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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
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Man, that flavor text is gruesome. | ||
Keirathi
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Why did you let him in again, DrH? | ||
Keirathi
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I'll give you a hint: we were masons together. Now, why did you play well that game? Because you were confirmed town status? No. You played well because you listened to BH about how a townie should think and act. Go back and read your conversations with him, please for the love of god. Otherwise I'm completely fine with voting you if DrH doesn't plan to modkill or replace you. Because I honestly don't want to put up with that shit for the whole game. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 14:46 Mattchew wrote: yo im town lets get after it does anyone know what trolling is anymore? that word gets thrown around so wrongly and it makes me angry anyway annul has the only post in the thread that is worth reading Hypocritical much? It took you 3 posts before you actually said something worth reading. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 22:35 kushm4sta wrote: I apologize for my lack of specificity. I dislike his content because it is all caps nonsense. Not even proper trolling, just spam. SO ALL CAPS = SCUM? I don't follow your logic. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 20:03 kushm4sta wrote: I voted for shady because he called me a troll. There is no one better to vote for atm. I might as well vote for someone who was mean to me and has a history of being mean to me. Also I'm not a fan of his content. Or a scum lynch because: On September 30 2012 21:54 kushm4sta wrote: I like to always have my vote on my top scumread. Even if it's a weak read. FOS is reserved for secondary scumreads. GLHF I will try not to act mature and not be an attention whore. On September 30 2012 22:35 kushm4sta wrote: I apologize for my lack of specificity. I dislike his content because it is all caps nonsense. Not even proper trolling, just spam. Honestly, either one is terrible reasoning. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 29 2012 10:37 BlackMamba24 wrote: game will start with a 24 hr night 0 by the way But then: On September 30 2012 13:14 BlackMamba24 wrote: [center]Day 1 ... snip The game has started. If you have not been sent a role PM, PM me immediately. Do not ask questions in the thread. Good luck. Night 1 will begin approximately 48 hours from now. So is it day or night? | ||
Keirathi
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Keirathi
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Keirathi
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Can you tell me what is scummy about that post of mine you quoted? I mean, its one thing to say something is scummy, but you didn't give any reasoning. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 01:12 kingjames01 wrote: At the time, within the context of the game, it just seemed contrived. I read it as a mafia who was trying to sound Town. I'm not saying that you're mafia, just that the post sounded that way. Contrived? I have a shared history with Shady, and I wanted him to man up and play like I know that he's capable of, rather than like an ass. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 07:51 iamperfection wrote: i obsed his two last games(He rolled scum i both). i would say hes a bit ...unstable. however he slips a lot and has many break downs in logic in his scum games that i saw. If he is scum he will slip eventually. He has those same break downs in logic as town too. I think the difference is his attitude. But he's aware of how his attitude changes when he rolls scum (he commented on it a few posts up), so he could potentially change it. For now, I don't think he is scummy. | ||
Keirathi
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Anyways, regarding Shady and KJ: On September 30 2012 13:41 Shady Sands wrote: Because no one ever punishes Chez or Kushm4sta or YourHarry or GRush or BM for it why should i play the game seriously when i end up getting mislynched or shot anyways, even AHEAD OF THE OBVIOUS FUCKING NON CONTRIBUTORY TROLLING IDIOTS =) He wants to troll to buy a free-ride through the game because he thinks that's automatically why those players make it to endgame. I don't buy that it was a gambit to get a mod to threaten trolling. That said, I'm hesitant to jump on the bandwagon because its so...easy. Which is ironic, because THATS the reason that people like BM and grush make it to endgame. Not because they troll, but because lynching them is the easy way out for scum when they are town. As far as KJ, I just want to say that I wasn't even getting defensive. I was legitimately trying to figure out his thinking, and explain myself. That he got defensive to my questions, and then decided on a wishy-washy stance rather than taking a firm opinion and trying to explain himself make me question his motives. Just throwing mud out for the sake of appearing like he was contributing? For now: ##Vote: kingjame01 | ||
Keirathi
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Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 10:54 marvellosity wrote: P.S. GUISE! Am I the only one who wants to use the voting thread?! There's a voting thread? News to me :o | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 10:52 marvellosity wrote: Yes it is ironic, because it's preventing you voting for him. Mission successful on you at least then? It's the inherent 'too scummy to be scum' defence which is bleh. VE's post at the top of this page mostly covers my thoughts on both Shady and KJ. With kingjames, the general wishy washyness isn't *so* bad in general except for the fact that he just lumped those quotes in the thread in the first place. If you're not willing to uphold why you're doing so, it's just insidious suspicion placing. With Shady, what I really really dislike is the bullshit after-the-fact explanation for his actions. It just reads as a lie trying to justify the dumb play in the first place. I've seen several instances of scum trying to justify shit after the fact... Kei, i think you were in that game with talis and his 'reads' plan where he was scum? On top of this is his absence from the thread afterwards. If you're seriously making a point about how trolling is bad (...) then at best it's completely hypocritcal to disappear without actually then providing any content. Your response to it, Kei, is validation of Shady playing like that. Boo! ##Vote: Shady Sands | ||
Keirathi
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And yea, I was in Not Themed, where talis proposed his "Make a case on 3 people day1" plan. But I didn't think that was "too scummy to be scum", I just thought it was a bad plan. The fact that he proposed the same plan in multiple games of either alignment reaffirmed that to me. And in the end, I was wrong about him being scum. Maybe I'm just bad :o | ||
Keirathi
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On September 30 2012 21:06 mkfuba07 wrote: Hi guys. Didn't expect the game to start tonight, and I'm heading to bed soon, but I thought I'd poke my head in. To elaborate a bit more on what I'm changing about my play (which I know I probably should have mentioned beforehand), I'm going to be posting more off the top of my head, without spending hours thinking about my posts and ultimately deciding not to post anything. Hopefully this will result in more posts, giving more insight into what I'm thinking. I'm mentioning this because (hopefully) this will be different than my previous meta, and it'll be easier to address it now than later. Aside from the trolling thing, which he said he was going to do before the game started, Shady just seems like Shady to me. What exactly don't you like about his content? So far your vote seems pretty empty. I thought you were going to be posting more? | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 11:39 kingjames01 wrote: So what we're shifting towards is whether Shady's 'plan' to preempt trolling was legitimate or a cover-up? That should not be the focus of our first day. Instead, I'd like Shady to come back to the thread and give us something more concrete. Shady: what do you think about the assertion that I was being wishy-washy? Also, tell us if you have a spy read on anyone yet, who and why. A spy read? | ||
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Keirathi
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Your vote is your means of pressuring someone and getting a response. If your vote is meaningless all game, no one is going to care about it and feel the need to justify themselves to you. You're basically giving up your only power as a townie for some contrived need of having your vote out. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 12:37 kushm4sta wrote: @keirathi Why is parking my vote on someone I don't think is scum a good idea? It's only a good idea in the beginning of the game when i don't think anyone is scum and have 0 scumreads on everyone. As for your second question, a vote has an innate power no matter how you use it. If someone has enough at the end of the day they die. If you use it to pressure it is like an exclamation point at the end of your argument, and that is something that will be ignored by any level headed scum. Why is it a good idea in the beginning of the game? You still didn't explain that. If you don't have a scumread, why are you voting for someone at all? Your goal as a townie is lynch scum, not to settle some dispute from a past game. "Because he has a history of being mean to me" is literally the worst reason for a vote that I've ever heard. And yes, your vote has the innate power of being a factor in the lynch. But it has way more than that. And no, a level headed scum isn't going to ignore a case+vote on him, at least if its not a totally bullshit case+vote. He'll squash the case before it gains momentum. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 13:17 Shady Sands wrote: But given that there are people who are possibly smurfing for others here What? Like, what even gave you that idea? I'm at least nominally familiar with every single person in the player list. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 13:22 kushm4sta wrote: Yeah shady's arrogance that he thinks he can save us from the trolls (myself included) makes me want to lynch him really badly the more I think about it. Not for good reasons...I don't need a lecture about it. If you're not even going to try to play the game, why the fuck did you sign up? | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 13:41 Z-BosoN wrote: Oh, ok, so it's so obvious that shady is scum, that whoever doesn't agree, is scum? Right. Since it's so obvious, let's hear it. You were the first to vote him for his trolling. Why don't you explain why you changed your mind from it being enough that you wanted to "mega-vote" him, into it not being scummy at all? | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 13:44 Z-BosoN wrote: As a matter of fact, I think that's actually laughable. If I were scum like hell I'd want to put my neck out for a troll snot. I don't think he's scum. Oh, so you're another person that's content with lynching townies over finding actual scum. Gotcha. | ||
