:06 risk.nuke wrote: Kreb Coag and iamp was all already acting like townies (This does not mean you played well). Heh, that has been a big part of how I decided to play. I acknowledged that my scumhunting would probably be below par, at least initally. But a bad town looking like a townie I've learned is waaay "better" than a bad townie looking scummy. People seems to be all up about scumhunting but not enough people care enough to work on their own image as towny when they are town, to avoid suspicion from other town. Indeed, all the inactive townies just barely saying anything in a game are very annoying since they provide a healthy amount of cover for the mafia to play "bad". | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote: Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong. You realize thats not helping me, right? | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP. You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself. Well thats more helpful at least. The only thing I have to say about that is that last game I played I was totally onto the people playing without town features with the reasoning that "If they were town they would surely not play this bad/anti-town". You might remember it if you obsed it. What happened? Both my to pscum reads for that reason were both town. So I started to see lack of any features as exactly that, lack of anything. You could say I started to value active scummyness way higher than passive scummyness. Which initially had me all null on sloosh, shiao and mattchew and I only started to suspect that trio when the field was thinning out and most other players remaining were more or less townish. I never really suspected any of them due to their actions...... because there were no actions. The Mattchew mislynch also helped move me in that direction of reasoning. I considered both Shiao and Matt to be very much a shots in the dark, Sloosh somewhat less but still risky. And when one shot in the dark already failed (Matt) I really didnt feel like giving it a second try at mylo. But would you suggest always lynching players lacking of town (or any) features? If so, I'll definitely take it into account. | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:23 Mementoss wrote: Also fuck we shoulda lynched BC like I said, that woulda confirmed me so VE didn't have to waste check and it woulda confirmed mattchew. Then we coulda went to lynching sloosh and shiapi I wouldve revealed myself and pretty much confirmed him as Lucky Citizen in that case, so I dont think that would have happened. I was pretty close to revealing it at one point. Which is why I really wanna know how he knew of my role.... | ||
Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:27 marvellosity wrote: One of the hardest things in mafia is distinguishing between lazy/absent/bad town and scum, who have similar features. Honestly, Matt *could* have been scum. But there were things about his brazen attitude that could have tipped you off otherwise. ShiaoPi - iamperfection made a really *excellent* point, sadly ignored by most of the thread, that in an almost concurrent game as town, he repeatedly shouted at town for lack of activity. This should be lynchable by itself! The nature of his defences, when he appeared, how he appeared to jump all over DP. All scummy. slOosh - if we contrast with Matt, slOosh pretended to make contributions, without ever actually doing so. Matt was just like "yeah i'm doing jack shit." slOosh popped in sometimes, made some conversation, maybe once made a case on a townie, and then left again. This is scummy in itself, but when compared to his usual meta (leader, helpful, strong) it's absolutely damning. I gues you have a point about Shiao, but I dont have that meta knowledge really. Last game he was quite inactive until only like 5-6ppl remained too so I didnt consider him to be too far off compared to what I saw him as town. Sloosh I wouldve found it very hard to lynch for that reason though. There were practically identical cases on Sloosh, VE, BC, Mattchew. And probably to a lesser extent on one or two more. "Too off their meta, much less helpful than usual". I dont think anyone couldve confidently single out Sloosh's scummyness compared to the others. Especially if you dont have any meta knowledge about them yourself. But maybe I should be harder on non-contributors. Its probably gonna lead to quite a few policy-mislycnhes, but in the end maybe its worth it. | ||
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