Keirathi
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Keirathi
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Misunderstanding. I'm tired and my brain didn't click that you were the one that made the case on VE/etc. You still voted for a non-scum read for no real reasoning, which is what I was getting at. But you've moved past that into giving actual reads. Carry on. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 01 2012 13:59 kushm4sta wrote: Chill bro lay off them f bombs. I'm playing the game. Lynching who I want to lynch. Lynching someone who you don't think is scum is not playing the game if you're a townie. In fact, its demonstrably anti-town. | ||
Keirathi
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No. I don't think he's trolling, I think he just has terrible logic. | ||
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On October 01 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: Except I don't think he's scum at the moment. He's managing to be surprisingly unargumentative and I don't think he has the self-control to pull that off as a lie. His town games are littered with big scumslips, and I've watched/coached/hosted every single one of his newbie games. I agree with marv here. I obs'd his newbie games, and IMO as a townie he's relaxed and passive. As scum, he rages. I said it earlier, I think his logic is fucking terrible, but his mentality has been that of his townie play. But this isn't a newbie game, so I spent a lot of time trying to make him see that it was terrible. I guess he doesn't want to listen. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 00:30 iamperfection wrote: I Saw that tails had a 15 page filter in mad men. Has he ever gone mia like this? My guess is that he didn't know the game started, and hasn't been around all weekend. His last post in the caller game was a few days ago, iirc. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 01:26 Risen wrote: I don't think it's a scum slip, I think it's a tiny thing that adds up to him being the most likely scum candidate up for lynch right now. He's completely fine with lynching a towny, just because... it's not like the person he's ok with flipping green is playing horribly. The main reason I'm voting for him was outlined in my initial vote post in here. You complain about being invisible, but you've completely ignore mine and marv's posts about kush (and, even been too lazy to go look up his meta for yourself, apparently). I don't think his meta is strong enough to say that he's 100% town, but there's no way I would want to lynch him the other day. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 01:39 Keirathi wrote: You complain about being invisible, but you've completely ignore mine and marv's posts about kush (and, even been too lazy to go look up his meta for yourself, apparently). I don't think his meta is strong enough to say that he's 100% town, but there's no way I would want to lynch him the other day. EBWOP: I meant "there's no way I would want to lynch him today". | ||
Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 01:59 Risen wrote: EBWOP: And in that post you quoted I'm talking about Shady Sands. Did you think I was talking about kush? I'm confused now. How does it even make sense that you were talking about Shady? You said you didn't blame annul for his vote on kush. Matt asked you if you and annul both thought that him saying he was fine with voting a non-scum read was a scum slip. Risen wrote: He's completely fine with lynching a towny, just because... it's not like the person he's ok with flipping green is playing horribly. I don't see how that applies to Shady at all. It's a perfect description of kush though. So if you weren't talking about kush, then I think we're both confused? | ||
Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 03:38 Risen wrote: How about you go read what Mattchew said and what I responded to before you try speaking in thread again. Here's what I saw happening: 1) kush says he would vote for Shady despite having a green read on him 2) annul says "Damn, that was easy. ##vote kush" 3) You say "I don't blame you for [your vote on kush]" to annul 4) (unrelated) Matt comes in and tells everyone to stop voting for Shady 5) Matt asks you and annul if you both thought that kush saying he would vote for Shady as a scumtell. 6) You said in reply to Matt: I don't think it's a scum slip, I think it's a tiny thing that adds up to him being the most likely scum candidate up for lynch right now. He's completely fine with lynching a towny, just because... it's not like the person he's ok with flipping green is playing horribly. The main reason I'm voting for him was outlined in my initial vote post in here. Can you honestly not see how I thought you were talking about Kush? I don't even see how you claim that this reply is about Shady at all. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 03:45 Risen wrote: Oh shit I thought Keir was Kreb continuing something from earlier. I am bad, and I am sorry. Oh. Carry on, then. Although I'm still a bit confused | ||
Keirathi
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On October 02 2012 04:22 kushm4sta wrote: Stop shitting on me. They aren't logic loops... like im trying to do logic and failing. It's just me not giving a shit about logic I assure you. Then stop playing shitty and do you job as town and lynch scum, not somebody who you think is town but has bullied you in the past. Thats fucking worthless, ffs. | ||
Keirathi
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That doesn't change the fact that I still don't like his wishy-washy attitude earlier in the game, nor how he picked Mementoss from all the other lurkers/non-contributors. | ||
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On October 03 2012 11:57 kingjames01 wrote: I don't think he's ever said that he thinks I'm Town only that he thought saying 'spy' instead of 'scum' was a lousy reason to get lynched. Anyone who was voting you for that reason is either an idiot or scum. | ||
Keirathi
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[quote]Risen the Paramedic is dead. You are the Paramedic. You can target a player to save at night and if they are targeted for a hit, you will revive them. However, if you target someone in the mafia, you will be killed. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On October 03 2012 11:18 Risen wrote: I'm going to sleep now, so I won't be awake for day post unless I wake up/can't sleep. If I die kill marv (not a joke, not wifom bait, kill him)[/QUOTE] ##vote: marvellosity | ||
Keirathi
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On October 03 2012 14:00 BlackMamba24 wrote: Risen the Paramedic is dead. You are the Paramedic. You can target a player to save at night and if they are targeted for a hit, you will revive them. However, if you target someone in the mafia, you will be killed. On October 03 2012 11:18 Risen wrote: I'm going to sleep now, so I won't be awake for day post unless I wake up/can't sleep. If I die kill marv (not a joke, not wifom bait, kill him) ##vote: marvellosity | ||
Keirathi
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On October 04 2012 00:46 marvellosity wrote: I mean, I am definitely town. Get your votes off me, bitchasspunks. I'm not exactly sure why, but this made me laugh extremely hard. | ||
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On October 04 2012 00:57 Z-BosoN wrote: omfg lol @ coag. Here's to never taking him seriously ever again You took him seriously to begin with? (<3 coag) | ||
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On October 04 2012 01:07 Coagulation wrote: Is the bandwagon because of risen dropping a massive wifom bomb before he died? Like... really? When im scum I always shoot the stupid fucker saying "IF I DIE KILL THIS TOWNIE" cause of idiot bandwagons like this. throw all that out the window cause marv starts playing scummy as fuck in response to the pressure so whatever. Risen had a power than if he protected a scum, then he died. Is it possible that scum shot him, and thats the reason he died, rather than his ability? Sure. But we know that 1) Risen protected marv and 2) Risen died. I'm more than happy to gamble on marv actually being scum here. Plus, his attitude today is totally not town marv anyways. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 04 2012 05:15 Mementoss wrote: seems like your taking a page out of hiropros playbook from rockband lol More like Blazinghand from Idiot Cop imo. | ||
Keirathi
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The problem is I don't see scum marv buddying VE then not shooting him n1. And since VE is 1) still alive and 2) isn't claiming a hit, I'm pretty suspicious of VE right now. | ||
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On October 04 2012 06:24 VisceraEyes wrote: Hey I claimed RB - EXCUUUUSE ME that scum feel I'm horrifyingly manipulable. Yea, you did. But, looking at the role list, nothing jumps out as a roleblocker role. Not saying there isn't one, but aparently we have 3(+?) medics, but only one roleblock? It doesn't make a lot of sense, and its a super easy claim. Basically claiming RB is a 100% null tell. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote: Keirathi Super scummy. He came out of the gates really aggressively towards several people. He makes a lot of noise commenting on their anti-town play. Not several people. Just kush. Because I thought kush was town based on his demeanor, but his voting and play was distinctly anti-town. I spent a lot of time trying to make him see that. But I should have just shut up and let him play stupidly? Okay. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote: I would quote more but they are in his filter and there is alot of this. He is not actually contributing. Just criticising the play of others. Not scum hunting just telling people that they are bad/anti-town. Nothing I can really say about that. It's pretty true. After questioning KJ, I felt comfortable in my scum read of him. So I spent the rest of my time questioning other people and berating kush. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote:He leaves his vote on KJ despite huge voting activity at deadline and It becomes meaningless. In spite of saying this earlier After the lack of scum hunting and his meaningless vote on KJ. What you probably didn't pick up on just by reading my filter (or maybe intentionally misrepresenting?), is the timing of my posts. Go back and look at my last post on day 1. It was 9 hours before the deadline (and 32 hours before my next post). That's because I took an unplanned trip out of town and didn't have internet. My vote might have been meaningless at the end of the day, but when I left it wasn't (KJ had the majority). There was literally nothing I could have done because I didn't have internet access to keep up with the game. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote: Couple of things stand out about this vote on marv. He actually bothers to explain his vote. Even though it is blatantly clear why people would vote for him. He feels the need to explain it anyway. He expresses displeasure in not being faster to vote for marv. You know who cares about in which order they vote for someone. Scum. That's who. ToutEstChaos justified his vote too. Why is the fact that I did it scummier than the fact that he did it? Also, the "Damnit, I'm slow" comment was because, when I first read the daypost, no one had commented on the reason Risen had died, nor voted marv yet. So I quoted Risen's death, then started trying to find the post where Risen had said to kill marv when he died. By the time I had finished, Tout had already beat me to the explanation. Basically you're saying that it would have been townier for me to first vote marv, 10 minutes after the day post, with 0 explanation. I don't buy that. It would be like the people who took flak for hopping on Matt without explanation in LVII after his Nosy Neighbor claim. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote: I have played with Keir before when he was town. This is not how he started at all. Not even close. FoS: Keirathi This is reasonable, but a question: have you read my scum game (GSL Open Mini Mafia 1) for reference? I mean, sure I'm aware that I played a reasonably "good" scum game in that, so if I wanted to play differently I could. But would I really go for the extreme opposite end of the spectrum? From "good" scum, to terrible and easily caught? Anyways, I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to lynch me tomorrow. I lost some of my interest after having to catch up with 24+ hours of two different games. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 04 2012 14:49 ToutEstChaos wrote: I don't even have words to reply to this with, so let me pose you this question: Would you EVER believe a player who used this argument to defend themselves? Be honest, the answer is "no" 100% of the time. This is a non-argument. It's not about believing me. Its about reading my scum game and deciding if it makes more sense that I suddenly started being terrible at scum, or just bored townie. | ||
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On October 06 2012 01:58 DarthPunk wrote: So after My case Keirathi presented a token defense and has since disappeared. His last post was this. But I don't see him doing whatever he can right now. And I don't feel his previous scum game somehow clears his play this game. Keirathi 100% does not play like this as town. There's literally no way to refute that. You're 100% right, I've been unmotivated to put much effort into this game since 1) I missed ~30 hours of the day, and 2) we had a confirmed scum. Hell, I would probably vote for me tomorrow in your shoes. And that's not "martyring", its just the truth that I've done nothing to prove my towniness. But, I wasn't lying. I will scour the game and give my thoughts sometime soon. Hopefully before the day post, since I don't have any plans when I get off work this afternoon. | ||
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On October 06 2012 03:40 ShiaoPi wrote: LoL, you will just call me out for not doing cases again if I drop reads without reasoning, whatever the fuck here comes: scummy as hell: VE, Coag and Matt, various reasons for each, but mainly for being vets their impact has been close to zero in this game. scumleaning: BC, Sloosh and whoever replaces for Node, I know I had him more on the townieside but fuck it no reason at all to go MIA like this. kind of wary off: Sharrant, risk, fuba, boson and kush Es-tu satisfait de mon travail, mon ami? I'm not in that list anywhere? That's....pretty boggling. | ||
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mkfuba wrote: Finally, hi Hapa! I really hope you're actually town and Node was just being Node... I'll probably be destroyed if I have to face you as mafia. mkfuba died. ##vote: Hapahauli | ||
Keirathi
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On October 06 2012 13:05 iamperfection wrote: i think we should let him update the voting thread with a divider just for clarity sake Oops too late. | ||
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"Hi Blazinghand-ahauli". If you don't get the reference, see Idiot Cop Mini. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 07 2012 03:10 kushm4sta wrote: @promethelax What else can they do but give up?? The paramedic leaves zero doubt. Of course it leaves doubt. Both of those breadcrumbs were anything but subtle. If scum saw fuba's (especially after losing their godfather and being paranoid about paramedic), they could have potentially shot him to frame Hapa. The problem is, you still lynch Hapa anyways. There's just too much chance that the paramedic died using his ability rather than being shot. So, there's plausible doubt, but not enough to get out of a lynch. | ||
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On October 07 2012 03:23 Promethelax wrote: I would argue that the first bread crumb was pretty subtle since no one knew about the role. The second one was more subtle as a claim because the role was known but easier to decipher because the role was known. If my math is right though scum has two kp and the third townie death was Fuba by targeting Hapa. Also if hapa was town this would never be his response. Kier, you aren't dumb (believe me I know, you called my ass out when I was scum) but this post is just introducing doubt where there is none, you don't consider the actions of the players being accused. You have successfully posted while adding nothing to the thread; why did you post this? What math? Where does it say anything about how much KP the mafia has? Or, how many mafia there are? How can you do math when you don't know the variables? About the last part, I was talking purely from a hypothetical standpoint. Hapa is 100% confirmed scum, because his actions aren't consistent with what a framed townie would do. They're what a caught scum does. The fact that you asked him to fight instead of give up, then calling me out for saying the reason that he COULD have fought (even if we wouldn't have believed him) is hypocritical as fuck. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 07 2012 04:29 Promethelax wrote: Sorry, that isn't clear, I use "if my math is right" to mean based on what I think I've figured out. It seems like there have been caimed vig shots/death by being a paramedic which encompass all the kills but two each night. If your understanding is different I'd love to hear it. So, lets think about night 1 a bit. 3 people died: Risen (paramedic, who died from targetting scum), Annul (who you claimed your predecessor shot), and kingjames01 (scum shot? a secong vig? doesn't really matter). Then, on the second night, 3 people still died. A paramedic, again assumed to have targetted scum. Tout, who was being pretty pro-town and therefor a probable scum shot, and austin whom no one has claimed shooting, and therefor probably a scum shot. You can see why I'm screwy on your guessing game math. Because supposedly we had a vig shot, night 1, and not one on night 2, but still the same amount of kills. Yea, its possible that there was a medic save night 1, or any number of things, but I think any kind of extrapolation of scum numbers and KP at this point is EXTREMELY speculative. To suggest otherwise makes me question if you have extra information that I don't. | ||
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On October 07 2012 04:48 Promethelax wrote: The information I have that you don't is reading the goddamn thread. Touche. | ||
Keirathi
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On October 07 2012 13:09 kushm4sta wrote: fuck me I'm triple posting... this is why you don't post 1 liners I guess. Soft Defense of Playbad Vets This group is being FOSed by a lot of people (including me) just because they have very low activity and they are known to be good and experienced mafia players. This group definitely includes but is not probably not limited to: BloodyC0bbler, Keirathi, VisceraEyes To use their inactivity as a scumtell I think is unfair. Here is why: There are too many of them to all be scum. Therefore something else must be causing vets to afk
If you read their activity before they start lurking, it's mostly decent and what you'd expect. I propose we focus on scum targets with more evidence than "they usually play better." Wat. 1) I'm not a vet by any means. I'm relatively new to these forums (I think I started in June? July? I have like 6 games played, and 2 currently going). I certainly haven't lost my passion for the game. I had some outside things interfere with the game, and then we've had what...5 days worth of confirmed scum to lynch. My other game is just more urgent than this one. 2) There are a ton of things in my filter to accuse me for, besides inactivity. Hell, I don't even think that me being inactive is the reason anyone is accusing me, outside of the fact that I asked you why you signed up if you weren't going to play, then have proceeded to not give the game much attention. But mostly its because, although I was quite active on day 1, I haven't done any scumhunting. The fact that seem to be randomly giving me a town read and saying to look for better targets is hella fucking suspicious. There's basically no way anyone should have a town read on me right now in this game. | ||
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On October 09 2012 06:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote: You are correct, I did claim medic prot to avoid getting shot again. Given that I only have 1 extra night life. Not sure why everyone keeps coming at me about being a third party but since your reasoning for your conclusion is wrong I will sum it up for you. Miller was removed from this game, the miller role was named "veteran". The actual veteran role however was not removed from the game. I am Lucky Citizen . Whats even worse is that you assumed I was a third party serial killer. If you watched me you would have seen me visited and me go out and do something had I had a night action. Given that you knew that I had not visited anyone, and that I was visited you should realize the only logical conclusion is that I am town. You base your conclusion on false information as well as trusting two dead mafia. Not sure what to say here other then you are a horribly bad townie or mafia desperately attempting to remove me from the game. Err, what? What kind of watcher is a watcher AND a tracker? | ||
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On October 09 2012 06:07 Keirathi wrote: Err, what? What kind of watcher is a watcher AND a tracker? EBWOP: Medical Examiner You are the Medical Examiner. Each night, you may go through the records of an individual. You will be informed of any other players who visit this individual. Says nothing about knowing if they leave. | ||
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Again, since you didn't answer me. What makes you think that a watcher sees that someone leaves to go do something when you watch them? The specific role information doesn't suggest that at all, nor does the watcher information on mafiascum wiki. I've not played with a ton of watcher, but all of them have been the exact same variation (except in heavily themed games): you see who targets your target, and thats it. | ||
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Mementoss willingly gave information about his role without hesitation when Promethelax asked, but had to edit it out because he was ninja'd by BM24. | ||
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On October 09 2012 06:54 Keirathi wrote: This is what I hate about after-the-fact edits. Mementoss willingly gave information about his role without hesitation when Promethelax asked, but had to edit it out because he was ninja'd by BM24. What I mean is that it already influenced my read of the situation, but now I can't even share that with other people because it was asked to not be talked about. | ||
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As far as BC...I think its about 50/50 whether he's SK or Vet. We don't know enough about the scum numbers or KP to be able to decidedly prove that there's an SK, IMO. And claiming that he was medic protected as a Vet does make some modicum of sense. Its probably what I would do if I knew there were save notifications (ie austin). I'm...not sure he's worth lynching tomorrow. Even if he is SK, SK at this point is probably wants to shoot townies but doesn't want to overlap his shots. So he would be aiming for less obvious townies (which could be beneficial to us, as it gets rid of some controversial townies), and may end up inadvertently hitting scum. My next read is going to be about risk.nuke. I'm going through some logs and checking a previous game. I'll post it soon. | ||
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On October 09 2012 07:09 Keirathi wrote: That I almost 100% believe Mementoss's claim at this point. As far as BC...I think its about 50/50 whether he's SK or Vet. We don't know enough about the scum numbers or KP to be able to decidedly prove that there's an SK, IMO. And claiming that he was medic protected as a Vet does make some modicum of sense. Its probably what I would do if I knew there were save notifications (ie austin). I'm...not sure he's worth lynching tomorrow. Even if he is SK, SK at this point is probably wants to shoot townies but doesn't want to overlap his shots. So he would be aiming for less obvious townies (which could be beneficial to us, as it gets rid of some controversial townies), and may end up inadvertently hitting scum. My next read is going to be about risk.nuke. I'm going through some logs and checking a previous game. I'll post it soon. Some further thoughts: One thing that concerns me about the BC = SK thing is that marv and Hapa tried pretty hard to convince us that he was SK. Scum don't necessarily want the SK dead, especially when they are hemorrhaging members. They want townies dead, and, at least early, SK helps with that. The caveat to this is that eventually the SK is going to have to start trying to hit scum, because to win he has to make it to 1v1v1 LYLO. And, BC being SK would eventually scare mafia, because I believe he is good enough to pick out the scum at some point. But again, we don't know for sure that there even is an SK. All we can be certain of is that there was 4 KP night 1, one of which was a claimed vig shot, and 2 on night 2 without a vig and mafia lost 1 member. | ||
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On October 09 2012 07:22 Promethelax wrote: People keep saying how ahead we are, is that really true? do you think we're at a 13-2-1 situation right now or 12-3-1 or what? I see those still being pretty balanced. We've lost some power roles, scum has lost their GF. And, most importantly, we have had almost no discussion for two cycles. How do you see us as so far ahead of scum that SK wants to eliminate townies? VE, Kier, thanks for participating. Its nice to see you guys posting more. VE: if Kush were to be Vig'd who would you want to lynch next Day? Kier: What do you think of our lurking contingent, there are a lot of good players not joining in, which of the is towniest and which scummiest? I think we're probably at 12-3-1. General rule of thumb AFAIK is 1 scum per 5 players. So in a 25 player game, theoretically there would be 5 scum. 4 or 6 is also possible for balance reasons, but default assumption would be 5. Some further reasoning for that: In general, scum KP is (alive mafia/2) rounded up. That would give 3 KP on night 1, but then only 2 on night 2 (since marv died). Which fits with what has happened (and why I'm hesitant to say that there's an SK). As far as the lurkers/good players thing, I'll really have to get back to you. As terrible as I know it sounds (and its really obvious already), I really haven't been spending that much time going back through the game and making reads. Its just been really hard to get motivated to pay more attention when I have 1) another game that is taking a ton of attention and 2) this game having 2 full cycles in a row of guaranteed scum. Yes, I understand that's terrible. I apologize to BM24 and my fellow townies. But, for a quick "gut" response, I would say slOosh looks the worst of the lurkers vets, and VE the towniest. I'll expand on that before deadline. | ||
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risk.nuke First off, I agree with iamperfection's point about risk. I don't think Hapa (before he was caught by fuba) would have been pushing him so hard if risk was scum. Some more reasons why I think that he is town: go back and look at Dwarf Fortress Mini and compare his filter to here. So many things feel the same, from his lurking, to randomly throwing out a big case, down even to his anger when people call him out. And I lead a mislynch on him in that game for all of those things. After the risk lynch went through, marv pm'd me on irc and told me why that lynch was a mistake: risk may be lurky/etc/etc, but he has one very distinct town tell; however sporadic, he DOES put effort in. I don't 100% think that he is town (in general, I am loathe to give 'guaranteed town' reads), but there's no way that I would want to lynch him tomorrow, or even the day after that. Pretty much only at LYLO would I give him a good, hard look. VisceraEyes This is a much less...concrete...read, having never played with VE. But I have a pretty thorough friendship with marv, and I've talked to him at length about how we both play Mafia in general. And, I just don't see scum marv buddying so hard with a scum VE on day 1, especially when VE had been in some hot water all game. I feel that the much more likely explanation is that town VE was sheeping marv (which, IIRC, is something that he likes to do) with the Node vote, and marv was just playing off of it. Part of that is something that marv specifically said to me once: "You're never going to catch me as scum on day 1 based on some behavioral tells" which I 100% believe. It's been said time and time again, but he's just too crafty to give away extra teammates of his like that. Call that WIFOM if you want, but I just don't see it. slOosh Here's where I think we have our scum. Look at his opinions on the Node switch and why he picks Shady over Node: On October 02 2012 12:33 slOosh wrote: Guh didn't realize how much time I actually take to read. Between Node and Shady Sands I'm leaning Shady. With a total lack of follow through after his troll antics, he has disrupted early day discussion and dropped off. Not lynching him today on the basis of a potential modkill is stupid - he could easily trade his life for hurting day 2 discussion as well and he might not even be lynched. The nature of the Node lynch is really strange. Reason enough to lean the former. ##Vote: Shady Sands On October 02 2012 12:49 slOosh wrote: Node is scummy. I think what you found about his post was valid. However we can only lynch 1 at a time and I find Shady a better target for the reasons I stated. The strangeness of Node's lynch was that there was a disconnect between the push and the votes - you tossed out a bunch of names and his was just picked up. It's enough to sway me to Shady. So Node was scummy, but the only reason he decided to vote Shady instead was because the swing wagon felt "strange", which was enough that Shady's trolling made him more likely scum than Node. That reasoning feels so weak to me that its hard to believe that was the thought process of a townie. Aside from that, its kind of hard to put into words. It just doesn't feel like...he's actually trying to help town? I mean, he's been pretty lurky, but he was lurky in LVII as well. But in that game, even as third party that really had no care for what happened in the actual game, he still went out of his way to help town by finding scum and pushing them. He just hasn't done that this game. Again, it feels a lot like Dwarf Fortress Mini (he was scum), where he just comes in occasionally and remarks on the current goings-on in the thread and then stayed pretty disassociated from the game for the rest of the time. I'm going to get food right now and I'm not entirely sure I'll be back before deadline (hence why I'm posting now instead of waiting until deadline), but if I don't go do anything else after dinner and have time I'll write up some thoughts on kush and maybe more people when I get back. | ||
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Sorry, only 8 minutes left to deadline and I don't think I have enough time to really scour through and try to come up with a more refined opinion than that. Now to kush: I hard defended kush on day 1, while simultaneously bashing his play with everything that I had. Because scum-meta kush is known to flip-the-fuck-out when you start railing on him. I kind of thought it was a good idea, and that if I could get him to flip out that maybe it would give me a better read of him, since his play in general is so ass-backwards that its hard to really decide. However, in GSL II, he played a pretty damn rage-free game as scum. That convinces me that he took Hapa's advice at the end of Newbie XXVII (I think?) to heart, and realize that if he kept the attitude up as scum that he would be caught easily by stronger players. Combine that with the fact that marv was godfather and could have been mentoring him and reminding him to keep his cool and it makes me rescind my earlier hard defense. That being said, I really don't think I'm anywhere close to having a solid read of him. I could certainly make a case for him being scum, but he has such weird lapses in logic even as town that I just can't dismiss the possibility yet. | ||
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There are 2 roles in the OP that could thematically fit as "Third Party". Hitman could be SK-esque (or more likely a mafia role), and Paranoid Arsonist. I don't exactly know what a "paranoid" Arsonist does, but typically arsonists place gas on one target per night, and then on any night after they've put gas on people, they can choose to light them all. And that would account for why we've had a relatively low amount of KP every night. MAYBE Paranoid means that he is bulletproof. It would make some amount of sense thematically. But arsonist is already a pretty powerful role (albeit extremely risky with deciding how long to prolong using your kills), and I've never seen a bulletproof variation of one. Only having to worry about being lynched would probably be OP as hell. | ||
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On October 09 2012 14:07 slOosh wrote: You have no problem with the fact that his initial response to the accusation is to cast doubt on mementoss and discredit him even if he were town? I can 100% understand his annoyance if he was really under the impression that watchers also see if their target leaves to go visit someone else during the night. If that's what I thought watchers did, then my first thought with Mementoss supposedly seeing that I didn't leave when he watched me, then yes I would assume that he was mafia and try discrediting him. @BC: Have links to the games where they worked like that, for reference? | ||
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Why was marv so willing to bus Node on day1, but spent time hard defending kush? I certainly don't think its impossible, but that's a pretty extreme dichotomy. | ||
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Yea, its WIFOM. But I've been thinking about kush a lot, and VE jumping in and voting for him made me start thinking about it. Here's my current train of thought (and yes, before you say it, its still WIFOM, but I believe it actually makes some sense). Kush comes under pretty heavy pressure day 1, and marv immediately jumps in to defend him pretty damn hard. Also, kush is the kind of player that's always an easy lynch, so as scum he would at some point be a liability to a scum marv that plans to survive until the end game (and yes, that is always marv's goal. He prides himself of being "unlynchable"). So, lets say it gets to that point and Kush flips scum. Now, because of marv's hard defense, marv looks pretty damn bad. Say what you want about being WIFOM, but scum marv almost never does things that make him look bad. Go read basically any scum game that he has ever played. He busses players that will be a liability to him surviving, and otherwise distances himself from his teammates. So, the only way for marv not to look bad for hard-defending scum Kush is for him to plan for Kush to never get flipped. And I'm just not sure even marv is capable of that. Which leads me to the conclusion that either 1) kush is town, or 2) marv planned to have a "change of heart" and bus kush at some point. Based on marv's past games as scum, I think (1) is more likely than (2). | ||
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His response was such a non-response that it didn't change my opinion. If someone has a good reason for why BC is third party rather than vet, I would entertain that lynch as well. You do have a point about Matt, his lurking is definitely more like his scum meta. But its also possible that he really was just gone all weekend considering he wasn't posting in his other game either. And, honestly, I don't have much room to call out anyone for lurking in this game. I basically lurked the last 2 cycles because game is boring with mod-confirmed scum. | ||
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On October 09 2012 22:42 iamperfection wrote: Also Keirathi when you get a chance if you could provide a read on me it would be greatly appreciated since you are so good at reading me. Not sure if serious or just being a dick. I simultaneously caught you and was fooled using the same heuristic. I think my folly in the game I was fooled was just that you hadn't really said enough to observe a pattern. One post does not a meta fit. Anyways, I am 99% certain you are town this game, using the same heuristic I've been using. As town you are cocky, carefree, and post whatever the hell pops into your head. As scum you are careful, and withdrawn, and don't post things that could potentially make you look bad. There's such a remarkable difference between your filter this game, and your filter in GSL 2 that I'm pretty confident in my read. | ||
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On October 10 2012 04:20 Mementoss wrote: dose n e 1 else think ShiaoPi? On October 10 2012 05:00 Mementoss wrote: ##Vote: Sloosh Yo, whats up with calling out ShiaoPi, then ninja voting slOosh without even mentioning it here?? | ||
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Your only two mentions of sloosh this entire game are "sloosh is being really quiet" and "i watched sloosh night 2 and nothing happened". But now that he's set to be lynched, you vote for him without reason? | ||
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On October 10 2012 06:13 Mementoss wrote: there is most likely more than one mafia left and no one else had anything to say about shiaopi when i get more time I will dig filters So you're just blatantly sheeping for no goddamn reason the person you've been calling out as third party all day? Holy crap am I the only person that sees how weird that vote was? | ||
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On October 10 2012 06:22 kushm4sta wrote: @keir the thing is it doesn't matter how scummy he acts because the claim makes him town. No it doesn't. I certainly think he could have fake-claimed. And I know I said ostensibly that I believed his claim, but something like that is so scummy that it makes me doubt myself. | ||
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On October 10 2012 06:26 Mementoss wrote: @Keirathi, who do you think is mafia other than Sloosh? Lets name 2 people w/ some explanation. One scum at a time, please. | ||
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On October 10 2012 06:28 VisceraEyes wrote: Well let me add...illusory weight to the Kush wagon. I'm a Private Investigator and last night I received Mafia Coroner when I checked kushm4sta. N1 I was roleblocked. N2 I checked Coag and he came back as town "Concerned Citizen". Now e'erybody climb onboard the VE Failtrain of Glory(holes). I guess that makes some sense regarding your play today. ##vote kushm4sta | ||
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On October 10 2012 06:34 Mementoss wrote: So by this logic with you voting Sloosh your saying you believe my claim, but still think BC is not 3rd party? What? I really don't understand your question. I think that it is 100% possible that BC is actually a vet. Your evidence doesn't prove anything other than he lied about being medic protected. You have made it quite clear that you don't believe that, but instead of trying to convince other people, you're voting WITH THE PERSON YOU WANT TO LYNCH. | ||
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On October 11 2012 10:29 iamperfection wrote: anyone up for..... dare i say it..... some last minute shenanigans. My gut tells me that kush is town, but my head tells me that its folly to go against a claimed red check. If he flips town, we'll just have to decide if VE was lying or kush was framed. I don't remember who it was saying that there was no way a framer would frame kush, or that a cop would actually check kush, I completely disagree. Kush is *EXACTLY* the kind of person you use cop checks on. A controversial player who is hard to get a solid read on for the most part. And, by that token, the kind of person you would want to frame as scum because a cop is likely to check them (depending, of course, on how scummy your teammates are and if you need to be framing them instead). | ||
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On October 11 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote: Everyone: if you think I'm town you should unvote. It's as simple as that. I have been contributing for a while now. I have not been disruptive. My death is not a good policy lynch. My death will not net you any reds. My death will not tell you anything about VE. All it will do is waste a lynch on a very active townie. There are a lot of people who are scummier than me. Unvote me and we can decide which to lynch. I like zbo. Alternatives: sloosh, or mattchew. Both want to lynch BC with 0 explanation for why he can't be vet. It's you saying things like this that keep me from unvoting you. You're PLAYING like you're town, but you're TALKING like your life is the most important thing in the game. Townies aren't generally so...survival oriented. | ||
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On October 11 2012 12:00 kushm4sta wrote: 1 hour. Keirathi you know I'm town. Save yourself the guilt of voting for an innocent. @keirathi Looks like I'm going to get lynched. When I flip are you going to push for VE lynch? Or will it pretty much be back to square one before VE ever claimed? I'm not going to feel guilty voting for a townie with a red check. That's just the way the game works. I personally believed that you were town because of your interactions with marv, but the smart play is not to trust my gut and to go with the claimed check, because I've been pretty terribly wrong with town reads in the past (seriously, go back and look at my reads in Newbie XXII. they were roflbad). As far as pushing a VE lynch....I don't know. VE's claim timing was...weird. But its also weird that he as scum would be willing to trade himself 1-for-1 with you. No offense, but you're an easy lynch to push because half of the things you say don't make sense from a townie perspective. I don't see why scum VE would want to trade 1-for-1 with you, when their scum team was already hemorrhaging members. | ||
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DarthPunk I originally gave him a town read when he replaced into the game because of his case on me. He was absolutely right, I hadn't done anything in the game to establish myself as town, and I've been lurking pretty hard. But some key things stand out to me: 1) When the lynch actually mattered (day 4), he didn't even mention me or try to push me at all. There was a pretty long period of time before VE claimed the red check on kush. And, he even went so far as to agree with my case on slOosh. Why is he agreeing with someone who looks "really scummy to him"? 2) His reasoning for pushing kush was pretty terrible. + Show Spoiler [Sorry, this was kind of long so I spoi…] + On October 09 2012 17:28 DarthPunk wrote: You Employed WIFOM against me in order to mask your scum slips and meta. By intentionally making scum slips and employing your scum meta. It is the scummiest thing that has happened in this thread. And bvy god you should have been lynched for it days ago. It even caused ToutEstChaos to change his mind and make you his number one scum read. A confirmed town thinks you were the most likely scum. You shat all over the thread. You have barely scum hunted despite a lengthy filter. You have proven that you are aware of your meta so that is now useless. You employed Wifom to mask your scumslips and scum meta. Marv defended you before he was caught. Hapa defended you before he was caught. As soon as you became toutEstchaos' number one scum read he died. The only argument in your favor comes from a suspicious player in his own right. And is comprised of pure WIFOM and speculation. I have not voted for you so now you are lying or not reading. And the case against you is far more than you 'fucking with me' which in itself is far to simplistic an explanation. Not a single thing in that "case" demonstrated kush being scum. In fact, like I argued, based on marv's meta, the point about marv defending him actually pushed him into a town read for me. 3) He throws around the word WIFOM to discredit any opinions that he doesn't share, but he's fine using "WIFOM" arguments himself: On October 07 2012 17:33 DarthPunk wrote: The difference is that you made a weak case. And in your town meta you do not make weak cases. YOu make no cases and then you catch 2 scum at LYLO. That is just my experience though. However. Touestchaos' case was good and he clearly knows your meta better than I do. He was also clearly a better player than me. He also DIED after calling both yourself and kush out. I can Understand bout being bored as shit with the Paramedic thing. But if you don;t get your shit together along with keir and others. I will come for you. On October 07 2012 17:39 DarthPunk wrote: Yes it is WIFOM but I feel it is worth considering. I will look over your filter from LVI but it is going to take me a while. But, when I point out, with a "WIFOM" read of kush based on marv's meta: On October 09 2012 17:16 DarthPunk wrote: Man Keir. You know this is WIFOM and near useless. Even if Kush flipped this exact argument could keep marv out of hot water. The way I see it. Is that both node and Kush were targets early and any competent player at that point does not want to lose 2 scum that early . Anyway. I am not convinced by your WIFOM arguments for obvious reasons. I would ask why would town Kush set WIFOM bombs at me with the express aim of disabling my ability to read him.? Why would he troll and crap up the thread.? Why would he tunnel Viscera Eyes, and none of the players similar to him, as his entire scumhunting contribution this game? Those are all questions that need to be answered, and I think both you and I know that WIFOMing about what marv would/wouldn't do to make a read on someone is just plain silly. Why is it okay for him, but not for me? Because he's scum and just looking for reasons to discredit people. 4) Complete turnaround on kush as the lynch got closer I'm not going to quote them all here, but look at every post he made about kush. Everyone single one, until 2 hours before the lynch deadline, was him being absolutely certain that kush was scum. No doubt whatsoever. He even claimed that kush had been doing exactly the same thing that he did in LVII as scum with the "If I'm town, you'll agree that you're dumb?" thing. *THEN* there was the claimed red check that should have strengthened his read. I just don't see town DP suddenly changing his mind because of a few things that kush said. As it happened, it just felt like scum DP trying to distance himself from the lynch and buy some townie points after the flip for having a "change of heart". 5) Seems to *KNOW* that VE isn't lying about the cop claim As town, DP should have a healthy paranoia that VE was lying about the claim. Hell, I know I do. But DP insists that 100% VE can't be lying: On October 11 2012 12:15 DarthPunk wrote: VE is cop. There is no way he would trade 1 for 1 with kush. Especially after Marv and Hapa go down. This is all WIFOM of course. But I don't see VE fake claiming. (Also, note again, that he's happy to use WIFOM when it benefits him). On October 12 2012 10:29 DarthPunk wrote: We aren't lynching VE. end of story. The lesson learnt is that we don't auto lynch his red checks. But...you weren't lynching him from the red check? You were lynching him because you had a scum read on him. He's just too sure that VE can't be lying. + Show Spoiler + Not entirely relevant, but circumstantial evidence that just personally adds to my read of him being scum: talismania (who DP replaced), is known for being super lurky/disinterested as scum (and maybe even getting modreplaced?) It makes sense to me that talis rolled scum and then didn't care about the game anymore so got modkilled slOosh I still think slOosh is scum. Case for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16495401 Now, for the 5th (and probably last?) scum. Somewhere between Mattchew/ShiaoPi/VE. I would only believe its VE at this point if someone else counterclaims him though. | ||
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On October 12 2012 13:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay Tinfoil hat time. Scum had to withhold kills tonight because they reversed the flip of their coroner. Discuss. Your tinfoil hat speculation is dumb. I already told you why kush was town. | ||
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On October 12 2012 13:45 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh right, your "meta" read on marv's scum play. Pull the other one Kei. You're just fearmongering because you were wrong. I'm 99.9% sure that Kush was actually town. Using a combination of kush's own meta (scum kush would have FLIPPED-THE-FUCK-OUT), AND marv's (which is relevent, cause you know, marv actually flipped scum. Seriously go look through his games, he has no precedent for hard defending a scumbuddy who is a liability to him winning.) | ||
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On October 12 2012 14:56 DarthPunk wrote: Firstly. Calm the fuck down. Secondly. That is a weird assumption to make. It assumes there is only 1kp. It assumes that scum have a roleblocker. The fact is you said they didn't roleblock MMtoss and you have no way of knowing if they did/didn't or could/couldn't It gives the impression of additional information. First, you're jumping on something that it was very obvious what he meant. Second, VE ALREADY CLAIMED TO HAVE BEEN ROLEBLOCKED ON NIGHT 1. And Mementoss claimed to be roleblocked on...night 3? Whatever the night was that he claimed watcher. So of course he assumes the scum has a roleblocker. His point is perfectly valid if he's a townie. Scum would have known that he wasn't lying about being rolecop, and would have known that Mementoss wasn't lying about being watcher, so they could have RB'd Mementoss and got a basically guaranteed kill on the claimed Cop. However, if one or VE or Mementoss are scum, though, then that starts breaking down, obviously. | ||
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On October 12 2012 15:07 Coagulation wrote: lol dp confirmed himself town with his lack of ability to follow the most barest and basic scum capabilities in thread. So...you're trying to say you confirmed yourself as town? :o | ||
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On October 12 2012 15:15 DarthPunk wrote: And why is it so obvious if it rely's on VE being town when one of the points in your case against me was thinking VE was town? Then you come at me again for thinking that is based on him NOT being Town. I wasn't calling you scum. I saying that you calling the VE thing a "scum slip" was absolutely retarded. In fact, now that you bring it up, you were SO FUCKING SURE that VE was a cop. How is your first thought when you see VE says that suddenly "WOW he fucking scumslipped!". If you 'thought' he was town, you should have been thinking about what he said from a town perspective, in which case it should have made 100% sense to you what he was trying to say. NOW I'm calling you scum. You can't even keep your story straight. | ||
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If VE was town role cop, his check makes no sense. For someone who keeps saying "I'm trying to hunt scum!", his check certainly doesn't show it. But his attitude and reaction to BC calling him out just doesn't FEEL townie. There's just too many little "convenient" things that add up to VE being scum. 1) Red check on someone who flipped town 2) Blue check on MMToss, who shouldn't have even been checked 3) Through 4 nights, there have only been 2 roleblocks, on GUESS WHO. VE and MMToss 4) Neither VE nor MMToss were shot after their claims. Nor were either RB'd last night. Instead, BKE who had done nothing besides "be a vet with 0 thread presence" and the vig were killed, and then no one last night. None of those things individually is enough to make VE scum. But together, I'm pretty convinced. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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On October 13 2012 12:23 VisceraEyes wrote: Srs. Guys I'm a Private Investigator. No one has counterclaimed, think this through. I'm not scum. And I DO want to win. Please don't lynch me. I actually thought lack of a counterclaim was enough to keep you alive. Then someone pointed out that we don't even know that Private Investigator is a town role. I can certainly see the benefit of scum having a Role Cop. Ah, the joys of a closed setup? | ||
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You don't make any sense. | ||
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Because that's one of the the most ass-backwards things I've ever heard in a mafia game. If scum finds a town rolecop on night 1, *AND* that person is a vet, you don't leave him alive until day 5. Period. | ||
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Scum were in a bad spot after losing 2 people for "free" on consecutive games from a mechanic they couldn't control. So what do scum in a situation that's looking hopeless? Normally, I would probably trust your claim (even though this speculation you're doing is nonsense...Framer, Flip Protection, and/or RB+RoleCop combo?), but I feel like scum trying to pull a rabbit out of their hat with some bogus claims is definitely a possibility when otherwise it would just be ludicrous. (inb4 "OMG THATS WIFOM") | ||
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LOL | ||
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Furthermore, you also know as well as I do, that their goal was to shit up the thread. And everyone in their right mind did the correct thing by completely ignoring them. But you've making it out as if they were playing against their wincon, when they definitely were not. They were doing everything in their power to keep the discussion on themselves, or at the very least, not give away their teamates. Maybe it was dickish, but it certainly wasn't "wrong". | ||
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On October 13 2012 13:25 Coagulation wrote: If ve was scum instead of saying he checked toss he woulda just said he got roleblocked and this all wouldnt have happened.. just saying. So...who was roleblocked last night then? If you believe that VE is town, then he wouldn't have lied about being roleblocked night 1, right? So we "know" there is a roleblocker, but neither of the claimed blues were blocked, nor was anyone else apparently? | ||
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On October 13 2012 13:36 Coagulation wrote: Kreb is roleblocker and he didnt send in the action. Matt is the roleblocker and he didn't send in the action! No, wait...Z-Bo is roleblocker and didn't send in the action! OR coag is the roleblocker and didn't send in the action! You realize how stupid that argument is, right? | ||
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So, VE, since you seem to want to play the speculation game, I'll put on my tinfoil hat and tell you what my take on the current events is: First, Detective is a traditional town alignment cop. Maybe had some weird mechanics before the clues thing got taken out to give it some spice, but at this point its just cop. Second, Private Investigator, aka Role Cop, was given to mafia to combat the paramedics. Obviously it didn't work, but it makes sense that they would be given a way to find the role that 100% hard-counters mafia with nothing they can really do about it. Now, with those things in mind, we know that there were 2 KP less last night than expected. So...why? Well, we can't possibly know. BUT: On October 12 2012 13:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay Tinfoil hat time. Scum had to withhold kills tonight because they reversed the flip of their coroner. Discuss. You already laid the groundwork down for why. What townie in their right mind's first thought when they don't see any nightkills is "Yesterday, during the day, scum traded in their KP for the night to change Kush's flip!". What game has that EVER been an option? If you can link me to one, I'll shut-up. But, would it be that far-fetched that scum could trade in their KP for an action during the NEXT day? I find it much, much more likely that an ability like that would be proactive, rather than reactive (ie, you have to use it before the flip, not after). And then, you say this: On October 13 2012 12:36 VisceraEyes wrote: If you have to lynch me then fine - I can see not coming back from this. But without their Coroner, they're going to watch me flip exactly what I claimed. *sly grin* Check. So, there was less KP than expected. Then you laid the groundwork for a flip-change mechanic. Now, lets assume for a minute that you are scum. You used the fake kush red check to get yourself lynched today (you seem to be trying REALLY hard today to get lynched). And, since you seem to be so sure that there's a flip-change mechanic, lets just assume that there is. So, you sacrificed KP last night to change the flip on YOUR lynch today. Not kush's. Now, who benefits from you flipping Private Investigator? Mementoss and coag, who you claim to have green checks on. So: VisceraEyes, Mementoss, coagulation If that's the case, then I almost certainly believe that BC is actually third party, and not a vet. All 3 of them have been pushing his lynch at various times. God damn, this game is easy. | ||
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On October 13 2012 14:10 Z-BosoN wrote: Haha you are mr. arrogant no.2 keirathi, that's actually pretty interesting. Let's add BC instead of coag though. The only reason we *know BC is 3rd party is because of mementoss, and I'm getting a townie feel from coag. And I do agree, it does look like VE is trying to get lynched. BC also sounds strangely sure that VE's night choice was a scumslip/mistake whatever. Hmmmm... *puts conspiracy goggles on Yea, maybe BC instead of coag. If I put much stock into my speculation, though, its just too damn convenient that VE flipping PI "100% confirms" 2 people as town. | ||
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I really believe that scum would feel like they were in a rough spot after losing marv and Hapa/Node on days 2 and 3 due to a mechanic that they had absolutely zero control over. And, if they felt like they were behind, a gambit could be just the thing they needed to pull out the win. Also, DocH is one of the only hosts who I could believe would intentionally make a game "Vets" vs "Non-Vets" (aka newbs). There are just too many little coincidences here. | ||
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On October 13 2012 15:03 Coagulation wrote: if ve was scum he would of faked a check on someone more experienced and a bigger threat than kush. lets face it scum would never trade ve for kush. it would have been a fake check on someone who was pro town and a hard lynch plus deadly scum hunter not kush. kush was regarded as scummy by the entire thread. he would be an easy mislynch. theres no incentive to fake the check on him at all. If you want to humor me even a little bit, then I'll play Devil's Advocate: First off, looking at this game after night 3, who that is (was) still alive would have been a threat to them? Secondly, kush was the perfect person to use the "fake check" against. For one, it makes sense for a cop to have checked him. Also, after VE flipped town PI, no one would have questioned that there was a framer and we just got fucked by night actions. Finally, remember that, assuming my version of events is correct (yea, I know, huge assumption), that it wouldn't have worked at ALL had the townie not been lynched. If, say, VE came in claiming a red check on, say risk or slOosh or Mementoss, people would have been more likely to question VE. The fact that 99% of the thread thought kush was scummy to begin already meant people were more willing to hop on, and only question VE after the fact. He would have been 100% the person to use it on. | ||
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Yes, that is the problem. If they saved KP to change the flip today, it probably doesn't matter who we lynch. Which is unfortunate, because it means there's no way to confirm my theory without 2 flips in a row. And even I'm not sure enough of myself to guarantee 2 flips in a row. | ||
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Basically, even if I am right, I don't suspect there's anything town can/will do about it. | ||
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I 99% believe that Kush was town. Either he got framed, or you're pulling a gambit. Also, I don't believe that scum have an ability to give up KP AFTER a flip to change the flip. MAYBE they have an ability to change the NEXT flip, but afaik there's no precedent for scum having a power they can use in the day, THEN give up KP the next night. | ||
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On October 13 2012 16:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Kei think. In your theory, you're assuming that scum have the ability to change alignment of flips. Why? Because you brought it up. Never have I seen a role like that, outside of Janitor. The fact that you were so obsessed with it leads me to believe that you KNEW that that role existed. No townie would ever see Kush flip town after a red check and assume that scum had an ability to change the flip. The logical assumption is that he was framed, but you spent a ton of time arguing otherwise. | ||
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On October 13 2012 16:07 VisceraEyes wrote: The name of the role was CORONER. I mean - what do you THINK that means? Obviously the roles aren't exactly what they seem in all cases, but COME ON. Mafia Coroner was the report. Dude flips something other than the report. Does that not seem like a logical thought progression to you? What would you think? Framed or flip shenannies right? I only brought it up because there were NO kills. Tell me why scum wouldn't kill man. Tell me HOW IT'S POSSIBLE that NONE of the anti-town KP got fired off tonight. Show me one game where scum have had a day power that they could use by giving up their KP for the NEXT night, and I'll shut up. I could buy that scum could give up their KP and then the next day they could use a power. I don't buy that they can use a power in the day and give up KP the next night. AFAIK there's just no precedent for that. | ||
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At the same time, what about my perspective? I have no way of knowing if 1) kush could change his flip (I already stated many times that I don't believe kush was scum. I feel like I know marv pretty damn well, all things considered. I know how he thinks as scum, and I know he busses the fuck out of teammates who are a liability to him. Hell, even *YOU* should know that). 2) Kush was framed, or 3) You are lying. So, I've ruled out #1, which was your idea anyways. #2 feels like it SHOULD default be the right answer. I mean, #1 never even crossed my mind as a possibility. But there are just too many little things that point to #3. It all just...fits. And, even though I've convinced myself, I don't think there's a damn thing I can do about it. I will concede that there's a pretty good chance that I'm wrong and just overly paranoid. But damn if I can believe that myself. | ||
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On October 13 2012 16:34 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't know. My brain is aching. Do the right thing Kei. Go take a look at the link I posted not long ago - probably within 2 or 3 pages of the end of my filter. It's Kreb as a townie in a Newbie game. There's a GIGANTIC difference in his play this game and his play in that game. Look at the way he reasons things out in the thread as town. Tell me that guy would just put blinders on and come at me as a townie. Whether I was framed or the flip was reversed, scum's plan was always going to be to discredit me and try and get me lynched. Independent of my read of Kreb or the fact that he's been pushing me all game, that's my analysis of the situation. There's no reason to fuck with my check unless scum wanted to bank on it somehow. So, if you believe that, why are you pleading with me who's been calling you a liar for the last 4-5 hours? Wouldn't I be part of that "trying to discredit you" crowd? | ||
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I'll reread Kreb tomorrow. I remember the link you pasted. | ||
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On October 14 2012 01:59 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't understand the point of this post. My point was that in the game I linked, Kreb is very obviously town...there's no question in reading the filter that it's a townie's filter. In this game, he's hiding behind tunneling me to avoid doing anything. In the game I posted he had 4 pages by N2 - in this game by the time I posted this, he had 5 pages by D4. It's like - it's terribly damning imo. You know damn well that neither of those things are damning. Townies tunnel people all the time. And shit, I had 15 pages of filter in Aperture as town. I only have...7? this game or something. I must be scum too! Why does everything you say feel like you are trying to get lynched? I know you're not this...dumb, for lack of a softer word...all of the time. | ||
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On October 14 2012 04:07 Mattchew wrote: VE any thoughts on iamperf and my post on him? I disagree with you 99%. And yea, I was wrong about iamp in Aperture. But I was wrong based on him making 4 posts, not 7 pages of posts. Also, you're misrepresenting his "change of heart" on kush. He had been saying kush was town all game. Its pretty understandable that he hopped on the red check and then still had doubts, especially with the way kush was acting in crunch time. It was so different from every kush scum game. I want you to do a little research into iamp if you're so convinced. Read GSL 2 and Newbie XIX. Tell me if the iamperfection in this game feels like the scum iamperfection in those games. Because I just don't see it. | ||
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On October 14 2012 04:31 Mattchew wrote: also, if someone links me to a newbie game (VE you did this too WTF) for a meta read you have got to be kidding. I would say anyone under like 7 - 10 games should never be lynched on meta because there is so much room to improve and change styles Did you even read them? No, I thought not. In GSL 2 (which just ended THIS WEE), I called out iamperfection (in obs qt) as soon as day 1 ended as scum, because his posting was almost exactly the same as his newbie scum game. Maybe he changed his playstyle in the last week, but I doubt it. He has a very distinctive town meta compared to scum. Anyone who cared at all could see that. | ||
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If I ignore my conspiracy theory, then I still want to lynch DP. My earlier case combined with his reactions after the day post give me the feeling that he is scum. | ||
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Although, no lie, I would be happy with a no lynch. Fucking VE has made me paranoid as hell. | ||
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On October 14 2012 10:39 Coagulation wrote: what the fuck would a no lynch do for us. Where did the KP go? It had to go somewhere. If they had an ability they could trade KP for, then it would probably activate today. Although I guess it could be something like Delay too. I don't buy that mafia didn't send in kills or roleblock. | ||
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I already said the people I would be eilling to vote for. I have 2 hours to make up my mind on if I want to change. | ||
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On October 14 2012 10:53 iamperfection wrote: can you explain why you think a no lynch was a good idea. I already did. VE made me paranoid that scum had an ability that they could use to change the flip today. If we no-lynched, there wouldn't be a flip to change. But, I said that without reading the op again to see if it was even possible to vote no-lynch. | ||
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On October 14 2012 10:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote: The only role in the game that could feasibly change a lynch flip was likely the coroner. Given that it is extremely unlikely scum had more then 1 of that role, I think we should be able to trust lynches at this point. Coroner hasn't flipped though? | ||
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I don't give a fuck what VE's "check" was. Because Kush flipped town. We KNOW that something is wrong. There are too many unexplainable things, and no way to verify any of them. My gut tells me that Kush was town. He flipped town. So, from my perspective, either one of two things happened: 1) Kush was framed or 2) VE is lying. | ||
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On October 14 2012 11:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote: If you believe VE at all (you seem to via you believe mafia has an ability that fucks with flips) then kush would have been said role and self used. The only reason anyone has ever thought that coroner could change a flip was because VE FUCKING SUGGESTED IT. In my experience, people only speculate about roles that they should have no fucking clue about when they actually have some information about said role. | ||
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1) There was no KP last night 2) There were no roleblocks last night 3) Mementoss and VE are the only claimed blues (well, I guess BC too), yet neither of them were killed or RB'd 4) Through 4 nights, the only two people who have claimed RB are VE and Mementoss 5) What the fuck a detective is, if VE is a town Role Cop. 6) Kush flipping VT after a VE checked him as a Mafia Coroner Too many fucking "coincidences" | ||
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So, you believe that mafia coroner can change flips, yes?. So, what if Private Investigator is a mafia role? Then the mafia coroner changes VE's flip to town Private Investigator if we lynch him today. That "confirms" Mementoss as town Medical Examiner (also, hint: go look up the definition for Medical Examiner vs Coroner). Anyways, I'm tired of fucking arguing this. Maybe I'm just super paranoid. If I end up being right, then I'm going to rage in the post game. Damnit, I don't even know what to do now. If I completely ignore the whole VE thing and take him at his word, then my biggest read before all that happened was DP. I still think my case has merit, especially when you throw in DP's reactions in the early part of the day. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16529041 ##Vote: DarthPunk | ||
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On October 14 2012 19:34 Kreb wrote: The only way that would be true is if Kush was the extra killer himself. Him alone giving mafia 1KP per night. Otherwise I dont see how it can explain all the other 2NK-nights. Scum KP is generally Mafia/2. So if there's only 2 mafia left, they would only have 1 KP. | ||
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Makes zero sense. Maybe it is actually a town RB'er. | ||
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That's a dumb assumption. Scum would rather RB and kill a non-factor in Matt than the two claimed blues? I don't buy it. | ||
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But why the hell would they kill him? There are 2 fucking claimed blues. It makes literally zero sense that they would RB and kill him in the same night. Of course, I'm assuming that scum isn't absolutely retarded. The whole sequence of events is like nothing I've ever seen from a scumteam before, which is why I'm so damn paranoid. | ||
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GL town. | ||
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GG. Fuck me sideways. E: <3 DP, too bad I couldn't get anyone else to follow me onto you | ||
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Never make someone fucking edit information that they've already shared. It was so stupid that I read what Mementoss said about the watcher role, but most people in the thread didn't see it before it got editted. Yea, I understand you didn't want him to do it, but once the cat is out of the bag, making him edit it and only select people having that information is beyond terrible. | ||
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On October 18 2012 14:13 Risen wrote: Alrighty I'll be civil. You guys did fantastic, but would you mind responding to my most recent post? And thanks for hosting. Paramedic has to be the most fun role I've ever gotten Edit: Quoting since my post went to the next page T_T I mean really, that's all it comes down to. You almost have to deliberately not read the thread to lynch someone without a counterclaim. BC had already claimed Lucky. You would have "had" to flip one of them. And there's no guarantee there isn't two anyways. Plus, besides Lucky and Godfather, nothing in the role list says "OMG I'm town" or "OMG I'm mafia!". Mafia could just claim their real role but color it blue, and on one would ever counter claim them. So, by your reckoning, they are confirmed town. | ||
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On October 18 2012 14:17 Z-BosoN wrote: What you talking about, I tried lynching DP with all my might, but no one would listen EDIT: you = keir You still voted Matt over him | ||
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On October 18 2012 14:18 Risen wrote: A scum cop role? I wouldn't even consider it. Edit: I don't remember 100%, but I'm pretty sure Kreb had solid breadcrumbs. Scum Role Cop, is, IMO, more common than town role cop. And especially more common than a town Role+Alignment Cop. Plus, it would make sense for scum to have a way to counter the extremely terrible paramedic role. Also: DETECTIVE was a scum role. All he would have had to do was say "Hey, I'm a Detective. I checked Mementoss last night and he was green." etc etc. No one would have counterclaimed him, and you would have made him confirmed town. Get off your damn high horse. | ||
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On October 18 2012 14:28 Z-BosoN wrote: Haha, I'll quote this sad sad post again: I basically gave up when despite me writing 2 full cases, making extensive posts on him, and being insistent as fuck that he was scum, nobody seemed to find him scummy, not even you (you did so after I gave up, basically). So I just figured I was making a bad read and moved on Honestly it felt like you guys were just yelling back and forth at each other. Neither of you were convincing. I decided DP was scum because of the reasons he was pushing Kush the night after Hapa died, but I was more sure of slOosh. Then during the kush wagon and end of the night, I decided that he was even scummier than slOosh so I started pushing him. Then I brainfucked myself and was terrible. | ||
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On October 18 2012 14:33 Risen wrote: Argument would not have been easy. It's kind of like a red cop check after the cop has flipped and been confirmed a cop. You have to lynch the red check, no matter what, imo. I actually agree with Risen here. The smart move is to lynch the red check anyways, no matter what the person says or does. | ||
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On October 18 2012 14:44 BroodKingEXE wrote: Wow SloOsh, didnt move that one night mementoss watched. Pretty gosu scum desicion making. The NKs were actually amazing early game by scum, compared to blue actions. Mementoss was a watcher, not a tracker. | ||
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Primed: Keirathi. So sad ( | ||
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On October 18 2012 15:00 VisceraEyes wrote: I know my play was atrocious at the end. Look at it from my perspective: I'm a cop you idiot. I had a check and it flipped wrong. OBVIOUSLY my first response is going to be "WHY?!?!?" I shouldn't have maybe brought that into the thread, but I expected a little help from my "confirmed town" friends. And when that didn't come, I gave fuck up. Sue me. I'm sorry I failed. You were setting him up to flip wrong BEFORE HE FLIPPED. How does that even make any sense? | ||
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I'm sure it would get boring eventually, but my mindset during that entire game was that I WAS a townie. I think a key thing, though, is that I naturally filter all of my thoughts so that they intentionally (at least attempt to) sound like I'm town. Even as town, I try my damnedest not to say dumb things. So, when I rolled scum, I just kept playing like that. Sure, small sample size, but it worked well for me :o E: Basically what I'm saying is that if you have to differentiate your mindset, you're already doing it wrong, IMO. | ||
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